Why Hogan's swing was so great.

[lv_2_hack]

[quote name='Shaggie' timestamp='1381687332' post='7995487']
I am talking about his hands not forearms
There are many videos of hogans follow through where his hands are rolled over
[/quote]

Can you show me how someone can roll his hands without the forearms rolling as well?

[dairic]

Ben hogan like any other golfer played all kinds of shots. Here he's hitting what looks like a knockdown type shot. Notice the held off release and how he keeps his angles intact for much longer. i.e. not releasing.

Compare that to the sequence and video I posted above to see what releasing his angles on a full shot looks like. On a full shot his right wrist is bowed, the left wrist cupped, and the right hand is above the left hand when he gets past 3 o'clock which means somethings are rolling. The release is full and complete, and momentum is uninterrupted. The notion that he never released the cup in his right wrist in his standard swing or that his pivot just dragged his hands and arms through the hitting area is completely and utterly false.


[attachment=1911733:knockdown.gif]

[Hoganstriker]

He stuck it in the ground there and took a beaver pelt for a divot so it looks held off. In reality he had a reverse move. Right wrist straightened(released) yep but NOTHING was rolling in the shut direction at all. He released fully yes but that doesn't mean he was rolling the toe of the club the way you seem to think. Hogan practically(not quite) invented the little reverse cup under release move.
Johnny Miller knows.
[url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LTd8UAG1cn8"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LTd8UAG1cn8[/url]

[chrisgilly09]

Lol that was done by pivot; his DS thoughts were...turn hips and hit hard with both hands. If that's Johnny's take then he doesn't know

See what you did Monte? Lol

[dairic]

[quote name='Hoganstriker' timestamp='1381720640' post='7997737']
He stuck it in the ground there and took a beaver pelt for a divot so it looks held off. In reality he had a reverse move. Right wrist straightened(released) yep but NOTHING was rolling in the shut direction at all. He released fully yes but that doesn't mean he was rolling the toe of the club the way you seem to think. Hogan practically(not quite) invented the little reverse cup under release move.
Johnny Miller knows.
[media=]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LTd8UAG1cn8[/media]
[/quote]

I can't think of how I could agree with Johnny.

Have a look at this. As shut as it gets. Back of left hand and club face pointing towards the ground.

On a side note: Has anybody else noticed how much stuff he often seems to carry in his pockets?

[attachment=1911783:hogan_top of follow through.jpg]

[Hoganstriker]

Monte did start this it's his fault good point. Nonetheless drop the clubhead under like Hogan and hit hard with both hands and watch the torque you created shut the face down. you wanna add more torque in the wrong direction? Pivot force is a nice try by some in the golfing world the problem is that force is not in the correct direction in relation to the shaft.
It's not like this is something new. It's just Hogan fanatics come up with all sorts of weird pet theories to explain whats really quite simple. Like the pivot will freeze the torques in the shaft-sorry it can't it can't only torque opposite can do that.
Johnny was right on the money.

[Hoganstriker]

Hogan tried to change his equipment to fight the torque and it helped but he finally figured out just torque it the opposite way problem mitigated.
Hogan went oppo and a lot of good players do the same thing now.
I am sure all the Hogan fanatics from the Heroes locale will all come out now so I am done here. Sometimes you have to look through the trees and see a forest it ain't that complicated.
Its called shaft torque and it was not helping Hogan sometimes.

[chrisgilly09]

Well Dairic he did have big hands for 5'7" so...you better hope that it's just stuff in his pockets lol

Yep, early hip turn + layoff keeps face open, no need for those hold off crop circle undercut moves, those have been discussed for years here and do not hold up under video evidence

[dairic]

[quote name='chrisgilly09' timestamp='1381722858' post='7997913']
Well Dairic he did have big hands for 5'7" so...you better hope that it's just stuff in his pockets lol

Yep, early hip turn + layoff keeps face open, no need for those hold off crop circle undercut moves, those have been discussed for years here and do not hold up under video evidence
[/quote]

Exactly, open face and create range of motion in the backswing and transition, and then give'er through impact. Happens to be 100% consistent with every freaking thing he's ever written about his own swing. Go figure.

[lv_2_hack]

Dairic I'm confused, who are you arguing against?

If it's me I definitely don't believe that hogan held off the release or that his pivot drug the arms through.

I just don't agree with what shaggie is describing.

[dairic]

[quote name='lv_2_hack' timestamp='1381724834' post='7998039']
Dairic I'm confused, who are you arguing against?

If it's me I definitely don't believe that hogan held off the release or that his pivot drug the arms through.

I just don't agree with what shaggie is describing.
[/quote]

Not really arguing with anyone. Some were implying that he held off the release so I thought I'de put in my 2 cents worth.

What's with the Dinosaur in shorts btw?

[notsohard]

[quote name='dairic' timestamp='1381726235' post='7998115']
[quote name='lv_2_hack' timestamp='1381724834' post='7998039']
Dairic I'm confused, who are you arguing against?

If it's me I definitely don't believe that hogan held off the release or that his pivot drug the arms through.

I just don't agree with what shaggie is describing.
[/quote]

Not really arguing with anyone. Some were implying that he held off the release so I thought I'de put in my 2 cents worth.
[/quote]

you are correct, Hogan did not hold off on the release, but that is different to rolling the hands or forearms or what ever rolling theory they invent..
Dairic, look at the 5th and 6th frame of that image you posted and tell me where his hands are relative to his sternum--yes, its a release, but a "roll"?

[eightiron]

[quote name='chrisgilly09' timestamp='1381722858' post='7997913']
Well Dairic he did have big hands for 5'7" so...you better hope that it's just stuff in his pockets lol

Yep, early hip turn + layoff keeps face open, no need for those hold off crop circle undercut moves, those have been discussed for years here and do not hold up under video evidence
[/quote]

Yeah the reverse crop circle was reinvented Leadbetter gibberish ! But we gotta blame fats for passing along this one for hold off sliders for scoring clubs and never for anything above a 6 iron . In fact hogan had a more hold off move pre 1947 , just pull some driver sequences and put them up side by side , Jeffy did a good one on this on his forum

[lv_2_hack]

[quote name='dairic' timestamp='1381726235' post='7998115']
[quote name='lv_2_hack' timestamp='1381724834' post='7998039']
Dairic I'm confused, who are you arguing against?

If it's me I definitely don't believe that hogan held off the release or that his pivot drug the arms through.

I just don't agree with what shaggie is describing.
[/quote]

Not really arguing with anyone. Some were implying that he held off the release so I thought I'de put in my 2 cents worth.

What's with the Dinosaur in shorts btw?
[/quote]

Monte making fun of me in my biomechanics thread. So I figure I'd just roll with it. :-)

[Fort Worth Pro]

A full, free release that is on plane and in synch with the pivot. His arms are not rolling over through impact but they do crossover just past waist high in the follow through. It's not a mickelson or Luke Donald stall/sling release and it sure as heck isn't held off. Is it handsy? Not by most standards because all the motion is happening in synch. The toe of the club doesn't catch the heal until it disappears from view in the DTL view.

[JBOMB808]

Depending on the type of shot will best describe the type of release used. A fade will have an extended held off finish that keeps the clubface square to the swing arc. A draw will have a release that has a more right hand-lifting in the follow-through. Sort of like tossing a ball underhand and the right hand bows in the release. The difference is what Hogan illustrates in Life magazine as his secret being the cupped left wrist accompanied by a weak grip. His swing action, however, is where a lot of players get lost. Only a player that has a draw for a stock shot with a weak grip/flat(neutral) wrist will benefit from his secret as he also mentions in the magazine article.

[JPGolf FL]

[quote name='Fort Worth Pro' timestamp='1381762354' post='7999111']
A full, free release that is on plane and in synch with the pivot. His arms are not rolling over through impact but they do crossover just past waist high in the follow through. It's not a mickelson or Luke Donald stall/sling release and it sure as heck isn't held off. Is it handsy? Not by most standards because all the motion is happening in synch. The toe of the club doesn't catch the heal until it disappears from view in the DTL view.
[/quote]
^this..... It's only handsy if the pivot isnt working in sync. Handsy happens when the pivot is leading and has to slow down to let the hands carch up. When the pivot is in sync with the hands it LOOKS like the hands are doing nothing. Nothing could be more wrong about hogan.

[mpluis]

When you walk or run your arms swing around the body pivot point, this balance of forces let you walk in a straight line with optimal energy usage,
the same is with the golf or baseball swing, because of the centrifugal forces created by the weight of the tool your body is using, the pivot point is
crucial to be at the center of the pivot point, so steel weight at the end of the tool traveling at 100mph will have a massive pulling force so you need to lay the plane and control tempo so your body can balance the pivot point to the center.

[mpluis]

So, how to control this pivot point?

Mr Hogan had an extra spike in the pivot point of the back leg (feet ball), the counter forces applied to this point will counter react and move the pivot
point to the center, and also laying the club in the same plane of the centrifugal force is the other balance force.

[mpluis]

The secret is on the dirt!!!!! the center of you is always the same as the center of the planet and the golf ball!

[Hoganstriker]

Wow that was interesting...
Not many golfers can lay it off like Hogan. Many can swing flat but I have seen maybe one or two that do the flat swing the way he did. A lot of copycats pin their right elbow and swing flat thats totally not him at all.
His clubhead was way below his call it hands plane lets say. IMO he was taking advantage of shaft torque (or it was taking advantage of him early on!)
The following is science on the matter from Sasho's site:
[color=#333333]Research indicates that the motion of the golf club is not planar and that the plane traced out by the club is different than that of the golfer’s hands. Sasho MacKenzie, PhD, the Department of Human Kinetics, St. Francis Xavier University found that the positioning of the club relative to the plane traced out by the lead hand of the golfer can have a meaningful effect on the golfer’s ability to square the clubface for impact. Positioning the club below the golfer’s swing plane, early in the downswing, will facilitate the squaring of the clubface for impact[/color]

[color=#333333]Thats science. That also does not mean if you swing flat you get that effect-it's the relationship between the hands and clubhead/face position that make all the difference. You can be steep and have this effect massively just as you can be flat and have the opposite effect. So Hogan was more laid off than anybody so imo he had the greatest amount of this effect taking place in his swing and this is why he hooked.[/color][color=#333333]Everything else he did was a series of efforts to fight the physics of the way he learned to swing in the caddy yard (rope hook.)[/color]
[color=#333333]Finally at some point he cured himself of hooking. Bully for him.[/color][color=#333333]Theres no magic secret or anything really great to be found by copying him unless you grew up as a caddy learning to throw everything you have into shots with a low hook so you don't have to clean up the balls at the end of the day. Swing your swing. Enough already with people saying things like Hogans thought was to fire hips and hit hard with hands. What kind of a person would purport to know what was in someones mind posthumously? It's ridiculous. He was real flat and laid off and it caused him to fight a hook and he worked harder than anybody and was pretty much totally obsessed and he succeeded. Part of that was learning to fully release without applying ccw torque with his hands. Game set match and story over.[/color]

[chrisgilly09]

Guess you're the only knowledgeable poster here. In fact, I'm not sure why anyone would argue any opinion other than yours, because of your vast knowledge of someone who has been dead since 1997 if memory serves. I'm curious what makes you that authority...but I digress

Anyway, I've read some of sasho's stuff and agree with what you said regarding the layoff. When he weakened his grip it changed his ball flight and with the layoff it's nearly impossible to pull the ball, push fade stuff. But you knew that

[mpluis]

Laying the club at the top of the back swing is crucial because unlike the first part of the swing (going up) that gravity is greater force, on the
down swing, centrifugal force overtakes gravity force
[media=]http://youtu.be/cTuTrpWCZhU[/media]

So laying up the club prevents the rotation of your body "throwing" this huge centrifugal force outside the line.

In this video Hogan says: the most important thing in the golf swing is the lower body (keeping the pivot point at a specific point)....at the top of the swing
you move the lower boby (he is saying that he puts pressure the that pivot point of the right leg)
http://youtu.be/QL_6M_xZvq0

Of course because we are swinging around a fixed pivot point the natural reaction of the ball is to fly tilted to this fixed pivot point (draw) so the thumb
of your right hand (that is attached to the top tendon) as to have some tension on it to prevent the rotation to early of the right arm.

[mpluis]

http://youtu.be/NtbWcobBp3k

[mpluis]

http://youtu.be/ODCzUcP6GLk

[Hoganstriker]

Chrisgilly,
I have no authority on the subject in the grand scheme of things. I just have strong opinions. No harm no foul. It's the internet.
Its pretty cool how physics influences things in golf and I do not claim expertise just interest on my part. I really think Sasho is so right about that and I think it means swing flat one way and you can't go left do it the opposite way and you can't go right.
Ok thats it I am not gonna post about Hogan anymore thats so 3 years ago lol.
Have a nice day.

[Jobu]

[quote name='dairic' timestamp='1381722130' post='7997855']
[quote name='Hoganstriker' timestamp='1381720640' post='7997737']
He stuck it in the ground there and took a beaver pelt for a divot so it looks held off. In reality he had a reverse move. Right wrist straightened(released) yep but NOTHING was rolling in the shut direction at all. He released fully yes but that doesn't mean he was rolling the toe of the club the way you seem to think. Hogan practically(not quite) invented the little reverse cup under release move.
Johnny Miller knows.
[media=]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LTd8UAG1cn8[/media]
[/quote]

I can't think of how I could agree with Johnny.

Have a look at this. As shut as it gets. Back of left hand and club face pointing towards the ground.

On a side note: Has anybody else noticed how much stuff he often seems to carry in his pockets?

[attachment=1911783:hogan_top of follow through.jpg]
[/quote]
look again. that club is only shut because his left arm is folding, the exact opposite of the backswing. His hands never "flipped." From the golf ball's perspective, every putter flips.

Also, Tom Bertrand is clueless.

[dairic]

[quote name='Jobu' timestamp='1381816518' post='8003371']
[quote name='dairic' timestamp='1381722130' post='7997855']
[quote name='Hoganstriker' timestamp='1381720640' post='7997737']
He stuck it in the ground there and took a beaver pelt for a divot so it looks held off. In reality he had a reverse move. Right wrist straightened(released) yep but NOTHING was rolling in the shut direction at all. He released fully yes but that doesn't mean he was rolling the toe of the club the way you seem to think. Hogan practically(not quite) invented the little reverse cup under release move.
Johnny Miller knows.
[media=]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LTd8UAG1cn8[/media]
[/quote]

I can't think of how I could agree with Johnny.

Have a look at this. As shut as it gets. Back of left hand and club face pointing towards the ground.

On a side note: Has anybody else noticed how much stuff he often seems to carry in his pockets?

[attachment=1911783:hogan_top of follow through.jpg]
[/quote]
look again. that club is only shut because his left arm is folding, the exact opposite of the backswing. His hands never "flipped." From the golf ball's perspective, every putter flips.

Also, Tom Bertrand is clueless.
[/quote]

For whatever reason the face shut, the point is that it got shut. This was in response to Hoganstriker saying that "nothing was rolling in the shut direction at all" because of Johnny's "little reverse cup under release move" whatever that is. As you said, the exact opposite of the backswing; from wide open in the backswing to shut in the follow through relative to the swing plane.

[Shaggie]

I could only imagine how excited Hogan must have been to have that swing thought that night in 1946 and to have it completely change his game and his life.

[Paul E]

[quote name='Shaggie' timestamp='1381939453' post='8010439']
I could only imagine how excited Hogan must have been to have that swing thought that night in 1946 and to have it completely change his game and his life.
[/quote]

And he said the more he did it the better it got. He couldn't overdo it. Talk about a holy grail, fearless golf. So long, terror of the field mice.