How do you get rid of the flick/flip instinct? POST 120-UPDATE

[Jim Waldron]

So a decent golfer has a flip and goes to a very good instructor and they identify the root cause as an incorrect position in the backswing and fix it and after some work the flip disappears and never returns. The instructor never mentions anything about bad mental picture or a 2d illusion and the student gets fixed anyways by working on a mechanical fix.

 

How does that happen? If you had a bad mental picture how could the flip go away from a mechanical correction? If you didn't have a bad mental picture how did you get a flip in the first place? How would one even know if your subconscious mind is making you flip? The subconscious mind is a non communicating dictator it's not telling you what it's doing so how would a complete stranger to your subconscious know what it's doing?

 

Your subconscious isn't an alien with a mind control machine. It's you. It's the sum of all your knowledge of how to get the ball moving up and fast towards the target. If you think that snapping your right wrist towards the target at impact will create clubhead speed, that's imbedded into your subconscious and will make your flip at the bottom when you're really letting out the shaft.

 

Well if you're thinking then it's conscious not subconscious. The subconscious doesn't communicate as conscious thought! It's a non communicating dictator...so you or anyone else does not know what it's doing. If you or anyone else did they wouldn't need hypnosis to unlock the mysteries of the dictator!

 

A really big part of the art of coaching is knowing how to bring forth into consciousness what was subconscious. That is the whole basis for Deep Insight. Doing that is all about the student/teacher dialogue - the teacher asking questions, the student pondering and coming up with an answer/response.

 

It is also why you need the essential tool of mental focus and awareness to assist in "eliciting" that information from the subconscious.

 

It is the basis of psychotherapy for one, and really any sort of behavioral change methodology.

[ofortuna]

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[asterisk]

So a decent golfer has a flip and goes to a very good instructor and they identify the root cause as an incorrect position in the backswing and fix it and after some work the flip disappears and never returns. The instructor never mentions anything about bad mental picture or a 2d illusion and the student gets fixed anyways by working on a mechanical fix.

 

How does that happen? If you had a bad mental picture how could the flip go away from a mechanical correction? If you didn't have a bad mental picture how did you get a flip in the first place? How would one even know if your subconscious mind is making you flip? The subconscious mind is a non communicating dictator it's not telling you what it's doing so how would a complete stranger to your subconscious know what it's doing?

 

Your subconscious isn't an alien with a mind control machine. It's you. It's the sum of all your knowledge of how to get the ball moving up and fast towards the target. If you think that snapping your right wrist towards the target at impact will create clubhead speed, that's imbedded into your subconscious and will make your flip at the bottom when you're really letting out the shaft.

 

Well if you're thinking then it's conscious not subconscious. The subconscious doesn't communicate as conscious thought! It's a non communicating dictator...so you or anyone else does not know what it's doing. If you or anyone else did they wouldn't need hypnosis to unlock the mysteries of the dictator!

 

A really big part of the art of coaching is knowing how to bring forth into consciousness what was subconscious. That is the whole basis for Deep Insight. Doing that is all about the student/teacher dialogue - the teacher asking questions, the student pondering and coming up with an answer/response.

 

It is also why you need the essential tool of mental focus and awareness to assist in "eliciting" that information from the subconscious.

 

It is the basis of psychotherapy for one, and really any sort of behavioral change methodology.

 

Well you left out the rest of my post conviently...so what you're doing requires conscious thought to try to elicit info from a non communicating dictator to change your mental picture.. not happening... you can't do anything without consciously applying a mechanical change first then and only then can a new program be installed for the subconscious to run on auto pilot and even then there are many problems that arise from any subconsciously run program!!

 

You can't put the cart before the horse on this one!

[asterisk]

In your scenario the student is consciously giving feed back to you not from the subconscious but the conscious...thus your info from that student is not from some deep place but from what the student THINKS is happening!

[Millbrook]

I recently had lesson 3 with a coach and mentioned that at lesson 2 I had seen on the video of my swing how early I was losing the angles.

 

We worked on it and he showed me statically what impact position should be like - body position, hands relative to the ball etc.

 

My it felt weird but I went ahead and hit balls.

 

My hands were much further forward at impact, not ideal but I could see the difference on video. I was hitting the ball OK and could see the results on the flightscope (or whatever the technology was)

 

However even though I could see the results, even though I could feel the swing and know the result was OK something weird was happening.

 

In every swing the internal feedback as I came to impact was 'you can't hit the ball from here'.

 

Even though I could and I was hitting the ball in this new way this new experience was so in conflict with what I had done the empirical evidence could not change the map I had of what was necessary to hit the ball the way I had always done.

[TB07]

So a decent golfer has a flip and goes to a very good instructor and they identify the root cause as an incorrect position in the backswing and fix it and after some work the flip disappears and never returns. The instructor never mentions anything about bad mental picture or a 2d illusion and the student gets fixed anyways by working on a mechanical fix.

 

How does that happen? If you had a bad mental picture how could the flip go away from a mechanical correction? If you didn't have a bad mental picture how did you get a flip in the first place? How would one even know if your subconscious mind is making you flip? The subconscious mind is a non communicating dictator it's not telling you what it's doing so how would a complete stranger to your subconscious know what it's doing?

 

You are flipping in most cases because flipping HELPS people's ballstriking especially when they are steep/arms behind. That's why it's so hard to fix IMO. In most cases, flipping is the only thing that results in functional ballstriking. That's why you need to fix the reason why your body is making you flip. If you do that, then your body won't want to flip. I really disagree that's it's a result of any kind of impulse or anything, it's just your body reacting the way it needs to so you don't hit it 40 yards right. Once you get to a place where a flip would actually hurt your ballflight, your body is more likely to adjust by not flipping. But that's hard place for many to get to.

 

I can only tell you my experience, which is easily many hundreds of golfers who learned to stop the flip by changing their mental picture, or "impulse" inhibition/elimination.

 

Meaning the student had a powerful "light bulb" moment and instantly stopped flipping.

 

We are not machines, our mind and beliefs have a strong effect on how the body moves.

 

Jim, you obviously have far more experience in this than I do, so I'm not attempting to discredit what you are saying. However, in my experience with several excellent instructors, the flip was always a response to being in an less than ideal position before P6, and once that was fixed, I no longer NEEDED to flip. That's what fixed it. I never felt like I had any impulse, in fact, when I got a lesson from Monte, he suggested I had too much shaft lean and that was what was causing the issues. In the lesson with Monte, once we worked my issues, it was easy to just release naturally without the need to flip

 

Right, I already stated - twice - that this is one way to fix a flip - just not the ONLY way.

 

HIgh handicaps especially - vast majority in my experience - do in fact hold a conscious and subconscious toxic image of Release and Impact that is the literal definition of a flip. I have done clinics with lots of folks in attendance and ask them "which way should your wrists release in a good swing - sideways like this (as I show them a flip) or downwards like this (showing them unc0cking down with no flip)"

 

I ask for hands and about 80-90% of the group will raise their hands when I demo a flip.

 

The brain wants to move the club and arrive at impact in a way that "makes sense" to the person, and unfortunately, there are a few very common toxic beliefs about how the club should move to get the ball airborne, in the direction of the target, and in a long game shot, to travel a long distance. Those beliefs create the poor body mechanics.

 

I had a woman student about 15 years ago who really struggled with her game, very high handicap, always scooping and making poor contact. She took a 3 day school on the golf swing and a follow up lesson a few weeks later. Even though intellectually she knew that her main flaw was the flip/scoop, her body would not stop flipping.

 

I tried everything, including training aids, and nothing worked.

 

I took a golf ball, put it in a vise, and drove a large nail through it.

 

Took it to the lesson tee the next morning, put a towel down on the grass, and had her lie down prone on the ground.

 

Put my golf ball with the nail on the grass, her head about 3 feet away, watching the ball, especially the nail head end, which was out the back of the ball on a 45 degree angle toward the sky.

 

Took my PW and very slowly made a descending angle of attack, and touched the head of the nail with the sweetspot of my wedge.

 

Over and over, while she watched.

 

After about 5 minutes she jumps up and shouts "Are you f....... kidding me? THAT is what my clubhead is supposed to do just before and during impact? Oh my god! I have been trying to slide the clubhead UNDER THE GOLF BALL TO LIFT IT INTO THE AIR!!!

 

Why did you not tell me this before!"

 

I laughed and reminded her that I and my staff had in fact "told her" that the clubhead makes a descending blow, yada yada yada.. and we did a whole 90 minutes on that Law of Club Motion on the very first day of her 3 day school, and she had read the 200 page manual on the golf swing that comes with that class - which clearly states this in several pages...

 

She says "Oh, sure I heard you say all that but I did not think you really meant it....everybody knows the clubhead has to go up if you want your ball to go up...it's just common sense..

 

I am not making this up.

 

I hand her her 7 iron - and she starts hitting down, taking a divot in front, and hitting really nice 7 irons, one after another.

 

So in your opinion would 80% of golfers get rid of the flip with a change of mental image? Or would it be a combination of mechanics and image?

[wmblake2000]

The great tour pro and teacher Jacke Burke Jr famously said "I ain't never seen no video camera show me what is going on in the student's subconscious mind - which is all that really matters".

 

Part of the getting to the unconscious (and therefore unexamined) image starts with the conscious intent. This sets up a conflct - I want to do A but keep doing B. At some point I understand 'I do B because I believe/assume thus and such.' Once this conflict and resistance to change becomes known, the rest is easy.

 

At least for me, this working into awareness of what I subtly/unconsciously believe is a MAJOR part, if not THE major part, of all the practice when making a change. I am now pretty knowingly trying to surface/uncover the hidden resistance which I sometimes experience as 'I can't physically do that' (sometimes I can, sometimes I can't) or as this vague feeling of 'how does that work/fit in?'

 

There is no doubt in my mind that I have a somatic map of a swing mentally. I feel pretty close right now to seeing its major pieces as a unit. This gives me a lot of confidence.

[Jim Waldron]

For high handicaps, mostly mental image but some mechanics.

 

For mid, about equal.

 

Low, mostly mechanics.

 

An important part of the coach's job is knowing how to ask the right questions and observe the body to elicit what the student's Swing Map is, ie the unconscious basic beliefs and mental images that drive the body motion.

 

When that breaks into conscious awareness is when real learning happens.

[oscar@wrx]

For high handicaps, mostly mental image but some mechanics.

 

For mid, about equal.

 

Low, mostly mechanics.

 

An important part of the coach's job is knowing how to ask the right questions and observe the body to elicit what the student's Swing Map is, ie the unconscious basic beliefs and mental images that drive the body motion.

 

When that breaks into conscious awareness is when real learning happens.

Hello Jim. Do you think the flip or early cupping of the left wrist (left wrist always eventually flips after impact) is caused by early uncocking of the left wrist?

[oscar@wrx]

Isn't flipping just a result of too early release? Too early release means too early uncocking, and once it uncocks, the left wrist would roll, you can't avoid it. Well, you can, and that's by actively preventing your left wrist to roll. Because of the centrifugal force of the clubhead, your left wrist hs no choice but to flip.

 

So I think the simple solution is don't release early

 

Sure, but why is anyone releasing too early? There's reasons for it and it's not as simple as don't release early. The release is early because it has to be.

IMO, most people are releasing early because they're moving their shoulders/arms/hands structure earlier than the lower body. I has to be the lower body ACTIVELY, and the hips has to move laterally while the upper body is kept back actively, mainly the left shoulder. This is the only way the club and left wrist c0ck could be stable--no sideways and downwards force on the club and left wrist

[TB07]

Isn't flipping just a result of too early release? Too early release means too early uncocking, and once it uncocks, the left wrist would roll, you can't avoid it. Well, you can, and that's by actively preventing your left wrist to roll. Because of the centrifugal force of the clubhead, your left wrist hs no choice but to flip.

 

So I think the simple solution is don't release early

 

Sure, but why is anyone releasing too early? There's reasons for it and it's not as simple as don't release early. The release is early because it has to be.

IMO, most people are releasing early because they're moving their shoulders/arms/hands structure earlier than the lower body. I has to be the lower body ACTIVELY, and the hips has to move laterally while the upper body is kept back actively, mainly the left shoulder. This is the only way the club and left wrist c0ck could be stable--no sideways and downwards force on the club and left wrist

 

Disagree. Never seen anyone not use their lower body first other than 35+ handicaps. There's plenty of reasons. The arms and club usually

trail the body, but again, there's reasons for that as well.

[oscar@wrx]

Isn't flipping just a result of too early release? Too early release means too early uncocking, and once it uncocks, the left wrist would roll, you can't avoid it. Well, you can, and that's by actively preventing your left wrist to roll. Because of the centrifugal force of the clubhead, your left wrist hs no choice but to flip.

 

So I think the simple solution is don't release early

 

Sure, but why is anyone releasing too early? There's reasons for it and it's not as simple as don't release early. The release is early because it has to be.

IMO, most people are releasing early because they're moving their shoulders/arms/hands structure earlier than the lower body. I has to be the lower body ACTIVELY, and the hips has to move laterally while the upper body is kept back actively, mainly the left shoulder. This is the only way the club and left wrist c0ck could be stable--no sideways and downwards force on the club and left wrist

 

Disagree. Never seen anyone not use their lower body first other than 35+ handicaps. There's plenty of reasons. The arms and club usually

trail the body, but again, there's reasons for that as well.

I mean actively move lower body first WHILE actively keeping shoulders, arms, hands and club back

[jut111]

What does actively mean? If someone does that naturally without thought, is that active?

[TB07]

Isn't flipping just a result of too early release? Too early release means too early uncocking, and once it uncocks, the left wrist would roll, you can't avoid it. Well, you can, and that's by actively preventing your left wrist to roll. Because of the centrifugal force of the clubhead, your left wrist hs no choice but to flip.

 

So I think the simple solution is don't release early

 

Sure, but why is anyone releasing too early? There's reasons for it and it's not as simple as don't release early. The release is early because it has to be.

IMO, most people are releasing early because they're moving their shoulders/arms/hands structure earlier than the lower body. I has to be the lower body ACTIVELY, and the hips has to move laterally while the upper body is kept back actively, mainly the left shoulder. This is the only way the club and left wrist c0ck could be stable--no sideways and downwards force on the club and left wrist

 

Disagree. Never seen anyone not use their lower body first other than 35+ handicaps. There's plenty of reasons. The arms and club usually

trail the body, but again, there's reasons for that as well.

I mean actively move lower body first WHILE actively keeping shoulders, arms, hands and club back

 

That advice caused myself and others to flip for years.

[MMB1500]

I'm going to attempt to summarise:

 

1. Fix the root cause of the problem that's causing the flip - early extension being a common one.

 

2. Learn how to release the hands properly up and down rather than side-to-side. Jim Waldron's wood chop video provides an excellent demonstration of this.

 

3. Train your mind so the ball is not your focus and the intent of your swing is not to hit the ball per se.

[martynbirch]

I'm going to attempt to summarise:

 

1. Fix the root cause of the problem that's causing the flip - early extension being a common one.

 

2. Learn how to release the hands properly up and down rather than side-to-side. Jim Waldron's wood chop video provides an excellent demonstration of this.

 

3. Train your mind so the ball is not your focus and the intent of your swing is not to hit the ball per se.

 

Nice

[bph7]

I'm going to attempt to summarise:

 

1. Fix the root cause of the problem that's causing the flip - early extension being a common one.

 

2. Learn how to release the hands properly up and down rather than side-to-side. Jim Waldron's wood chop video provides an excellent demonstration of this.

 

3. Train your mind so the ball is not your focus and the intent of your swing is not to hit the ball per se.

 

I wouldn't say EE is a root cause, that's also an effect. Gotta fix why you are doing that. For most, they are too steep and EE helps to shallow late.

[Jim Waldron]

For high handicaps, mostly mental image but some mechanics.

 

For mid, about equal.

 

Low, mostly mechanics.

 

An important part of the coach's job is knowing how to ask the right questions and observe the body to elicit what the student's Swing Map is, ie the unconscious basic beliefs and mental images that drive the body motion.

 

When that breaks into conscious awareness is when real learning happens.

Hello Jim. Do you think the flip or early cupping of the left wrist (left wrist always eventually flips after impact) is caused by early uncocking of the left wrist?

 

Yes on early wrist c0ck release (not just left wrist but right as well is c0cked, just not as much) causing the hinge angle in back of right wrist to release early, from momentum.

 

But also possible to NOT release the two c0ck angles early, and still flip just before and after impact.

 

You could add right arm/elbow angle releasing too early/too fast to that mix of causes as well.

[Jim Waldron]

I'm going to attempt to summarise:

 

1. Fix the root cause of the problem that's causing the flip - early extension being a common one.

 

2. Learn how to release the hands properly up and down rather than side-to-side. Jim Waldron's wood chop video provides an excellent demonstration of this.

 

3. Train your mind so the ball is not your focus and the intent of your swing is not to hit the ball per se.

 

I wouldn't say EE is a root cause, that's also an effect. Gotta fix why you are doing that. For most, they are too steep and EE helps to shallow late.

 

Yes - but why are they too steep? For a lot of mid to high handicaps it can sometimes be as simple as the Hit Impulse to move the clubhead out toward the ball in an OTT move.

 

I had a student recently who suffered from this, new golfer, who said to me "Jim, of course I am trying to move the clubhead toward the ball on the most direct route possible, since I am trying to get the clubhead there as quickly as possible so that I can hit the ball farther."

 

I showed him how to let the clubhead move toward the "east" and to move the clubhead with his Pivot, and not just his wrists and upper arms and right elbow angle, and it immediately caused his steep shaft to shallow.

[David C]

Never seen anyone flip that whilst getting weight forwards is driving the club into, through and beyond the ball. Everyone I see flipping is freewheeling at that point.

[oscar@wrx]

What does actively mean? If someone does that naturally without thought, is that active?

Actively I mean intentionally

[oscar@wrx]

That advice caused myself and others to flip for years.

Years? While intentionally keeping shoulders, arms, hands and club back? Why do you think it made you flip?

[TB07]

That advice caused myself and others to flip for years.

Years? While intentionally keeping shoulders, arms, hands and club back? Why do you think it made you flip?

 

Hips already move first and in addition to that they have the shortest distance to travel from the top. Actively getting them to move sooner just leaves everything else behind. When arms are behind only way to reach the ball is flip the club head

[EKELLY]

Try fishing, as the old flip/flick comes in handy with a fly rod......LOL

[bph7]

Never seen anyone flip that whilst getting weight forwards is driving the club into, through and beyond the ball. Everyone I see flipping is freewheeling at that point.

 

Weight/pressure isn't really as far "forward" at impact as you think. As for the rest, I have no idea what "driving the club" through and beyond the ball means. To the extent you are attempting to say that you've neve seen anyone flip that doesn't flip, yes I agree. Beyond that, just seems like generic jargon and incorrect assumptions.

[oscar@wrx]

That advice caused myself and others to flip for years.

Years? While intentionally keeping shoulders, arms, hands and club back? Why do you think it made you flip?

 

Hips already move first and in addition to that they have the shortest distance to travel from the top. Actively getting them to move sooner just leaves everything else behind. When arms are behind only way to reach the ball is flip the club head

I don't think I agree. When arms are behind and the left wrist uncocks and therefore club starts releasing, yes you flip. But if lower body gets ahead and arms are behind, but left wrist and club are stable (doesn't release), that is even ideal because you preserve all power sources while getting down into the slot, and shifting to a different plane

[oscar@wrx]

That advice caused myself and others to flip for years.

Years? While intentionally keeping shoulders, arms, hands and club back? Why do you think it made you flip?

 

Hips already move first and in addition to that they have the shortest distance to travel from the top. Actively getting them to move sooner just leaves everything else behind. When arms are behind only way to reach the ball is flip the club head

I don't think I agree. When arms are behind and the left wrist uncocks and therefore club starts releasing, yes you flip. But if lower body gets ahead and arms are behind, but left wrist and club are stable (doesn't release), that is even ideal because you preserve all power sources while getting down into the slot, and shifting to a different plane

This is why in transition, you aim to get the left wrist not to uncock, by keeping the right wrist and elbow bent, and you try to keep the shoulders and arms back.

 

If the left wrist starts to uncock in transition, left wrist starts to roll instantly as well, so you're forced to flip to avoid rolling the left wrist too much. So in this case, flipping is mandatory, a ball-saving measure, not really a cause or consequence per se

[oscar@wrx]

Never seen anyone flip that whilst getting weight forwards is driving the club into, through and beyond the ball. Everyone I see flipping is freewheeling at that point.

 

Weight/pressure isn't really as far "forward" at impact as you think. As for the rest, I have no idea what "driving the club" through and beyond the ball means. To the extent you are attempting to say that you've neve seen anyone flip that doesn't flip, yes I agree. Beyond that, just seems like generic jargon and incorrect assumptions.

Those who are able to get the weight forward thru impact are the ones who are able to delay the release of the club. The late release almost all legends are talking about. The late release is a prerequisite for weight forward, otherwise you'll end up hitting the ground a feet before the ball.

 

Not saying weight forward is the prerequisite. It's the other way around

[Golfrnut]

That advice caused myself and others to flip for years.

Years? While intentionally keeping shoulders, arms, hands and club back? Why do you think it made you flip?

 

Hips already move first and in addition to that they have the shortest distance to travel from the top. Actively getting them to move sooner just leaves everything else behind. When arms are behind only way to reach the ball is flip the club head

I don't think I agree. When arms are behind and the left wrist uncocks and therefore club starts releasing, yes you flip. But if lower body gets ahead and arms are behind, but left wrist and club are stable (doesn't release), that is even ideal because you preserve all power sources while getting down into the slot, and shifting to a different plane

This is why in transition, you aim to get the left wrist not to uncock, by keeping the right wrist and elbow bent, and you try to keep the shoulders and arms back.

 

If the left wrist starts to uncock in transition, left wrist starts to roll instantly as well, so you're forced to flip to avoid rolling the left wrist too much. So in this case, flipping is mandatory, a ball-saving measure, not really a cause or consequence per se

 

The way I understand it, acceleration is what keeps the wrist c0ck in the first place. It's the decel of the arms that release the angle, even in a good swing. When the arms trail, the ability to accelerate the arms is lost, so therfor so is the wrist angle.

 

I can't do anything but 100% agree with TB. I have an arm overrun ans suffer from the exact same thing. The end result, but not the cause, is a bottom end flip.

[oscar@wrx]

The way I understand it, acceleration is what keeps the wrist c0ck in the first place. It's the decel of the arms that release the angle, even in a good swing. When the arms trail, the ability to accelerate the arms is lost, so therfor so is the wrist angle.

 

I can't do anything but 100% agree with TB. I have an arm overrun ans suffer from the exact same thing. The end result, but not the cause, is a bottom end flip.

You don't have to accelerate the hands to keep the wrist c0ck if you're able to keep or delay the shoulders, etc. back. If from the top you move the shoulders, arms or hands, yes you have to accelerate to keep the hands ahead of the clubhead, thereby keeping the wrist c0ck. Sort of like dragging the handle from the top