Handicap questions

[nsxguy]

> @bladehunter said:

> > @Roadking2003 said:

> > > @bladehunter said:

> > > Problem with that assumption is that plenty. I mean plenty of 12-15 cap guys can reach short par 5s in two. Maybe not accurately , as in on the green.

> > 12 - 15 cappers are more likely to double bogey a par five than birdie it.

> > My index is between 7 and 9. I average just over one birdie per round and 2.5 double bogeys per round.

> > You low cappers forget that there is a reason why somebody is a 15 capper and it's because they rarely make birdies and make only three or four pars per round.

>

> Another animal i haven’t met. 3 or 4 pars a round ? I just have a tough time with that. Maybe on a really really hard course. But over time their cap would probably come down from playing the hard course .

>

> I’ll be sure to give the play by play for my match tomorrow. And I’ll tell you now that my opponent is as honest as can be. But he will make a lot of pars .... he’s a 10.

 

How many pars "should" a 12-15 'capper make ? 4 pars and 14 bogie falls right in that range, no ? And yes, I know some doubles and some birdies will skew the ultimate result but,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

 

How many should your "10" opponent make ? Somewhere around 8, no ? Would 5 surprise you ? How about 11 ?

[SNIPERBBB]

Even on a hard course say 75/150 a 15(course cap is 20) should shoot about 98 which does leave some room for a few natural pars. An easier course they'd shoot on a 69/123 about 87 which is plenty of pars.

 

Assuming legit 15's and not vanity capped ones

 

Course handicap+course rating+3=expected score.

[HatsForBats]

> @bladehunter said:

> How many net birdies does the 12-15 guy average a round ?

 

That info I do not have at my fingertips. Maybe somewhere down line. Here is what I can report based on this leagues scoring.

 

Birdie or Better = .74 per 18 holes

Par = 5.43

bogey = 7

double bogey = 3.33

triple or more = 1.5

 

 

 

 

[bladehunter]

> @nsxguy said:

> > @bladehunter said:

> > > @Roadking2003 said:

> > > > @bladehunter said:

> > > > Problem with that assumption is that plenty. I mean plenty of 12-15 cap guys can reach short par 5s in two. Maybe not accurately , as in on the green.

> > > 12 - 15 cappers are more likely to double bogey a par five than birdie it.

> > > My index is between 7 and 9. I average just over one birdie per round and 2.5 double bogeys per round.

> > > You low cappers forget that there is a reason why somebody is a 15 capper and it's because they rarely make birdies and make only three or four pars per round.

> >

> > Another animal i haven’t met. 3 or 4 pars a round ? I just have a tough time with that. Maybe on a really really hard course. But over time their cap would probably come down from playing the hard course .

> >

> > I’ll be sure to give the play by play for my match tomorrow. And I’ll tell you now that my opponent is as honest as can be. But he will make a lot of pars .... he’s a 10.

>

> How many pars "should" a 12-15 'capper make ? 4 pars and 14 bogie falls right in that range, no ? And yes, I know some doubles and some birdies will skew the ultimate result but,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

>

> How many should your "10" opponent make ? Somewhere around 8, no ? Would 5 surprise you ? How about 11 ?

 

 

I’m not sure to be honest. Not with this particular 10. I’ll guess now and say he makes 4. On the low side and 10 if it goes to 18. I just have a feeling we won’t go past 10 holes. I’ve played with this guy several times. And he’s mentally unstable. I’ve never seen a person cuss himself out quicker.

 

 

 

[Roadking2003]

This site says 11 - 15 cappers make 5.1 pars per round.

 

https://Not allowed because of spam.com/study-overall-golfer-performance-by-handicap/

[DaveLeeNC]

Just a general comment on how many pars per round for a X index golfer ...

 

A really big variable here is which tees are you playing. To pick a course where a 15 index might choose the blue tees at 6600 yards, or (particularly if this was a former single digit golfer now in his 70/80s') the 'senior tees' at 5700 yards a 15 index golfer 'shooting his handicap' from the green tees needs to shoot 6 strokes better than from the blue tees. These stats are from Pinehurst No. 6.

 

I would expect this choice to have a big difference on the typical # of pars that this golfer achieves on average.

 

dave

 

ps. As an aside of those 6 strokes, 2 are due to differences in slope and 4 due to differences in course rating. And you can add another four strokes if this golfer ends up on the TIPS on this course at a bit over 7000 yards.

[Newby]

error. please ignore

 

PS how do i delete a post?

 

[SNIPERBBB]

You can't. Best you can do is clear what you wrote.

[bladehunter]

Delete

[Windlaker_1]

My apologies to all for the VERY late reply...got moved at work and was offline for a while.

 

BB28403 - _And why would he complain if he is winning?_ Because he wants to win MORE! Greed, fear and greed...3 top three human emotions.

 

Aguster - _Golf’s handicap system is the greatest in the world because players of different skill levels can compete equitably._ That's what we keep telling him. We all enter all our scores, to keep the handicap up to date. And no one has ever gotten two strokes on a Par 3 yet. The thing that brought this up was we had a 3 or 4 hole carryover, and I won it by getting the stroke on a Par 3.

 

Bladehunter - _When you say “ we got sick of golf being a part time job for him “. I assume you mean you got sick of him winning ? If so what are you implying you did to curb the winning ?_ Yes, we did this to even it up. For a while we doing the "stroke on every Par 4, or Par 5", or moving him back a tee box. He still was winning a vast majority of the holes. The last 2 Summers, using the handicaps, the money is getting split much more evenly. My brothers and I are happy (all close to the same handicap)...nephew is the only one crying. Go figure!

 

Thanks to all who contributed. I never thought it would generate this kind of debate.

 

WindLaker

[bladehunter]

> @Windlaker_1 said:

> My apologies to all for the VERY late reply...got moved at work and was offline for a while.

>

> BB28403 - _And why would he complain if he is winning?_ Because he wants to win MORE! Greed, fear and greed...3 top three human emotions.

>

> Aguster - _Golf’s handicap system is the greatest in the world because players of different skill levels can compete equitably._ That's what we keep telling him. We all enter all our scores, to keep the handicap up to date. And no one has ever gotten two strokes on a Par 3 yet. The thing that brought this up was we had a 3 or 4 hole carryover, and I won it by getting the stroke on a Par 3.

>

> Bladehunter - _When you say “ we got sick of golf being a part time job for him “. I assume you mean you got sick of him winning ? If so what are you implying you did to curb the winning ?_ Yes, we did this to even it up. For a while we doing the "stroke on every Par 4, or Par 5", or moving him back a tee box. He still was winning a vast majority of the holes. The last 2 Summers, using the handicaps, the money is getting split much more evenly. My brothers and I are happy (all close to the same handicap)...nephew is the only one crying. Go figure!

>

> Thanks to all who contributed. I never thought it would generate this kind of debate.

>

> WindLaker

 

Soooo. It wasnt fair for it to be skewed toward the guy playing better .... but it’s ok to skew it you 3s way and cal him a crybaby or cryer or whatever ? Not the greatest example being set is it ?

[Windlaker_1]

bladerunner,

We decided we were going to play the strokes as the software assigned them, not move them around. So was I supposed to say "Nope, that's OK...I'll pass on winning this so you can possibly want the carryover on the next hole."?

What is your solution to this? I'd be interested to hear it.

Windlaker

[nsxguy]

> @Windlaker_1 said:

> bladerunner,

> We decided we were going to play the strokes as the software assigned them, not move them around. So was I supposed to say "Nope, that's OK...I'll pass on winning this so you can possibly want the carryover on the next hole."?

> What is your solution to this? I'd be interested to hear it.

> Windlaker

 

I'm not sure bladerunner (nor I for that matter) quite understand your various solutions as described above (post 70 and this quoted post). It was a bit confusing but do I understand you to be saying that PREVIOUSLY you did NOT use the handicapped hole ratings ?

 

But instead you made up your own places to give/get strokes ? You were getting your strokes on par 4s and 5s ?

 

OR alternately (or in conjunction with) you were moving him back 1 tee box ?

 

And NOW that you're using the handicapped holes as rated, as you should, the matches are coming out much more evenly ? So your nephew is whining about not winning as often (but still gets his share ?) as he used to ?

 

That about cover it ?

[bladehunter]

> @nsxguy said:

> > @Windlaker_1 said:

> > bladerunner,

> > We decided we were going to play the strokes as the software assigned them, not move them around. So was I supposed to say "Nope, that's OK...I'll pass on winning this so you can possibly want the carryover on the next hole."?

> > What is your solution to this? I'd be interested to hear it.

> > Windlaker

>

> I'm not sure bladerunner (nor I for that matter) quite understand your various solutions as described above (post 70 and this quoted post). It was a bit confusing but do I understand you to be saying that PREVIOUSLY you did NOT use the handicapped hole ratings ?

>

> But instead you made up your own places to give/get strokes ? You were getting your strokes on par 4s and 5s ?

>

> OR alternately (or in conjunction with) you were moving him back 1 tee box ?

>

> And NOW that you're using the handicapped holes as rated, as you should, the matches are coming out much more evenly ? So your nephew is whining about not winning as often (but still gets his share ?) as he used to ?

>

> That about cover it ?

 

Thanks nsx. The OP wasn’t really clear what they were doing. Sounded to me like they were just cutting his handicap differential for playing a different tee. Which isn’t what the rules say you can do. Either that or cutting his shots to “ even it up “. Also not allowed.

[davep043]

> @Windlaker_1 said:

> For a while we doing the "stroke on every Par 4, or Par 5", or moving him back a tee box. He still was winning a vast majority of the holes. The last 2 Summers, using the handicaps, the money is getting split much more evenly. My brothers and I are happy (all close to the same handicap)...nephew is the only one crying. Go figure!

>

Guys, the way I read this is that they weren't really using calculated handicaps at all until the past couple of seasons. they tried informal ways to even up the matches, including making the better player go off a longer set of tees, or giving strokes on certain holes without actually calculating handicaps, and the best player was still winning a disproportionate share. Since they started using a handicap calculator for all 4 players, and applying handicap strokes where they should be applied, the money is being spread around pretty evenly. If I'm right, this is an example of the way the handicap system is supposed to work.

 

[HitEmTrue]

> @davep043 said:

> > @Windlaker_1 said:

> > For a while we doing the "stroke on every Par 4, or Par 5", or moving him back a tee box. He still was winning a vast majority of the holes. The last 2 Summers, using the handicaps, the money is getting split much more evenly. My brothers and I are happy (all close to the same handicap)...nephew is the only one crying. Go figure!

> >

> Guys, the way I read this is that they weren't really using calculated handicaps at all until the past couple of seasons. they tried informal ways to even up the matches, including making the better player go off a longer set of tees, or giving strokes on certain holes without actually calculating handicaps, and the best player was still winning a disproportionate share. Since they started using a handicap calculator for all 4 players, and applying handicap strokes where they should be applied, the money is being spread around pretty evenly. If I'm right, this is an example of the way the handicap system is supposed to work.

>

 

That's how I read it too...they were trying to invent their own way of handicapping, and switched to keeping and using real handicap.

 

[davep043]

> @HitEmTrue said:

> > @davep043 said:

> > > @Windlaker_1 said:

> > > For a while we doing the "stroke on every Par 4, or Par 5", or moving him back a tee box. He still was winning a vast majority of the holes. The last 2 Summers, using the handicaps, the money is getting split much more evenly. My brothers and I are happy (all close to the same handicap)...nephew is the only one crying. Go figure!

> > >

> > Guys, the way I read this is that they weren't really using calculated handicaps at all until the past couple of seasons. they tried informal ways to even up the matches, including making the better player go off a longer set of tees, or giving strokes on certain holes without actually calculating handicaps, and the best player was still winning a disproportionate share. Since they started using a handicap calculator for all 4 players, and applying handicap strokes where they should be applied, the money is being spread around pretty evenly. If I'm right, this is an example of the way the handicap system is supposed to work.

> >

>

> That's how I read it too...they were trying to invent their own way of handicapping, and switched to keeping and using real handicap.

>

 

And oddly enough, using real handicaps works to even out the money. Sounds like a feel-good story to me.

[Shilgy]

> @davep043 said:

> > @HitEmTrue said:

> > > @davep043 said:

> > > > @Windlaker_1 said:

> > > > For a while we doing the "stroke on every Par 4, or Par 5", or moving him back a tee box. He still was winning a vast majority of the holes. The last 2 Summers, using the handicaps, the money is getting split much more evenly. My brothers and I are happy (all close to the same handicap)...nephew is the only one crying. Go figure!

> > > >

> > > Guys, the way I read this is that they weren't really using calculated handicaps at all until the past couple of seasons. they tried informal ways to even up the matches, including making the better player go off a longer set of tees, or giving strokes on certain holes without actually calculating handicaps, and the best player was still winning a disproportionate share. Since they started using a handicap calculator for all 4 players, and applying handicap strokes where they should be applied, the money is being spread around pretty evenly. If I'm right, this is an example of the way the handicap system is supposed to work.

> > >

> >

> > That's how I read it too...they were trying to invent their own way of handicapping, and switched to keeping and using real handicap.

> >

>

> And oddly enough, using real handicaps works to even out the money. Sounds like a feel-good story to me.

 

I bet the guy the old system favored doesn't agree with you. :smiley:

[bladehunter]

> @Shilgy said:

> > @davep043 said:

> > > @HitEmTrue said:

> > > > @davep043 said:

> > > > > @Windlaker_1 said:

> > > > > For a while we doing the "stroke on every Par 4, or Par 5", or moving him back a tee box. He still was winning a vast majority of the holes. The last 2 Summers, using the handicaps, the money is getting split much more evenly. My brothers and I are happy (all close to the same handicap)...nephew is the only one crying. Go figure!

> > > > >

> > > > Guys, the way I read this is that they weren't really using calculated handicaps at all until the past couple of seasons. they tried informal ways to even up the matches, including making the better player go off a longer set of tees, or giving strokes on certain holes without actually calculating handicaps, and the best player was still winning a disproportionate share. Since they started using a handicap calculator for all 4 players, and applying handicap strokes where they should be applied, the money is being spread around pretty evenly. If I'm right, this is an example of the way the handicap system is supposed to work.

> > > >

> > >

> > > That's how I read it too...they were trying to invent their own way of handicapping, and switched to keeping and using real handicap.

> > >

> >

> > And oddly enough, using real handicaps works to even out the money. Sounds like a feel-good story to me.

>

> I bet the guy the old system favored doesn't agree with you. :smiley:

 

Wonder if the nephew thought of playing back a set of tees to get back some of the shots ? Especially since it sounds like he played back before.

 

 

 

Op. Any chance you’ll let us know what each player’s handicap is ?

[davep043]

> @Shilgy said:

> > @davep043 said:

> > > @HitEmTrue said:

> > > > @davep043 said:

> > > > > @Windlaker_1 said:

> > > > > For a while we doing the "stroke on every Par 4, or Par 5", or moving him back a tee box. He still was winning a vast majority of the holes. The last 2 Summers, using the handicaps, the money is getting split much more evenly. My brothers and I are happy (all close to the same handicap)...nephew is the only one crying. Go figure!

> > > > >

> > > > Guys, the way I read this is that they weren't really using calculated handicaps at all until the past couple of seasons. they tried informal ways to even up the matches, including making the better player go off a longer set of tees, or giving strokes on certain holes without actually calculating handicaps, and the best player was still winning a disproportionate share. Since they started using a handicap calculator for all 4 players, and applying handicap strokes where they should be applied, the money is being spread around pretty evenly. If I'm right, this is an example of the way the handicap system is supposed to work.

> > > >

> > >

> > > That's how I read it too...they were trying to invent their own way of handicapping, and switched to keeping and using real handicap.

> > >

> >

> > And oddly enough, using real handicaps works to even out the money. Sounds like a feel-good story to me.

>

> I bet the guy the old system favored doesn't agree with you. :smiley:

 

I'm sure you're right, he probably thinks he deserved to take money from his friends every week. I don't know about that group, but if I was involved, that guy wouldn't have been invited after a while.

[Windlaker_1]

> @davep043 said:

> > @Windlaker_1 said:

> > For a while we doing the "stroke on every Par 4, or Par 5", or moving him back a tee box. He still was winning a vast majority of the holes. The last 2 Summers, using the handicaps, the money is getting split much more evenly. My brothers and I are happy (all close to the same handicap)...nephew is the only one crying. Go figure!

> >

> Guys, the way I read this is that they weren't really using calculated handicaps at all until the past couple of seasons. _they tried informal ways to even up the matches, including making the better player go off a longer set of tees, or giving strokes on certain holes without actually calculating handicaps, and the best player was still winning a disproportionate share. _ Since they started using a handicap calculator for all 4 players, and applying handicap strokes where they should be applied, the money is being spread around pretty evenly. If I'm right, this is an example of the way the handicap system is supposed to work.

>

davep043 has it exactly correct.

 

Bladerunner - My handicap is 19.5 Brother #1 is 23.7 Brother #2 is 29.0 Nephew is 11.6

 

Yes, since we've been using the handicap, the payouts are much more evenly distributed. Everyone is happy except the nephew. And if he wasn't family, yes, he'd not be invited to play again. That's why I said he was looking at it "as a part-time job".

 

Thanks for all your feedback.

[davep043]

> @Windlaker_1 said:

> > @davep043 said:

> > > @Windlaker_1 said:

> > > For a while we doing the "stroke on every Par 4, or Par 5", or moving him back a tee box. He still was winning a vast majority of the holes. The last 2 Summers, using the handicaps, the money is getting split much more evenly. My brothers and I are happy (all close to the same handicap)...nephew is the only one crying. Go figure!

> > >

> > Guys, the way I read this is that they weren't really using calculated handicaps at all until the past couple of seasons. _they tried informal ways to even up the matches, including making the better player go off a longer set of tees, or giving strokes on certain holes without actually calculating handicaps, and the best player was still winning a disproportionate share. _ Since they started using a handicap calculator for all 4 players, and applying handicap strokes where they should be applied, the money is being spread around pretty evenly. If I'm right, this is an example of the way the handicap system is supposed to work.

> >

> davep043 has it exactly correct.

>

> Bladerunner - My handicap is 19.5 Brother #1 is 23.7 Brother #2 is 29.0 Nephew is 11.6

>

> Yes, since we've been using the handicap, the payouts are much more evenly distributed. Everyone is happy except the nephew. And if he wasn't family, yes, he'd not be invited to play again. That's why I said he was looking at it "as a part-time job".

>

> Thanks for all your feedback.

 

Last question (maybe) from me, do you keep track of who wins each week, and how much? It might be good to be able to show that entitled whippersnapper (just teasing, really) that things truly are more "fair".

[Windlaker_1]

Dave,

No, I've never kept track. And we don't play for big dollars. A buck a hole, a buck for Green Balls, $2.00 for lowest putts.

I just remember having to pay anywhere between $5.00 to $12.00 on a semi-regular basis. Along with my brothers. Now it's rarely more than $5.00 either way per guy...unless someone shoots a really low score.

[bladehunter]

Lol. You guys exemplify what I’ve run into. Won too often , uninvited. Wow first people I’ve heard admit it. So props for being honest. But poor form for being sore . When I gripe about losing to guys net I’m told unanimously “ play better “. Why doesn’t that work the opposite?

 

Now I get that you won’t just drop your cap 10 shots. Sure. But there are a multitude of games , teams matches etc to play that will even the field vs just running the young guy of the group off. Shame on either for thinking that way. If he’s an a** , rude , late , or any number of party fowls sure. I agree. But to run a guy off for being a better player ? Lol. I’ll just have to bite my tongue and not say what I truly think.

[bladehunter]

How old is this nephew ? We talking a junior or 45?

[Windlaker_1]

We are in our mid-to-late 50's. Nephew is 30 or 31. Played High School golf, 3 years on Varsity.

I will re-phrase my comment. He'd still be invited to play, I just wouldn't bet with him. Great guy, fun to be with.

[nsxguy]

> @bladehunter said:

> **Lol. You guys exemplify what I’ve run into. Won too often , uninvited**. Wow first people I’ve heard admit it. So props for being honest. But poor form for being sore . When I gripe about losing to guys net I’m told unanimously “ play better “. Why doesn’t that work the opposite?

>

> Now I get that you won’t just drop your cap 10 shots. Sure. But there are a multitude of games , teams matches etc to play that will even the field vs just running the young guy of the group off. Shame on either for thinking that way. If he’s an **** , rude , late , or any number of party fowls sure. I agree. But to run a guy off for being a better player ? Lol. I’ll just have to bite my tongue and not say what I truly think.

 

Difference is, at least you were playing a fair game so you could (fairly) complain about being uninvited.

 

They were playing a game stacked in the nephew's favor, even if none(?) of them knew it. Just a guess but I'd say it was about 50/50 that the nephew, at an 11 handicap, likely knew he had the advantage the way they initially "figured it out".

[Windlaker_1]

No, we knew he had a HUGE advantage. That's why we kept trying different things...stokes, different tee boxes.

I never played in am "Official" league til about 3-4 years ago...that's when we decided on establishing handicaps.

Now instead of the 3 of us bitching, now he's the one.

If it keeps up, I'll just play with no stakes.

[bladehunter]

Can’t blame the guy for griping about a 3 way pencil whipping. The odds of him beating all 3 of you at once is probably around 1000 to 1.

[davep043]

> @bladehunter said:

> Lol. You guys exemplify what I’ve run into. Won too often , uninvited. Wow first people I’ve heard admit it. So props for being honest. But poor form for being sore . When I gripe about losing to guys net I’m told unanimously “ play better “. Why doesn’t that work the opposite?

>

> Now I get that you won’t just drop your cap 10 shots. Sure. But there are a multitude of games , teams matches etc to play that will even the field vs just running the young guy of the group off. Shame on either for thinking that way. If he’s an **** , rude , late , or any number of party fowls sure. I agree. But to run a guy off for being a better player ? Lol. I’ll just have to bite my tongue and not say what I truly think.

 

These guys weren't using any organized method to handicap matches, just trying to find ways to even things out, and the things they tried weren't working. When one player takes money from the other 3 players every time, something isn't right. So they changed, started using the actual handicap system, and things evened out. Not that one guy wouldn't win big once in a while, but that it wasn't the same guy every week. It sounds like the better player is still winning his share, he's simply not winning every single time. That's the way thee system is supposed to work.

And you found out the reason you kept losing to guys based on handicaps, the handicap system simply wasn't being used properly at your club. This foursome was the same, one guy kept winning because their methods of "handicapping" weren't appropriate.