When to move back in tees?

heavy_hitter · June 26, 2019

> @tiger1873 said:

> > @heavy_hitter said:

> > > @tiger1873 said:

> > > > @heavy_hitter said:

> > > > > @tiger1873 said:

> > > > > > @yellowlover519 said:

> > > > > >

> > > > > > > @tiger1873 said:

> > > > > > > > @heavy_hitter said:

> > > > > > > > > @tiger1873 said:

> > > > > > > > > > @heavy_hitter said:

> > > > > > > > > > > @tiger1873 said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > @propredicr said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > This has seemed to work for my boy. For practice sessions, I moved my kid back one tee for each age group that he played. 10U played 4500-4800, he practiced 5200-5500. 11-12 playing 5200-6000, practicing 6200-6600. They learn to adapt and because the older kids are already playing those distances, they will be naturally introduced to tougher competition when hanging out.

> > > > > > > > > > > > Double-edged sword, he has been able to shoot low-mid 70's from 6000-6600 in tournaments, but, has trouble consistently being around or breaking par from 5200-5500! I'm pretty sure it's the scores above bogey, and course management issues. Can't figure out why that is still an issue...shooting higher scores from 1400 yds less ?

> > > > > > > > > > > > Any quick tips/suggestions, that we can try in practice, before we leave in two weeks for our major? LOL

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > Playing shorter yardages is not always good for lowering scores. In many cases a driver may be too far and there is trouble around the course or worse yet it lands at an in between awkward yardage. Ideally you take less club but by doing that you are father from the hole.

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > The skill level to place a 8 or 9 iron next to the hole for a birdie is much higher than a wedge. In a lot cases the distance from the hole and putting skills means they may par but the birdies they get are probably just the fact they were lucky and landed next the hole.

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > It could also be a mental issue. Have him hit 2 balls during practice in some cases place best ball other times play worst ball. You will learn a lot.

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > That is course management. Use a different club if they can't use driver. If you can't score from the short tees, you can't score from the longer tees.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > It is more than course management needed. It much harder to get a 8 or 9 iron pin high and close to the pin then using a wedge close in. To score low you're going to need to make a good number of putts from 10 feet in as well.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > If we are talking about higher tournaments when they get older they need to have a good chance of hitting lower irons close to the pin to have any chance of winning. You can be deadly with a wedge but if you using it too much you not on top of the leaderboard. To score low you need 30-50% chance that you will birdie any given hole. that translates to about 4-9 birdies a tournament.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > Also should add most kids will never have the skill to do this because they're swings will never hold up.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > I disagree. 7,8,and 9 iron are all scoring irons. If you can't get them inside of 20 ft on a consistent basis then you are aren't skilled enough. No reason to miss a green with these irons or wedges in hand. If you do, you don't practice the right things enough.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > If my kid is playing from 4600-5600 yards he will be putting for eagle on all par 5's. That is 4 under right there. You pick up another 3-4 birdies and you are rocking and rolling. Should be really easy to be honest. There will be a couple of driveable par 4's to boot. He also wouldn't take driver out on every hole.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > I think they need to hit 7,8 and 9 irons as well as 5 and 6 within 10 feet. The chance to make the putt diminish a lot between 10-20 feet. If your 15 feet from the pin that is a miss.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > With a wedge your probably within 5 feet. If you missing greens and pulling out a wedge more then a few holes you have some major issues.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > I was told this is how you score really low like in the PGA but someone who teacher many of them.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Tiger - always entertaining. 5, 6, 7, 8 and 9 irons within 10 feet?! Do you watch any professional golf. Have you ever watched featured groups on PGA TOUR LIVE. Even the shots they broadcast on national TV by non superstars (they show these shots because of TV delay and they were good shots) are not within 10 feet with those irons (especially 5-7). If you are preaching this to your junior, that is a hefty, unrealistic goal, even at 10% of shots hit into the green with such irons.

> > > > >

> > > > > I know it hard to believe but most pro's are pretty accurate and will place the ball easily within 10 feet. I know this because of how I learned this to be the case. Sure do they miss everyone does but I bet you more then 50% of there shots are at least that close. If you want to live under par you better be making putts under 10 feet. If you 20 or 30 feet away you are never going to make enough birdies to survive on tour.

> > > > >

> > > > > You have to have a very repeatable swing for this to happen. A kid with a repeatable swing will get a lot calls and offers from top instructors looking to coach them.

> > > >

> > > > What?

> > > >

> > > > Do you know what the tour average for proximity to the hole is? Corey Connors is the best on the PGA Tour from the Fairway at 32'9". You have probably never heard of him. Average from the Fairway is around 36' to the hole. Approaches inside 100 yards Taylor Gooch has the best average at 12' 5". Median is 17' 4". They expect to make putts inside of 30'.

> > >

> > > I didn't say there 100% that close but your pulling a stat out that has major flaws and is skewed to look like they hit father then they really do. You're missing the point hitting pins close is needed to break par. I know there not expecting to sink putts from 20- 30 feet either.

> > >

> > > Most pro's are able to put at least 50%-60% of there approach shots closer then 10 feet every round. That easily translates to a score below par. A bad day for them means they only get 2 or 3 birdies. They can't and do not expect to make 15- 30 foot putts all day. The percentages are very low and statistically it only really makes up for the putts closer that they will miss.

> > >

> > > Look at the top players they all make more then 3 or 4 birdies a round and expect to.

> >

> > What? That stat is based on every approach shot on tour. So tell me again how it is flawed? I am also only giving you the stats on approaches from fairways. Add in the rough and the stat is worse. Sometimes I really wonder if you understand golf or watch golf.

>

> I don't think you understand averages very well. They take the total distance of all shots and divide it. If they used Median it would be a better stat because you would get a middle number.

>

> If you think about a 90 foot miss will really push up the numbers a lot. For easy sake I will do some math to show you how it skews the rounds, I will keep them rounded for easy sake.

>

> 2 shots = 5'

> 10 shots = 10

> 4 shots 25'

> 1 shot 40'

> 1 shot 100'

>

> The total distance is 350' for 18 holes this means the average was 19.44'

>

> Well in this case 66% of the shots were 10' or less which means there hitting it closer. if we just used a median the number (assuming the above numbers were different) we would probably say there 10'

>

Actually, I majored in math and took plenty of stats classes. The best used for this is actually the average. Median would be skewed. You are trying to make this fit your scenario and it doesn't.

From 100-125 yards they are missing 90 yards one way or the other. The absolute best from this yardage is Sergio and his proximity is 15'6". It isn't being skewed.

tiger1873 · June 26, 2019

> @heavy_hitter said:

>

> Actually, I majored in math and took plenty of stats classes. The best used for this is actually the average. Median would be skewed. You are trying to make this fit your scenario and it doesn't.

>

> From 100-125 yards they are missing 90 yards one way or the other. The absolute best from this yardage is Sergio and his proximity is 15'6". It isn't being skewed.

Yes they are missing the pin by big numbers but they also are pretty close the MAJORITY OF THE TIME. Much closer then those stats would indicate.

You can't argue there making 30 foot putts on all those birdies otherwise the putting stats are bogus. If that was the case you would not see brooks Koepka or Dustin Johnson doing as well as they do. They don't make many putts from 15-20 ft.

yellowlover519 · June 26, 2019

Tiger - just watch one round of featured groups (they are usually the top ranked players in the field) and see how many greens are hit within 20’. That’s all you have to do (and we’re talking about the best). How do they go under? They take advantage of the par 5s, are unbelievable scramblers, hit a few greens within 20’ and sink a couple of those putts. No way do the majority of their GIR end up inside 10’. And they’re hitting 8-wedge into the greens! Not 5 and 6 irons!

The problem is that you’re watching golf central highlights and not an entire round.

Is it possible you’re confusing yards with feet? Is your 10’ actually 30’?

kekoa · June 26, 2019

> @heavy_hitter said:

> > @tiger1873 said:

> > > @propredicr said:

> > > This has seemed to work for my boy. For practice sessions, I moved my kid back one tee for each age group that he played. 10U played 4500-4800, he practiced 5200-5500. 11-12 playing 5200-6000, practicing 6200-6600. They learn to adapt and because the older kids are already playing those distances, they will be naturally introduced to tougher competition when hanging out.

> > > Double-edged sword, he has been able to shoot low-mid 70's from 6000-6600 in tournaments, but, has trouble consistently being around or breaking par from 5200-5500! I'm pretty sure it's the scores above bogey, and course management issues. Can't figure out why that is still an issue...shooting higher scores from 1400 yds less ?

> > > Any quick tips/suggestions, that we can try in practice, before we leave in two weeks for our major? LOL

> >

> > Playing shorter yardages is not always good for lowering scores. In many cases a driver may be too far and there is trouble around the course or worse yet it lands at an in between awkward yardage. Ideally you take less club but by doing that you are father from the hole.

> >

> > The skill level to place a 8 or 9 iron next to the hole for a birdie is much higher than a wedge. In a lot cases the distance from the hole and putting skills means they may par but the birdies they get are probably just the fact they were lucky and landed next the hole.

> >

> > It could also be a mental issue. Have him hit 2 balls during practice in some cases place best ball other times play worst ball. You will learn a lot.

>

> That is course management. Use a different club if they can't use driver. If you can't score from the short tees, you can't score from the longer tees.

AMEN!!!!!!!!!!!!!

BloctonGolf11 · June 27, 2019

First off this has been a great thread to read. With mine (9 year old, better than average junior right now) we mix it up constantly. He is not long but also not short off the tee for his age. If we are playing 18 we will commonly play one 9 from around 2400-2500 and one from around 2000-2200. My logic behind this is pretty simple, he gets work on basically all the clubs in his bag and most shots in on course conditions. I try to mix in 1 or 2 short par 4s he can try to really go for as well just to throw different situations at him. We should not look at "tees" as absolutes for the development of a child or an adult golfer. Mix it up and work on all parts of your game. However, also have enough sense to not put your kid in a situation where he is going to struggle with no benefit. Lastly, don't get too obsessed with score if they are scooting back in distance and instead look at the other factors of how they are playing. Mine played a hilly course, from 5300, in a state organization tournament a month ago and did not score well but played his butt off. I think it was a great learning experience and his play since then has been very solid.

An aside, in my opinion the comment about moving up once you are dominating at a distance or division is 1000% spot on.

heavy_hitter · June 27, 2019

> @BloctonGolf11 said:

> First off this has been a great thread to read. With mine (9 year old, better than average junior right now) we mix it up constantly. He is not long but also not short off the tee for his age. If we are playing 18 we will commonly play one 9 from around 2400-2500 and one from around 2000-2200. My logic behind this is pretty simple, he gets work on basically all the clubs in his bag and most shots in on course conditions. I try to mix in 1 or 2 short par 4s he can try to really go for as well just to throw different situations at him. We should not look at "tees" as absolutes for the development of a child or an adult golfer. Mix it up and work on all parts of your game. However, also have enough sense to not put your kid in a situation where he is going to struggle with no benefit. Lastly, don't get too obsessed with score if they are scooting back in distance and instead look at the other factors of how they are playing. Mine played a hilly course, from 5300, in a state organization tournament a month ago and did not score well but played his butt off. I think it was a great learning experience and his play since then has been very solid.

>

> An aside, in my opinion the comment about moving up once you are dominating at a distance or division is 1000% spot on.

Give me the kid that can play golf early on over the long ball, chip, then putt. That is why Kekoa's boy will be good. He is a golfer.

BloctonGolf11 · June 28, 2019

> @heavy_hitter said:

> > @BloctonGolf11 said:

> > First off this has been a great thread to read. With mine (9 year old, better than average junior right now) we mix it up constantly. He is not long but also not short off the tee for his age. If we are playing 18 we will commonly play one 9 from around 2400-2500 and one from around 2000-2200. My logic behind this is pretty simple, he gets work on basically all the clubs in his bag and most shots in on course conditions. I try to mix in 1 or 2 short par 4s he can try to really go for as well just to throw different situations at him. We should not look at "tees" as absolutes for the development of a child or an adult golfer. Mix it up and work on all parts of your game. However, also have enough sense to not put your kid in a situation where he is going to struggle with no benefit. Lastly, don't get too obsessed with score if they are scooting back in distance and instead look at the other factors of how they are playing. Mine played a hilly course, from 5300, in a state organization tournament a month ago and did not score well but played his butt off. I think it was a great learning experience and his play since then has been very solid.

> >

> > An aside, in my opinion the comment about moving up once you are dominating at a distance or division is 1000% spot on.

>

> Give me the kid that can play golf early on over the long ball, chip, then putt. That is why Kekoa's boy will be good. He is a golfer.

Don't know if it got lost in what I was saying but totally agree. My point was to work on all parts of the game and help foster a complete golfer. I see so many kids who are dominating USKids or other tournaments but cannot hit a fairway wood or mid iron because they have never had to. Like you said we are seeing a movement towards long ball, chip, putt as a strategy and that simply will not hold up as the kid gets older. My son's 5 and 6 iron are as worn as his PW and 9 iron and I am perfectly fine with that.

Pinewood Golfer · June 28, 2019

> @tiger1873 said:

> > @heavy_hitter said:

> >

> > Actually, I majored in math and took plenty of stats classes. The best used for this is actually the average. Median would be skewed. You are trying to make this fit your scenario and it doesn't.

> >

> > From 100-125 yards they are missing 90 yards one way or the other. The absolute best from this yardage is Sergio and his proximity is 15'6". It isn't being skewed.

>

> Yes they are missing the pin by big numbers but they also are pretty close the MAJORITY OF THE TIME. Much closer then those stats would indicate.

>

> You can't argue there making 30 foot putts on all those birdies otherwise the putting stats are bogus. If that was the case you would not see brooks Koepka or Dustin Johnson doing as well as they do. They don't make many putts from 15-20 ft.

You are simply wrong. PGA players only HIT THE GREEN 75% of the time from 100-125 yards, so to suggest that "the majority of the time they are hitting it close" is just stupid. You also suggested in a previous post that 2/3 of their approaches were within 10 feet of the hole. How is that possible when they miss the green 1/4 of the time.

There is some validity in what your saying regarding the REALLY bad shots affecting the average more than the really good. However your suppositions are way off. What you're essentially trying to say is that the median approach for tour players is super close which, in reality, it's not going to be all that different than the average.

Bottom line is that your expectations are extremely unrealistic.

leezer99 · June 29, 2019

> @"Pinewood Golfer" said:

> > @tiger1873 said:

> > > @heavy_hitter said:

> > >

> > > Actually, I majored in math and took plenty of stats classes. The best used for this is actually the average. Median would be skewed. You are trying to make this fit your scenario and it doesn't.

> > >

> > > From 100-125 yards they are missing 90 yards one way or the other. The absolute best from this yardage is Sergio and his proximity is 15'6". It isn't being skewed.

> >

> > Yes they are missing the pin by big numbers but they also are pretty close the MAJORITY OF THE TIME. Much closer then those stats would indicate.

> >

> > You can't argue there making 30 foot putts on all those birdies otherwise the putting stats are bogus. If that was the case you would not see brooks Koepka or Dustin Johnson doing as well as they do. They don't make many putts from 15-20 ft.

>

> You are simply wrong. PGA players only HIT THE GREEN 75% of the time from 100-125 yards, so to suggest that "the majority of the time they are hitting it close" is just stupid. You also suggested in a previous post that 2/3 of their approaches were within 10 feet of the hole. How is that possible when they miss the green 1/4 of the time.

>

> There is some validity in what your saying regarding the REALLY bad shots affecting the average more than the really good. However your suppositions are way off. What you're essentially trying to say is that the median approach for tour players is super close which, in reality, it's not going to be all that different than the average.

>

> Bottom line is that your expectations are extremely unrealistic.

The average shot on Tour from 150 yards from the short grass will end up to 27 feet. A good shot on Tour will end up roughly 23-feet to the hole. A weak shot on Tour will have a proximity to the hole of 32-feet. Moving out in distance the average Tour player hits a shot from the fairway from 180 yards to 32.4 feet to the hole.

These are indisputable facts.

GIR for the top 200 players on Tour this year averages 65.8%.

jj9000 · June 30, 2019

The only reason these kids are able to throw darts within 10 feet with 5-Irons...and have great Birdie looks all day...is the fact that they're playing ProV1s and have Ivy League D1 scholarships at 7 YO.