What was the issue with Hale Irwin? (Tour history)

[JohnnyCashForever]

> @JAMH03 said:

 

> I think its a legit question on the nature of senior tour dominance vs reg tour excellence?

 

I imagine Hale's checklist in 1995 went something like this:

 

Can I still hit fairways and greens?: check

Putting still good: check

3 rounds instead of 4: check

Much shorter courses: check

Playing against guys who qualify for Social Security: check

Not playing against Watson or Nicklaus or Seve or Faldo or Norman or Stewart or Pavin: check

Is the money good?: Triple check

Do I still have fire in the belly?: You're damned right, I do.

 

27M dollars later, and the rest is history. I love this country.

[teejaywhy]

> @JAMH03 said:

> > @Hankshank said:

> > Ok! Was he regarded as a Rory or a DJ in his hey days? Guess that was in the late 70`s.

>

> No.

So you are saying, he was more highly regarded than Rory or DJ ?

What does this even mean?

 

 

 

[golfandfishing]

Hale Irwin was twice the player either of those bomb and gouge idiots are.

[JAMH03]

> @teejaywhy said:

> > @JAMH03 said:

> > > @Hankshank said:

> > > Ok! Was he regarded as a Rory or a DJ in his hey days? Guess that was in the late 70`s.

> >

> > No.

> So you are saying, he was more highly regarded than Rory or DJ ?

> What does this even mean?

>

>

>

I took it to mean was Hale regarded like DJ and Rory often are as near favorites for any events they tee it up in.

 

I didn't see Hale like that.

 

 

[Ferguson]

> @golfandfishing said:

> Hale Irwin was twice the player either of those bomb and gouge idiots are.

 

YES.

 

 

Date of birth: June 3, 1945

Place of birth: Joplin, Missouri

 

Tour Victories:

PGA Tour: 20

Champions Tour: 45

Major Championships: 3

1974 U.S. Open

1979 U.S. Open

1990 U.S. Open

 

Awards and Honors:

Member, World Golf Hall of Fame

Member, University of Colorado All-Century Football Team

Champions Tour awards and honors too numerous to mention: money titles, scoring titles, Senior majors, Player of the Year awards ...

Member, U.S. Ryder Cup team, 1975, 1977, 1979, 1981, 1991

Captain, U.S. Presidents Cup team, 1994

 

Quote:

**Hale Irwin: "Take the 20th player on the money list. He may not have won a tournament, but he has won a lot of money. He thinks he's a great player. The fans think he's a great player. I don't see it. Don't show me the money; show me what you've won."**

 

Observation:

Ken Venturi: "Aesthetically and technically, Hale stands at the ball as well as any player I've ever seen."

 

[johnnypro]

> @Hankshank said:

> Don’t know why, but I found myself googling Hale Irwin, found his Wiki page and was surprised seeing how much he won on Seniors, and comparingly how few titles he had on the PGA. Was there something wrong when he was in his prime?

>

> For Langer, the other player that has dominated the Seniors tour but didnt have 30+ victories on the PGA tour the answer is easy. Putting yips. Those costed him at least 10 big titles. Otherwise, his game was razor sharp. And then he found the broomstick and the rest is history.

>

> Irwin is a little before my time. Ok, I played most of the 80’s but there wasnt any televised golf, more than an occasional major, in my home country. Articles, but mostly about the big names. I remember seeing his last victory at 49, after a long break, assuring that there is such a thing as muscle memory. But apart from a sloppy putt miss that costed him a BO in 84, i have no memory of him in his prime.

>

> Looking at his winning record he absolutely ruled the Seniors tour, even more profoundly than Langer. But, albeit 3 US Opens, he had surprisingly few wins on the PGA tour. I remember him from the 80`s as something like a Furyk, OWGR top 10 guy maybe, but never one of the Big Three or the Big Five.

> Why did he win so much more on the seniors? Did he have any issues with his game that he sorted out late in his career?

 

The guy won three US Opens!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Not one, not two.......THREE.

How many people can say that?????

 

No one cares if he won comparatively few regular tour events.

He was a fairways and greens guy, not long but straight, above average short game, and mentally VERY TOUGH.

He had the prefect temperament for the US Open.

 

 

[NoodleSalad]

Irwin did most of his winning before my time, but one thing sticks out. After he won the 1994 MCI Heritage Classic he was interviewed on the 72nd hole by Jim Nantz. It was kind of a shock win because Irwin was pushing 50 and no one saw this coming. Nantz asked him to explain his sudden good form.

 

Irwin said something like "Well I have to give all credit to these new Cobra clubs" and Nantz shut down the interview. Never saw that before, or since. No unauthorized club shilling on CBS! Apparently.

[rgk5]

> @NoodleSalad said:

> Irwin did most of his winning before my time, but one thing sticks out. After he won the 1994 MCI Heritage Classic he was interviewed on the 72nd hole by Jim Nantz. It was kind of a shock win because Irwin was pushing 50 and no one saw this coming. Nantz asked him to explain his sudden good form.

>

> Irwin said something like "Well I have to give all credit to these new Cobra clubs" and Nantz shut down the interview. Never saw that before, or since. No unauthorized club shilling on CBS! Apparently.

 

Yet Nantz does plenty of shilling for Titleist.

[Lodestone]

> @rgk5 said:

> > @NoodleSalad said:

> > Irwin did most of his winning before my time, but one thing sticks out. After he won the 1994 MCI Heritage Classic he was interviewed on the 72nd hole by Jim Nantz. It was kind of a shock win because Irwin was pushing 50 and no one saw this coming. Nantz asked him to explain his sudden good form.

> >

> > Irwin said something like "Well I have to give all credit to these new Cobra clubs" and Nantz shut down the interview. Never saw that before, or since. No unauthorized club shilling on CBS! Apparently.

>

> Yet Nantz does plenty of shilling for Titleist.

 

But not on live air.

[JohnnyCashForever]

> @Ferguson said:

> > @golfandfishing said:

> > Hale Irwin was twice the player either of those bomb and gouge idiots are.

>

> YES.

>

>

> Date of birth: June 3, 1945

> Place of birth: Joplin, Missouri

>

> Tour Victories:

> PGA Tour: 20

> Champions Tour: 45

> Major Championships: 3

> 1974 U.S. Open

> 1979 U.S. Open

> 1990 U.S. Open

>

> Awards and Honors:

> Member, World Golf Hall of Fame

> Member, University of Colorado All-Century Football Team

> Champions Tour awards and honors too numerous to mention: money titles, scoring titles, Senior majors, Player of the Year awards ...

> Member, U.S. Ryder Cup team, 1975, 1977, 1979, 1981, 1991

> Captain, U.S. Presidents Cup team, 1994

>

> Quote:

> **Hale Irwin: "Take the 20th player on the money list. He may not have won a tournament, but he has won a lot of money. He thinks he's a great player. The fans think he's a great player. I don't see it. Don't show me the money; show me what you've won."**

>

> Observation:

> Ken Venturi: "Aesthetically and technically, Hale stands at the ball as well as any player I've ever seen."

>

 

I would have loved to have seen Hale as a Ryder Cup captain. Probably too old school...even back in the '90s. Today's pros would probably have no idea what to make of him.

 

[mocokid]

> @teejaywhy said:

> > @MountainGoat said:

> > His contemporaries who dominated the regular tour don't play the senior tour. I'm thinking of Norman, Faldo and Strange, but there are others, as well.

> >

>

> None of these guys are contemporaries of Irwin, he is ten years their senior. More like Nicklaus, Watson, Miller...

> Turned pro in 1968

> First win in 1971

> Third US Open in 1990 at age 45.

> Last Tour victory in 1994 at age 49.

> Pretty good career. The '90 open was memorable. A colleague and I used to make bets on the majors. I think we would pick 5 names to start and after the first round you could drop one and pick one up. I picked Irwin. We both had a laff on Friday but I was the only one laughing on Sunday.

>

> Who can forget his high-five victory lap after making 60' birdie to tie for the playoff:

> [https://youtube.com/watch?v=ke1yRrJO6NI](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ke1yRrJO6NI "https://youtube.com/watch?v=ke1yRrJO6NI")

>

>

 

Massacre at Winged Foot by Dick Schaap, nuff said, HI was tough as nails and very underrated. Didn't need a senior career for HOF status.

[JShaw]

Of course Hale was amazing. I don't think a lot of golfers really grasp how incredible 20 tour wins are. How many active PGA Tour players have 20 or more wins? I can think of Tiger, Phil, and DJ. I can only think of 2 more that joined the Champions Tour in the last few years that occasionally play the PGA, DLII and Vijay. The current "heroes" of the game still haven't matched or surpassed Irwin in either total wins or major wins, not to say they won't. DJ still needs 2 more majors, Spieth needs 9 more regular tour wins, Rory needs 5 more regular tour wins, JT needs 11 more regular tour wins with 2 majors, and BK need 15 more regular tour wins. Hale Irwin had a fantastic regular tour career.

[Lodestone]

> @mocokid said:

> > @teejaywhy said:

> > > @MountainGoat said:

> > > His contemporaries who dominated the regular tour don't play the senior tour. I'm thinking of Norman, Faldo and Strange, but there are others, as well.

> > >

> >

> > None of these guys are contemporaries of Irwin, he is ten years their senior. More like Nicklaus, Watson, Miller...

> > Turned pro in 1968

> > First win in 1971

> > Third US Open in 1990 at age 45.

> > Last Tour victory in 1994 at age 49.

> > Pretty good career. The '90 open was memorable. A colleague and I used to make bets on the majors. I think we would pick 5 names to start and after the first round you could drop one and pick one up. I picked Irwin. We both had a laff on Friday but I was the only one laughing on Sunday.

> >

> > Who can forget his high-five victory lap after making 60' birdie to tie for the playoff:

> > [https://youtube.com/watch?v=ke1yRrJO6NI](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ke1yRrJO6NI "https://youtube.com/watch?v=ke1yRrJO6NI")

> >

> >

>

> Massacre at Winged Foot by **** Schaap, nuff said, HI was tough as nails and very underrated. Didn't need a senior career for HOF status.

 

you said Dick....(teehee)

[Lodestone]

I started playing golf "seriously" in the late 70s...I wasn't too good, and whenever I had golf dreams I would always hit bad shots. I bought Hale Irwin's instruction book. I wasn't particularly a HI fan, but the book was OK....then one night I had a dream (really, I'm not making this up) and I'm playing my course WITH Hale Irwin, and I'm striping it. Ever since then I was more of a Hale Irwin fan.

Also, ever since then, when I have golf dreams, I'm striping it.

[Yuck]

I remember watching hale win the 1976 Citrus Open, ( later moved to bay hill). I was still in high school and had been following Jim Dent. It made an impression on me that Hale won, while his tee shots were not nearly as impressive as Dents. Just the sound of Dent hitting that Balata Ball 300+ was impressive to me as 16 year old.

[MadGolfer76]

I remember, at one point, you could turn on the channel and see Tiger, Annika, or Hale dominating on any of those three tours. In a way, it was predictably boring. At the time, I think Gil Morgan was the only regular competition Hale had for a while.

[tyorke1]

my highlight with Hale is we put sun screen on at the same time at Scioto , Nice fella to have a quick chat to. I was surprised he seemed my size, thought he was smaller

[Choclab]

> @ghostrider said:

> I met him a couple of times in Austin when I worked as a volunteer on driving range. He was not a "shortstop". He was much taller and bigger than expected. Probably 6-2 or so.

 

I remember the first tournament I ever went to, at Colonial, I was surprised at how skinny most of the golfers were. But one guy who stood out as bigger than I thought was Hale Irwin. I didn't care about him, as he was older at the time and just not someone I was interested in, but I remember it standing out that he was taller and broader and more athletic-looking than most of the other guys. Of course he was lean, like was the style of the time. But if he'd been in the gym doing the things some of these guys do now, he had the frame to get much bigger if he'd wanted to.

 

It's always hard to tell on TV with everyone being shown in isolation most of the time (except for maybe their caddies). I thought the same thing about Faldo the first time I saw him live -- he was a lot bigger than I realized. Much bigger than Norman who everyone acted like was such an imposing figure.

 

 

[Man_O_War]

> @"Darth Putter" said:

> > @Hankshank said:

> > Having, as the European I am, only a rudimentary knowledge of American football, it surprises me that he was short from tee, hearing that he played college football. When I see an occasional match, I see guys that look like being able to hit the ball cross-atlantic.

>

> He played defensive back, those are among the smallest men out on the field.

>

> Hale Irwin is perhaps the best long iron player ever. As mentioned he was very straight off the tee, won the US Open three times, won at Harbour Town three times, won The Memorial twice and he also won at Butler National, Westchester and the Crosby. If it was a tough course, you'd see him near the top of the leaderboard.

>

> Another fun fact, with wins in the USA, Brazil, South Africa, Japan, the World Match Play at Wentworth and the Australian PGA he is one of just five golfers with wins on all six continents.

>

>

 

it's not so hard if you are hitting your 1 iron 180

[jqsmooth]

> @Lodestone said:

> I started playing golf "seriously" in the late 70s...I wasn't too good, and whenever I had golf dreams I would always hit bad shots. I bought Hale Irwin's instruction book. I wasn't particularly a HI fan, but the book was OK....then one night I had a dream (really, I'm not making this up) and I'm playing my course WITH Hale Irwin, and I'm striping it. Ever since then I was more of a Hale Irwin fan.

> Also, ever since then, when I have golf dreams, I'm striping it.

 

I'm dying to know how it translated to your game when you were awake. Did you stripe it?

[Lodestone]

> @jqsmooth said:

> > @Lodestone said:

> > I started playing golf "seriously" in the late 70s...I wasn't too good, and whenever I had golf dreams I would always hit bad shots. I bought Hale Irwin's instruction book. I wasn't particularly a HI fan, but the book was OK....then one night I had a dream (really, I'm not making this up) and I'm playing my course WITH Hale Irwin, and I'm striping it. Ever since then I was more of a Hale Irwin fan.

> > Also, ever since then, when I have golf dreams, I'm striping it.

>

> I'm dying to know how it translated to your game when you were awake. Did you stripe it?

 

rarely. But at least I'm happy in my dreams now.

 

[gvogel]

> @Lodestone said:

> > @jqsmooth said:

> > > @Lodestone said:

> > > I started playing golf "seriously" in the late 70s...I wasn't too good, and whenever I had golf dreams I would always hit bad shots. I bought Hale Irwin's instruction book. I wasn't particularly a HI fan, but the book was OK....then one night I had a dream (really, I'm not making this up) and I'm playing my course WITH Hale Irwin, and I'm striping it. Ever since then I was more of a Hale Irwin fan.

> > > Also, ever since then, when I have golf dreams, I'm striping it.

> >

> > I'm dying to know how it translated to your game when you were awake. Did you stripe it?

>

> rarely. But at least I'm happy in my dreams now.

>

 

That's funny. I was reading Byron Nelson's "My Shot" yesterday and he commented that after he stopped playing tournament golf, he started have golf dreams. And they were always bad dreams - he'd be leading a tournament and couldn't find his shoes; or he couldn't find the entrance to the clubhouse; or he'd need a certain club and it would be missing. So at least you have the dream thing going for you.

[iBanesto]

Irwin won on one of the toughest set ups of all time at Winged Foot in 1974.

 

An underrated win.

 

[rangersgoalie]

> @mocokid said:

> > @teejaywhy said:

> > > @MountainGoat said:

> > > His contemporaries who dominated the regular tour don't play the senior tour. I'm thinking of Norman, Faldo and Strange, but there are others, as well.

> > >

> >

> > None of these guys are contemporaries of Irwin, he is ten years their senior. More like Nicklaus, Watson, Miller...

> > Turned pro in 1968

> > First win in 1971

> > Third US Open in 1990 at age 45.

> > Last Tour victory in 1994 at age 49.

> > Pretty good career. The '90 open was memorable. A colleague and I used to make bets on the majors. I think we would pick 5 names to start and after the first round you could drop one and pick one up. I picked Irwin. We both had a laff on Friday but I was the only one laughing on Sunday.

> >

> > Who can forget his high-five victory lap after making 60' birdie to tie for the playoff:

> > [https://youtube.com/watch?v=ke1yRrJO6NI](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ke1yRrJO6NI "https://youtube.com/watch?v=ke1yRrJO6NI")

> >

> >

>

> Massacre at Winged Foot by Dick Schaap, nuff said, HI was tough as nails and very underrated. Didn't need a senior career for HOF status.

 

If anyone hasn’t read Massacre at Winged Foot, do yourself a favour and read it if possible.

 

Gives a nice insight to that eras players

 

[JAMH03]

> @iBanesto said:

> Irwin won on one of the toughest set ups of all time at Winged Foot in 1974.

>

> An underrated win.

>

>

@iBanesto nice post thanks!

 

44 year old AP ten years removed from last major

24 Tom Watson

29 Hale Irwin.

 

Tiger turning 44 this year...

 

 

 

 

[bermuda]

In the mid-90s, probably 95, there was serious talk of putting him on the Ryder Cup team in his 50s.

 

I remember a Golf Digest article in the 1980s where he talked about his competitiveness. One thing that stuck with me was when he said he didn't try to run up the score, but he always wanted to put as much distance between himself and the second-place guy as possible. Ever since, when I hear commentators in any sport talking about a player or team "trying to hang on for the win," I remember what Irwin said. Don't "try to hang on." Score more.

[Lodestone]

> @JAMH03 said:

> > @iBanesto said:

> > Irwin won on one of the toughest set ups of all time at Winged Foot in 1974.

> >

> > An underrated win.

> >

> >

> @iBanesto nice post thanks!

>

> 44 year old AP ten years removed from last major

> 24 Tom Watson

> 29 Hale Irwin.

>

> Tiger turning 44 this year...

>

>

>

>

 

> @iBanesto said:

> Irwin won on one of the toughest set ups of all time at Winged Foot in 1974.

>

> An underrated win.

>

>

 

Great video...never saw it before. Thanks for posting. I don't buy the line that that JM's 63 the year before had no impact on how the course was set up. I don't have any problem with setting it up the way they did, and having a +7 win it. I think it validates the set-up that a golfer of Hale Irwin's caliber prevailed. He validated it by continuing on to have an excellent career.

I'm not sure what I think of the set-ups that resulted in Lee Jantzen and Andy North's wins....were they really "the best golfers" out there? How does that even work?

I wasn't much of a TV golf fan in '74, but I'd bet money that if they set up a course now, so that a +7 would win, I'd find that very entertaining to watch.

[Lagavulin62]

I remember watching Maltbie beat him in a playoff to win the 76, and first, Memorial tournament. It was actually a freak accident as maltbie’s ball hit a stake and luckily bounced back on the green. According to Malibie, Irwin took forever to put it past him and it sort of hurt their relationship for a bit. Finally, he even said, “cmon Hale, get over it!”

But I remember to this day Maltbie being presented those fake checks alongside Jack. And you can just imagine Hale cringing inside. I think he felt he was like royal stock or something. I’m sure it didn’t help that working man Roger was the victor either. Lol. The guy could really rub people the wrong way.

 

[Cwebb]

> @Lodestone said:

> > @JAMH03 said:

> > > @iBanesto said:

> > > Irwin won on one of the toughest set ups of all time at Winged Foot in 1974.

> > >

> > > An underrated win.

> > >

> > >

> > @iBanesto nice post thanks!

> >

> > 44 year old AP ten years removed from last major

> > 24 Tom Watson

> > 29 Hale Irwin.

> >

> > Tiger turning 44 this year...

> >

> >

> >

> >

>

> > @iBanesto said:

> > Irwin won on one of the toughest set ups of all time at Winged Foot in 1974.

> >

> > An underrated win.

> >

> >

>

> Great video...never saw it before. Thanks for posting. I don't buy the line that that JM's 63 the year before had no impact on how the course was set up. I don't have any problem with setting it up the way they did, and having a +7 win it. I think it validates the set-up that a golfer of Hale Irwin's caliber prevailed. He validated it by continuing on to have an excellent career.

> I'm not sure what I think of the set-ups that resulted in Lee Jantzen and Andy North's wins....were they really "the best golfers" out there? How does that even work?

> I wasn't much of a TV golf fan in '74, but I'd bet money that if they set up a course now, so that a +7 would win, I'd find that very entertaining to watch.

 

Was Corey Pavin the best golfer that week, when he won the U.S Open? Was Jason Dufner the best that week, when he won the PGA? The answer is yes they were, because they shot the lowest score. The way it works, is that if you're good enough to qualify and you have a great week and shoot a lower total than everyone else, then you win. That's the beauty of golf and sports in general. It's not won on "paper", is unpredictable, and the highest ranked players and teams don't always win

[Lodestone]

> @Cwebb said:

> > @Lodestone said:

> > > @JAMH03 said:

> > > > @iBanesto said:

> > > > Irwin won on one of the toughest set ups of all time at Winged Foot in 1974.

> > > >

> > > > An underrated win.

> > > >

> > > >

> > > @iBanesto nice post thanks!

> > >

> > > 44 year old AP ten years removed from last major

> > > 24 Tom Watson

> > > 29 Hale Irwin.

> > >

> > > Tiger turning 44 this year...

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> >

> > > @iBanesto said:

> > > Irwin won on one of the toughest set ups of all time at Winged Foot in 1974.

> > >

> > > An underrated win.

> > >

> > >

> >

> > Great video...never saw it before. Thanks for posting. I don't buy the line that that JM's 63 the year before had no impact on how the course was set up. I don't have any problem with setting it up the way they did, and having a +7 win it. I think it validates the set-up that a golfer of Hale Irwin's caliber prevailed. He validated it by continuing on to have an excellent career.

> > I'm not sure what I think of the set-ups that resulted in Lee Jantzen and Andy North's wins....were they really "the best golfers" out there? How does that even work?

> > I wasn't much of a TV golf fan in '74, but I'd bet money that if they set up a course now, so that a +7 would win, I'd find that very entertaining to watch.

>

> Was Corey Pavin the best golfer that week, when he won the U.S Open? Was Jason Dufner the best that week, when he won the PGA? The answer is yes they were, because they shot the lowest score. The way it works, is that if you're good enough to qualify and you have a great week and shoot a lower total than everyone else, then you win. That's the beauty of golf and sports in general. It's not won on "paper", is unpredictable, and the highest ranked players and teams don't always win

 

Low score determines the winner, .but that logic holds true for any and every set-up imaginable. If the winning score were -50, or +50, there will be a winner, by definition. I got the impression from Sandy Tatum's words that the intent was not to merely establish a "winner", but to determine "the best golfer", and that he felt smugly satisfied that the way they set up WF in '74 did just that, not only establish a winner, but establish the "best golfer".

I think that to establish the "best golfer" you have to set up a track that tests ALL aspects of one's game. Length, accuracy, precision etc etc. Certain layouts are going to give a premium to certain aspects of the game, and maybe give a pass to others. I get the impression from Tatum's words that he felt they succeeded at that. I wouldn't disagree with him, since the guy who won went on to do well over many years.

I don't think they always succeed at that. If the fairways are too narrow, and the rough too punitive, then it rewards the straight hitter. Which is fine, but I think it identifies the straightest hitter, not necessarily the "best" golfer.

My point with Jantzen and especially North, is that they each won twice at US Open set-ups, but North never won ANYWHERE else, and Jantzen only a few times. I think the argument can be made that those set-ups highly favored their particular skill sets, as opposed to providing a comprehensive test of all of the aspects of the game.