Jack Nicklaus Club Specs

[Kirasdad]

Well said HC. I find my friends, who are all good players and very knowledgable about the game, their games, and their equipment, make similar mistakes as what you described your playing companion was doing in your post. My buddies know a lot about their INDIVIDUAL clubs in their bag, driver, fwy woods, and hybrids especially, can quote the specs etc., but they really haven't given a great deal of thought to how they all fit together. Different shafts in irons compared to hybrids and wedges with flexes and weights all over the map. Golf is a complicated game, but we can make it simpler. Find a driver (almost everyone could go shorter there, Tom Wishon reccomends most amateurs be in the 43.5-44.5 range) that you can hit in the fairway more often than not. Then a set of consistently gapped irons with the same weighted and flexed shafts thru about a 56 wedge. Most folks could toss their lob and be MUCH better off, and I include me in that assessment and I'm a single digit. The lob overall costs me more shots that it saves me. If I played every day maybe, but who gets to do that? If regular non tour folks played with a vintage type set up, not vintage clubs per se, but the organizing principle therein, handicaps would go down fun would go up, and there would be much less obsessing over what number to set your SLDR on, or whether a 5.5 frequency is better than 5.6. Golf shops would have to tighten their belts I suppose, but the we could give our extra dough to the First Tee people and not Taylor Made. (He said grumpily, oh brother, maybe I am getting old)

[NRJyzr]

I can generally live with loft creep, as long as it's done properly. Such as it can be done properly. It's when they make the PW 45° but keep the 3 iron at 20°/21°, squeezing the loft gaps to 3° in the long irons, that I really dislike the stronger lofts.

At least TaylorMade gave their 3 iron 18° of loft, and generally sell their newer sets as 4-GW. I don't like the gaps in the set overall, but it's better than the 20/23/26/29/32/36/40/45 that I've seen on some sets.

I've taken my MS-11s and my Ram TG-898s and made them both 21° 3 iron, which is standard on both, and 4° from there to a 49° PW, which is not standard on both. Nice even gaps all the way through. Been adding an 18° club on top of that, sometimes it will have a "2" stamped on the sole, sometimes a "1" stamped on the sole.

Doesn't matter to me what number is stamped on the club I hit from 150.

[KevCarter]

[quote name='HoldenCornfield' timestamp='1396099280' post='8974059']
I like that idea as well. It's one of the reasons I'm looking for an older (50's-60's) set at present -- to put it to the test. I'm a little hesitant to lop off my still-original Hogans at the moment. My 67's are a 1/2 inch longer and the 78's 1 full inch longer. Of course, my 2005's are a 1/2 longer again than the 78's. And If I still had modern graphite shafted irons they'd grow another 1/2 inch, being a full 2 inches longer than the 50's/60's standards.

...
[/quote]

Wow, I didn't quote the entire thing, but what a wonderful post. I really enjoyed the read. I haven't seen you around much, but I will certainly be watching for your screen name. Thank you for taking the time!

Kevin

[birly-shirly]

[quote name='NRJyzr' timestamp='1396107847' post='8974645']
I can generally live with loft creep, as long as it's done properly. Such as it can be done properly. It's when they make the PW 45° but keep the 3 iron at 20°/21°, squeezing the loft gaps to 3° in the long irons, that I really dislike the stronger lofts.

At least TaylorMade gave their 3 iron 18° of loft, and generally sell their newer sets as 4-GW. I don't like the gaps in the set overall, but it's better than the 20/23/26/29/32/36/40/45 that I've seen on some sets.

I've taken my MS-11s and my Ram TG-898s and made them both 21° 3 iron, which is standard on both, and 4° from there to a 49° PW, which is not standard on both. Nice even gaps all the way through. Been adding an 18° club on top of that, sometimes it will have a "2" stamped on the sole, sometimes a "1" stamped on the sole.

Doesn't matter to me what number is stamped on the club I hit from 150.
[/quote]

I agree. The trick is though, in my opinion at least, to find a set of irons where you can set up that loft progression and still have a well matched set of clubs without hybrids and utility wedges stuck on either end.

I like vintage set-ups, precisely because you can have a reasonably user-friendly 2 iron at 18* or 19* all the way through to a pitching wedge at 50 or 52*, and you then have a playable set that is well-matched all the way through and good for almost all the shots you need to hit, barring drives and bunker shots. With an iron set like that, I very rarely hit SW except from sand and I don't carry a hybrid.

Sure, you could possibly customise hybrid and wedges to match the shafts, lengths, lies, weights and balance of the rest of your set - but most people don't. I'm quite happy to let the manufacturer do the hard work of creating a matched set.

One thing to bear in mind though is that 3* spacings in the long irons go back quite far - and I think is more than just the consequence of loft creep in the short irons. Mizunos back in the 80s had 3* gaps in the long irons, stretching to 4* gaps from the 5 iron down, and then a 5* gap from 9 to PW. Hogans traditionally ran a 3.5* gap in the long irons, becoming 4* from the 7 iron down and a 5* or even larger gap between the 9 and wedge.

It would be interesting to go through a trackman type fitting and see what sort of yardage gaps result from even 4* spacings. On the other hand, I feel it's not too awful having the larger loft gaps (up to 5*) in the short irons, where it's not quite so challenging to vary and control your yardage with your swing. I think there may also be a perception that, with 4* gaps from a 50* or more lofted PW, your 6, 7 and 8 irons are going to fly really high. I moved one set of irons back to factory specs for just that reason.

[NRJyzr]

[quote name='birly-shirly' timestamp='1396129390' post='8976513']
One thing to bear in mind though is that 3* spacings in the long irons go back quite far - and I think is more than just the consequence of loft creep in the short irons. Mizunos back in the 80s had 3* gaps in the long irons, stretching to 4* gaps from the 5 iron down, and then a 5* gap from 9 to PW. Hogans traditionally ran a 3.5* gap in the long irons, becoming 4* from the 7 iron down and a 5* or even larger gap between the 9 and wedge.[/quote]

If you go back far enough, everything had 4° gaps. As Holden mentioned, 4° loft slope from a 20° 2 iron to a 52° wedge. Go farther back and it's a 20° 1 iron to a 52° 9 iron. When they started squeezing the short irons stronger somewhere in the 60s (or even the 50s), the 3° gaps started showing up.

They're purely a product of loft creep.

[quote] I think there may also be a [b]perception [/b]that, with 4* gaps from a 50* or more lofted PW, your 6, 7 and 8 irons are going to fly really high. I moved one set of irons back to factory specs for just that reason.
[/quote]

I bolded the key word above. Your 34° 6 iron will fly higher than your 30° 6 iron. But, it's probably flying the same trajectory as your 34° 7 iron (unless you have drastically different makeup to the sets compared).

Instead of thinking of the number on the club, think of the loft you're using.

[birly-shirly]

[quote name='NRJyzr' timestamp='1396148814' post='8978281']

If you go back far enough, everything had 4° gaps. As Holden mentioned, 4° loft slope from a 20° 2 iron to a 52° wedge. Go farther back and it's a 20° 1 iron to a 52° 9 iron. When they started squeezing the short irons stronger somewhere in the 60s (or even the 50s), the 3° gaps started showing up.

They're purely a product of loft creep.

[/quote]

Hmm. I dunno that it's quite that simple. For one thing, if you go that far back, I'm not sure you find any standards at all - 4* gaps or otherwise. People on here have asked Charley Penna what the vintage MacGregor loft specs were, and I'm pretty sure there was nothing published.

Also, both the Mizuno and Hogan set-ups I mentioned [b][i]could[/i][/b] have gone with a more even spacing between the 2 iron and wedges, but they didn't. Some of those Hogan sets had 51.5* Equalizers - but they still went with larger gaps in the short irons and smaller gaps in the long irons. A stronger PW clearly isn't the explanation for the squeezed gaps in that set. You could always make an argument that what really happened was loft creep in the 7 iron, causing compressed lofts in the longer clubs and extended gaps to the wedges - but that would be speculation...

In a way, the real question isn't about standards. 4* gaps is what I learnt years ago. The more important question is whether progressive rather than constant gaps have some playing advantages. I know Tom Wishon has written that he thinks the opposite - that larger loft gaps between long irons and smaller gaps at the short end of the set would produce a more even spread of yardages. But pro players who have all the advantages of high clubhead speed, ballstriking talent, custom fitting and latterly, radar analysis, don't necessarily agree. Jody Vasquez says that Hogan's personal specs had 3* gaps in the long irons and a 6* gap PW to SW. Tiger's published iron specs do something similar. Maybe those 2 knew something...

[NRJyzr]

[quote name='birly-shirly' timestamp='1396187215' post='8979643']
[quote name='NRJyzr' timestamp='1396148814' post='8978281']
If you go back far enough, everything had 4° gaps. As Holden mentioned, 4° loft slope from a 20° 2 iron to a 52° wedge. Go farther back and it's a 20° 1 iron to a 52° 9 iron. When they started squeezing the short irons stronger somewhere in the 60s (or even the 50s), the 3° gaps started showing up.

They're purely a product of loft creep.

[/quote]

Hmm. I dunno that it's quite that simple. For one thing, if you go that far back, I'm not sure you find any standards at all - 4* gaps or otherwise. People on here have asked Charley Penna what the vintage MacGregor loft specs were, and I'm pretty sure there was nothing published.

Also, both the Mizuno and Hogan set-ups I mentioned [b][i]could[/i][/b] have gone with a more even spacing between the 2 iron and wedges, but they didn't. Some of those Hogan sets had 51.5* Equalizers - but they still went with larger gaps in the short irons and smaller gaps in the long irons. A stronger PW clearly isn't the explanation for the squeezed gaps in that set. You could always make an argument that what really happened was loft creep in the 7 iron, causing compressed lofts in the longer clubs and extended gaps to the wedges - but that would be speculation...

In a way, the real question isn't about standards. 4* gaps is what I learnt years ago. The more important question is whether progressive rather than constant gaps have some playing advantages. I know Tom Wishon has written that he thinks the opposite - that larger loft gaps between long irons and smaller gaps at the short end of the set would produce a more even spread of yardages. But pro players who have all the advantages of high clubhead speed, ballstriking talent, custom fitting and latterly, radar analysis, don't necessarily agree. Jody Vasquez says that Hogan's personal specs had 3* gaps in the long irons and a 6* gap PW to SW. Tiger's published iron specs do something similar. Maybe those 2 knew something...
[/quote]

It may not have been the PW itself, but squeezing the long iron gaps came from stronger lofts somewhere in the set.

I used to have a set of Powerbilt Scotch Blades, the 2276 model from 1976-77. I got the lofts from Powerbilt, they were interesting; 20/24/28/32/35/38/41/44/50 for 2-PW. Compression, but in a different place. LOL And an ugly gap between 9 and PW.

There really never have been any standards. Many focus on the 50° PW and 30° 5 iron as a standard, but it's a perspective borne of age and era. The youngsters here at GolfWRX think of 48° PW as weak and 46° as being a standard PW; the only thing that might be 50° is their gap wedge.

[birly-shirly]

I agree. Call me old-fashioned, but the one thing I hold fast on is that I think a PW should be useful for hitting pitch shots. I think much less than 50* is too little for hitting soft landing pitch shots from short range.

The other thing to consider is the ballflight you want through the bag. I'm making no great claims for myself, but what you tend to hear from good players is that they look to flight the ball lower with their short irons, and they want to hit their long irons high so that they have a chance of holding the green. Put that together and you'll get the sort of loft gaps that Hogan and Tiger had - relatively larger gaps in the shorter clubs to help keep the ball down, since there's going to be plenty of backspin anyway and you might as well stay out of the wind, and then minimal delofting in the longer irons, where the ballstriking challenge is in getting the ball up in the air to maximise carry, and then stop the ball quickly when it lands.

I agree that the process can obviously be carried too far - and I can't see 43* or 45* wedges benefiting anybody. On the other hand, I think some of the wilder critics of loft creep and uneven loft gaps (not you, obviously!) go a little too far in their conspiracy theories.

[Soloman1]

Here's something from Jack's match against Sam Snead on Shell's Wonderful World of Golf in 1963:

The par 3, 5th hole at Pebble Beach is downhill and was 160 yards then. Sam Snead hit 4-iron pin high, but it rolled off the back. There was little wind that day.

"Nicklaus with his [i]tremendous[/i] power went to his 6-iron, but it just wasn't enough and it landed just over the first trap and caught in the frog hair."

Sorry for the off-topic distraction, but this is how I remember golf.

[Kirasdad]

Yes, Birly, I completely agree about the PW. In the sets of irons I've had over the years (and there have been a few, believe me) the ones that I have been the most comfortable with have been the ones with a 50ish degree pitching wedge. Even a 47/48 wedge seemed more like a 10 iron rather than an actual scoring club. The set that I have used by far the longest, the original eye two, had a 50.7 degree PW. You could do a lot of things with that club.

[xgolfx]

For what it is worth, let me bridge the gap of years

The old Scotsmen ,like Armour, had this test if you thought you were a player. Hit EACH AND EVERY club in your bag 100 yards. If you were really good, you could also fade and draw each club while flying it 100 yards. Also, the players like Snead, Nelson, and Hogan learned to play before Sarazen came up with a sand wedge. If you wish to replicate that skill , take your 8 iron and play green side bunker shots with the green 4 feet over your head.

Players like Snead, Bolt, Boros, would have the honor and hit a 3 iron on a 160 yard hole. Then the confused rookie would hit a shot over the green almost every time. Players of that era could take a 4 wood and hit it dead straight into a wind 150 yards . They could also hit a "quail high" 200 yard shot if necessary.

When you discuss loft, lie, length, bounce, etc, it all comes down to skill. If you can't putt, stay home.

As in all sports, today's tour player is bigger and stronger
It will never happen, but I would like to see a 3 round tour event played as follows

First round current clubs
Second round. Persimmon era woods and irons
Third round. Wood shaft clubs. ONLY

CHARLEY PENNA

[birly-shirly]

[quote name='Soloman1' timestamp='1396192580' post='8980043']
Here's something from Jack's match against Sam Snead on Shell's Wonderful World of Golf in 1963:

The par 3, 5th hole at Pebble Beach is downhill and was 160 yards then. Sam Snead hit 4-iron pin high, but it rolled off the back. There was little wind that day.

"Nicklaus with his [i]tremendous[/i] power went to his 6-iron, but it just wasn't enough and it landed just over the first trap and caught in the frog hair."

Sorry for the off-topic distraction, but this is how I remember golf.
[/quote]

Within reason, I don't care that strongly whether a 5 iron goes 150 yards or 200 yards. What I like about that example though is that both players had to hit clubs were there was a challenge in hitting and holding the green. 1 ran long, 1 came up just short. I don't believe you see the same degree of challenge when the field is hitting 7 and 8 irons.

[tembolo1284]

[quote name='kevcarter' timestamp='1396108454' post='8974691']
[quote name='HoldenCornfield' timestamp='1396099280' post='8974059']
I like that idea as well. It's one of the reasons I'm looking for an older (50's-60's) set at present -- to put it to the test. I'm a little hesitant to lop off my still-original Hogans at the moment. My 67's are a 1/2 inch longer and the 78's 1 full inch longer. Of course, my 2005's are a 1/2 longer again than the 78's. And If I still had modern graphite shafted irons they'd grow another 1/2 inch, being a full 2 inches longer than the 50's/60's standards.

...
[/quote]

Wow, I didn't quote the entire thing, but what a wonderful post. I really enjoyed the read. I haven't seen you around much, but I will certainly be watching for your screen name. Thank you for taking the time!

Kevin
[/quote]

and to think taller people play 1-2 inches longer than modern standard! Basically their 9 iron is like my 3 iron just weaker lofted yikes!

[tembolo1284]

Can we try and fill out this table?

[attachment=2154781:nicklausSpecs.JPG]

[astamm8]

This information isn't totally static for his whole career, specifically the models.

In '86 his wedges were 52* and 58*. Wood shafts were DG Dynamic s500, irons s400 hardstepped 1x, and wedges were r (probably 400). But in '86 his driver was 43.5" and D6.5". Lies were 1 up for irons and 1 flat for wedges, but I don't know what they're calling standard. The iron model in '86 was a prototype of the pro 81 forging that was later made into the Muirfield 20ths. The putter was the oversized Clay Long Macgregor. The driver was the 945W and a 693 3 wood.

Earlier he played a 43" driver and 56* wedge, but I don't know when he changed. He also previous to these specs played more upright wedges.

For iron models '80-'83' or so he played a different set of prototype irons made from the pro 81 forging. '83 to '85' he switched to a prototype made from the pro 82 forging (which became the original Muirfield). As noted above in '86 he switched to a different prototype made from the pro 81, which would have been very, very similar to the irons used '80-'83.

Grips were probably always 10.5" round leather wraps, 1/32 oversized.

Where is the D7 for his 1 iron coming from?

[astamm8]

A quote I just saw, really surprised me. Maybe it shouldn't have, but I never heard it or say it.

[color=#3B3A38]No other player hit more memorable shots with a 1-iron than Nicklaus, a club that featured in three of his majors – the 1972 U.S. Open at Pebble Beach, the 1975 Masters and the 1967 U.S. Open at Baltusrol. [/color]

[color=#3B3A38]But there were times when he benched the 1-iron. [/color]

[color=#3B3A38]"I used to even go to Augusta when I carried a 1-iron a lot, and sometimes I'd put in maybe a 4- or 5-wood, simply because you needed some elevation to stop it on the greens and some of the lies you played," Nicklaus said. [/color]

[tembolo1284]

[quote name='astamm8' timestamp='1396467182' post='9004971']
This information isn't totally static for his whole career, specifically the models.

In '86 his wedges were 52* and 58*. Wood shafts were DG Dynamic s500, irons s400 hardstepped 1x, and wedges were r (probably 400). But in '86 his driver was 43.5" and D6.5". Lies were 1 up for irons and 1 flat for wedges, but I don't know what they're calling standard. The iron model in '86 was a prototype of the pro 81 forging that was later made into the Muirfield 20ths. The putter was the oversized Clay Long Macgregor. The driver the 945W and 693 3 wood.

Earlier he played a 43" driver and 56* wedge, but I don't know when he changed. He also previous to these specs played more upright wedges.

For iron models '80-'83' or so he played a different set of prototype irons made from the pro 81 forging. '83 to '85' he switched to a prototype made from the pro 82 forging (which became the original Muirfield). As noted above in '86 he switched to a different prototype made from the pro 81, which would have been very, very similar to the irons used '80-'83.

Grips were probably always 10.5" round leather wraps, 1/32 oversized.

Where is the D7 for his 1 iron coming from?
[/quote]

D7 just left it in there from my specs. Oops.

Problem are his lie angles ya....

[golfdude300]

The table looks great Tembolo! The empty boxes could use some icing though!

[Texsport]

[quote name='tembolo1284' timestamp='1397654566' post='9103253']
Great stuff Texsport. Any other stories about Sammy would be great!
[/quote]

I had Mr Nicklaus' 1-iron measured.

It was set to these specs by Jack's club man, Jack W..

Length. 39"
Lie. 60*
Loft. 15*
Swing Weight D-4

Texsport

[KevCarter]

[quote name='Texsport' timestamp='1397676518' post='9105839']
I had Mr Nicklaus' 1-iron measured.

It was set to these specs by Jack's club man, Jack Wolkotti.

Length. 39"
Lie. 60*
Loft. 15*
Swing Weight D-4

Texsport
[/quote]

Holy smokes, a 15 degree blade. I would venture to guess, not many professionals could make that work with today's golf balls...

[tembolo1284]

That's insane! Also quite upright

[Cwebb]

[quote name='Texsport' timestamp='1397676518' post='9105839']
[quote name='tembolo1284' timestamp='1397654566' post='9103253']
Great stuff Texsport. Any other stories about Sammy would be great!
[/quote]

I had Mr Nicklaus' 1-iron measured.

It was set to these specs by Jack's club man, Jack W..

Length. 39"
Lie. 60*
Loft. 15*
Swing Weight D-4

Texsport
[/quote]

Wow. Relative to the designs and specs of that era, he was really using a ZERO iron

[Cwebb]

[quote name='Texsport' timestamp='1397676518' post='9105839']

[/quote]

Do you happen to know what the length of his most lofted wedge was?

[astamm8]

[quote name='Cwebb' timestamp='1398356413' post='9160799']
[quote name='Texsport' timestamp='1397676518' post='9105839']
[/quote]

Do you happen to know what the length of his most lofted wedge was?
[/quote]

35"

[tembolo1284]

[quote name='Texsport' timestamp='1397676518' post='9105839']
[quote name='tembolo1284' timestamp='1397654566' post='9103253']
Great stuff Texsport. Any other stories about Sammy would be great!
[/quote]

I had Mr Nicklaus' 1-iron measured.

It was set to these specs by Jack's club man, Jack W..

Length. 39"
Lie. 60*
Loft. 15*
Swing Weight D-4

Texsport
[/quote]

This D4 swingweight is after he got it counterweighted right? I heard he used to put coins and such in the grips. That means it's pretty damn heavy.
Jack's a beast!