Golf is dying: "lost 5 million players in the last decade... another 5 million will quit in the next

[natedd]

[quote name='crkranz' timestamp='1407767436' post='9908495']
[quote name='natedd' timestamp='1407548122' post='9892305']
Watching your kid (6 or 10 yrs old) play 60 youth basketball games isn't necessarily spending time with your family.

I agree with the guy who said your time deficit is a choice.
[/quote]

It is a choice, no doubt. If your kids want to play at a high level they get left behind if they aren't doing it.

[/quote]

My brother didn't play one minute of travel/all-star baseball. Only freshman to play varsity at a top tier HS program and had scholarship offers to play in college.

Not the only case I can name either.

[natedd]

[quote name='Startzel' timestamp='1407770645' post='9908927']
[quote name='crkranz' timestamp='1407767436' post='9908495']
[quote name='natedd' timestamp='1407548122' post='9892305']
Watching your kid (6 or 10 yrs old) play 60 youth basketball games isn't necessarily spending time with your family.

I agree with the guy who said your time deficit is a choice.
[/quote]

It is a choice, no doubt. If your kids want to play at a high level they get left behind if they aren't doing it.

[quote name='ratspros' timestamp='1407680764' post='9900785']
Why don't you get your kids to drop one of the other sports and get them into golf. Both are old enough to play par three courses. Playing golf WITH your kids has to be funner then watching them play something else doesn't it?
[/quote]

We are dropping travel baseball, but he wants to do what his friends are doing and has no interest in golf. There is hope for the younger one though. I would much rather spend time doing what they want to do than forcing them to do what I want to do.
[/quote]

This is the sad thing about American sports. The parents have to invest more into training a kid than they would get back even in the unlikely chance the child receive a full scholarship in college.

Back home in the UK, if your child has talent the football clubs will get them in their academies at a young age and give them access to the best coaching.
[/quote]

The crazy thing is most of the over the top travel sports (baseball, soccer, volleyball) in the US don't offer that many full scholarships at the university level.

[farmer]

[quote name='natedd' timestamp='1407770888' post='9908961']
[quote name='Startzel' timestamp='1407770645' post='9908927']
[quote name='crkranz' timestamp='1407767436' post='9908495']
[quote name='natedd' timestamp='1407548122' post='9892305']
Watching your kid (6 or 10 yrs old) play 60 youth basketball games isn't necessarily spending time with your family.

I agree with the guy who said your time deficit is a choice.
[/quote]

It is a choice, no doubt. If your kids want to play at a high level they get left behind if they aren't doing it.

[quote name='ratspros' timestamp='1407680764' post='9900785']
Why don't you get your kids to drop one of the other sports and get them into golf. Both are old enough to play par three courses. Playing golf WITH your kids has to be funner then watching them play something else doesn't it?
[/quote]

We are dropping travel baseball, but he wants to do what his friends are doing and has no interest in golf. There is hope for the younger one though. I would much rather spend time doing what they want to do than forcing them to do what I want to do.
[/quote]

This is the sad thing about American sports. The parents have to invest more into training a kid than they would get back even in the unlikely chance the child receive a full scholarship in college.

Back home in the UK, if your child has talent the football clubs will get them in their academies at a young age and give them access to the best coaching.
[/quote]

The crazy thing is most of the over the top travel sports (baseball, soccer, volleyball) in the US don't offer that many full scholarships at the university level.
[/quote]The crazy thing to me is that this kid is playing 60 games, plus practice and school. The NBA regular season is 82 games, and these are grown men playing for a living.

[jewofgolf]

I know for me at least with golf during high school, I just practiced my behind off and played during the season. In the summer I played 1-2 state events and 5-6 local PGA section junior events. I think the grand total out of pocket expenses on fees for an entire year was $300 back in 2000-2004.

I expect it to be no different for my own kids. If they want to play sports, they will work their butts off on their own/with my help if they ask/with some lessons or coaching occasionally. When the high school season comes they can participate there and limited outside events during the summer.

Playing a gazillion events all over the place doesn't make you better at that sport. Yes the time you spend makes you better, but kids don't need to be learning how to deal with all that traveling stress. They need to work on fundamentals, IMO.

So, I still have my golf time and some additional time spent practicing [b]with[/b] my kids, instead of watching them. I also have money left over to play!

[ctmason_98]

Full disclosure -- I'm the parent of a toddler and have many, many friends with children under the age of 15...

To be fair to parents, there is the pressure that kids place on their parents wanting to be involved in these types of sports and other activities because their friends are doing so. Peer pressure is a wonderful thing -- for someone trying to make money off of kids.

I absolutely concur it is up to the parent to make the hard decision not to "over schedule" their children. And more and more in the past ten years there has been research on the negative effects for children's social development through "over scheduling."

[Bad9]

[quote name='ctmason_98' timestamp='1407786815' post='9911395']
Full disclosure -- I'm the parent of a toddler and have many, many friends with children under the age of 15...

To be fair to parents, there is the pressure that kids place on their parents wanting to be involved in these types of sports and other activities because their friends are doing so. Peer pressure is a wonderful thing -- for someone trying to make money off of kids.

I absolutely concur it is up to the parent to make the hard decision not to "over schedule" their children. And more and more in the past ten years there has been research on the negative effects for children's social development through "over scheduling."
[/quote]

Parents have to remember the word "no" sometimes

[jewofgolf]

[quote name='Bad9' timestamp='1407803347' post='9913237']
[quote name='ctmason_98' timestamp='1407786815' post='9911395']
Full disclosure -- I'm the parent of a toddler and have many, many friends with children under the age of 15...

To be fair to parents, there is the pressure that kids place on their parents wanting to be involved in these types of sports and other activities because their friends are doing so. Peer pressure is a wonderful thing -- for someone trying to make money off of kids.

I absolutely concur it is up to the parent to make the hard decision not to "over schedule" their children. And more and more in the past ten years there has been research on the negative effects for children's social development through "over scheduling."
[/quote]

Parents have to remember the word "no" sometimes
[/quote]

Mine sure did!

[Auditor_Kevin]

Not allowed because of spam is reporting on Twitter tonight that adidas Group is cuttin 15% of their golf workforce and shutting down Adams golf HQ and moving them to Carlsbad.

TaylorMade's VP of golf ball R&D is among the casualties.

Those of you who continue to root for the demise of our beloved sport so you can save a few bucks - keep on fiddlin' while the rest of us try to put out the flames.

[playa]

[quote name='golfman1023' timestamp='1406466545' post='9794345']
[quote name='Pepperturbo' timestamp='1406397157' post='9790577']
[quote name='golfman1023' timestamp='1406389612' post='9790025']
As a new adult, I think the biggest problem in golf is the lack of availible reasonable priced memberships for kids and young adults. The closest course to me is Compass Pointe, an "upscale" muni that was built about 10 years ago, featuring hundreds of million dollar homes on it. It's the only golf course within 30 minutes of the 50,000 people who live south of Baltimore, MD. It's kind of a dead zone. Too far south to enjoy the Baltimore City and County munis, too far east to enjoy the Howard county ones, and too far north to enjoy the PG county courses. We basically have no choices in where we play, unless we travel. That being said, rounds at compass pointe, even on a weekday, are something like $60. This isn't a great course. The greens aren't fast and true, there's tons of dead patches and crabgrass. The course is impossible to walk due to its construction between the neighborhood streets, etc. Anyhow, membership there is $2000 for county residents. And that doesn't include cart, which costs $10 per ride. That means if you play twilight, like i do, you'd have to play 101 rounds to be getting a value ($3030 vs. $3010). Way too expensive. Why not make it half as expensive. I'd bet they'd see their memberships more than double. I have so many friends in the 16-20 age bracket that would love to golf more than once a week, but it's just too much money.
[/quote]

I'd like to agree with your half rate wish, but membership growth, whether public or private course, can not exist by lowering rates. A nineteen year old should pay what I pay to play. Typically, public courses that offer memberships to residents, do so as a local community service. I hold two public club memberships at notable courses. Its surprising how few people actually buy them. Recently, one SoCA course that offered, what they felt were reasonable membership rates and accommodations, finally kicked club members out. Members thought their revenue stream to the club was sufficient enough to make demands and effect changes. In actuality, managing that membership was more of headache than profitable.

Here in CA and AZ, even TX, the courses I've seen want tournaments, corporate outings, private events like weddings, etc., that's where they make money; course tee times at near or at rack for people from outside city limits helps. It takes a lot of money to maintain even the basic municipal course, moreover keep it in black ink.
[/quote]

The thing is, around where I live, these courses aren't notable. They're owned by the county, and supposed to be a recreation service provided in part by the taxpayers. The reason golf is dying is because young people don't play. Having 1000 members at $1000 a year is better for a course than having 499 members at $2000 a year. You have to realize too that a 19 year old has much less means to pay than an adult. It's not unfair or anything else, it's just the way it is. Same reason there are senior rates. Up until this year, the course had an offer where any person 17 or younger was free with a paying adult, or $15 by themselves after 3pm on weekdays. Any other times there was a junior rate. There are senior memberships, so why not junior ones too? It's not like these courses are filled. There are more tee times than they know what to do with, so they try to gouge out the most they can. Soccer, basketball, football are all incredibly popular because all it takes is a ball and a pair of cleats. If golf wants to grow or survive or sustain, courses need to stop acting like golfers owe them something. I just checked my local course's website. There are over 20 tee times available for TODAY. If those go unfilled (which they do), they make no money. If the prices were reasonable, those times would be filled, and they would make money. Golf courses put out all the money on the front end and hope to make it back later on greens fees. If there are unfilled tee times at the end of the day, that is money down the drain for the course. Big sticker prices don't mean squat when the players aren't coming
[/quote]
In Aus dues for juniors are way less than for full members. Juniors pay as little as $200-$400 for membershib at clubs where full membership is in the $1500 to $2000 range. Junior rates also go to 25yo here so golf is very affordable for young guys. Ibthink part of the reason is so good young players can bolster the pennants teams.

[MountainKing]

Personally I wouldn't mind another 5 million leaving the game. It's probably less damaging overall since I live in the Chicago area, but I honestly cannot take anymore 5+ hour rounds. I've tried all different times this year and unless I take a day off and play on a Monday morning I can't really seem to find a good time to go out anymore to get in a quick round since these courses are so overloaded. I'm really looking forward to some fall golf this year and more empty courses.

[marmooskapaul]

[quote name='Auditor_Kevin' timestamp='1407903730' post='9922277']
Not allowed because of spam is reporting on Twitter tonight that adidas Group is cuttin 15% of their golf workforce and shutting down Adams golf HQ and moving them to Carlsbad.

TaylorMade's VP of golf ball R&D is among the casualties.

Those of you who continue to root for the demise of our beloved sport so you can save a few bucks - keep on fiddlin' while the rest of us try to put out the flames.
[/quote]

TM demise is not the demise of golf. TM got greedy and tried to capitalize when the "gettin was good" and now must pay the piper. Nothing wrong with that, but it must correct itself sometime. Golfer's came to their senses about all the new clubs being put out multiple times a year...with new/improved claims of distance/forgiveness....what did they think was going to happen??
Paul

[Argonne69]

[quote name='MountainKing' timestamp='1407932436' post='9923227']
Personally I wouldn't mind another 5 million leaving the game. It's probably less damaging overall since I live in the Chicago area, but I honestly cannot take anymore 5+ hour rounds. I've tried all different times this year and unless I take a day off and play on a Monday morning I can't really seem to find a good time to go out anymore to get in a quick round since these courses are so overloaded. I'm really looking forward to some fall golf this year and more empty courses.
[/quote]

I agree to a point. However, I don't think many of the courses are overloaded. Rather, the staff, fearing that enforcing pace of play will scare away the slow players, are allowing slow play. Of course, the result is that players like ourselves that don't appreciate 5 hour slogs don't come back.

[Argonne69]

[quote name='Auditor_Kevin' timestamp='1407903730' post='9922277']
Not allowed because of spam is reporting on Twitter tonight that adidas Group is cuttin 15% of their golf workforce and shutting down Adams golf HQ and moving them to Carlsbad.

TaylorMade's VP of golf ball R&D is among the casualties.

Those of you who continue to root for the demise of our beloved sport so you can save a few bucks - keep on fiddlin' while the rest of us try to put out the flames.
[/quote]

Consolidating staff in one location when one company buys another is more or less standard business practice. Nothing to see here. Move along.

TM is ranked where in golf ball sales? 72? No surprise they're cutting costs in an area where they've barely made a dent.

[MountainKing]

[quote name='Argonne69' timestamp='1407938081' post='9923727']
[quote name='MountainKing' timestamp='1407932436' post='9923227']
Personally I wouldn't mind another 5 million leaving the game. It's probably less damaging overall since I live in the Chicago area, but I honestly cannot take anymore 5+ hour rounds. I've tried all different times this year and unless I take a day off and play on a Monday morning I can't really seem to find a good time to go out anymore to get in a quick round since these courses are so overloaded. I'm really looking forward to some fall golf this year and more empty courses.
[/quote]

I agree to a point. However, I don't think many of the courses are overloaded. Rather, the staff, fearing that enforcing pace of play will scare away the slow players, are allowing slow play. Of course, the result is that players like ourselves that don't appreciate 5 hour slogs don't come back.
[/quote]

Probably true, although if there were some more empty slots during the course of a day it would add a bit of relief to the slow play. If you had places to throw groups the rangers could encourage a slow group to let a group behind to play through. I dunno, I hate the fact that if I want to play at a decent pace I have to go out on a day like yesterday with not great weather or play really late on a weekend afternoon. If I had the coin I'd join a country club in a heart beat, seems most of the clubs around here I get to play you can cruise through in under 4 hours even on a weekend which is amazing..but I'm just a middle class guy who has the slum it!

[Argonne69]

[quote name='MountainKing' timestamp='1407938485' post='9923777']
[quote name='Argonne69' timestamp='1407938081' post='9923727']
[quote name='MountainKing' timestamp='1407932436' post='9923227']
Personally I wouldn't mind another 5 million leaving the game. It's probably less damaging overall since I live in the Chicago area, but I honestly cannot take anymore 5+ hour rounds. I've tried all different times this year and unless I take a day off and play on a Monday morning I can't really seem to find a good time to go out anymore to get in a quick round since these courses are so overloaded. I'm really looking forward to some fall golf this year and more empty courses.
[/quote]

I agree to a point. However, I don't think many of the courses are overloaded. Rather, the staff, fearing that enforcing pace of play will scare away the slow players, are allowing slow play. Of course, the result is that players like ourselves that don't appreciate 5 hour slogs don't come back.
[/quote]

Probably true, although if there were some more empty slots during the course of a day it would add a bit of relief to the slow play. If you had places to throw groups the rangers could encourage a slow group to let a group behind to play through. I dunno, I hate the fact that if I want to play at a decent pace I have to go out on a day like yesterday with not great weather or play really late on a weekend afternoon. If I had the coin I'd join a country club in a heart beat, seems most of the clubs around here I get to play you can cruise through in under 4 hours even on a weekend which is amazing..but I'm just a middle class guy who has the slum it!
[/quote]

MK, you should check out Wilmette GC. They just reopened after a 1 year rennovation, and the biggest surprise is that they moved to 12 minute tee times. That's almost unheard of for a muni. I teed off at 10:50 am on a Sunday, and we didn't run into the group in front of us until the 4th hole. We finished the round in just over 4 hours. WGC has always had a decent pace on the weekends.

I would have no problem if more courses raised their rates while moving to 11 or 12 minute tee times.

[MountainKing]

[quote name='Argonne69' timestamp='1407939422' post='9923869']
[quote name='MountainKing' timestamp='1407938485' post='9923777']
[quote name='Argonne69' timestamp='1407938081' post='9923727']
[quote name='MountainKing' timestamp='1407932436' post='9923227']
Personally I wouldn't mind another 5 million leaving the game. It's probably less damaging overall since I live in the Chicago area, but I honestly cannot take anymore 5+ hour rounds. I've tried all different times this year and unless I take a day off and play on a Monday morning I can't really seem to find a good time to go out anymore to get in a quick round since these courses are so overloaded. I'm really looking forward to some fall golf this year and more empty courses.
[/quote]

I agree to a point. However, I don't think many of the courses are overloaded. Rather, the staff, fearing that enforcing pace of play will scare away the slow players, are allowing slow play. Of course, the result is that players like ourselves that don't appreciate 5 hour slogs don't come back.
[/quote]

Probably true, although if there were some more empty slots during the course of a day it would add a bit of relief to the slow play. If you had places to throw groups the rangers could encourage a slow group to let a group behind to play through. I dunno, I hate the fact that if I want to play at a decent pace I have to go out on a day like yesterday with not great weather or play really late on a weekend afternoon. If I had the coin I'd join a country club in a heart beat, seems most of the clubs around here I get to play you can cruise through in under 4 hours even on a weekend which is amazing..but I'm just a middle class guy who has the slum it!
[/quote]

MK, you should check out Wilmette GC. They just reopened after a 1 year rennovation, and the biggest surprise is that they moved to 12 minute tee times. That's almost unheard of for a muni. I teed off at 10:50 am on a Sunday, and we didn't run into the group in front of us until the 4th hole. We finished the round in just over 4 hours. WGC has always had a decent pace on the weekends.

I would have no problem if more courses raised their rates while moving to 11 or 12 minute tee times.
[/quote]

Might have to go check that out. I've already said I would gladly play more to guarantee a faster round, I'm not even looking for anything ridiculous, I'd be okay with 4:20-4:30. I've noticed a lot of the ritzier courses have even condensed their tee off intervals. Cantigny has even moved back to 10 minute intervals, 2 years ago they were 13 minutes and about 15 years ago they were 15 minutes. Alright enough of my bitching I'm starting to feel like a broken record!

[Argonne69]

[quote name='proguy' timestamp='1407769823' post='9908825']
In 2000 I gave up playing golf for three years. I was tired of waiting all day to play each and every shot. I was waiting on 10 million new ****** bag golfers with there tiger woods head cover. Blah Blah Blah Tiger has done so much for golf. For who? For the pockets of the pros and manufactures but in reality has made playing the game worse for people. Great TV yes, but I am so happy playing golf in the last few years because all the tiger fare weather fans are gone. Ok Rant done.
[/quote]

I hear you, but the problem precedes the Tiger era. I gave up golf in 1983 after a horrendous 6 hour round in 103 degree heat. There were 3 groups at practically every teebox. I didn't pick up the clubs again until 1998.

[mr_divots]

4:45 to play a 6400 yard course yesterday with a half full lot when I pulled in. 12:12 tee time on a Tuesday. No ranger. 5 some in front of us. 4 some in front of them.
It's 84 and sunny today and have no desire to play after that experience yesterday. Golf is killing itself.

[Argonne69]

[quote name='mr_divots' timestamp='1407946342' post='9924741']
4:45 to play a 6400 yard course yesterday with a half full lot when I pulled in. 12:12 tee time on a Tuesday. No ranger. 5 some in front of us. 4 some in front of them.
It's 84 and sunny today and have no desire to play after that experience yesterday. Golf is killing itself.
[/quote]

It's an afront to one's manhood to allow a faster group to play through. 'Lord forbid the 5some allow you to play through.

[marmooskapaul]

Played a short course in Greenfield, IN yesterday and literally 3 of us had the whole course [no one in sight] to ourselves. Except for this kid selling ..found balls for .15 cents apiece...bought 20 of those. It was cool and light rain on and off but great golf weather for August. 2 1/2 or 3 hours ?? can't remember, but it's like this a lot around here during the week.
Paul

[ctmason_98]

[quote name='Auditor_Kevin' timestamp='1407903730' post='9922277']
Not allowed because of spam is reporting on Twitter tonight that adidas Group is cuttin 15% of their golf workforce and shutting down Adams golf HQ and moving them to Carlsbad.

TaylorMade's VP of golf ball R&D is among the casualties.

Those of you who continue to root for the demise of our beloved sport so you can save a few bucks - keep on fiddlin' while the rest of us try to put out the flames.
[/quote]

No doubt there is nothing to celebrate when people lose their jobs. One could say the same for the poor student temp workers who lost their jobs holding cables when College football coaching headsets went wireless.

Truly though, regardless of one's position in the industry, you cannot reasonably expect continued growth and job opportunities, can you? It simply hasn't been sustainable and the writing has been on the wall for far longer than the Tiger Woods era. It's likely been apparent that continued contraction would occur since the mid-80s for those who looked at the data.

I haven't lived in Phoenix as long as others on this board, but its apparent to any literate person that the industry here is -- and has been -- highly susceptible to serious downturns. Take all those courses and stores on the map in the greater Phoenix area and imagine they were all Burger Kings, or all clothing stores. Does it make any sense given the societal trends that all of those businesses are going to survive?

[JWells]

Got off work early today and still can't find the time to play. Because even 9 would take 2 hours, probably more between driving to the course paying in the club house and tee'ing off on 1

[marmooskapaul]

[quote name='JWells' timestamp='1407954066' post='9925661']
Got off work early today and still can't find the time to play. Because even 9 would take 2 hours, probably more between driving to the course paying in the club house and tee'ing off on 1
[/quote]

Where do you live??? It's only 2:30 in Indiana...lol...plenty of time.
Get out there and play till dark.
Paul

[JWells]

Only 2:30 here in VA but I have to meet my parents for dinner out by there place and just can't swing it. If it just didn't quite take as long as it does I could of played. I'll try to get out tomorrow. Reason I posted here is because I truly believe time is the main thing stopping players

[mr_divots]

Yeah, I was going to run a marathon too until I learned it was 4+ hours. Who has the time?

[natedd]

[quote name='marmooskapaul' timestamp='1407951569' post='9925383']
Played a short course in Greenfield, IN yesterday and literally 3 of us had the whole course [no one in sight] to ourselves. Except for this kid selling ..found balls for .15 cents apiece...bought 20 of those. It was cool and light rain on and off but great golf weather for August. 2 1/2 or 3 hours ?? can't remember, but it's like this a lot around here during the week.
Paul
[/quote]

Arrowhead or the executive course?

[Startzel]

[quote name='mr_divots' timestamp='1407946342' post='9924741']
4:45 to play a 6400 yard course yesterday with a half full lot when I pulled in. 12:12 tee time on a Tuesday. No ranger. 5 some in front of us. 4 some in front of them.
It's 84 and sunny today and have no desire to play after that experience yesterday. Golf is killing itself.
[/quote]

So you're going to quit playing golf?

[fore]

[quote name='Startzel' timestamp='1407962739' post='9926703']
[quote name='mr_divots' timestamp='1407946342' post='9924741']
4:45 to play a 6400 yard course yesterday with a half full lot when I pulled in. 12:12 tee time on a Tuesday. No ranger. 5 some in front of us. 4 some in front of them.
It's 84 and sunny today and have no desire to play after that experience yesterday. Golf is killing itself.
[/quote]

So you're going to quit playing golf?
[/quote]

That would be the last straw.

That would make it 5 million and one. ….oh the humanity!

[mr_divots]

[quote name='Startzel' timestamp='1407962739' post='9926703']
[quote name='mr_divots' timestamp='1407946342' post='9924741']
4:45 to play a 6400 yard course yesterday with a half full lot when I pulled in. 12:12 tee time on a Tuesday. No ranger. 5 some in front of us. 4 some in front of them.
It's 84 and sunny today and have no desire to play after that experience yesterday. Golf is killing itself.
[/quote]

So you're going to quit playing golf?
[/quote]
No, but I haven't played nearly as much this year. Just too many experiences like this. I used to dream about being able to get out during the week when I wanted to. Now I can, and I find that its not much different than the weekend. Maybe worse, given they have no one out there directing play.
A half empty course shouldn't take 4:45 to play a round of golf. Week to week, you really don't know if the same course even will be slow or quick. Played the same course, same tee time one week ago and played in 3 hrs walking. Slowly. LOL!

[mr_divots]

[quote name='fore' timestamp='1407963596' post='9926835']
[quote name='Startzel' timestamp='1407962739' post='9926703']
[quote name='mr_divots' timestamp='1407946342' post='9924741']
4:45 to play a 6400 yard course yesterday with a half full lot when I pulled in. 12:12 tee time on a Tuesday. No ranger. 5 some in front of us. 4 some in front of them.
It's 84 and sunny today and have no desire to play after that experience yesterday. Golf is killing itself.
[/quote]

So you're going to quit playing golf?
[/quote]

That would be the last straw.

That would make it 5 million and one. ….oh the humanity!
[/quote]
Mmmm.... I really, really love golf. The industry does not want people like me souring on this game. They've depended very heavily on us core golfers for many years. Golfers like myself start to bow out and your head will spin with all the course closures. So don't be quite so cavalier.