Going From JDM Back to USDM...?

[PepsiDuck]

How do you all feel about going back to USDM equipment after having owned and played with JDM equipment? Do you go back and forth freely, or do you look at USDM equipment as figuratively "inferior" and stick with JDM...?

 

I'm currently gaming a set of Miura CB-202s, my first foray into JDM clubs, and I'm considering putting together a combo set from a single manufacturer's CB/MB offerings. I know there are a lot of quality sets being put out by US companies, but I honestly feel like I'm holding myself back from considering them, and instead only wanting to replace JDM with JDM. I almost feel like any USDM iron set would be a "downgrade" from my current set...

 

What are your thoughts...?

[MyShortGameSucks]

I went JDM with a set of Miura 501s. Liked them a lot and played them for a while. Convinced myself these were the best irons around. One day after a few bad rounds, I hit my old Tileist 712 AP2s against the 501s at the range. Bottom line the AP2s produced just as good results, felt ok and were a little more forgiving. I started playing the AP2s again and they never left the bag. Now have 714s.

In answer to your question - I think a set of forged USDM Mizuno or Titleist irons can hold their own with JDM but you will need to go take them to a good club maker and get the lie/loft/SW checked and fixed. Unfortunately you just cannot expect the same spec tolerances for USDM irons vs JDM.

[Honman]

I've owned Honma and Vega irons in the past, Callaway's, Ping's, Bridgestone's, and now Mizuno's, and I'm sure some other's I've long forgotten! While JDM products are good, I don't think they are inherently better.
From a club building point of view they can be more consistent. I've had some club makers say that Miura's are lowers spin than other forging's, and other club builders saying it's poppy c0ck.
They tend to be better looking simpler designs. My Callaway, Bridgestone, and Mizuno forgings have felt just as good as the JDM irons, if not better. JDM ar built to tight tolerances, are rarer and therefore cooler, and often have simpler looks and look better for it. The craftsmanship that goes into them can be better too. However actual performance is no better.
And a good friend of mine has just switched from Miura 202's to Adams XTD Forged, and he's very happy to have made the switch.
Buy what you like, but from a performance point of view, the JDM product is no better.

[PepsiDuck]

[quote name='Honman' timestamp='1411463089' post='10167513']
They tend to be better looking simpler designs. My Callaway, Bridgestone, and Mizuno forgings have felt just as good as the JDM irons, if not better. JDM ar built to tight tolerances, are rarer and therefore cooler, and often have simpler looks and look better for it. The craftsmanship that goes into them can be better too. However actual performance is no better.
And a good friend of mine has just switched from Miura 202's to Adams XTD Forged, and he's very happy to have made the switch.
Buy what you like, but from a performance point of view, the JDM product is no better.
[/quote]

I think that for me, a lot of it has to do with the "exclusivity" of bagging JDM compared to more popular companies in the US (TM, Titleist, Callaway). I know it's probably silly reason, but there's something about not being just another guy with AP2s in his bag. Even something as "common" in the JDM world as CB-202s is pretty rare to see at any given course on any given day.

But you're probably right that performance wise, the USDM equipment can probably go toe-to-toe with the JDM stuff. Would you say that the technology of the USDM equipment might even [i]surpass[/i] that of the JDM stuff, which focuses on more classic and simple shapes and features? That is, a Miura blade or CB will be just that, a clean and simple blade or CB without tons of technology?

[Honman]

I don't think so. I just think the models that appeal to the rest of the world are the clean blades. I've just hit all of this years Srixon product which is the same as the JDM models. The Z545 is one of the best driver I've hit in ages. Really hot, and forgiving across the whole face. Yet at address it's one of the most classic drivers I've seen in ages. It even has full face scoring lines. Because the looks are so good it's easy to forget how well they perform.

[Honman]

I'd simply suggest playing what you like. Drivers fairways and hybrids I tend to believe tour proven equipment is the best, be that us or jdm, so TM, Callaway, Ping, Adams, Nike, Srixon, TourStage, Royal Collection. Irons wedges and putters, unless you're looking for huge forgiveness or maximum spin, I'd play whatever you like.

[KPH808]

I think USDM equipment is just as good. I had two sets of Miuras in the last 2 years and even though look and felt great I went back to Titleist irons. Still have a set of one of the Miuras in my all JDM bag including wedges, putter, driver, and fwy wood. Currently playing 714 CBs and although they don't feel as good as the Miuras, the performance is there.

[kingarthur]

Don't have any problem with switching back and forth, for me the performance is the same if properly fitted. Had a full JDM bag in 11/12, but back to a full USDM bag since earlier this year.

[MBBG]

I went all JDM, have since bought some USDM stuff just to play around with as well, after Ho'ing JDM for a long time it seems so cheap!

Fit and finish and almost universally the feel is better with JDM. If one can throw these attributes out the window, then they're pretty much even I guess. Recently played some 714AP2 for a while, and while everyone rants about how solid they feel, I felt like I was playing with some rocks on the end of sticks compared to JDM offerings I have or have had. Picked up a set of the 850 Forged Mizunos and have them in the bag now and they're really nice, and some Miura 1957 wedges (56K bent to 55 and 59C bent to 60) and so far I like them as well. So USDM but still Japan forged. I love my Vokey 58K wedge, it's so user friendly, but it will never quite feel like a Miura, Yururi, etc.

I think I will likely stick to all Japanese forged irons and wedges from here on out, have toyed with going back to others but just can't, it really isn't the same, although the Cobra Pro forged stuff feels nice, and some of the Cally forged. Titleist is too firm feeling for me in general. (Go ahead and flame me for claiming to tell a difference in feel) But I do think I will likely stick with USDM woods at least for a while. As someone who is working to improve, I think USDM woods offer more in terms of forgiveness with somewhat lower spin than many JDM drivers and 3 woods. And the adjustability/ease of shaft changes are valuable assets as well, with our changing conditions, and my changing swing.

[mr.haha]

First off i have a hard time calling it USDM. Maybe it should really be called CDM (China) or TDM (Taiwan or Thailand) or PDM (Phillipines). Any way you slice it nothing is manufactured here in the US (the big boys that is).

Second, ive been with proper JDM (I exclude Miura USA from JDM) for 3 years or so and I have ZERO urge to go back to TM, Ping, Cally, Titleist etc...
Also, part of the reason I wont go back is the 3 month product cycle of US clubs

[PepsiDuck]

[quote name='mr.haha' timestamp='1411536897' post='10173479']
Second, ive been with proper JDM (I exclude Miura USA from JDM) for 3 years or so and I have ZERO urge to go back to TM, Ping, Cally, Titleist etc...
Also, part of the reason I wont go back is the 3 month product cycle of US clubs
[/quote]

This is something I hadn't really considered as well...buying US equipment with their product cycles makes the last iteration of clubs seem almost "obsolete" as soon as the newest stuff comes out. However, JDM really doesn't have that quick of a product cycle, and even when new stuff does come out, I still feel like the designs are almost timeless and won't ever be "obsolete." For example, although my CB-202s are a relatively old model, I feel like they are still quite relevant even when compared to the new stuff coming out.

[RogerinNewZealand]

Try 2007 King Cobra Pro MB.
Very nice.
I also had Bridgestone J36 combo irons.
Tried Titleist 710MB and learnt what clicky meant !

With Ping Rapture V1 driver and Bobby Jones putter in my bag,
people know looking at my bag i love my gear !!!

[storm319]

[quote name='mr.haha' timestamp='1411536897' post='10173479']
First off i have a hard time calling it USDM. Maybe it should really be called CDM (China) or TDM (Taiwan or Thailand) or PDM (Phillipines). Any way you slice it nothing is manufactured here in the US (the big boys that is).

Second, ive been with proper JDM (I exclude Miura USA from JDM) for 3 years or so and I have ZERO urge to go back to TM, Ping, Cally, Titleist etc...
Also, part of the reason I wont go back is the 3 month product cycle of US clubs
[/quote]

USDM and JDM have nothing to do with where the product is manufactured or where the company is based. It refers to the market that the product is created for and marketed to. CDM would refer to products that are created to be marketed and sold within China and most of that product tends to be manufactured there as well since China is such a manufacturing juggernaut right now. There is also likely some JDM product that is manufactured outside of Japan as well.

[bpark1210]

USDM vs. JDM is not relevant to me. It's where the clubs are forged, example B'stone, Cally, Nike and few others outsource to ENDO and they produce solid feeling clubs. Aside from a few visual asthetics they are all in the same ballpark in terms of quality, performance, forgiveness, and feel.

Now take those same brands and put a cheaply produced GI club cast in China club in my hands and I will throw it in the garbage.

[IamMarkMac]

[quote name='mr.haha' timestamp='1411536897' post='10173479']
First off i have a hard time calling it USDM. Maybe it should really be called CDM (China) or TDM (Taiwan or Thailand) or PDM (Phillipines). Any way you slice it nothing is manufactured here in the US (the big boys that is).
[/quote]

DM actually means "Domestic Market" which refers to the buying population. It's not a reference to place of manufacture.

[IamMarkMac]

[quote name='PepsiDuck' timestamp='1411452691' post='10167265']
How do you all feel about going back to USDM equipment after having owned and played with JDM equipment? Do you go back and forth freely, or do you look at USDM equipment as figuratively "inferior" and stick with JDM...?

I'm currently gaming a set of Miura CB-202s, my first foray into JDM clubs, and I'm considering putting together a combo set from a single manufacturer's CB/MB offerings. I know there are a lot of quality sets being put out by US companies, but I honestly feel like I'm holding myself back from considering them, and instead only wanting to replace JDM with JDM. I almost feel like any USDM iron set would be a "downgrade" from my current set...

What are your thoughts...?
[/quote]

When traveling I regularly play USDM (it's what is usually lent to me). USDM sets are perfectly fine but I just prefer the feel and aesthetic of JDM. I can't imagine ever going back to buying USDM gear (maybe if I didn't have the money anymore for JDM).

With regard to feeling like you're not considering quality sets from USDM, what sets exactly are these? I'm always hitting USDM clubs at the golf store and I don't feel like I'm biased against US clubs, I just really haven't found anything as good as my current set.

[PepsiDuck]

[quote name='IamMarkMac' timestamp='1411582438' post='10176243']
With regard to feeling like you're not considering quality sets from USDM, what sets exactly are these? I'm always hitting USDM clubs at the golf store and I don't feel like I'm biased against US clubs, I just really haven't found anything as good as my current set.
[/quote]

I was originally going to put together a combo set from the Epon line (703, 503, 302, Tour), but for half the price, I've also considered Taylormade Tour Preferred CB/MC/MB, Mizuno MP-4/64/54, and Titleist 714 MB/CB/AP2.

My fitter said a new TM TP MC is coming out in January, so I may wait for that...

[Honman]

There isn't a new mc coming. There is an RSI TP coming which is closer to the CB. But with slots in the face and and a muti material design. I don't think you're going to like them and you'd be wasting your time waiting. And I've seen the designs for these as well. This isn't just hearsay.

[IamMarkMac]

[quote name='PepsiDuck' timestamp='1411585163' post='10176477']
[quote name='IamMarkMac' timestamp='1411582438' post='10176243']
With regard to feeling like you're not considering quality sets from USDM, what sets exactly are these? I'm always hitting USDM clubs at the golf store and I don't feel like I'm biased against US clubs, I just really haven't found anything as good as my current set.
[/quote]

I was originally going to put together a combo set from the Epon line (703, 503, 302, Tour), but for half the price, I've also considered Taylormade Tour Preferred CB/MC/MB, Mizuno MP-4/64/54, and Titleist 714 MB/CB/AP2.

My fitter said a new TM TP MC is coming out in January, so I may wait for that...
[/quote]

That's a good list. I've tried those all and only the Mizuno speaks to me. I'm a fan of TM GI offerings but don't feel the same about their players irons.

[Jamboy72]

[quote name='IamMarkMac' timestamp='1411581595' post='10176129']
[quote name='mr.haha' timestamp='1411536897' post='10173479']
First off i have a hard time calling it USDM. Maybe it should really be called CDM (China) or TDM (Taiwan or Thailand) or PDM (Phillipines). Any way you slice it nothing is manufactured here in the US (the big boys that is).
[/quote]

DM actually means "Domestic Market" which refers to the buying population. It's not a reference to place of manufacture.
[/quote]

This is an important and often missed bit of information....

For me, the bottom line is that the buyer has to decide exactly what's important to them...

If your bottom line is performance, you're going to be fine either way
If your bottom line is price, you'll want to stick with USDM
If your bottom line is spec tolerance off the line, it's JDM
If your bottom line is exclusivity, JDM wins there as well

For me, I tend to be a price/performance guy, so USDM wins all day long for me...

[craniac76]

After having an expensive experiment with a Tourstage driver and Miura irons, I'm going back to components LOL. Much more affordable and comparable to JDM. And you can build them according to your specs.

[freehb]

Sort of agree w jamboy. Performance...not much difference...look after some use, sound and especially feel, jdm is just much better. I don't count us Miura as jdm either as another poster said. can't go back (have tried) and it's like going from usda prime steak, cooked perfectly to eating mcdonalds...

Micky d's will get the job done but not as enjoyable.

[LionGolfer]

[quote name='kingarthur' timestamp='1411528774' post='10172933']
Don't have any problem with switching back and forth, for me the performance is the same if properly fitted.
[/quote]

Well said and then its down to personal preference.

[PepsiDuck]

All the responses have me even more undecided now...hahah...

It may come down to just hitting all those newer USDM models and comparing them side by side to my current irons which I love...

[Shambles]

Once I've rebuilt the clubs to my personal preferences I find they all seem to play the same, other than the built in dictates of the club designer.



Shambles

[PepsiDuck]

The more I think about it, the more I realize that the rarity of JDM is very much a factor for me...as ridiculous as it sounds...and playing with clubs most people have never heard of appeals to me...

[Shambles]

[quote name='PepsiDuck' timestamp='1411967930' post='10203863']
The more I think about it, the more I realize that the rarity of JDM is very much a factor for me...as ridiculous as it sounds...and playing with clubs most people have never heard of appeals to me...
[/quote]

I'm more inclined to believe the partial exclusivity of a more expensive set creates the attraction. Over the decades I have seen sets of clubs made from the screws of the Queen Mary ( ? ), others embedded with genuine diamonds or some other precious stones or simply dressed up with the renderings of some artist.

Japanese made clubs just happen to have been made in a country wherein just about any product costs so much more because any and all aspects of life in that country truly costs so much more. The selling price is simply a reflection of the economy that product came from.



Shambles

[freehb]

That's probably part of it but I also think there are some cultural differences. They (the Japanese)tend to prioritize quality over quantity and price, tend to have less "stuff" and tend to keep it longer. Actually, quite a bit of jdm gear isn't made in japan. I have some epon af203s that were made at one of the endo factories in Thailand. They are very good quality. As other posters mentioned, jdm or usdm does refer to the market they're made for not where they're made.

It should be noted that many Japanese play and like usdm gear. Especially at the us price points. I remember some business contacts coming here. They wanted to go to golfsmith and stocked up big time....we're very happy.

The jdm market has a lot more options, both in brands and characteristics. It's daunting sometimes but now we have the internet.

I like the concept of having less but nicer stuff. It took me a long time to settle on the gear I like and have it built to my spec and tastes...it still changes now and then but the heads I have now (esp the irons) I will be gaming for a long time to come.

If you have the money and interest, by all means, pursue all the little boutique brands, if not but you like jdm and want to try I would stick to brands like epon, Yamaha, tour stage, etc...the most popular brand in japan is xxio. They have some high end stuff but one of the reasons they are so popular is they are relatively affordable...

[IamMarkMac]

[quote name='Shambles' timestamp='1412101262' post='10212915']
[quote name='PepsiDuck' timestamp='1411967930' post='10203863']
The more I think about it, the more I realize that the rarity of JDM is very much a factor for me...as ridiculous as it sounds...and playing with clubs most people have never heard of appeals to me...
[/quote]

I'm more inclined to believe the partial exclusivity of a more expensive set creates the attraction. Over the decades I have seen sets of clubs made from the screws of the Queen Mary ( ? ), others embedded with genuine diamonds or some other precious stones or simply dressed up with the renderings of some artist.

Japanese made clubs just happen to have been made in a country wherein just about any product costs so much more because any and all aspects of life in that country truly costs so much more. The selling price is simply a reflection of the economy that product came from.

Shambles
[/quote]

A reflection of economy, sure. But, to me, it is much more a reflection of the culture. The Japanese are perfectionists and single-minded in that pursuit. I find that attitude constantly in all aspects of their society. It made perfect sense to me that the Japanese would seek to create clubs to a higher standard than the rest of the world.

[stevopagolf]

I use to play Titleist AP2's 5 years ago. I liked them but wanted more forgiveness. Tried the AP1 and didn't like its feel. Searched Titleist website found VG3's in 2010 liked the look bought a set from TourspecGolf and that was that. Just upgraded the 2010 to 2014 model VG3. I play the TM Gloire Reserve driver, I liked the feel of its ceramic face, again something not available here. I do plan to try the Titleist 915 when it comes out.

It had everything to do with what was offered in Japan fit what I wanted --not an attempt to be cool. If titleist made a AP1 forged available in the US, I would buy it. They have it in Korea but not here.

I am not a fan of the 3 month product cycles that seem to be the rage of TM and now Callaway as it devalues whatever you just bought is worthless.