Handicap questions

[Windlaker_1]

Negative. He rarely shoots above 88 or so. I'm usually in the low-to-mid 90's. Brother #1 usually in the mid-to-high 90's. Brother #2 rarely breaks 100.

[bladehunter]

> @nsxguy said:

> > @bladehunter said:

> > **Lol. You guys exemplify what I’ve run into. Won too often , uninvited**. Wow first people I’ve heard admit it. So props for being honest. But poor form for being sore . When I gripe about losing to guys net I’m told unanimously “ play better “. Why doesn’t that work the opposite?

> >

> > Now I get that you won’t just drop your cap 10 shots. Sure. But there are a multitude of games , teams matches etc to play that will even the field vs just running the young guy of the group off. Shame on either for thinking that way. If he’s an **** , rude , late , or any number of party fowls sure. I agree. But to run a guy off for being a better player ? Lol. I’ll just have to bite my tongue and not say what I truly think.

>

> Difference is, at least you were playing a fair game so you could (fairly) complain about being uninvited.

>

> They were playing a game stacked in the nephew's favor, even if none(?) of them knew it. Just a guess but I'd say it was about 50/50 that the nephew, at an 11 handicap, likely knew he had the advantage the way they initially "figured it out".

 

I wonder though. . If they take him and move him back a box. Usually that’s around 3 shot differential. So he goes from an 11 to a 14.( or whatever the math works to ). Are you guys giving him the differential now ? Or is he an 11 no matter what box he’s on ? What are you and your brothers shooting to win ?

 

 

Edit. More accurately. He’s an 11 and the 20 is then a 17 and so on.

 

And has the nephew won at all since the change ? We need more info. Lol

[Windlaker_1]

_These guys weren't using any organized method to handicap matches, just trying to find ways to even things out, and the things they tried weren't working. When one player takes money from the other 3 players every time, something isn't right. So they changed, started using the actual handicap system, and things evened out. Not that one guy wouldn't win big once in a while, but that it wasn't the same guy every week. It sounds like the better player is still winning his share, he's simply not winning every single time. That's the way thee system is supposed to work._ Agree 100%

 

_And you found out the reason you kept losing to guys based on handicaps, the handicap system simply wasn't being used properly at your club. This foursome was the same, one guy kept winning because their methods of "handicapping" weren't appropriate._ Not sure I follow you on this point. Do you mean "Our" handicap system of adding strokes, different tee boxes, etc?

[Windlaker_1]

Bladehunter, same tee boxes now for all 4 of us. Use the handicap as the app spits it out.

[bladehunter]

> @Windlaker_1 said:

> Bladehunter, same tee boxes now for all 4 of us. Use the handicap as the app spits it out.

 

Gotcha. My advise to him would be to move back 2 boxes. Lol

[davep043]

> @Windlaker_1 said:

> _These guys weren't using any organized method to handicap matches, just trying to find ways to even things out, and the things they tried weren't working. When one player takes money from the other 3 players every time, something isn't right. So they changed, started using the actual handicap system, and things evened out. Not that one guy wouldn't win big once in a while, but that it wasn't the same guy every week. It sounds like the better player is still winning his share, he's simply not winning every single time. That's the way thee system is supposed to work._ Agree 100%

>

> _And you found out the reason you kept losing to guys based on handicaps, the handicap system simply wasn't being used properly at your club. This foursome was the same, one guy kept winning because their methods of "handicapping" weren't appropriate._

 

Not sure I follow you on this point. Do you mean "Our" handicap system of adding strokes, different tee boxes, etc?

 

That's right, the systems you had previously used to try to equalize things just weren't working. It was when you went to the real handicap system that all four of you began to have similar chances of winning. All any of us should want is for a fair chance to win, and for the money to come out around even for the long term.

[Windlaker_1]

AMEN, Brother Dave!

[bladehunter]

Now I want to hear you guys defend running a guy off for winning too often ? Lol. That one is pretty short sighted.

 

Now I’m mostly poking fun. As I’ve told Dave many times I’m sure we’d get along famously in person. As I am accommodating and I know he is too. But goodness if his only indiscretions are showing up and shooting lower score , you guys all need to think about right vs wrong and how to treat your neighbors.

[davep043]

> @bladehunter said:

> Now I want to hear you guys defend running a guy off for winning too often ? Lol. That one is pretty short sighted.

>

> Now I’m mostly poking fun. As I’ve told Dave many times I’m sure we’d get along famously in person. As I am accommodating and I know he is too. But goodness if his only indiscretions are showing up and shooting lower score , you guys all need to think about right vs wrong and how to treat your neighbors.

 

My mention of dis-inviting him was based on what I understood was his attitude, that he DESERVED to win every singe time, and that using the actual handicap system to make things EVEN was completely unfair to him. If he's complaining that he's only breaking even with his bets, he doesn't understand the point of getting together to play with friends. If the system works, nobody wins every time.

[bladehunter]

> @davep043 said:

> > @bladehunter said:

> > Now I want to hear you guys defend running a guy off for winning too often ? Lol. That one is pretty short sighted.

> >

> > Now I’m mostly poking fun. As I’ve told Dave many times I’m sure we’d get along famously in person. As I am accommodating and I know he is too. But goodness if his only indiscretions are showing up and shooting lower score , you guys all need to think about right vs wrong and how to treat your neighbors.

>

> My mention of dis-inviting him was based on what I understood was his attitude, that he DESERVED to win every singe time, and that using the actual handicap system to make things EVEN was completely unfair to him. If he's complaining that he's only breaking even with his bets, he doesn't understand the point of getting together to play with friends. If the system works, nobody wins every time.

 

I think it’s fair to say that the side we’ve been given is probably one of a pretty heavily skewed viewpoint. I don’t read it to say that he says that even is unfair. I read it to say that the op was tired of losing and worked to find a way to change that. And is now rather happy with himself.

 

Now. We should define “ even “. Is one lower cap guy going to stand a chance vs 3 guys over 20 ? I say no. The odds of all 3 having a bad day at once and the 11 shooting his cap is slim. Odds are against him on shear numbers alone.

 

I’ve also not read where the op says that the nephew has won at all since the change. If not. How’s that square as “ even “?

 

Let me guess. Play better ? Lol.

[davep043]

> @bladehunter said:

 

>

> I think it’s fair to say that the side we’ve been given is probably one of a pretty heavily skewed viewpoint. I don’t read it to say that he says that even is unfair. I read it to say that the op was tired of losing and worked to find a way to change that. And is now rather happy with himself.

>

> Now. We should define “ even “. Is one lower cap guy going to stand a chance vs 3 guys over 20 ? I say no. The odds of all 3 having a bad day at once and the 11 shooting his cap is slim. Odds are against him on shear numbers alone.

>

> I’ve also not read where the op says that the nephew has won at all since the change. If not. How’s that square as “ even “?

>

> Let me guess. Play better ? Lol.

 

Perhaps you missed this on post #70:

> Bladehunter - When you say “ we got sick of golf being a part time job for him “. I assume you mean you got sick of him winning ? If so what are you implying you did to curb the winning ? Yes, we did this to even it up. For a while we doing the "stroke on every Par 4, or Par 5", or moving him back a tee box. He still was winning a vast majority of the holes. The last 2 Summers, using the handicaps, the money is getting split much more evenly. My brothers and I are happy (all close to the same handicap)...nephew is the only one crying. Go figure!

 

So before, the one guy was winning a majority of holes. Now that they're using actual handicap, the money is getting split much more evenly. And the nephew is unhappy about an even split of the money. Somewhere else the OP talked about what games they're playing,a buck a hole, and some money for greens, I forget what else. It isn't like he has to be low net to win something, he needs to have some decent holes.

[bladehunter]

> @davep043 said:

> > @bladehunter said:

>

> >

> > I think it’s fair to say that the side we’ve been given is probably one of a pretty heavily skewed viewpoint. I don’t read it to say that he says that even is unfair. I read it to say that the op was tired of losing and worked to find a way to change that. And is now rather happy with himself.

> >

> > Now. We should define “ even “. Is one lower cap guy going to stand a chance vs 3 guys over 20 ? I say no. The odds of all 3 having a bad day at once and the 11 shooting his cap is slim. Odds are against him on shear numbers alone.

> >

> > I’ve also not read where the op says that the nephew has won at all since the change. If not. How’s that square as “ even “?

> >

> > Let me guess. Play better ? Lol.

>

> Perhaps you missed this on post #70:

> > Bladehunter - When you say “ we got sick of golf being a part time job for him “. I assume you mean you got sick of him winning ? If so what are you implying you did to curb the winning ? Yes, we did this to even it up. For a while we doing the "stroke on every Par 4, or Par 5", or moving him back a tee box. He still was winning a vast majority of the holes. The last 2 Summers, using the handicaps, the money is getting split much more evenly. My brothers and I are happy (all close to the same handicap)...nephew is the only one crying. Go figure!

>

> So before, the one guy was winning a majority of holes. Now that they're using actual handicap, the money is getting split much more evenly. And the nephew is unhappy about an even split of the money. Somewhere else the OP talked about what games they're playing,a buck a hole, and some money for greens, I forget what else. It isn't like he has to be low net to win something, he needs to have some decent holes.

 

To me that doesn’t necessarily say that the nephew is winning. Evenly in this type thing usually means an accounting balance to right to perceived wrong from before. As in he won for 2 years. Now we will take his money for two to get even.

[Windlaker_1]

We played a couple weeks ago at The Bull...a Jack Nickolas course...probably the toughest course I've ever played.

Nephew shot an 83. Everyone else was between 100 & 105. Nephew cleaned up, because he shot really well on a tough course.

None of the 3 of us bitched about paying. We knew he shot GREAT, and we all struggled. Nephew earned it.

But the whole ride up there, all we heard from him was "If any of you are getting 2 strokes on a Par 3 (which did NOT happen), we're changing something cause it's not fair.".

I have no problem paying my debts if someone has a good day. I just don't believe he should go out expecting to be guaranteed winning cash.

As Al Chervic says...."Keep it fair".

[SNIPERBBB]

I think I'd mix in some team games as well. It's wears on you giving strokes every or every other hole. Especially when your a mid cappers as you're generally not going to make many pars to cover that many net pars . Plus just the same old game gets boring after a while.

[bladehunter]

> @Windlaker_1 said:

> We played a couple weeks ago at The Bull...a Jack Nickolas course...probably the toughest course I've ever played.

> Nephew shot an 83. Everyone else was between 100 & 105. Nephew cleaned up, because he shot really well on a tough course.

> None of the 3 of us bitched about paying. We knew he shot GREAT, and we all struggled. Nephew earned it.

> But the whole ride up there, all we heard from him was "If any of you are getting 2 strokes on a Par 3 (which did NOT happen), we're changing something cause it's not fair.".

> I have no problem paying my debts if someone has a good day. I just don't believe he should go out expecting to be guaranteed winning cash.

> As Al Chervic says...."Keep it fair".

 

Thanks for clearing up the “ has he won “ question. I never assume yes in these situations. Plenty here believe a lower cap should never win unless they break out so to speak.

 

As for the two pops on a par 3 ? I’m with him. I’d just refuse a bet on that hole . If you par I have to hole out. Nonsense. In my opinion a player should never have to make eagle to tie when shots are involved. Eagles for even a scratch player are so rare. Eagle to win a hole sure. Eagle to tie ? No way to claim that’s even play.

[bladehunter]

> @SNIPERBBB said:

> I think I'd mix in some team games as well. It's wears on you giving strokes every or every other hole. Especially when your a mid cappers as you're generally not going to make many pars to cover that many net pars . Plus just the same old game gets boring after a while.

 

 

Yep. He will quit the group the second he hooks up with 2-3 similar handicaps. No offense meant op. But this pancake is two sided. Giving pops on every hole is something I only do once of twice a year. Tops. It’s mentally exhausting. And yes. I’m biased.same as you. Once he gets a taste of even play. He won’t be donating to that pot anymore.

[davep043]

> @bladehunter said:

> > @davep043 said:

> > > @bladehunter said:

> >

> > >

> > > I think it’s fair to say that the side we’ve been given is probably one of a pretty heavily skewed viewpoint. I don’t read it to say that he says that even is unfair. I read it to say that the op was tired of losing and worked to find a way to change that. And is now rather happy with himself.

> > >

> > > Now. We should define “ even “. Is one lower cap guy going to stand a chance vs 3 guys over 20 ? I say no. The odds of all 3 having a bad day at once and the 11 shooting his cap is slim. Odds are against him on shear numbers alone.

> > >

> > > I’ve also not read where the op says that the nephew has won at all since the change. If not. How’s that square as “ even “?

> > >

> > > Let me guess. Play better ? Lol.

> >

> > Perhaps you missed this on post #70:

> > > Bladehunter - When you say “ we got sick of golf being a part time job for him “. I assume you mean you got sick of him winning ? If so what are you implying you did to curb the winning ? Yes, we did this to even it up. For a while we doing the "stroke on every Par 4, or Par 5", or moving him back a tee box. He still was winning a vast majority of the holes. The last 2 Summers, using the handicaps, the money is getting split much more evenly. My brothers and I are happy (all close to the same handicap)...nephew is the only one crying. Go figure!

> >

> > So before, the one guy was winning a majority of holes. Now that they're using actual handicap, the money is getting split much more evenly. And the nephew is unhappy about an even split of the money. Somewhere else the OP talked about what games they're playing,a buck a hole, and some money for greens, I forget what else. It isn't like he has to be low net to win something, he needs to have some decent holes.

>

> To me that doesn’t necessarily say that the nephew is winning. Evenly in this type thing usually means an accounting balance to right to perceived wrong from before. As in he won for 2 years. > Now we will take his money for two to get even.

 

You read

> The last 2 Summers, using the handicaps, the money is getting split much more evenly.

and you interpret it as meaning

> Now we will take his money for two to get even.

and then say that you never assume? You assumed that the OP was saying something different from the truth. If we can't accept that we're each telling the truth, where's the basis for a reasonable discussion?

And for the OP, @bladehunter and I have a history of arguing with one another. I feel like we're becoming the kinds of friends who are at each other's throats until someone else attacks one of us, and then we're on the same side against THAT guy. I'm glad that you've found a system that keeps the money reasonably well balanced. I hope your nephew will come to accept the idea that breaking even in the long term is a pretty reasonable result.

[bladehunter]

> @davep043 said:

> > @bladehunter said:

> > > @davep043 said:

> > > > @bladehunter said:

> > >

> > > >

> > > > I think it’s fair to say that the side we’ve been given is probably one of a pretty heavily skewed viewpoint. I don’t read it to say that he says that even is unfair. I read it to say that the op was tired of losing and worked to find a way to change that. And is now rather happy with himself.

> > > >

> > > > Now. We should define “ even “. Is one lower cap guy going to stand a chance vs 3 guys over 20 ? I say no. The odds of all 3 having a bad day at once and the 11 shooting his cap is slim. Odds are against him on shear numbers alone.

> > > >

> > > > I’ve also not read where the op says that the nephew has won at all since the change. If not. How’s that square as “ even “?

> > > >

> > > > Let me guess. Play better ? Lol.

> > >

> > > Perhaps you missed this on post #70:

> > > > Bladehunter - When you say “ we got sick of golf being a part time job for him “. I assume you mean you got sick of him winning ? If so what are you implying you did to curb the winning ? Yes, we did this to even it up. For a while we doing the "stroke on every Par 4, or Par 5", or moving him back a tee box. He still was winning a vast majority of the holes. The last 2 Summers, using the handicaps, the money is getting split much more evenly. My brothers and I are happy (all close to the same handicap)...nephew is the only one crying. Go figure!

> > >

> > > So before, the one guy was winning a majority of holes. Now that they're using actual handicap, the money is getting split much more evenly. And the nephew is unhappy about an even split of the money. Somewhere else the OP talked about what games they're playing,a buck a hole, and some money for greens, I forget what else. It isn't like he has to be low net to win something, he needs to have some decent holes.

> >

> > To me that doesn’t necessarily say that the nephew is winning. Evenly in this type thing usually means an accounting balance to right to perceived wrong from before. As in he won for 2 years. > Now we will take his money for two to get even.

>

> You read

> > The last 2 Summers, using the handicaps, the money is getting split much more evenly.

> and you interpret it as meaning

> > Now we will take his money for two to get even.

> and then say that you never assume? You assumed that the OP was saying something different from the truth. If we can't accept that we're each telling the truth, where's the basis for a reasonable discussion?

> And for the OP, @bladehunter and I have a history of arguing with one another. I feel like we're becoming the kinds of friends who are at each other's throats until someone else attacks one of us, and then we're on the same side against THAT guy. I'm glad that you've found a system that keeps the money reasonably well balanced. I hope your nephew will come to accept the idea that breaking even in the long term is a pretty reasonable result.

 

Lol. Dave. You know I just like to get the facts. Nothing but the facts ma’am ! Lol

 

But seriously. Just trying to paint an accurate picture in my head. This type thing interests me

to no end because I frequently disagree with most. So I want to see the opposite side of it. And absolutely get carried away sometimes in that search. Not at all trying to say someone didn’t tell the truth.

[Shilgy]

I would add to Blade.... If a guy is getting two pops on a hole the likelihood of him getting that par you need eagle to tie is really really slim.

[nsxguy]

> @Shilgy said:

> I would add to Blade.... If a guy is getting two pops on a hole the likelihood of him getting that par you need eagle to tie is really really slim.

 

Ya think ? LOL

 

He bets on the match and excludes holes he doesn't like ? Does it have to be a "2 pop" par 3 or can he exclude any hole he doesn't like ?

 

And how does one even do that ? Does he get to that hole and say "This hole doesn't count for the match ?" Or does he check before the round and says "Wait, you get 2 pops on 12 so it's a 17 hole match and that hole doesn't count' ?

 

Good luck getting a game in my neck of the woods trying to get away with that stuff. LMAO

 

 

[rogolf]

Based on the original poster's information - _My handicap is 19.5 Brother #1 is 23.7 Brother #2 is 29.0 Nephew is 11.6_

If playing off the low 'capper, how is anyone getting two pops on a par 3? Even if playing full handicaps, nobody would be getting two pops on a par 3. On most courses, par 3s are rated 15-18 handicap holes.

 

[HitEmTrue]

> @rogolf said:

> Based on the original poster's information - _My handicap is 19.5 Brother #1 is 23.7 Brother #2 is 29.0 Nephew is 11.6_

> If playing off the low 'capper, how is anyone getting two pops on a par 3? Even if playing full handicaps, nobody would be getting two pops on a par 3. On most courses, par 3s are rated 15-18 handicap holes.

>

 

Correct...the OP even said that nobody got two pops, and that the nephew was complaining about the possibility.

[bladehunter]

> @HitEmTrue said:

> > @rogolf said:

> > Based on the original poster's information - _My handicap is 19.5 Brother #1 is 23.7 Brother #2 is 29.0 Nephew is 11.6_

> > If playing off the low 'capper, how is anyone getting two pops on a par 3? Even if playing full handicaps, nobody would be getting two pops on a par 3. On most courses, par 3s are rated 15-18 handicap holes.

> >

>

> Correct...the OP even said that nobody got two pops, and that the nephew was complaining about the possibility.

 

It has obviously happened or else why would the nephew complain about it ?

[bladehunter]

> @Shilgy said:

> I would add to Blade.... If a guy is getting two pops on a hole the likelihood of him getting that par you need eagle to tie is really really slim.

 

> @nsxguy said:

> > @Shilgy said:

> > I would add to Blade.... If a guy is getting two pops on a hole the likelihood of him getting that par you need eagle to tie is really really slim.

>

> Ya think ? LOL

>

> He bets on the match and excludes holes he doesn't like ? Does it have to be a "2 pop" par 3 or can he exclude any hole he doesn't like ?

>

> And how does one even do that ? Does he get to that hole and say "This hole doesn't count for the match ?" Or does he check before the round and says "Wait, you get 2 pops on 12 so it's a 17 hole match and that hole doesn't count' ?

>

> Good luck getting a game in my neck of the woods trying to get away with that stuff. LMAO

>

>

He mentions playing for so much $ a hole. You’d simply say before hand “ were slick on 17 I’m not giving 2 pops on a par 3 “. If he doesn’t like it. No action for the day. No reason why one opinion holds more water than the other. If he submits to 17 holes of stroke concession. Why can’t he object to 1 hole as being unfair? After all. It’s a local money game. The rules of golf do not say anything against negotiating local rules. In fact it allows for it. If that’s the guys one ask. You really aren’t trying to be fair if you don’t consider it.

 

[SNIPERBBB]

> @rogolf said:

> Based on the original poster's information - _My handicap is 19.5 Brother #1 is 23.7 Brother #2 is 29.0 Nephew is 11.6_

> If playing off the low 'capper, how is anyone getting two pops on a par 3? Even if playing full handicaps, nobody would be getting two pops on a par 3. On most courses, par 3s are rated 15-18 handicap holes.

>

 

I don't know about three as I play some really difficult and long par threes here locally. My home course the par 3s are rated 13,9,14,8(which I aced last night) respectively so while they aren't likey to get double popped much unless you're playing against a max capper it's possible.

[HitEmTrue]

> @bladehunter said:

> > @HitEmTrue said:

> > > @rogolf said:

> > > Based on the original poster's information - _My handicap is 19.5 Brother #1 is 23.7 Brother #2 is 29.0 Nephew is 11.6_

> > > If playing off the low 'capper, how is anyone getting two pops on a par 3? Even if playing full handicaps, nobody would be getting two pops on a par 3. On most courses, par 3s are rated 15-18 handicap holes.

> > >

> >

> > Correct...the OP even said that nobody got two pops, and that the nephew was complaining about the possibility.

>

> It has obviously happened or else why would the nephew complain about it ?

 

Because he thought it *might* happen?

[Windlaker_1]

Boy, quite the discussion I started. Didn’t think it would take off like this.

Yes, I don’t remember us ever getting two strokes on a Par 3...ever. Nephew is doing whatever he can to save stokes where ever he can.

I agree, always “giving up strokes” could weigh on your mind. I’d LOVE to have that problem to see if it’s true.

What I gathering from the 100+ replies is this. The Handicap should work best for the group as is. If there is some sort of anomoly (2 strokes on a Par 3)

it would be within the norm to either A, drop it to 1 stroke or B, do not bet on that hole.

[bladehunter]

> @Windlaker_1 said:

> Boy, quite the discussion I started. Didn’t think it would take off like this.

> Yes, I don’t remember us ever getting two strokes on a Par 3...ever. Nephew is doing whatever he can to save stokes where ever he can.

> I agree, always “giving up strokes” could weigh on your mind. I’d LOVE to have that problem to see if it’s true.

> What I gathering from the 100+ replies is this. The Handicap should work best for the group as is. If there is some sort of anomoly (2 strokes on a Par 3)

> it would be within the norm to either A, drop it to 1 stroke or B, do not bet on that hole.

 

Perfectly reasonable.

 

 

[SNIPERBBB]

> @Windlaker_1 said:

> Boy, quite the discussion I started. Didn’t think it would take off like this.

> Yes, I don’t remember us ever getting two strokes on a Par 3...ever. Nephew is doing whatever he can to save stokes where ever he can.

> I agree, always “giving up strokes” could weigh on your mind. I’d LOVE to have that problem to see if it’s true.

> What I gathering from the 100+ replies is this. The Handicap should work best for the group as is. If there is some sort of anomoly (2 strokes on a Par 3)

> it would be within the norm to either A, drop it to 1 stroke or B, do not bet on that hole.

 

Well if you played without your nephew and just with your brothers, you'd be giving 4-10 strokes to your brothers...

[Windlaker_1]

Sniper, I could live with that.

Brother #1 and I are usually within a few strokes of each other, so that would be OK.

Brother #2 shows no signs of improving.