Changing Lie Angle?

[Kennyyoli]

I just bought a set of Speedblades that were "ordered from the factory" at +1/2" shaft length and 2 degrees upright. My question is, can these irons be bent an addition 1 degree to end up at 3 degrees upright?

Thanks in advance for the info. I am a newbie member and love the forums!

[taylorx300]

yes they can - possibly another 2 degrees either direction.

[BrianL99]

[quote name='Kennyyoli' timestamp='1389903967' post='8472885']
I just bought a set of Speedblades that were "ordered from the factory" at +1/2" shaft length and 2 degrees upright. My question is, can these irons be bent an addition 1 degree to end up at 3 degrees upright?
Thanks in advance for the info. I am a newbie member and love the forums!
[/quote]

If they're +1/2", they are probably already an "effective 3* up".

[Kennyyoli]

Wow, so I may just hit these as they are. I am 6'4" and have played with stock length and lie clubs since I began playing. I was amazed at how much more consistent I was hitting shots (in the golf shop electronic range) when I had a longer club with an upright lie angle. The person who put me in there recommended I get irons +1/2" and 3 degrees upright, based on some sole tape and some demo clubs I hit. I think I will take these out when I get them, and see how I hit them. I was just concerned if I'd be able to get another degree out of them if I did need 3 degrees upright.
Thanks for the info!

[RocketballzTP]

Try them out first. SpeedBlades are pretty easy to bend compared to many other cast clubs due to the slot on the hosel.

[ohioglfr]

I'm 6'3", so initially, I evaluated my club lie and length base on Ping's sizing chart (green dot). One of the best investments I've made is a lie board, though. Using that board, I discovered my clubs were still not upright enough. I'm playing my mid-irons (6-7) at 3 deg. up, and scoring clubs (8-LW) AT 2.5 deg. up. Hybrids replaced the long irons.
Hosels do occasionally crack when bending. I've not seen it myself. It's worth the risk, and individual heads aren't so expensive to replace.

[Colej]

[quote name='Kennyyoli' timestamp='1389903967' post='8472885']
I just bought a set of Speedblades that were "ordered from the factory" at +1/2" shaft length and 2 degrees upright. My question is, can these irons be bent an addition 1 degree to end up at 3 degrees upright?
Thanks in advance for the info. I am a newbie member and love the forums!
[/quote]

The best way to check your lie angle is with a sharpie. Draw a straight line on the ball and set it up horizontal to the ground. The line will transfer to the face of the club. If the line is not straight up and down than your lie angle needs adjusted.

[BrianL99]

[quote name='Colej' timestamp='1390655239' post='8528741']
[quote name='Kennyyoli' timestamp='1389903967' post='8472885']
I just bought a set of Speedblades that were "ordered from the factory" at +1/2" shaft length and 2 degrees upright. My question is, can these irons be bent an addition 1 degree to end up at 3 degrees upright?
Thanks in advance for the info. I am a newbie member and love the forums!
[/quote]

The best way to check your lie angle is with a sharpie. Draw a straight line on the ball and set it up horizontal to the ground. The line will transfer to the face of the club. If the line is not straight up and down than your lie angle needs adjusted.
[/quote]

Vertical to the ground.

[golf215]

[quote name='Kennyyoli' timestamp='1390178251' post='8491845']
Wow, so I may just hit these as they are. I am 6'4" and have played with stock length and lie clubs since I began playing. I was amazed at how much more consistent I was hitting shots (in the golf shop electronic range) when I had a longer club with an upright lie angle. The person who put me in there recommended I get irons +1/2" and 3 degrees upright, based on some sole tape and some demo clubs I hit. I think I will take these out when I get them, and see how I hit them. I was just concerned if I'd be able to get another degree out of them if I did need 3 degrees upright.
Thanks for the info!
[/quote]

Where is the ball going? Forget the lie board, it's only part of the puzzle. If you are drawing the ball enough (or the way you want) then don't make a change. If you're losing the ball right of your intent then you need to go more upright.

The exception to this rule is if you are over the top.


[quote name='ohioglfr' timestamp='1390517317' post='8519151']
I'm 6'3", so initially, I evaluated my club lie and length base on Ping's sizing chart (green dot). One of the best investments I've made is a lie board, though. Using that board, I discovered my clubs were still not upright enough. I'm playing my mid-irons (6-7) at 3 deg. up, and scoring clubs (8-LW) AT 2.5 deg. up. Hybrids replaced the long irons.[/quote]

Sounds good but also keep in mind you will mark on the toe with a lie board if you are over the top. If you're over the top, you should revert to your static measurement, use the PING color code chart.

Same rules as above. Where is the ball going? Too far left? Then you went too upright. Too far right? Then you can go more upright.


[quote]
Hosels do occasionally crack when bending. I've not seen it myself. It's worth the risk, and individual heads aren't so expensive to replace.
[/quote]

Not only do they crack but they bend back by themselves. Sadly there are no cast irons that can be bent and will reliably stay there... unless it's PING bending them at the factory. PING smashes the metal with a mallet to retrain the metal. Anyone who tells you they can bend it and it'll stay is really just wasting your time and money.

[BrianL99]

[quote name='golf215' timestamp='1391016734' post='8558543']
Sadly there are no cast irons that can be bent and will reliably stay there... unless it's PING bending them at the factory. PING smashes the metal with a mallet to retrain the metal. Anyone who tells you they can bend it and it'll stay is really just wasting your time and money.
[/quote]

That's simply wrong. Both cast and forged clubs can be bent and they'll retain their new lie until something changes it.

There's no such thing as "memory" in a clubhead ... unless someone decided to make golf clubs from "Shape Memory Alloy" ([url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shape-memory_alloy"]http://en.wikipedia....pe-memory_alloy[/url]).

[url="http://www.mitchellgolf.com/news/bending-golf-clubs-facts-fallacies/"]http://www.mitchellg...acts-fallacies/[/url]

[url="http://www.equip2golf.com/clubmaking/clubmaking_frameset.html?jackson_articles/bending_clubs.html~clubmaking"]http://www.equip2gol...html~clubmaking[/url]

[golf215]

[quote name='BrianL99' timestamp='1391032460' post='8560238']

That's simply wrong. Both cast and forged clubs can be bent and they'll retain their new lie until something changes it.

There's no such thing as "memory" in a clubhead ... unless someone decided to make golf clubs from "Shape Memory Alloy" ([url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shape-memory_alloy"]http://en.wikipedia....pe-memory_alloy[/url]).

[url="http://www.mitchellgolf.com/news/bending-golf-clubs-facts-fallacies/"]http://www.mitchellg...acts-fallacies/[/url]

[url="http://www.equip2golf.com/clubmaking/clubmaking_frameset.html?jackson_articles/bending_clubs.html~clubmaking"]http://www.equip2gol...html~clubmaking[/url]
[/quote]

I've heard these arguments before. I've searched for a corroborating sources outside of folks who stand to profit from telling this version of the story and have a hard time doing so. Mitchell makes great equipment and they gladly sell it to anyone needing to bend their irons. They profit from people bending. So does every golf shop that says, sure I'll bend it. They don't need to be concerned if it bends back, that's another opportunity to bend!

I have been to PING, I have watched the metal smashing process created by Karsten as a means of ensuring the metal doesn't bend back. As you probably know he's the first person to investment cast an iron and had a background in engineering. He was known for many innovations, and I can't recall any others that would've been viewed as pointless wastes of time.

I have checked cast iron sets that were bent in multiple situations. At least 5 or 6 sets that I've had the chance to check after some time had passed from their initial bend and I found many clubs revert back to their stock spec. I have literally watched the metal bend back seconds after being bent. And then there's the snapping, it doesn't happen often but they crack.

The casting process is used in part because it provides an extremely strong end product. They're designed to resist bending, they are cast so they don't bend. They must stand up to constant pressure.

One of your links admitted that this is still a debated issue, and as a risk averse person I choose to be safe.

I will set up a scientific test sometime soon to help put this controversy to rest (at least for me). I'll grab some oddball cast clubs, bend them, and check them over time. Unless of course someone else can find a scientific test that has already been completed.

[golf215]

Just to follow up on this interesting difference in opinion. I noticed the PING tour van video describes the mallet banging process I talked about. In it you hear the PING tour rep talk about this mallet being used because "metal has a memory." For those unfamiliar, it was Karsten Solheim who was the first person to investment cast a golf club. His experience and understanding of engineering have been the foundation of PING principles ever since.

[url="http://youtu.be/8SF2vVbgP6Y?t=6m54s"]http://youtu.be/8SF2vVbgP6Y?t=6m54s[/url]

[golf215]

I should mention I also communicated this "debate" with the rest of my staff and custom shop coworkers. Everyone is in agreement that it's not ideal to bend cast clubs. We all feel that it's much more acceptable in cases of softer metal, but all of us fear the bend back. Our most experienced club repair technician who has about 50 years in golf club making and repair says that it is not worth the risk and likelihood of the club bending back for the potential gain. He has experience with the metal bending back. Our overwhelming concern is that when bending cast irons, if the metal bends back it doesn't do so in a connected manner. That is to say that your 5 iron might bend back instantly and your 6 iron might stay 2 degrees upright for 6 months. Since lie angle affects ball flight if your lie angle is off, at least your miss will be consistently in the same place. If your lie is off by 2 degrees, Titleist robot testing informs us that the ball will be 20' off it's target line from 165 yards. If your club is too flat for you the ball will be right, if it's too upright the ball will be left. But unless you hit the ground first, you can expect the improper lie angle to produce a reliably expected result. In other words if you need to bend your clubs 3 degrees upright, the ball will be 30 feet right of your intent on a 165 yard shot. You can account for this 10 yard fade by aiming 10 yards left of target.

We prefer a player do that, then run the risk of breaking a club, or having a set that becomes unmatched because the clubs bend back on their own timeline.
We want to run a new scientific test in our store but currently our mitchell machine is not reading accurately enough. We are awaiting a new digital machine to come at some point this year. I promise to create a proper scientific test when a more trusty machine is available. I'll bend 5-10 heads varying amounts and then recheck their angles on a weekly basis and chart the results.

[Socrates]

[quote name='golf215' timestamp='1391367640' post='8584574']
Since lie angle affects ball flight if your lie angle is off, at least your miss will be consistently in the same place. If your lie is off by 2 degrees, Titleist robot testing informs us that the ball will be 20' off it's target line from 165 yards. If your club is too flat for you the ball will be right, if it's too upright the ball will be left. But unless you hit the ground first, you can expect the improper lie angle to produce a reliably expected result. In other words if you need to bend your clubs 3 degrees upright, the ball will be 30 feet right of your intent on a 165 yard shot. You can account for this 10 yard fade by aiming 10 yards left of target.

We prefer a player do that, then run the risk of breaking a club, or having a set that becomes unmatched because the clubs bend back on their own timeline.
[/quote]

You were trying to making some valid arguments that I personally don't agree with ([url="http://www.golfwrx.com/forums/topic/792773-iron-lie-angle-adjustment/page__p__6434853__hl__+memory#entry6434853"]also Tom Wishon[/url]) but then you went right off the rails with the above statement. Any credibility you were trying to build went right out the window with that statement. Surely you can't be serious?

In my 20+ years in the business, I have likely bent about 10,000 clubs (give or take a few) and most of them cast. I have never experienced any club magically returning to its pre-bent condition on its own accord. I can appreciate what you think you see or believe in this regard, but I think you are mistaken. I look forward to your scientific testing and the data contained therein.

[golf215]

[quote name='Socrates' timestamp='1391382884' post='8586154']
[quote name='golf215' timestamp='1391367640' post='8584574']
Since lie angle affects ball flight if your lie angle is off, at least your miss will be consistently in the same place. If your lie is off by 2 degrees, Titleist robot testing informs us that the ball will be 20' off it's target line from 165 yards. If your club is too flat for you the ball will be right, if it's too upright the ball will be left. But unless you hit the ground first, you can expect the improper lie angle to produce a reliably expected result. In other words if you need to bend your clubs 3 degrees upright, the ball will be 30 feet right of your intent on a 165 yard shot. You can account for this 10 yard fade by aiming 10 yards left of target.

We prefer a player do that, then run the risk of breaking a club, or having a set that becomes unmatched because the clubs bend back on their own timeline.
[/quote]

You were trying to making some valid arguments that I personally don't agree with ([url="http://www.golfwrx.com/forums/topic/792773-iron-lie-angle-adjustment/page__p__6434853__hl__+memory#entry6434853"]also Tom Wishon[/url]) but then you went right off the rails with the above statement. Any credibility you were trying to build went right out the window with that statement. Surely you can't be serious?

In my 20+ years in the business, I have likely bent about 10,000 clubs (give or take a few) and most of them cast. I have never experienced any club magically returning to its pre-bent condition on its own accord. I can appreciate what you think you see or believe in this regard, but I think you are mistaken. I look forward to your scientific testing and the data contained therein.
[/quote]

Well yes of course I was serious, that's the debate here. Do cast clubs bend back or not?

The company that brought the casting process to golf clubs (PING) says, yes it does.
The company that sells lie angle machines, and people who charge for lie angle bending say, it doesn't. (my store as an exception)

I look forward to that test too, and if anyone has a great digital loft/lie machine please feel free to run your own test while I await a new machine.

[Upgrayedd]

I have had irons adjusted professionally on a stand and have been very happy with the results. I have hit some with a 5# sledge myself. After watching that video I won't be sending any irons to ping for adjustment, that's for sure.

[Socrates]

[quote name='Upgrayedd' timestamp='1391394104' post='8587226']
I have had irons adjusted professionally on a stand and have been very happy with the results. I have hit some with a 5# sledge myself. After watching that video I won't be sending any irons to ping for adjustment, that's for sure.
[/quote]
Actually if I had the ability to lock in the hosel like Ping does, I would be using that method all the time. The anchor system they use is crazy stable. I know I could just as accurate and there wouldn't be a risk of bend marks on the club. But you need to have that rock solid base and perfect hosel clamp system.

[Upgrayedd]

[quote name='Socrates' timestamp='1391404160' post='8588340']
[quote name='Upgrayedd' timestamp='1391394104' post='8587226']
I have had irons adjusted professionally on a stand and have been very happy with the results. I have hit some with a 5# sledge myself. After watching that video I won't be sending any irons to ping for adjustment, that's for sure.
[/quote]
Actually if I had the ability to lock in the hosel like Ping does, I would be using that method all the time. The anchor system they use is crazy stable. I know I could just as accurate and there wouldn't be a risk of bend marks on the club. But you need to have that rock solid base and perfect hosel clamp system.
[/quote] Actually beating on the sole with a large rubber mallet makes some sense to make them more upright but beating on the toe to lay them flat does not. Flattening them out the clamp and pry method seems better to me as deforming the rest of the club in the process is less of a risk and the direction of the bending is more controllable. However, it also takes skill and technique which is something Ping obviously doesn't have the patience to teach their people. That thing about memory and locking it in is hogwash imo. Bent or unbent Ping irons hold their shape better than anyone. Hitting it keeps angles incrementally more precise and keeps techs from over bending and ruining club heads or breaking them accidently and it is my guess that's why they do it that way.

[Socrates]

[quote name='Upgrayedd' timestamp='1391437493' post='8589358']
[quote name='Socrates' timestamp='1391404160' post='8588340']
[quote name='Upgrayedd' timestamp='1391394104' post='8587226']
I have had irons adjusted professionally on a stand and have been very happy with the results. I have hit some with a 5# sledge myself. After watching that video I won't be sending any irons to ping for adjustment, that's for sure.
[/quote]
Actually if I had the ability to lock in the hosel like Ping does, I would be using that method all the time. The anchor system they use is crazy stable. I know I could just as accurate and there wouldn't be a risk of bend marks on the club. But you need to have that rock solid base and perfect hosel clamp system.
[/quote] Actually beating on the sole with a large rubber mallet makes some sense to make them more upright but beating on the toe to lay them flat does not. Flattening them out the clamp and pry method seems better to me as deforming the rest of the club in the process is less of a risk and the direction of the bending is more controllable. However, it also takes skill and technique which is something Ping obviously doesn't have the patience to teach their people.

That thing about memory and locking it in is hogwash imo. Bent or unbent Ping irons hold their shape better than anyone. Hitting it keeps angles incrementally more precise and keeps techs from over bending and ruining club heads or breaking them accidently and it is my guess that's why they do it that way.
[/quote]
The way I see it is that back in the day, there weren't a whole lot of options for bending clubs that weren't a blade. When KS came out with the cavity back, I'll bet that none of the the available bending machines would hold a Ping head properly and securely enough to allow him to bend 17-4. Being a brainiac, he came up with a solution that I think is very good. Bending is an acquired skill and I think it takes just as much touch to use a heavy mallet (although there is something to be said for a good fitter making compound bends all at once). As far as deforming, I guess it could happen but I think you would find the fulcrum point being more easily bent than the face.


As far as the memory, I came across this thread from 2011 ([url="http://www.golfwrx.com/forums/topic/508894-do-iron-heads-have-memory/"]Do iron heads have memory…[/url]). Some interesting reading and I know what and who I believe in that thread. [url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iVGerWFYotQ"]Hint[/url]

[Joe9977]

[quote name='Colej' timestamp='1390655239' post='8528741']
[quote name='Kennyyoli' timestamp='1389903967' post='8472885']
I just bought a set of Speedblades that were "ordered from the factory" at +1/2" shaft length and 2 degrees upright. My question is, can these irons be bent an addition 1 degree to end up at 3 degrees upright?
Thanks in advance for the info. I am a newbie member and love the forums!
[/quote]

The best way to check your lie angle is with a sharpie. Draw a straight line on the ball and set it up horizontal to the ground. The line will transfer to the face of the club. If the line is not straight up and down than your lie angle needs adjusted.
[/quote]

[Joe9977]

That's the best explanation of the line test. So many say to draw a horizontal line on the ball. Well a line on the ball is neither horizontal or vertical, all depends how it's placed on the ground. Great explanation on that!

[Joe9977]

[quote name='BrianL99' timestamp='1391032460' post='8560238']
[quote name='golf215' timestamp='1391016734' post='8558543']
Sadly there are no cast irons that can be bent and will reliably stay there... unless it's PING bending them at the factory. PING smashes the metal with a mallet to retrain the metal. Anyone who tells you they can bend it and it'll stay is really just wasting your time and money.
[/quote]

That's simply wrong. Both cast and forged clubs can be bent and they'll retain their new lie until something changes it.

There's no such thing as "memory" in a clubhead ... unless someone decided to make golf clubs from "Shape Memory Alloy" ([url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shape-memory_alloy"]http://en.wikipedia....pe-memory_alloy[/url]).

[url="http://www.mitchellgolf.com/news/bending-golf-clubs-facts-fallacies/"]http://www.mitchellg...acts-fallacies/[/url]

[url="http://www.equip2golf.com/clubmaking/clubmaking_frameset.html?jackson_articles/bending_clubs.html~clubmaking"]http://www.equip2gol...html~clubmaking[/url]
[/quote]

[Joe9977]

Incorrect. I've been in the game for 30+ years. Anyone who has messed with lie angles knows metal can bend back especially pounding it into the ground thousands of times like a...golf club.

[Joe9977]

[quote name='golf215' timestamp='1391051810' post='8562370']
[quote name='BrianL99' timestamp='1391032460' post='8560238']

That's simply wrong. Both cast and forged clubs can be bent and they'll retain their new lie until something changes it.

There's no such thing as "memory" in a clubhead ... unless someone decided to make golf clubs from "Shape Memory Alloy" ([url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shape-memory_alloy"]http://en.wikipedia....pe-memory_alloy[/url]).

[url="http://www.mitchellgolf.com/news/bending-golf-clubs-facts-fallacies/"]http://www.mitchellg...acts-fallacies/[/url]

[url="http://www.equip2golf.com/clubmaking/clubmaking_frameset.html?jackson_articles/bending_clubs.html~clubmaking"]http://www.equip2gol...html~clubmaking[/url]
[/quote]

I've heard these arguments before. I've searched for a corroborating sources outside of folks who stand to profit from telling this version of the story and have a hard time doing so. Mitchell makes great equipment and they gladly sell it to anyone needing to bend their irons. They profit from people bending. So does every golf shop that says, sure I'll bend it. They don't need to be concerned if it bends back, that's another opportunity to bend!

I have been to PING, I have watched the metal smashing process created by Karsten as a means of ensuring the metal doesn't bend back. As you probably know he's the first person to investment cast an iron and had a background in engineering. He was known for many innovations, and I can't recall any others that would've been viewed as pointless wastes of time.

I have checked cast iron sets that were bent in multiple situations. At least 5 or 6 sets that I've had the chance to check after some time had passed from their initial bend and I found many clubs revert back to their stock spec. I have literally watched the metal bend back seconds after being bent. And then there's the snapping, it doesn't happen often but they crack.

The casting process is used in part because it provides an extremely strong end product. They're designed to resist bending, they are cast so they don't bend. They must stand up to constant pressure.

One of your links admitted that this is still a debated issue, and as a risk averse person I choose to be safe.

I will set up a scientific test sometime soon to help put this controversy to rest (at least for me). I'll grab some oddball cast clubs, bend them, and check them over time. Unless of course someone else can find a scientific test that has already been completed.
[/quote]

[Joe9977]

I mess around with 4-5 sets of irons; 1200GE, Eye 2, Titleist, etc, bc I like to hit balls with other clubs, it's just fun for me. I'm gonna buy a Mitchell machine to test it all out. I go 1-2 flat depending on mfg "standard".