Net Tournaments

[WAB]

Just played in my very first tournament (2 rounds). It was pressure intensive and exhilarating and I now understand how tournament golf is indeed different than casual golf. I derived the round differentials (all negative) for the top finishing players in my flight (looking at their course handicap, gross score, course rating, & slope). I then looked up the odds for these differentials and they made no sense:

 

1^st place player: 10 to 1 for round-1 score & 87 to 1 for round-2 score

2^nd place player: 22 to 1 for round-2 score

3rd place player: 22 to 1 for round-2 score

4^th place player: 21 to 1 for round-2 score

 

So it seems that these players used bogus handicaps. I looked at last year’s scores and some of the same group of people are listed again with scores that don’t make sense. What is the point of these net tournaments then? I would rather come in last place in the top flight than participate in a farce.

[davep043]

Just played in my very first tournament (2 rounds). It was pressure intensive and exhilarating and I now understand how tournament golf is indeed different than casual golf. I derived the round differentials (all negative) for the top finishing players in my flight (looking at their course handicap, gross score, course rating, & slope). I then looked up the odds for these differentials and they made no sense:

 

1^st place player: 10 to 1 for round-1 score & 87 to 1 for round-2 score

2^nd place player: 22 to 1 for round-2 score

3rd place player: 22 to 1 for round-2 score

4^th place player: 21 to 1 for round-2 score

 

So it seems that these players used bogus handicaps. I looked at last year’s scores and some of the same group of people are listed again with scores that don’t make sense. What is the point of these net tournaments then? I would rather come in last place in the top flight than participate in a farce.

First, how many people were in the tournament? With any decent-sized population of players, you will ALWAYS have a few that have unusually good scores, that's why they win. I see that for places 2 thru 4, you only listed one round. What did they have on the first round?

 

There's no doubt that sandbagging does exist, and maybe these guys are doing that. On the other hand, there are people who post legitimately, all of their scores, and just seem to perform better in competitions. Have you checked to see that these scores are posted for their handicaps? You can be part of the solution if you check their posting, report them to their home club, report them to the tournament organizers, whatever you need to do. I know you'll get lots of people who are going to tell you that honest golfers can never win, the handicap system sucks, all of that. But complaining online won't do anyone any good.

[WAB]

First, how many people were in the tournament? With any decent-sized population of players, you will ALWAYS have a few that have unusually good scores, that's why they win. I see that for places 2 thru 4, you only listed one round. What did they have on the first round?

 

There's no doubt that sandbagging does exist, and maybe these guys are doing that. On the other hand, there are people who post legitimately, all of their scores, and just seem to perform better in competitions. Have you checked to see that these scores are posted for their handicaps? You can be part of the solution if you check their posting, report them to their home club, report them to the tournament organizers, whatever you need to do. I know you'll get lots of people who are going to tell you that honest golfers can never win, the handicap system sucks, all of that. But complaining online won't do anyone any good.

 

For round-1 2-4 had positive differentials 2, 5, & 3.

I listed the ones that looked suspect. I understand that the winners will theoretically always shoot good scores, but "unusually good scores"? 22 to 1 odds scores? Not sure about that.

 

You are right to try and be part of the solution. I am brand new to this though and first and foremost trying to understand this phenomena. Thanks for your comments.

[raynorfan1]

First, how many people were in the tournament? With any decent-sized population of players, you will ALWAYS have a few that have unusually good scores, that's why they win. I see that for places 2 thru 4, you only listed one round. What did they have on the first round?

 

There's no doubt that sandbagging does exist, and maybe these guys are doing that. On the other hand, there are people who post legitimately, all of their scores, and just seem to perform better in competitions. Have you checked to see that these scores are posted for their handicaps? You can be part of the solution if you check their posting, report them to their home club, report them to the tournament organizers, whatever you need to do. I know you'll get lots of people who are going to tell you that honest golfers can never win, the handicap system sucks, all of that. But complaining online won't do anyone any good.

 

For round-1 2-4 had positive differentials 2, 5, & 3.

I listed the ones that looked suspect. I understand that the winners will theoretically always shoot good scores, but "unusually good scores"? 22 to 1 odds scores? Not sure about that.

 

You are right to try and be part of the solution. I am brand new to this though and first and foremost trying to understand this phenomena. Thanks for your comments.

 

Field size is super important.

 

If you have 125 guys in the field, the odds are that 1 of them is going to have a round that's a "once in 125 round" kind of performance - because there were actually 125 rounds played. Two guys (including the once in a 125 round guy) are going to have "once in ~60" round scores. Four guys are going to have "one in 30" events. And so on.

 

Where it gets suspect is when the same guys have their "best" rounds at the most opportune times.

[SelahVi]

First, how many people were in the tournament? With any decent-sized population of players, you will ALWAYS have a few that have unusually good scores, that's why they win. I see that for places 2 thru 4, you only listed one round. What did they have on the first round?

 

There's no doubt that sandbagging does exist, and maybe these guys are doing that. On the other hand, there are people who post legitimately, all of their scores, and just seem to perform better in competitions. Have you checked to see that these scores are posted for their handicaps? You can be part of the solution if you check their posting, report them to their home club, report them to the tournament organizers, whatever you need to do. I know you'll get lots of people who are going to tell you that honest golfers can never win, the handicap system sucks, all of that. But complaining online won't do anyone any good.

 

For round-1 2-4 had positive differentials 2, 5, & 3.

I listed the ones that looked suspect. I understand that the winners will theoretically always shoot good scores, but "unusually good scores"? 22 to 1 odds scores? Not sure about that.

 

You are right to try and be part of the solution. I am brand new to this though and first and foremost trying to understand this phenomena. Thanks for your comments.

 

Field size is super important.

 

If you have 125 guys in the field, the odds are that 1 of them is going to have a round that's a "once in 125 round" kind of performance - because there were actually 125 rounds played. Two guys (including the once in a 125 round guy) are going to have "once in ~60" round scores. Four guys are going to have "one in 30" events. And so on.

 

Where it gets suspect is when the same guys have their "best" rounds at the most opportune times.

 

Indeed, a field size of 125 players means 250 rounds for a 2 round tournament! Your points are well made.

[teejaywhy]

Just played in my very first tournament (2 rounds). It was pressure intensive and exhilarating and I now understand how tournament golf is indeed different than casual golf. I derived the round differentials (all negative) for the top finishing players in my flight (looking at their course handicap, gross score, course rating, & slope). I then looked up the odds for these differentials and they made no sense:

 

1^st place player: 10 to 1 for round-1 score & 87 to 1 for round-2 score

2^nd place player: 22 to 1 for round-2 score

3rd place player: 22 to 1 for round-2 score

4^th place player: 21 to 1 for round-2 score

 

So it seems that these players used bogus handicaps. I looked at last year’s scores and some of the same group of people are listed again with scores that don’t make sense. What is the point of these net tournaments then? I would rather come in last place in the top flight than participate in a farce.

 

Unless I'm not understanding your numbers... The odds are not bad at all and net scores of -1 and -2 ??? Not many tournaments are won with net par.

[WAB]

Unless I'm not understanding your numbers... The odds are not bad at all and net scores of -1 and -2 ??? Not many tournaments are won with net par.

 

87 to 1 odds for the 1st place winner to shoot the score they shot on day-2. I don't think those are good odds. Shooting you handicap (let alone several strokes below your handicap) is not likely. Especially in a tournament where pressure is high and actual rules must be followed. I don't buy it.

[rcb1586]

Maybe he plays by the rules all of the time so that is no change for him.

And maybe he has a lot of tournament experience and doesn't feel much additional pressure.

 

An 18 index shooting an 88 and an 85 (rough guess on my part) doesn't raise one bit of suspicion from me.

[teejaywhy]

Unless I'm not understanding your numbers... The odds are not bad at all and net scores of -1 and -2 ??? Not many tournaments are won with net par.

 

87 to 1 odds for the 1st place winner to shoot the score they shot on day-2. I don't think those are good odds. Shooting you handicap (let alone several strokes below your handicap) is not likely. Especially in a tournament where pressure is high and actual rules must be followed. I don't buy it.

 

Pope of Slope says you shoot or better your handicap 1 in 5 rounds.

 

Not saying sandbagging doesn't exist, just don't see it with your example.

 

 

 

[teejaywhy]

Ok, i am misunderstanding your numbers. I saw -2 and thought 2 under par.

 

Those statistics don't mean anything to me. I need to see the index, CR/slope, and scores to understand. I would also look at the player's posting history.

 

[WAB]

Ok, i am misunderstanding your numbers. I saw -2 and thought 2 under par.

 

Those statistics don't mean anything to me. I need to see the index, CR/slope, and scores to understand. I would also look at the player's posting history.

 

Handicap Differential = ((score - course rating) x 113) / course slope

Net differential = Handicap Differential - course handicap

 

The odds for a net differential of -4 are 87 to 1.

[fairways4life]

Played in a tournament today. A guy in my flight (which is for 4-8 handicaps) shot a 69 (-3) with 6 birdies. Tees we played were 6500 yards with a rating of 71.4. Between his prize money and his skins he walked away with more than $300.

 

He was at least 6 under his "handicap." Gotta love net tournaments.

[DaddyCaddieIU]

Sandbagged

[davep043]

One good thing about the new system, if his Differential was 7 under his HI, his HI is automatically reduced by a full stroke, in addition to the change that the new score makes. And if the Tournament administrators don't make sure the score is posted, they're not doing their job. Heck, YOU should be checking to make sure it was posted. That's what Peer Review means.

[Sean2]

Sandbaggers ruin a system designed to level the playing field. Sure, a guy might have a one off score, but consider: during tournaments the courses are usually setup to play more difficult, and you have the added pressure of tournament golf itself.

[C6 Snowboarder]

My 2 cents worth

 

I play in about 50 tournaments a year -- so I have seen both extremes - sandbaggers and really good players that are consistent with their scores. I like flighted tourneys where for example the group A is 0-10 index and Group B is 10-19 Index and then the rest of the field. the Range grouping when I say 0-10 is just an example - the total number of players is just equally divided into three groups based on handicap. Many times I have seen in multiple day tourneys where a 12 handicap shoots exceptional first day score and then the 2nd day he is 18 over . Consistent play usually wins. One of my men's clubs this year will be using scores from our events to arrive at a players Local handicap in our tournaments. -- tough to sandbag when this formula is used. - looking forward to it.

Play well - Play Often - retire and become a Professional Amateur Golfer.

Us Old Retired Guys love to beat the long hitting golfers that still have to work.