How do you get rid of the flick/flip instinct? POST 120-UPDATE

[Dave D]

By the way, Jim Waldron who also instructs says that you need to learn to ignore the ball to get rid of the flip which sounds to me like he believes it's a mental issue. Do you agree with that or do you selectively pick instructors to side with?

i think Jim meant more that people's intents are wrong, that they get so fixated on the ball they hit AT the ball, with all their effort going into hitting the ball. whereas you should get your intent to swing fastest out past the ball, the ball gets in the way.

[naval2006]

Here's the P6 you want:

 

 

 

I'm gonna show it to my kid and tell him "THIS IS WHAT HAPPENS WHEN YOU DO YOU TUBE GOLF".

[dap]

By the way, Jim Waldron who also instructs says that you need to learn to ignore the ball to get rid of the flip which sounds to me like he believes it's a mental issue. Do you agree with that or do you selectively pick instructors to side with?

i think Jim meant more that people's intents are wrong, that they get so fixated on the ball they hit AT the ball, with all their effort going into hitting the ball. whereas you should get your intent to swing fastest out past the ball, the ball gets in the way.

I think the hit impulse in golf is more related to the scoop impulse. It's a natural instinct to try to help an object lying on the ground to get off the ground. If you told a child to kick a soccer ball into the air he/she would kick up on the ball, not kick down and stub the ball into the ground but that is exactly what you want in golf. The loft on the club will get the ball in the air but it's against our instincts to do it. Trying to flick the ball into the air also results in loss of lag so you get a double whammy.

[Jim Waldron]

I think it is a mistake to view all swing flaws as ONLY the result of some other deeper, more hidden mechanical flaw. Certainly that is often the case, but there is a whole other category of swing flaws that are the result of a kind of toxic mental picture - either conscious or subconscious or both - that causes the body to react in a way that creates bad golf shots.

 

I see four destructive such Impulses: scooping as dap is discussing here - wrong understanding of how a golf ball gets airborne;, hit impulse - wrong understanding of what makes a golf ball go a long distance; steering impulse - wrong understanding of what makes a golf ball go straight; and helping impact impulse - wrong understanding of Release and impact.

 

They all result in observable mechanical flaws - like flipping - but the root cause of the flip is 100% that toxic mental picture.

 

When I help my students understand why and how they are holding that toxic mental picture, and replace it with the proper mental picture - their body mechanics instantly change for the better.

 

This is an example of the mind/body connection in action.

[ayan]

I think it is a mistake to view all swing flaws as ONLY the result of some other deeper, more hidden mechanical flaw. Certainly that is often the case, but there is a whole other category of swing flaws that are the result of a kind of toxic mental picture - either conscious or subconscious or both - that causes the body to react in a way that creates bad golf shots.

 

I see four destructive such Impulses: scooping as dap is discussing here - wrong understanding of how a golf ball gets airborne;, hit impulse - wrong understanding of what makes a golf ball go a long distance; steering impulse - wrong understanding of what makes a golf ball go straight; and helping impact impulse - wrong understanding of Release and impact.

 

They all result in observable mechanical flaws - like flipping - but the root cause of the flip is 100% that toxic mental picture.

 

When I help my students understand why and how they are holding that toxic mental picture, and replace it with the proper mental picture - their body mechanics instantly change for the better.

 

This is an example of the mind/body connection in action.

 

What you say makes a LOT of sense to me, Jim. I have come to believe that in the absence of natural talent, which I don’t have, a good swing will probably only develop after having a good objective of what it is we’re trying to achieve and trusting that end goal. One often sees responses along the lines of "flipping is caused by a swing flaw, correct the flaw and the flipping will disappear." Perhaps teachers that emphasize this know that engraining good swing habits one at a time will eventually lead to a good swing. I am no teacher. For a long time I worked using the on one swing flaw at a time approach, striving to get to a good impact position. It proved to be very frustrating as I felt I was juggling too many things at the same time, things that I felt were entirely unrelated to one another. I realize that there’s a chance that all that work still helped me, even if I felt it did not.

 

To me, for a person who has never experienced a decent impact position, a statement like “fix the swing flaws” lacks a solid context. I believe a swing will more easily start to correct itself if the person knows what the end result needs to be and feel like. If one's objective is to get to the ball and strike it a certain way, whether it be a "good" way or a "bad way," one will most likely try to repeat that pretty much regardless of everything that comes before. Put a decent player at a good static P6 and ask him to hit the ball, and he will probably back up a little bit bringing the club head behind him, then turn and strike the ball well. Put a bad player at a good static P6 and ask him the same and he will probably back up a bit, taking the club outside and upwards and scoop at the ball from there. I saw that countless times watching videos of myself when I started working towards having a more decent position at impact.

 

By working on hitting punch shots, right arm swings, deliberately bowing the left wrist and hitting chips, at some point my brain started to get comfortable with the notion that letting the club head stay behind the hands was a viable way to hit a decent shot. After that, suddenly, getting the hands to the ball before the club head became easy without holding any angles, even feeling pretty syrupy. It is not that the body doesn't do a number of things differently to get there, it definitely does. Watching videos of my own swing over time I noticed that I did slow everything down, closed the face coming into P6, kept my elbows closer together, my right wrist bent, etc. But none of those things was done in isolation, they were all byproducts of my trying to get my hands to the ball before the club head, trusting that I would be able to hit the ball well that way. I had an overarching purpose and it was something I had become comfortable with.

 

I remember originally thinking that, for example, Bradley Hughes’ approach – he has his students start working from impact backwards – was weird. At the time I started reading his articles and watching his videos, my instructor was having me working so hard on my backswing, while Bradley was saying the backswing was more of a personal choice. Fast forward to today, I think there is a lot of merit to what Bradley says. If one experiences a good impact position, it will probably be much easier for the body to figure out how to return there, one bit at a time. Go from a good impact position back to P6 and figure and feel how everything needs to be moving to get from P6 to impact, then keep going further back from there. It doesn’t take too long to learn that even if one arrives at a good looking static P6, but from a poor downswing, it will be hard to get to a good impact position from there. That will help develop a feeling for coming into P6 in a way that supports what one is going to try to do after that.

[TKS]

I was having what I'd call the flippy yips with my chipping / pitching generally my 58* club. The fix started with going to a JumboMax XL grip. Took my wrist/hands right out of the swing.

[Darth Leverage]

The route to greater consistency for me is to avoid flicking at impact. I'm not flipping the club face shut but am stalling and flicking with my right hand.

 

If no ball is there I can do punisher drill type impact no problem with a good pivot, but when a ball is there my right wrist can't go past without flapping at it and my pivot stalls.

 

Does flip cause stall or vice versa? Thinking of buying DST as recommended by some but mixed reviews putting me off shelling out for yet another 'miracle cure'

 

You have a fault in your swing that is forcing that move. Eliminate that.

 

THIS

[martynbirch]

The route to greater consistency for me is to avoid flicking at impact. I'm not flipping the club face shut but am stalling and flicking with my right hand.

 

If no ball is there I can do punisher drill type impact no problem with a good pivot, but when a ball is there my right wrist can't go past without flapping at it and my pivot stalls.

 

Does flip cause stall or vice versa? Thinking of buying DST as recommended by some but mixed reviews putting me off shelling out for yet another 'miracle cure'

 

You have a fault in your swing that is forcing that move. Eliminate that.

 

THIS

 

Yes, I know, in fact I have several as I mention in post 43, plus an open face at P6 which I forgot. I think I also have the scooping and hit impulse Jim W mentions in post 65, I've never felt what it SHOULD feel like for one reason or another, but if I can get this feeling, no matter how artificial it is, I can hopefully make some progress in getting there and put things right before flipping at impact for whatever reason.

[oscar@wrx]

How about actively keep pressuring the base of left thumb with the base of the right palm? Isn't this a great solution?

[MPStrat]

I think it is a mistake to view all swing flaws as ONLY the result of some other deeper, more hidden mechanical flaw. Certainly that is often the case, but there is a whole other category of swing flaws that are the result of a kind of toxic mental picture - either conscious or subconscious or both - that causes the body to react in a way that creates bad golf shots.

 

I see four destructive such Impulses: scooping as dap is discussing here - wrong understanding of how a golf ball gets airborne;, hit impulse - wrong understanding of what makes a golf ball go a long distance; steering impulse - wrong understanding of what makes a golf ball go straight; and helping impact impulse - wrong understanding of Release and impact.

 

They all result in observable mechanical flaws - like flipping - but the root cause of the flip is 100% that toxic mental picture.

 

When I help my students understand why and how they are holding that toxic mental picture, and replace it with the proper mental picture - their body mechanics instantly change for the better.

 

This is an example of the mind/body connection in action.

 

Agree 100%. Flaws are easy to see on 2D video, but incorrect mental pictures are what keep people from being able to fix them. Like Mike Malaska says, the hardest part about the golf swing is that you can't see it, all you see is effects. These bad pictures are why people have lifelong battles with whipping the club inside, can't make a hip turn, can't make a shoulder turn.. just to name a few. They can beat balls for 10 years trying to change it, but until that picture changes and their brain understands how to do it correctly it will never change. Once their brain understands how to make the 3d movement, change will be immediate and lasting. The hard part for someone going it at themselves is knowing how that change affects other things down the chain. They may give up because their new "correct" movement doesn't match their old compensations.

[Petunia Sprinkle]

Isn't flipping just a result of too early release? Too early release means too early uncocking, and once it uncocks, the left wrist would roll, you can't avoid it. Well, you can, and that's by actively preventing your left wrist to roll. Because of the centrifugal force of the clubhead, your left wrist hs no choice but to flip.

 

So I think the simple solution is don't release early

 

Disagree, at least for the majority of flippers. They flip cause if they didn't they wouldn't hit a functional shot or miss the ball altogether. Something has occurred before that makes a compensation necessary.

 

I flipped thinking I needed to square the clubface and then wondered why I was hooking the ball so badly. Stopped flipping and it went straight. So, in my case, flipping wasn't caused by anything other than a stupid notion.

[mwkbmw]

I used to play golf with a fellow named Henry Limpet. HORRIBLE flipping problem.

 

 

 

 

 

:D If I haven't given away my age before... oh, well.

[Petunia Sprinkle]

I used to play golf with a fellow named Henry Limpet. HORRIBLE flipping problem.

 

 

:D If I haven't given away my age before... oh, well.

 

Not all dolphins are flippers, young man!

[mwkbmw]

I used to play golf with a fellow named Henry Limpet. HORRIBLE flipping problem.

 

 

:D If I haven't given away my age before... oh, well.

 

Not all dolphins are flippers, young man!

 

Must have been the Andy Griffith Show last night that caused that to pop in my head.

 

Have a great day! :)

[Shilgy]

I used to play golf with a fellow named Henry Limpet. HORRIBLE flipping problem.

 

 

 

 

 

:D If I haven't given away my age before... oh, well.

Why.... wait for it... that's INCREDIBLE!

 

:) now I gave my age way as well.

[pusb365]

I think it is a mistake to view all swing flaws as ONLY the result of some other deeper, more hidden mechanical flaw. Certainly that is often the case, but there is a whole other category of swing flaws that are the result of a kind of toxic mental picture - either conscious or subconscious or both - that causes the body to react in a way that creates bad golf shots.

 

I see four destructive such Impulses: scooping as dap is discussing here - wrong understanding of how a golf ball gets airborne;, hit impulse - wrong understanding of what makes a golf ball go a long distance; steering impulse - wrong understanding of what makes a golf ball go straight; and helping impact impulse - wrong understanding of Release and impact.

 

They all result in observable mechanical flaws - like flipping - but the root cause of the flip is 100% that toxic mental picture.

 

When I help my students understand why and how they are holding that toxic mental picture, and replace it with the proper mental picture - their body mechanics instantly change for the better.

 

This is an example of the mind/body connection in action.

 

I completely understand what you're saying.

 

However, I feel I have a very good understanding of what a good impact position should look like, and I can replicate this position in slow motion.

 

So if I don't have this toxic mental picture how come I still flip and can't get into a good impact position?

 

I'm not trying to be funny or rude, and I know golf is not simple, I am just genuinely curious and interested to understand what you mean.

[PutterKilledTheDream]

The same reason you see guys flushing one after another on the range and then step onto the first tee and whiff one. As soon as perceived pressure, tension, fear, whatever have you creeps in..... the swing changes.

 

 

[Jim Waldron]

I think it is a mistake to view all swing flaws as ONLY the result of some other deeper, more hidden mechanical flaw. Certainly that is often the case, but there is a whole other category of swing flaws that are the result of a kind of toxic mental picture - either conscious or subconscious or both - that causes the body to react in a way that creates bad golf shots.

 

I see four destructive such Impulses: scooping as dap is discussing here - wrong understanding of how a golf ball gets airborne;, hit impulse - wrong understanding of what makes a golf ball go a long distance; steering impulse - wrong understanding of what makes a golf ball go straight; and helping impact impulse - wrong understanding of Release and impact.

 

They all result in observable mechanical flaws - like flipping - but the root cause of the flip is 100% that toxic mental picture.

 

When I help my students understand why and how they are holding that toxic mental picture, and replace it with the proper mental picture - their body mechanics instantly change for the better.

 

This is an example of the mind/body connection in action.

 

I completely understand what you're saying.

 

However, I feel I have a very good understanding of what a good impact position should look like, and I can replicate this position in slow motion.

 

So if I don't have this toxic mental picture how come I still flip and can't get into a good impact position?

 

I'm not trying to be funny or rude, and I know golf is not simple, I am just genuinely curious and interested to understand what you mean.

 

What PTKD said, plus, as I said - possible to hold the proper mental picture in your conscious mind (very common) and hold the toxic mental picture in the subconscious (also very common) - guess who wins? Subconscious every time. It's why golf can be so frustrating - just knowing intellectually what "correct" is will not help if you have the polar opposite belief/picture in your subconscious.

 

The great American psychologist and philosopher William James famously said "In a conflict between the Will (conscious mind) and Imagination (subconscious) - Imagination always wins".

 

 

Also, as I stated, quite often it is indeed that your poor mechanic prior to Release require you to flip to make contact with the ball.

[Jim Waldron]

I think it is a mistake to view all swing flaws as ONLY the result of some other deeper, more hidden mechanical flaw. Certainly that is often the case, but there is a whole other category of swing flaws that are the result of a kind of toxic mental picture - either conscious or subconscious or both - that causes the body to react in a way that creates bad golf shots.

 

I see four destructive such Impulses: scooping as dap is discussing here - wrong understanding of how a golf ball gets airborne;, hit impulse - wrong understanding of what makes a golf ball go a long distance; steering impulse - wrong understanding of what makes a golf ball go straight; and helping impact impulse - wrong understanding of Release and impact.

 

They all result in observable mechanical flaws - like flipping - but the root cause of the flip is 100% that toxic mental picture.

 

When I help my students understand why and how they are holding that toxic mental picture, and replace it with the proper mental picture - their body mechanics instantly change for the better.

 

This is an example of the mind/body connection in action.

 

Agree 100%. Flaws are easy to see on 2D video, but incorrect mental pictures are what keep people from being able to fix them. Like Mike Malaska says, the hardest part about the golf swing is that you can't see it, all you see is effects. These bad pictures are why people have lifelong battles with whipping the club inside, can't make a hip turn, can't make a shoulder turn.. just to name a few. They can beat balls for 10 years trying to change it, but until that picture changes and their brain understands how to do it correctly it will never change. Once their brain understands how to make the 3d movement, change will be immediate and lasting. The hard part for someone going it at themselves is knowing how that change affects other things down the chain. They may give up because their new "correct" movement doesn't match their old compensations.

 

Fantastic post!

 

You explained it perfectly. If you are using a mind/body connection approach to golf teaching - as I have since 1992 - then you have to ALWAYS take into account what the mental pictures, beliefs, and concepts the student is likely holding in their subconscious mind, since the body literally has no choice but to manifest in it's motion those pictures, beliefs and concepts.

 

It's why when the student has what I call a "Deep Insight" about the part of his swing that is causing him problems, as you said, on the very next swing we see a massive improvement in the body mechanics. A lot of my teaching methodology is based on the notion of helping the student to see through common 2D Illusions, and to start to "picture" the golf swing as the body moving through 3D space.

[asterisk]

So a decent golfer has a flip and goes to a very good instructor and they identify the root cause as an incorrect position in the backswing and fix it and after some work the flip disappears and never returns. The instructor never mentions anything about bad mental picture or a 2d illusion and the student gets fixed anyways by working on a mechanical fix.

 

How does that happen? If you had a bad mental picture how could the flip go away from a mechanical correction? If you didn't have a bad mental picture how did you get a flip in the first place? How would one even know if your subconscious mind is making you flip? The subconscious mind is a non communicating dictator it's not telling you what it's doing so how would a complete stranger to your subconscious know what it's doing?

[bph7]

So a decent golfer has a flip and goes to a very good instructor and they identify the root cause as an incorrect position in the backswing and fix it and after some work the flip disappears and never returns. The instructor never mentions anything about bad mental picture or a 2d illusion and the student gets fixed anyways by working on a mechanical fix.

 

How does that happen? If you had a bad mental picture how could the flip go away from a mechanical correction? If you didn't have a bad mental picture how did you get a flip in the first place? How would one even know if your subconscious mind is making you flip? The subconscious mind is a non communicating dictator it's not telling you what it's doing so how would a complete stranger to your subconscious know what it's doing?

 

You are flipping in most cases because flipping HELPS people's ballstriking especially when they are steep/arms behind. That's why it's so hard to fix IMO. In most cases, flipping is the only thing that results in functional ballstriking. That's why you need to fix the reason why your body is making you flip. If you do that, then your body won't want to flip. I really disagree that's it's a result of any kind of impulse or anything, it's just your body reacting the way it needs to so you don't hit it 40 yards right. Once you get to a place where a flip would actually hurt your ballflight, your body is more likely to adjust by not flipping. But that's hard place for many to get to.

[ofortuna]

So a decent golfer has a flip and goes to a very good instructor and they identify the root cause as an incorrect position in the backswing and fix it and after some work the flip disappears and never returns. The instructor never mentions anything about bad mental picture or a 2d illusion and the student gets fixed anyways by working on a mechanical fix.

 

How does that happen? If you had a bad mental picture how could the flip go away from a mechanical correction? If you didn't have a bad mental picture how did you get a flip in the first place? How would one even know if your subconscious mind is making you flip? The subconscious mind is a non communicating dictator it's not telling you what it's doing so how would a complete stranger to your subconscious know what it's doing?

 

Your subconscious isn't an alien with a mind control machine. It's you. It's the sum of all your knowledge of how to get the ball moving up and fast towards the target. If you think that snapping your right wrist towards the target at impact will create clubhead speed, that's imbedded into your subconscious and will make your flip at the bottom when you're really letting out the shaft.

[Jim Waldron]

So a decent golfer has a flip and goes to a very good instructor and they identify the root cause as an incorrect position in the backswing and fix it and after some work the flip disappears and never returns. The instructor never mentions anything about bad mental picture or a 2d illusion and the student gets fixed anyways by working on a mechanical fix.

 

How does that happen? If you had a bad mental picture how could the flip go away from a mechanical correction? If you didn't have a bad mental picture how did you get a flip in the first place? How would one even know if your subconscious mind is making you flip? The subconscious mind is a non communicating dictator it's not telling you what it's doing so how would a complete stranger to your subconscious know what it's doing?

 

You are flipping in most cases because flipping HELPS people's ballstriking especially when they are steep/arms behind. That's why it's so hard to fix IMO. In most cases, flipping is the only thing that results in functional ballstriking. That's why you need to fix the reason why your body is making you flip. If you do that, then your body won't want to flip. I really disagree that's it's a result of any kind of impulse or anything, it's just your body reacting the way it needs to so you don't hit it 40 yards right. Once you get to a place where a flip would actually hurt your ballflight, your body is more likely to adjust by not flipping. But that's hard place for many to get to.

 

I can only tell you my experience, which is easily many hundreds of golfers who learned to stop the flip by changing their mental picture, or "impulse" inhibition/elimination.

 

Meaning the student had a powerful "light bulb" moment and instantly stopped flipping.

 

We are not machines, our mind and beliefs have a strong effect on how the body moves.

[bph7]

So a decent golfer has a flip and goes to a very good instructor and they identify the root cause as an incorrect position in the backswing and fix it and after some work the flip disappears and never returns. The instructor never mentions anything about bad mental picture or a 2d illusion and the student gets fixed anyways by working on a mechanical fix.

 

How does that happen? If you had a bad mental picture how could the flip go away from a mechanical correction? If you didn't have a bad mental picture how did you get a flip in the first place? How would one even know if your subconscious mind is making you flip? The subconscious mind is a non communicating dictator it's not telling you what it's doing so how would a complete stranger to your subconscious know what it's doing?

 

You are flipping in most cases because flipping HELPS people's ballstriking especially when they are steep/arms behind. That's why it's so hard to fix IMO. In most cases, flipping is the only thing that results in functional ballstriking. That's why you need to fix the reason why your body is making you flip. If you do that, then your body won't want to flip. I really disagree that's it's a result of any kind of impulse or anything, it's just your body reacting the way it needs to so you don't hit it 40 yards right. Once you get to a place where a flip would actually hurt your ballflight, your body is more likely to adjust by not flipping. But that's hard place for many to get to.

 

I can only tell you my experience, which is easily many hundreds of golfers who learned to stop the flip by changing their mental picture, or "impulse" inhibition/elimination.

 

Meaning the student had a powerful "light bulb" moment and instantly stopped flipping.

 

We are not machines, our mind and beliefs have a strong effect on how the body moves.

 

Jim, you obviously have far more experience in this than I do, so I'm not attempting to discredit what you are saying. However, in my experience with several excellent instructors, the flip was always a response to being in an less than ideal position before P6, and once that was fixed, I no longer NEEDED to flip. That's what fixed it. I never felt like I had any impulse, in fact, when I got a lesson from Monte, he suggested I had too much shaft lean and that was what was causing the issues. In the lesson with Monte, once we worked my issues, it was easy to just release naturally without the need to flip

[Jim Waldron]

So a decent golfer has a flip and goes to a very good instructor and they identify the root cause as an incorrect position in the backswing and fix it and after some work the flip disappears and never returns. The instructor never mentions anything about bad mental picture or a 2d illusion and the student gets fixed anyways by working on a mechanical fix.

 

How does that happen? If you had a bad mental picture how could the flip go away from a mechanical correction? If you didn't have a bad mental picture how did you get a flip in the first place? How would one even know if your subconscious mind is making you flip? The subconscious mind is a non communicating dictator it's not telling you what it's doing so how would a complete stranger to your subconscious know what it's doing?

 

You are flipping in most cases because flipping HELPS people's ballstriking especially when they are steep/arms behind. That's why it's so hard to fix IMO. In most cases, flipping is the only thing that results in functional ballstriking. That's why you need to fix the reason why your body is making you flip. If you do that, then your body won't want to flip. I really disagree that's it's a result of any kind of impulse or anything, it's just your body reacting the way it needs to so you don't hit it 40 yards right. Once you get to a place where a flip would actually hurt your ballflight, your body is more likely to adjust by not flipping. But that's hard place for many to get to.

 

I can only tell you my experience, which is easily many hundreds of golfers who learned to stop the flip by changing their mental picture, or "impulse" inhibition/elimination.

 

Meaning the student had a powerful "light bulb" moment and instantly stopped flipping.

 

We are not machines, our mind and beliefs have a strong effect on how the body moves.

 

Jim, you obviously have far more experience in this than I do, so I'm not attempting to discredit what you are saying. However, in my experience with several excellent instructors, the flip was always a response to being in an less than ideal position before P6, and once that was fixed, I no longer NEEDED to flip. That's what fixed it. I never felt like I had any impulse, in fact, when I got a lesson from Monte, he suggested I had too much shaft lean and that was what was causing the issues. In the lesson with Monte, once we worked my issues, it was easy to just release naturally without the need to flip

 

Right, I already stated - twice - that this is one way to fix a flip - just not the ONLY way.

 

HIgh handicaps especially - vast majority in my experience - do in fact hold a conscious and subconscious toxic image of Release and Impact that is the literal definition of a flip. I have done clinics with lots of folks in attendance and ask them "which way should your wrists release in a good swing - sideways like this (as I show them a flip) or downwards like this (showing them unc0cking down with no flip)"

 

I ask for hands and about 80-90% of the group will raise their hands when I demo a flip.

 

The brain wants to move the club and arrive at impact in a way that "makes sense" to the person, and unfortunately, there are a few very common toxic beliefs about how the club should move to get the ball airborne, in the direction of the target, and in a long game shot, to travel a long distance. Those beliefs create the poor body mechanics.

 

I had a woman student about 15 years ago who really struggled with her game, very high handicap, always scooping and making poor contact. She took a 3 day school on the golf swing and a follow up lesson a few weeks later. Even though intellectually she knew that her main flaw was the flip/scoop, her body would not stop flipping.

 

I tried everything, including training aids, and nothing worked.

 

I took a golf ball, put it in a vise, and drove a large nail through it.

 

Took it to the lesson tee the next morning, put a towel down on the grass, and had her lie down prone on the ground.

 

Put my golf ball with the nail on the grass, her head about 3 feet away, watching the ball, especially the nail head end, which was out the back of the ball on a 45 degree angle toward the sky.

 

Took my PW and very slowly made a descending angle of attack, and touched the head of the nail with the sweetspot of my wedge.

 

Over and over, while she watched.

 

After about 5 minutes she jumps up and shouts "Are you f....... kidding me? THAT is what my clubhead is supposed to do just before and during impact? Oh my god! I have been trying to slide the clubhead UNDER THE GOLF BALL TO LIFT IT INTO THE AIR!!!

 

Why did you not tell me this before!"

 

I laughed and reminded her that I and my staff had in fact "told her" that the clubhead makes a descending blow, yada yada yada.. and we did a whole 90 minutes on that Law of Club Motion on the very first day of her 3 day school, and she had read the 200 page manual on the golf swing that comes with that class - which clearly states this in several pages...

 

She says "Oh, sure I heard you say all that but I did not think you really meant it....everybody knows the clubhead has to go up if you want your ball to go up...it's just common sense..

 

I am not making this up.

 

I hand her her 7 iron - and she starts hitting down, taking a divot in front, and hitting really nice 7 irons, one after another.

[dap]

I think it is a mistake to view all swing flaws as ONLY the result of some other deeper, more hidden mechanical flaw. Certainly that is often the case, but there is a whole other category of swing flaws that are the result of a kind of toxic mental picture - either conscious or subconscious or both - that causes the body to react in a way that creates bad golf shots.

 

I see four destructive such Impulses: scooping as dap is discussing here - wrong understanding of how a golf ball gets airborne;, hit impulse - wrong understanding of what makes a golf ball go a long distance; steering impulse - wrong understanding of what makes a golf ball go straight; and helping impact impulse - wrong understanding of Release and impact.

 

They all result in observable mechanical flaws - like flipping - but the root cause of the flip is 100% that toxic mental picture.

 

When I help my students understand why and how they are holding that toxic mental picture, and replace it with the proper mental picture - their body mechanics instantly change for the better.

 

This is an example of the mind/body connection in action.

 

I completely understand what you're saying.

 

However, I feel I have a very good understanding of what a good impact position should look like, and I can replicate this position in slow motion.

 

So if I don't have this toxic mental picture how come I still flip and can't get into a good impact position?

 

I'm not trying to be funny or rude, and I know golf is not simple, I am just genuinely curious and interested to understand what you mean.

Replicating a position be it at impact or p6 statically or in slow motion won't produce those positions in a real swing. If it were that simple golf wouldn't be as hard as it is. The fact is, the mental picture of how you want to strike a golf ball is obviously still incorrect otherwise you wouldn't be flipping despite your knowledge of what a good impact or p6 should look like. Things change the moment you put a ball in front of you and you try to smack it 250+ yards.

[Jim Waldron]

There are just a few primary root causes for how the body moves in the golf swing at normal full speed tempo - and conscious mind swing thoughts are not one of them.

 

1. subconscious mind conclusions, beliefs, visual "pictures", and concepts about how the club moves, impact, swing shape, and power generation/application.

 

2. fitness of the body - flexibility, core strength, overall fitness.

 

3. Balance - a hugely influential governing factor that in many respects is more important than Mechanics due to the natural "righting instinct".

 

4. dominant mechanical habits including compensatory motions.

 

5. athletic talent.

 

6. the strength of the brain-mind/body connection, including physical coordination.

 

7. mental focus (or lack thereof!) and Awareness.

 

8. the club itself, ie clubs that fit you - or don't fit, will cause the body to react in a positive or negative way.

 

10. Tempo and Rhythm.

 

It is possible to have the correct mental pictures - same as a tour pro - and still suffer from poor ballstriking, if any of the other categories are missing or weak.

 

But I have found that for mid to high caps, who are reasonably fit, and have decent tempo and balance, that the first category listed usually has a profound effect on their ability to play good golf shots.

 

Anyone who has read the classic "On Learning Golf" by Percy Boomer will understand how the mind/body connection works when learning the golf swing. Boomer was the number one teacher in Europe and the first modern teacher to use the premise that your subconscious mental pictures and beliefs was the root cause of how the body moves.

[wmblake2000]

 

Agree 100%. Flaws are easy to see on 2D video, but incorrect mental pictures are what keep people from being able to fix them. Like Mike Malaska says, the hardest part about the golf swing is that you can't see it, all you see is effects. These bad pictures are why people have lifelong battles with whipping the club inside, can't make a hip turn, can't make a shoulder turn.. just to name a few. They can beat balls for 10 years trying to change it, but until that picture changes and their brain understands how to do it correctly it will never change. Once their brain understands how to make the 3d movement, change will be immediate and lasting. The hard part for someone going it at themselves is knowing how that change affects other things down the chain. They may give up because their new "correct" movement doesn't match their old compensations.

 

There really is a moment in the process for me when i 'get it' - from that point on, the change is easy. I sometimes have to 'get it' more than once for it to last, but once the threshold is passed, it's easy. But for this image to last, I also have to understand it cognitively and not just as an image or feel. I seem to need all parts of my mind and body getting it.

[asterisk]

So a decent golfer has a flip and goes to a very good instructor and they identify the root cause as an incorrect position in the backswing and fix it and after some work the flip disappears and never returns. The instructor never mentions anything about bad mental picture or a 2d illusion and the student gets fixed anyways by working on a mechanical fix.

 

How does that happen? If you had a bad mental picture how could the flip go away from a mechanical correction? If you didn't have a bad mental picture how did you get a flip in the first place? How would one even know if your subconscious mind is making you flip? The subconscious mind is a non communicating dictator it's not telling you what it's doing so how would a complete stranger to your subconscious know what it's doing?

 

Your subconscious isn't an alien with a mind control machine. It's you. It's the sum of all your knowledge of how to get the ball moving up and fast towards the target. If you think that snapping your right wrist towards the target at impact will create clubhead speed, that's imbedded into your subconscious and will make your flip at the bottom when you're really letting out the shaft.

 

Well if you're thinking then it's conscious not subconscious. The subconscious doesn't communicate as conscious thought! It's a non communicating dictator...so you or anyone else does not know what it's doing. If you or anyone else did they wouldn't need hypnosis to unlock the mysteries of the dictator!

 

To learn requires conscious thought and many reps before the subconscious gets a program it wants to run, the only way to change it is to do a new program consciously which is a mechanical change to your motion using conscious input. Other wise you could just change your mental picture which is by the way a conscious mental exercise and voila you're fixed............. not!

[Jim Waldron]

The great tour pro and teacher Jacke Burke Jr famously said "I ain't never seen no video camera show me what is going on in the student's subconscious mind - which is all that really matters".