What was the issue with Hale Irwin? (Tour history)

[JAMH03]

I got the impression that Sandy was full of it.

 

 

 

[Cwebb]

> @Lodestone said:

> > @Cwebb said:

> > > @Lodestone said:

> > > > @JAMH03 said:

> > > > > @iBanesto said:

> > > > > Irwin won on one of the toughest set ups of all time at Winged Foot in 1974.

> > > > >

> > > > > An underrated win.

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > @iBanesto nice post thanks!

> > > >

> > > > 44 year old AP ten years removed from last major

> > > > 24 Tom Watson

> > > > 29 Hale Irwin.

> > > >

> > > > Tiger turning 44 this year...

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > >

> > > > @iBanesto said:

> > > > Irwin won on one of the toughest set ups of all time at Winged Foot in 1974.

> > > >

> > > > An underrated win.

> > > >

> > > >

> > >

> > > Great video...never saw it before. Thanks for posting. I don't buy the line that that JM's 63 the year before had no impact on how the course was set up. I don't have any problem with setting it up the way they did, and having a +7 win it. I think it validates the set-up that a golfer of Hale Irwin's caliber prevailed. He validated it by continuing on to have an excellent career.

> > > I'm not sure what I think of the set-ups that resulted in Lee Jantzen and Andy North's wins....were they really "the best golfers" out there? How does that even work?

> > > I wasn't much of a TV golf fan in '74, but I'd bet money that if they set up a course now, so that a +7 would win, I'd find that very entertaining to watch.

> >

> > Was Corey Pavin the best golfer that week, when he won the U.S Open? Was Jason Dufner the best that week, when he won the PGA? The answer is yes they were, because they shot the lowest score. The way it works, is that if you're good enough to qualify and you have a great week and shoot a lower total than everyone else, then you win. That's the beauty of golf and sports in general. It's not won on "paper", is unpredictable, and the highest ranked players and teams don't always win

>

> Low score determines the winner, .but that logic holds true for any and every set-up imaginable. If the winning score were -50, or +50, there will be a winner, by definition. I got the impression from Sandy Tatum's words that the intent was not to merely establish a "winner", but to determine "the best golfer", and that he felt smugly satisfied that the way they set up WF in '74 did just that, not only establish a winner, but establish the "best golfer".

> I think that to establish the "best golfer" you have to set up a track that tests ALL aspects of one's game. Length, accuracy, precision etc etc. Certain layouts are going to give a premium to certain aspects of the game, and maybe give a pass to others. I get the impression from Tatum's words that he felt they succeeded at that. I wouldn't disagree with him, since the guy who won went on to do well over many years.

> I don't think they always succeed at that. If the fairways are too narrow, and the rough too punitive, then it rewards the straight hitter. Which is fine, but I think it identifies the straightest hitter, not necessarily the "best" golfer.

> My point with Jantzen and especially North, is that they each won twice at US Open set-ups, but North never won ANYWHERE else, and Jantzen only a few times. I think the argument can be made that those set-ups highly favored their particular skill sets, as opposed to providing a comprehensive test of all of the aspects of the game.

 

A major championship is generally at a course that is more difficult than a regular tour event. Some players do well on tougher courses and those where a par can be just as valuable as a birdie. I like seeing the best players competing on courses where accuracy is at a premium. Whether one of the longest or not, they have to show a level of consistent accuracy. Missing a fairway by a lot and still having a clear look at the green, is not really major championship golf, to me.

 

This is why many major champions over the decades, have not been some of the longest drivers....and I think it makes the competition more interesting. The major layouts back in the day, were just as long as today's, relative to the ball and club technology

[Lodestone]

> @JAMH03 said:

> I got the impression that Sandy was full of it.

>

>

>

You would not be alone in that sentiment.

 

 

[grm24]

> @Lodestone said:

> My point with Jantzen and especially North, is that they each won twice at US Open set-ups, **but North never won ANYWHERE else,** and Jantzen only a few times. I think the argument can be made that those set-ups highly favored their particular skill sets, as opposed to providing a comprehensive test of all of the aspects of the game.

 

North did win another PGA Tour event. Before his two US Open wins he won the 1977 Westchester Classic. Janzen won 6 other times including The Players Championship.

 

 

[Lagavulin62]

> @grm24 said:

> > @Lodestone said:

> > My point with Jantzen and especially North, is that they each won twice at US Open set-ups, **but North never won ANYWHERE else,** and Jantzen only a few times. I think the argument can be made that those set-ups highly favored their particular skill sets, as opposed to providing a comprehensive test of all of the aspects of the game.

>

> North did win another PGA Tour event. Before his two US Open wins he won the 1977 Westchester Classic. Janzen won 6 other times including The Players Championship.

>

>

 

Jantzen also won Westchester in 94. A really wonderful tournament. I went several times in the late 80’s. Always attracted an international field. I really miss it.

[Lodestone]

> @Cwebb said:

> > @Lodestone said:

> > > @Cwebb said:

> > > > @Lodestone said:

> > > > > @JAMH03 said:

> > > > > > @iBanesto said:

> > > > > > Irwin won on one of the toughest set ups of all time at Winged Foot in 1974.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > An underrated win.

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > @iBanesto nice post thanks!

> > > > >

> > > > > 44 year old AP ten years removed from last major

> > > > > 24 Tom Watson

> > > > > 29 Hale Irwin.

> > > > >

> > > > > Tiger turning 44 this year...

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > > @iBanesto said:

> > > > > Irwin won on one of the toughest set ups of all time at Winged Foot in 1974.

> > > > >

> > > > > An underrated win.

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > Great video...never saw it before. Thanks for posting. I don't buy the line that that JM's 63 the year before had no impact on how the course was set up. I don't have any problem with setting it up the way they did, and having a +7 win it. I think it validates the set-up that a golfer of Hale Irwin's caliber prevailed. He validated it by continuing on to have an excellent career.

> > > > I'm not sure what I think of the set-ups that resulted in Lee Jantzen and Andy North's wins....were they really "the best golfers" out there? How does that even work?

> > > > I wasn't much of a TV golf fan in '74, but I'd bet money that if they set up a course now, so that a +7 would win, I'd find that very entertaining to watch.

> > >

> > > Was Corey Pavin the best golfer that week, when he won the U.S Open? Was Jason Dufner the best that week, when he won the PGA? The answer is yes they were, because they shot the lowest score. The way it works, is that if you're good enough to qualify and you have a great week and shoot a lower total than everyone else, then you win. That's the beauty of golf and sports in general. It's not won on "paper", is unpredictable, and the highest ranked players and teams don't always win

> >

> > Low score determines the winner, .but that logic holds true for any and every set-up imaginable. If the winning score were -50, or +50, there will be a winner, by definition. I got the impression from Sandy Tatum's words that the intent was not to merely establish a "winner", but to determine "the best golfer", and that he felt smugly satisfied that the way they set up WF in '74 did just that, not only establish a winner, but establish the "best golfer".

> > I think that to establish the "best golfer" you have to set up a track that tests ALL aspects of one's game. Length, accuracy, precision etc etc. Certain layouts are going to give a premium to certain aspects of the game, and maybe give a pass to others. I get the impression from Tatum's words that he felt they succeeded at that. I wouldn't disagree with him, since the guy who won went on to do well over many years.

> > I don't think they always succeed at that. If the fairways are too narrow, and the rough too punitive, then it rewards the straight hitter. Which is fine, but I think it identifies the straightest hitter, not necessarily the "best" golfer.

> > My point with Jantzen and especially North, is that they each won twice at US Open set-ups, but North never won ANYWHERE else, and Jantzen only a few times. I think the argument can be made that those set-ups highly favored their particular skill sets, as opposed to providing a comprehensive test of all of the aspects of the game.

>

> A major championship is generally at a course that is more difficult than a regular tour event. Some players do well on tougher courses and those where a par can be just as valuable as a birdie. I like seeing the best players competing on courses where accuracy is at a premium. Whether one of the longest or not, they have to show a level of consistent accuracy. Missing a fairway by a lot and still having a clear look at the green, is not really major championship golf, to me.

>

> This is why many major champions over the decades, have not been some of the longest drivers....and I think it makes the competition more interesting. The major layouts back in the day, were just as long as today's, relative to the ball and club technology

No disagreement with you there.

Difficulty can be accomplished in different ways, and consequently be more or less punitive to certain skill sets. Long courses are more difficult for some than others, likewise "tight" courses.

> @grm24 said:

> > @Lodestone said:

> > My point with Jantzen and especially North, is that they each won twice at US Open set-ups, **but North never won ANYWHERE else,** and Jantzen only a few times. I think the argument can be made that those set-ups highly favored their particular skill sets, as opposed to providing a comprehensive test of all of the aspects of the game.

>

> North did win another PGA Tour event. Before his two US Open wins he won the 1977 Westchester Classic. Janzen won 6 other times including The Players Championship.

>

>

I stand corrected. I knew Jantzen had won a couple events, but not 6, and did not realize he'd won the Players.

I also did not realize North had won an event. I'll take back what I said about Jantzen but my point remains about North.

I'm perfectly OK with the USGA setting up their Open to reward a particular type of play. It would be more accurate if they acknowledged it, rather than claiming it identifies "the best golfer". The "best golfer" in the field has won it a number of times, but not to give credence to the way they set it up, but rather, to the few who have won there as well as won on other, differently laid out venues. At times, the best golfer in the field might have been Arnie, or Jack, or Tiger, but it was never Andy North.

[Hankshank]

> @johnnypro said:

> > @Hankshank said:

> > Don’t know why, but I found myself googling Hale Irwin, found his Wiki page and was surprised seeing how much he won on Seniors, and comparingly how few titles he had on the PGA. Was there something wrong when he was in his prime?

> >

> > For Langer, the other player that has dominated the Seniors tour but didnt have 30+ victories on the PGA tour the answer is easy. Putting yips. Those costed him at least 10 big titles. Otherwise, his game was razor sharp. And then he found the broomstick and the rest is history.

> >

> > Irwin is a little before my time. Ok, I played most of the 80’s but there wasnt any televised golf, more than an occasional major, in my home country. Articles, but mostly about the big names. I remember seeing his last victory at 49, after a long break, assuring that there is such a thing as muscle memory. But apart from a sloppy putt miss that costed him a BO in 84, i have no memory of him in his prime.

> >

> > Looking at his winning record he absolutely ruled the Seniors tour, even more profoundly than Langer. But, albeit 3 US Opens, he had surprisingly few wins on the PGA tour. I remember him from the 80`s as something like a Furyk, OWGR top 10 guy maybe, but never one of the Big Three or the Big Five.

> > Why did he win so much more on the seniors? Did he have any issues with his game that he sorted out late in his career?

>

> The guy won three US Opens!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

> Not one, not two.......THREE.

> How many people can say that?????

>

> No one cares if he won comparatively few regular tour events.

> He was a fairways and greens guy, not long but straight, above average short game, and mentally VERY TOUGH.

> He had the prefect temperament for the US Open.

>

>

 

Ok, so Koepka has 2 US opens and 2 PGA's now. It took Phil like 10 years on the tour before that jump on the 18th@Augusta. Is Koepka,so far, a better golfer than Phil was, at the same age? Winning a Major involves a great deal of luck. What if Stensons tee shot had rolled 5 more yards on the 18th@Troon? I don't think that many would see Brooks as one of the greatest golfers of our time if he quit now. Paddy Harrington??

 

To win many events, especially in the same year, shows that you are one of the big three, big five or the Tiger.

 

That said, I do not say anything about how Irwin did in the 70's and 80's, just downtoning the importance of major wins a little.

You who remember him in his prime, was he ever considered DJ good? One of the guys who would be in and out of the numero uno spot?

Who were the really big names back then? Jack obviously, and Tom Watson. Ballesteros a little later. Who else? Faldo? Dont remember really how Jack did in the seniors tour but I do remember him playing. And Tom still plays. So its not like all the really big guys quit at 50. I remember my impression being somewhat surprised around 95-2000, that Irwin won more than Jack and Tom who I considered being greater in their hey days. But Jack was a little older than Hale and Tom a little younger.

 

You CAN come up with good stuff even at higher age. Magnus Person, probably the biggest scandinavian talent ever(heard of him?) who was a super prodigy at around 18 yo, lost his game for some reason at 25-30 YO. Played on smaller tours,and finally became a teaching pro. Teaching other guys he discovered things about his own swing, and at 50+ he started to play well again. Is now one of the leading players on the European Seniors Tour. I did maybe take a too negative turn asking for potential problems for Irwin in he hey days, maybe it was the other way around, that he found good things at the time when going into senior years? Apart from maintaining a good physique?

[Lodestone]

> @Hankshank said:

> > @johnnypro said:

> > > @Hankshank said:

> > > Don’t know why, but I found myself googling Hale Irwin, found his Wiki page and was surprised seeing how much he won on Seniors, and comparingly how few titles he had on the PGA. Was there something wrong when he was in his prime?

> > >

> > > For Langer, the other player that has dominated the Seniors tour but didnt have 30+ victories on the PGA tour the answer is easy. Putting yips. Those costed him at least 10 big titles. Otherwise, his game was razor sharp. And then he found the broomstick and the rest is history.

> > >

> > > Irwin is a little before my time. Ok, I played most of the 80’s but there wasnt any televised golf, more than an occasional major, in my home country. Articles, but mostly about the big names. I remember seeing his last victory at 49, after a long break, assuring that there is such a thing as muscle memory. But apart from a sloppy putt miss that costed him a BO in 84, i have no memory of him in his prime.

> > >

> > > Looking at his winning record he absolutely ruled the Seniors tour, even more profoundly than Langer. But, albeit 3 US Opens, he had surprisingly few wins on the PGA tour. I remember him from the 80`s as something like a Furyk, OWGR top 10 guy maybe, but never one of the Big Three or the Big Five.

> > > Why did he win so much more on the seniors? Did he have any issues with his game that he sorted out late in his career?

> >

> > The guy won three US Opens!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

> > Not one, not two.......THREE.

> > How many people can say that?????

> >

> > No one cares if he won comparatively few regular tour events.

> > He was a fairways and greens guy, not long but straight, above average short game, and mentally VERY TOUGH.

> > He had the prefect temperament for the US Open.

> >

> >

>

> Ok, so Koepka has 2 US opens and 2 PGA's now. It took Phil like 10 years on the tour before that jump on the 18th@Augusta. Is Koepka,so far, a better golfer than Phil was, at the same age? Winning a Major involves a great deal of luck. What if Stensons tee shot had rolled 5 more yards on the 18th@Troon? I don't think that many would see Brooks as one of the greatest golfers of our time if he quit now. Paddy Harrington??

>

> To win many events, especially in the same year, shows that you are one of the big three, big five or the Tiger.

>

> That said, I do not say anything about how Irwin did in the 70's and 80's, just downtoning the importance of major wins a little.

> You who remember him in his prime, was he ever considered DJ good? One of the guys who would be in and out of the numero uno spot?

> Who were the really big names back then? Jack obviously, and Tom Watson. Ballesteros a little later. Who else? Faldo? Dont remember really how Jack did in the seniors tour but I do remember him playing. And Tom still plays. So its not like all the really big guys quit at 50. I remember my impression being somewhat surprised around 95-2000, that Irwin won more than Jack and Tom who I considered being greater in their hey days. But Jack was a little older than Hale and Tom a little younger.

>

> You CAN come up with good stuff even at higher age. Magnus Person, probably the biggest scandinavian talent ever(heard of him?) who was a super prodigy at around 18 yo, lost his game for some reason at 25-30 YO. Played on smaller tours,and finally became a teaching pro. Teaching other guys he discovered things about his own swing, and at 50+ he started to play well again. Is now one of the leading players on the European Seniors Tour. I did maybe take a too negative turn asking for potential problems for Irwin in he hey days, maybe it was the other way around, that he found good things at the time when going into senior years? Apart from maintaining a good physique?

 

The really big names of the 70s ? Besides the ones you mentioned, Johnny Miller was very big for a few years, Trevino was as well. As far as getting the kind of hype that guys like DJ might get now, there might be a couple of factors in play there. First of all, the PGA was not pumping out as much PR material then as it does now. In the 70s and 80s if you weren't marketing yourself, or did not have a clothing deal (I seem to remember "Golfer Johnny Miller" modeling clothes for Sears), you weren't getting much ink. What ink was out there for free seemed to be reserved for Jack, Trevino, Arnie who was declining as far as winning but was still Arnie. Tom Weisskopf got a lot more press than his record warranted, because he looked like he should win more. Long and tall, and could hit it a mile...and probably won less than DJ, but the writers seemed to just want him to do better than he ever really did.

Jack played a lot of senior events, but he had for many years played a lighter schedule than the grinders who needed the money more. He was also making a lot of money with his architect business. Hale Irwin had a great PGA career, but he was a professional golfer first, and like a lot of guys from the 70s, 80s and beyond who made up the bulk of the Senior Tour, playing golf was how he made his money, and he was going to milk that cow as long as he could. There were guys who had their turn dominating the senior tour who had far less success on the Big Tour. Gil Morgan (the optometrist) comes to mind. As I recall, before Hale, Morgan dominated for a few years. I don't remember him winning much at all on the PGA regular tour.

I think the less demanding 3 day schedule, less play from the top players of their time, and shorter set-ups of the senior tour maybe lead to a different type of player having more success than they had on the big tour. And face it, we all age differently. Some players retained their flexibility and other physical skills longer than others. Some by being more careful with their lifestyle choices (booze and cigarettes and exercise come to mind) and others just based on lucky genetics.

The top collegiate golfers don't always stay on top in the pro tours, and those who are the best of the 20-somethings don't always stay on top when they are in their 30s and 40s...so in some sense, that variable of how we progress decade by decade is just extended into our 50s etc.

[Cwebb]

There's actually been several guys who have had much more success on the over 50 tour, than they did before then. Take a look at Gil Morgan's career, as another example

[varno]

> @cardoustie said:

> > @"Darth Putter" said:

> > > @Hankshank said:

> > > Having, as the European I am, only a rudimentary knowledge of American football, it surprises me that he was short from tee, hearing that he played college football. When I see an occasional match, I see guys that look like being able to hit the ball cross-atlantic.

> >

> > He played defensive back, those are among the smallest men out on the field.

> >

> > Hale Irwin is perhaps the best long iron player ever. As mentioned he was very straight off the tee, won the US Open three times, won at Harbour Town three times, won The Memorial twice and he also won at Butler National, Westchester and the Crosby. If it was a tough course, you'd see him near the top of the leaderboard.

> >

> > Another fun fact, with wins in the USA, Brazil, South Africa, Japan, the World Match Play at Wentworth and the Australian PGA he is one of just five golfers with wins on all six continents.

> >

> >

> Long irons? Almost all historians will say Miller, Nicklaus and Hogan

>

 

Not a fanboy but one Tiger Woods has a seat at or close to the head of that table.

[playa]

> @tiderider said:

> yeah, i don't know how 20 wins = "few wins" ... 23rd highest total, by number ... 3 majors ... one of the oldest people to win a tour event at 49 ...

> i'd say he did very well for himself ...

>

> as for the sr tour, didn't play against his top competition from the regular tour, as mentioned ... but he was a very competitive player who maintained his body/health, so maybe that helped him a bit more than others ...

 

Yeah not exactly sure why OP thinks anybody who dominates the Seniors should have 30 regular tour victories on the CV? 23 including 3 US Opens is a HOF career in anyone's language.

 

The OP should look at Monty if he wants to see someone who failed miserably on the regular tour then beat up on old blokes.

[Awsi Dooger]

> @"Big Cat 3" said:

> Hale Irwin and the great Dick Anderson of the Miami Dolphins were the starting safeties for Colorado in the mid 60’s.

> 3 majors and 20 plus wins is a quite a tour career, he may have been understated because he was rather bland and blunt in play and personality ... always loved his quote about never drawing the ball “ I try to draw it and I just slice it more ... so I just keep slicing it”

 

When I was a kid my dad bought Dolphins season tickets for the family beginning in 1972. Not bad timing. Anderson and Bill Stanfill were great defenders who had Hall of Fame ability but injury shortened careers. With Anderson I think it happened in the Pro Bowl, of all places.

 

Before Irwin won anything of note, I remember Anderson predicting stardom for him. It was a well known story in Miami that Irwin and Anderson were the starting safeties for Colorado. Anderson was a very good golfer in his own right. But he would always scoff at questions when asked to compare his game to Irwin's.

 

Many great replies in this thread. Irwin was indeed like a less exaggerated version of Bruce Lietzke. Great repetitive mid-height cut. He was another one of the gutty guys from that era who may not have scared you beforehand, but once he was in contention you knew he wouldn't back down. I didn't like those guys, to tell you the truth. Raymond Floyd kind of ruined the heavily anticipated 1976 Masters, after the famous 1975 renewal. Likewise Hale Irwin kind of made the 1974 US Open boring after so much attention to the event following 1973.

 

I'm not surprised at the anecdote regarding Mark O'Meara. That's kind of the way I always viewed Irwin, as someone who knew how to say the correct things publicly to maintain an image, but kind of a jerk behind the scenes. Not many players seemed to be close friends with him. I desperate rooted for Mike Donald in that 1990 US Open. After Irwin barely pulled it out, he said something like, "Poor guy. I almost wish he had won."

 

That's probably a bit harsher than he actually said it, but my words are closer to what he meant. I remember cursing at the screen.

 

A year later I wanted so badly for Bernhard Langer to make that putt to pull out the Ryder Cup at Kiawah. Irwin would have been part of the subplot as the American who gave it away, along with Calcavecchia. Irwin hit a weird tee shot on that 18th hole. Then it found safety out of nowhere, kind of like Tiger vs. Bob May.

 

Irwin then hit a wonderfully nervous scooped chip. Never threatened par. I really wish he could have lived with a failure like that. It might even have impacted his senior tour career.

 

I guess I'm in a foul mood after the USC girl butchered the putting greens toward blowing the quarterfinal against Arizona, and then Duke of all teams went on to win the thing. If any word triggers the profanity filter around here, it should be Duke.

[tiderider]

> @playa said:

> > @tiderider said:

> > yeah, i don't know how 20 wins = "few wins" ... 23rd highest total, by number ... 3 majors ... one of the oldest people to win a tour event at 49 ...

> > i'd say he did very well for himself ...

> >

> > as for the sr tour, didn't play against his top competition from the regular tour, as mentioned ... but he was a very competitive player who maintained his body/health, so maybe that helped him a bit more than others ...

>

> Yeah not exactly sure why OP thinks anybody who dominates the Seniors should have 30 regular tour victories on the CV? 23 including 3 US Opens is a HOF career in anyone's language.

>

> The OP should look at Monty if he wants to see someone who failed miserably on the regular tour then beat up on old blokes.

 

?? ... monte won 31 times on the euro regular tour ... that's a "miserable" fail? ... he's won 6 tournaments on the seniors tour, but certainly hasn't beat up anyone ...

[Lodestone]

> @playa said:

> > @tiderider said:

> > yeah, i don't know how 20 wins = "few wins" ... 23rd highest total, by number ... 3 majors ... one of the oldest people to win a tour event at 49 ...

> > i'd say he did very well for himself ...

> >

> > as for the sr tour, didn't play against his top competition from the regular tour, as mentioned ... but he was a very competitive player who maintained his body/health, so maybe that helped him a bit more than others ...

>

> Yeah not exactly sure why OP thinks anybody who dominates the Seniors should have 30 regular tour victories on the CV? 23 including 3 US Opens is a HOF career in anyone's language.

>

> The OP should look at Monty if he wants to see someone who failed miserably on the regular tour then beat up on old blokes.

 

He may have "failed miserably" on the PGA Tour, and he never won a major, but he did have 31 Euro Tour wins, and 7 straight Orders of Merit on that tour. not too shabby...

[Hankshank]

Now, hold your horses, gentlemen. Irwin was before my time. So I have no memory of him. so I was just wondering, a guy that won like 7-8 tournaments a year on the Champions, I expected to see like a year or two of tour dominance also in his prime. And I had Broomstick Langer in mind. And just wondering if he found something out going into his Senior years.

I was more interested in Irwin than in the shortcomings of Irwing.

 

[Hankshank]

Monty is my junior, I have seen him live quite a lot, and I saw no golfer behave as bad towards the crowds as mr Montgomerie. A fantastic golfer, but I did not spill any tears when he choked in Majors. As the RC captain he won me over somewhat. ”When the devil gets old, he get religious”.

[Lodestone]

> @Hankshank said:

> Now, hold your horses, gentlemen. Irwin was before my time. So I have no memory of him. so I was just wondering, a guy that won like 7-8 tournaments a year on the Champions, I expected to see like a year or two of tour dominance also in his prime. And I had Broomstick Langer in mind. And just wondering if he found something out going into his Senior years.

> I was more interested in Irwin than in the shortcomings of Irwing.

>

I'm not sure what you are saying about Bernhard. Are you saying that his Senior Tour Dominance followed a more spectacular regular career than Hale's? I'd say their regular tour careers were pretty similar. Longer had 2 majors, Hale 3, Langer had more wins, but they were almost all on the Euro Tour, whereas Hale's were on the PGA....

[Hankshank]

> @Lodestone said:

> > @Hankshank said:

> > Now, hold your horses, gentlemen. Irwin was before my time. So I have no memory of him. so I was just wondering, a guy that won like 7-8 tournaments a year on the Champions, I expected to see like a year or two of tour dominance also in his prime. And I had Broomstick Langer in mind. And just wondering if he found something out going into his Senior years.

> > I was more interested in Irwin than in the shortcomings of Irwing.

> >

> I'm not sure what you are saying about Bernhard. Are you saying that his Senior Tour Dominance followed a more spectacular regular career than Hale's? I'd say their regular tour careers were pretty similar. Longer had 2 majors, Hale 3, Langer had more wins, but they were almost all on the Euro Tour, whereas Hale's were on the PGA....

 

I'm just saying that something improved his senior tour career that was an Issue in his regular tours career.

[RobertBaron]

I’ll never forgive Hale Irwin for The Incident.

 

When I was about 11 or 12, I went to my first tour event The GHO as it was called then. It was Sunday and the great Hale Irwin was out of contention coming down the stretch of the final round.

 

My friend and I happened to find a great position on the ropes of the walkway off the 18th green. Hale Irwin just happens to be finishing up his round and is walking off 18. I wasn’t super knowledgeable about golf or golf history back then, but I knew who Hale Irwin was. And I knew he was an all time great.

 

I held out a hat or a golf ball or a scorecard or something and a sharpie hoping he would sign it. I asked him politely as he strode by, “Please may I have your autograph Mr. Irwin?”

 

And he bruskly dismissed me, a child, with a curt wave of his hand.

 

I’ll never forgive him for that.

[Ferguson]

 

 

> @RobertBaron said:

> I’ll never forgive Hale Irwin for The Incident.

>

> When I was about 11 or 12, I went to my first tour event The GHO as it was called then. It was Sunday and the great Hale Irwin was out of contention coming down the stretch of the final round.

>

> My friend and I happened to find a great position on the ropes of the walkway off the 18th green. Hale Irwin just happens to be finishing up his round and is walking off 18. I wasn’t super knowledgeable about golf or golf history back then, but I knew who Hale Irwin was. And I knew he was an all time great.

>

> I held out a hat or a golf ball or a scorecard or something and a sharpie hoping he would sign it. I asked him politely as he strode by, “Please may I have your autograph Mr. Irwin?”

>

> And he bruskly dismissed me, a child, with a curt wave of his hand.

>

> I’ll never forgive him for that.

 

I believe he was suffering from Groats at the time. Cut him some slack.

[Lodestone]

> @Ferguson said:

>

>

> > @RobertBaron said:

> > I’ll never forgive Hale Irwin for The Incident.

> >

> > When I was about 11 or 12, I went to my first tour event The GHO as it was called then. It was Sunday and the great Hale Irwin was out of contention coming down the stretch of the final round.

> >

> > My friend and I happened to find a great position on the ropes of the walkway off the 18th green. Hale Irwin just happens to be finishing up his round and is walking off 18. I wasn’t super knowledgeable about golf or golf history back then, but I knew who Hale Irwin was. And I knew he was an all time great.

> >

> > I held out a hat or a golf ball or a scorecard or something and a sharpie hoping he would sign it. I asked him politely as he strode by, “Please may I have your autograph Mr. Irwin?”

> >

> > And he bruskly dismissed me, a child, with a curt wave of his hand.

> >

> > I’ll never forgive him for that.

>

> I believe he was suffering from Groats at the time. Cut him some slack.

 

If he was healthy enough to play golf, he was healthy enough to sign an autograph. Unless of course he was in urgent need of a bathroom, which Groats Syndrome can cause. But still, I think he should have risked it, rather than leaving an emotional scar that has endured to adulthood. On the other hand, had he risked it and it turned out badly, that would have also scarred the young RobertBaron, so you have that whole "risk-reward" thing. Ok, cut him a break.

[Ferguson]

> @Lodestone said:

> > @Ferguson said:

> >

> >

> > > @RobertBaron said:

> > > I’ll never forgive Hale Irwin for The Incident.

> > >

> > > When I was about 11 or 12, I went to my first tour event The GHO as it was called then. It was Sunday and the great Hale Irwin was out of contention coming down the stretch of the final round.

> > >

> > > My friend and I happened to find a great position on the ropes of the walkway off the 18th green. Hale Irwin just happens to be finishing up his round and is walking off 18. I wasn’t super knowledgeable about golf or golf history back then, but I knew who Hale Irwin was. And I knew he was an all time great.

> > >

> > > I held out a hat or a golf ball or a scorecard or something and a sharpie hoping he would sign it. I asked him politely as he strode by, “Please may I have your autograph Mr. Irwin?”

> > >

> > > And he bruskly dismissed me, a child, with a curt wave of his hand.

> > >

> > > I’ll never forgive him for that.

> >

> > I believe he was suffering from Groats at the time. Cut him some slack.

>

> If he was healthy enough to play golf, he was healthy enough to sign an autograph. Unless of course he was in urgent need of a bathroom, which Groats Syndrome can cause. But still, I think he should have risked it, rather than leaving an emotional scar that has endured to adulthood. On the other hand, had he risked it and it turned out badly, that would have also scarred the young RobertBaron, so you have that whole "risk-reward" thing. Ok, cut him a break.

 

You know as well as I do that Groats can cause erratic behavior. The person can be nice one minute and then agitated the next.

 

He got the Groats under control after leaving the PGA Tour. Sally, his wife since 1968, found Dr. E. Fritz Roberts. Suffice to say their marriage was strong, unlike many "tour marriages" of today. Along with herbal therapy and a new diet, Hale beat Groats and went on to win over 40 times on the Senior Tour. After getting the Groats under control, he was what fans would call **"cordial and inviting"** when it came to autographs.

[Lodestone]

> @Ferguson said:

> > @Lodestone said:

> > > @Ferguson said:

> > >

> > >

> > > > @RobertBaron said:

> > > > I’ll never forgive Hale Irwin for The Incident.

> > > >

> > > > When I was about 11 or 12, I went to my first tour event The GHO as it was called then. It was Sunday and the great Hale Irwin was out of contention coming down the stretch of the final round.

> > > >

> > > > My friend and I happened to find a great position on the ropes of the walkway off the 18th green. Hale Irwin just happens to be finishing up his round and is walking off 18. I wasn’t super knowledgeable about golf or golf history back then, but I knew who Hale Irwin was. And I knew he was an all time great.

> > > >

> > > > I held out a hat or a golf ball or a scorecard or something and a sharpie hoping he would sign it. I asked him politely as he strode by, “Please may I have your autograph Mr. Irwin?”

> > > >

> > > > And he bruskly dismissed me, a child, with a curt wave of his hand.

> > > >

> > > > I’ll never forgive him for that.

> > >

> > > I believe he was suffering from Groats at the time. Cut him some slack.

> >

> > If he was healthy enough to play golf, he was healthy enough to sign an autograph. Unless of course he was in urgent need of a bathroom, which Groats Syndrome can cause. But still, I think he should have risked it, rather than leaving an emotional scar that has endured to adulthood. On the other hand, had he risked it and it turned out badly, that would have also scarred the young RobertBaron, so you have that whole "risk-reward" thing. Ok, cut him a break.

>

> You know as well as I do that Groats can cause erratic behavior. The person can be nice one minute and then agitated the next.

>

> He got the Groats under control after leaving the PGA Tour. Sally, his wife since 1968, found Dr. E. Fritz Roberts. Suffice to say their marriage was strong, unlike many "tour marriages" of today. Along with herbal therapy and a new diet, Hale beat Groats and went on to win over 40 times on the Senior Tour. After getting the Groats under control, he was what fans would call **"cordial and inviting"** when it came to autographs.

 

Good info...Groats is a beetch.

[playa]

> @Lodestone said:

> > @playa said:

> > > @tiderider said:

> > > yeah, i don't know how 20 wins = "few wins" ... 23rd highest total, by number ... 3 majors ... one of the oldest people to win a tour event at 49 ...

> > > i'd say he did very well for himself ...

> > >

> > > as for the sr tour, didn't play against his top competition from the regular tour, as mentioned ... but he was a very competitive player who maintained his body/health, so maybe that helped him a bit more than others ...

> >

> > Yeah not exactly sure why OP thinks anybody who dominates the Seniors should have 30 regular tour victories on the CV? 23 including 3 US Opens is a HOF career in anyone's language.

> >

> > The OP should look at Monty if he wants to see someone who failed miserably on the regular tour then beat up on old blokes.

>

> He may have "failed miserably" on the PGA Tour, and he never won a major, but he did have 31 Euro Tour wins, and 7 straight Orders of Merit on that tour. not too shabby...

OP referred to PGA tour victories, of which Monty was a duck egg from who mows how many attempts. I didn't set the parameters, I just worked within them.

[mocokid]

guys on this forum are hard makuhs! nobody gets any slack for denying an autograph, etc. I bet there is a long list of athletes who refused to sign an autograph. And a long list of those who happily sign autographs. Guess what, lots of names on both lists. LOLOL

[johnnypro]

> @RobertBaron said:

> I’ll never forgive Hale Irwin for The Incident.

>

> When I was about 11 or 12, I went to my first tour event The GHO as it was called then. It was Sunday and the great Hale Irwin was out of contention coming down the stretch of the final round.

>

> My friend and I happened to find a great position on the ropes of the walkway off the 18th green. Hale Irwin just happens to be finishing up his round and is walking off 18. I wasn’t super knowledgeable about golf or golf history back then, but I knew who Hale Irwin was. And I knew he was an all time great.

>

> I held out a hat or a golf ball or a scorecard or something and a sharpie hoping he would sign it. I asked him politely as he strode by, “Please may I have your autograph Mr. Irwin?”

>

> And he bruskly dismissed me, a child, with a curt wave of his hand.

>

> I’ll never forgive him for that.

 

> @Hankshank said:

> > @Lodestone said:

> > > @Hankshank said:

> > > Now, hold your horses, gentlemen. Irwin was before my time. So I have no memory of him. so I was just wondering, a guy that won like 7-8 tournaments a year on the Champions, I expected to see like a year or two of tour dominance also in his prime. And I had Broomstick Langer in mind. And just wondering if he found something out going into his Senior years.

> > > I was more interested in Irwin than in the shortcomings of Irwing.

> > >

> > I'm not sure what you are saying about Bernhard. Are you saying that his Senior Tour Dominance followed a more spectacular regular career than Hale's? I'd say their regular tour careers were pretty similar. Longer had 2 majors, Hale 3, Langer had more wins, but they were almost all on the Euro Tour, whereas Hale's were on the PGA....

>

> I'm just saying that something improved his senior tour career that was an Issue in his regular tours career.

 

Yeah, something improved......he hit the senior tour several years before Nicklaus and Miller and Trevino did.

He had no "issues" on the regular tour: every part of his game was solid, if not spectacular. Only weakness was he might have been a little short off the tee but he compensated for that by being an excellent long iron player. He hit 2 iron into the 72nd hole at Winged Foot in 1974 (449 yard hole).

And he was mentally VERY tough.

Anybody who wins ****3**** US Opens has no "issues" in my book.

[Lodestone]

> @johnnypro said:

> > @RobertBaron said:

> > I’ll never forgive Hale Irwin for The Incident.

> >

> > When I was about 11 or 12, I went to my first tour event The GHO as it was called then. It was Sunday and the great Hale Irwin was out of contention coming down the stretch of the final round.

> >

> > My friend and I happened to find a great position on the ropes of the walkway off the 18th green. Hale Irwin just happens to be finishing up his round and is walking off 18. I wasn’t super knowledgeable about golf or golf history back then, but I knew who Hale Irwin was. And I knew he was an all time great.

> >

> > I held out a hat or a golf ball or a scorecard or something and a sharpie hoping he would sign it. I asked him politely as he strode by, “Please may I have your autograph Mr. Irwin?”

> >

> > And he bruskly dismissed me, a child, with a curt wave of his hand.

> >

> > I’ll never forgive him for that.

>

> > @Hankshank said:

> > > @Lodestone said:

> > > > @Hankshank said:

> > > > Now, hold your horses, gentlemen. Irwin was before my time. So I have no memory of him. so I was just wondering, a guy that won like 7-8 tournaments a year on the Champions, I expected to see like a year or two of tour dominance also in his prime. And I had Broomstick Langer in mind. And just wondering if he found something out going into his Senior years.

> > > > I was more interested in Irwin than in the shortcomings of Irwing.

> > > >

> > > I'm not sure what you are saying about Bernhard. Are you saying that his Senior Tour Dominance followed a more spectacular regular career than Hale's? I'd say their regular tour careers were pretty similar. Longer had 2 majors, Hale 3, Langer had more wins, but they were almost all on the Euro Tour, whereas Hale's were on the PGA....

> >

> > I'm just saying that something improved his senior tour career that was an Issue in his regular tours career.

>

> Yeah, something improved......he hit the senior tour several years before Nicklaus and Miller and Trevino did.

> He had no "issues" on the regular tour: every part of his game was solid, if not spectacular. Only weakness was he might have been a little short off the tee but he compensated for that by being an excellent long iron player. He hit 2 iron into the 72nd hole at Winged Foot in 1974 (449 yard hole).

> And he was mentally VERY tough.

> Anybody who wins ****3**** US Opens has no "issues" in my book.

 

Irwin hit the Senior Tour AFTER Trevino and Nicklaus, and Johnny Miller barely participated in the Senior Tour. Other than that you are spot on.

[Lodestone]

> @mocokid said:

> guys on this forum are hard makuhs! nobody gets any slack for denying an autograph, etc. I bet there is a long list of athletes who refused to sign an autograph. And a long list of those who happily sign autographs. Guess what, lots of names on both lists. LOLOL

 

 

I have never denied an autograph.

[grm24]

> @Lodestone said:

> > @johnnypro said:

> > > @RobertBaron said:

> > > I’ll never forgive Hale Irwin for The Incident.

> > >

> > > When I was about 11 or 12, I went to my first tour event The GHO as it was called then. It was Sunday and the great Hale Irwin was out of contention coming down the stretch of the final round.

> > >

> > > My friend and I happened to find a great position on the ropes of the walkway off the 18th green. Hale Irwin just happens to be finishing up his round and is walking off 18. I wasn’t super knowledgeable about golf or golf history back then, but I knew who Hale Irwin was. And I knew he was an all time great.

> > >

> > > I held out a hat or a golf ball or a scorecard or something and a sharpie hoping he would sign it. I asked him politely as he strode by, “Please may I have your autograph Mr. Irwin?”

> > >

> > > And he bruskly dismissed me, a child, with a curt wave of his hand.

> > >

> > > I’ll never forgive him for that.

> >

> > > @Hankshank said:

> > > > @Lodestone said:

> > > > > @Hankshank said:

> > > > > Now, hold your horses, gentlemen. Irwin was before my time. So I have no memory of him. so I was just wondering, a guy that won like 7-8 tournaments a year on the Champions, I expected to see like a year or two of tour dominance also in his prime. And I had Broomstick Langer in mind. And just wondering if he found something out going into his Senior years.

> > > > > I was more interested in Irwin than in the shortcomings of Irwing.

> > > > >

> > > > I'm not sure what you are saying about Bernhard. Are you saying that his Senior Tour Dominance followed a more spectacular regular career than Hale's? I'd say their regular tour careers were pretty similar. Longer had 2 majors, Hale 3, Langer had more wins, but they were almost all on the Euro Tour, whereas Hale's were on the PGA....

> > >

> > > I'm just saying that something improved his senior tour career that was an Issue in his regular tours career.

> >

> > Yeah, something improved......he hit the senior tour several years before Nicklaus and Miller and Trevino did.

> > He had no "issues" on the regular tour: every part of his game was solid, if not spectacular. Only weakness was he might have been a little short off the tee but he compensated for that by being an excellent long iron player. He hit 2 iron into the 72nd hole at Winged Foot in 1974 (449 yard hole).

> > And he was mentally VERY tough.

> > Anybody who wins ****3**** US Opens has no "issues" in my book.

>

> Irwin hit the Senior Tour AFTER Trevino and Nicklaus, and Johnny Miller barely participated in the Senior Tour. Other than that you are spot on.

Jack and Hale had a few seasons of overlap on the Senior Tour. Jack beat Hale by a shot for his last senior major in 1996. Irwin started on Senior Tour in 1995.

[Lodestone]

> @grm24 said:

> > @Lodestone said:

> > > @johnnypro said:

> > > > @RobertBaron said:

> > > > I’ll never forgive Hale Irwin for The Incident.

> > > >

> > > > When I was about 11 or 12, I went to my first tour event The GHO as it was called then. It was Sunday and the great Hale Irwin was out of contention coming down the stretch of the final round.

> > > >

> > > > My friend and I happened to find a great position on the ropes of the walkway off the 18th green. Hale Irwin just happens to be finishing up his round and is walking off 18. I wasn’t super knowledgeable about golf or golf history back then, but I knew who Hale Irwin was. And I knew he was an all time great.

> > > >

> > > > I held out a hat or a golf ball or a scorecard or something and a sharpie hoping he would sign it. I asked him politely as he strode by, “Please may I have your autograph Mr. Irwin?”

> > > >

> > > > And he bruskly dismissed me, a child, with a curt wave of his hand.

> > > >

> > > > I’ll never forgive him for that.

> > >

> > > > @Hankshank said:

> > > > > @Lodestone said:

> > > > > > @Hankshank said:

> > > > > > Now, hold your horses, gentlemen. Irwin was before my time. So I have no memory of him. so I was just wondering, a guy that won like 7-8 tournaments a year on the Champions, I expected to see like a year or two of tour dominance also in his prime. And I had Broomstick Langer in mind. And just wondering if he found something out going into his Senior years.

> > > > > > I was more interested in Irwin than in the shortcomings of Irwing.

> > > > > >

> > > > > I'm not sure what you are saying about Bernhard. Are you saying that his Senior Tour Dominance followed a more spectacular regular career than Hale's? I'd say their regular tour careers were pretty similar. Longer had 2 majors, Hale 3, Langer had more wins, but they were almost all on the Euro Tour, whereas Hale's were on the PGA....

> > > >

> > > > I'm just saying that something improved his senior tour career that was an Issue in his regular tours career.

> > >

> > > Yeah, something improved......he hit the senior tour several years before Nicklaus and Miller and Trevino did.

> > > He had no "issues" on the regular tour: every part of his game was solid, if not spectacular. Only weakness was he might have been a little short off the tee but he compensated for that by being an excellent long iron player. He hit 2 iron into the 72nd hole at Winged Foot in 1974 (449 yard hole).

> > > And he was mentally VERY tough.

> > > Anybody who wins ****3**** US Opens has no "issues" in my book.

> >

> > Irwin hit the Senior Tour AFTER Trevino and Nicklaus, and Johnny Miller barely participated in the Senior Tour. Other than that you are spot on.

> Jack and Hale had a few seasons of overlap on the Senior Tour. Jack beat Hale by a shot for his last senior major in 1996. Irwin started on Senior Tour in 1995.

 

Yes I know they overlapped. I was responding to the quote that HI was there before Nicklaus and Trevino. He's younger than either of them.