Back to life, back to reality (blades for me)

[DeNinny]

[quote name='Bigmean' timestamp='1414451182' post='10359349']
5. Feel is not percieved. There is a case of debate in the JDM section where people agree to disagree on Miura feel vs. Kyoei forged feel (Vegas etc) and that is subjective to ones preferences, but FEEDBACK, not feel on good shots, is indisputable in its translation. I consider myself to be a feel player and havea good feel for shots. I know when I hook a ball before it starts to turn etc. I have a difficult time determining what is going to happen when I hit GI clubs and I consider myself to be more in tune than many. It is annoying to think something was OK and it wasn't or visa versa. The argument of feeling worse on mishits id bad logic because it is saying that you want to do something the wrong way and be rewarded for it not in performance, but by "feeling" better about a bad play. This would be like if an NFL QB threw a bunch of bad passes, but the defense always dropped the ball rather than intercepting them. At the end of the day, he still played bad and didn't have good completions. So what GI clubs do in turn, and is my main argument against them being truly game improvement, is not tell you directly that what you did was bad, so you become more comfortable doing bad things over and over and "groove" a swing of bad habits. True game improvement would be learning to strike the ball well with a correct path and clubface angle. [b]Let not confuse helpful feedback with a nicer or more pleasing feel on well struck shots. Blades offer both of these in spades over GI clubs anyway.[/b]

I am not good golfer. I am obviously better than many, but worse than many as well. When I go out and shoot 85, it is not because I played blades, it is because I played bad, because I missed putts, hit drives in trouble, missed greens, the whole deal. All things being relative across all handicaps and that truth applies to ALL golfers for ALL their clubs. If you believe that, and not marketing hype, then you get to the root of the game, which is what happens in the impact zone. Improve that and you improve your scores. Masking problems there has no long term benefits.
[/quote]

Bigmean that was such a good post on all five points, but I would just like to point out to your point in bold, that a pleasing feeling on a well struck shot is just another part of that very same feedback. It's not a separate issue. That's what you feel when you hit it close to the COP / sweetzone / sweetspot. It's giving you the [i][b]positive feedback[/b][/i] that is the best with a blade/MB and what cannot be duplicated with a CB/GI club. There's no question a pure (or near pure) strike feels much better with a blade/MB over any CB/GI club. What is happening on the physics level is that you hit the ball with the maximum concentration of mass possible directly behind it. The sweetspot of the clubface contacted the ball on it's own COG. The energy transfer is at the absolute maximum because of this, and so that is why it feels like nothing compared to all the other strikes that were off center. The resulting vibration through the club and into your hands is also at a minimum as well. Again that's why it feels so nice (and positive) and overall better than a CB/GI club. And also that is why it feels worse the more off center the hit.

Contrast all this to a CB/GI club with, by design, the majority of the mass being around the face perimeter, and it doesn't even come in direct contact with the ball. Sure you get a nice feeling, but it is just a little dull by comparison. This cannot be avoided by the physics. There's only a thin layer of metal directly behind the ball with a CB/GI club. Instead of precise feedback, you get a more consistent dull feel that doesn't change as much from swing differences.

Now let's take it further in the case of the worked ball with a blade/MB. That same mass behind the ball makes the ball much more susceptible to spin because it doesn't have a flexible thin wall behind it like a CB/GI club. That thin wall dampens the spin as it flexes inward more than a blade/MB during impact. So with a blade/MB, that extra mass gives more ability to spin the ball intentionally.

Oh and to your point about impact zone: that is so true! A blade/MB is telling you exactly what happened at impact. It is telling you what happened through the observed the ball flight, through the feel in your hands, and lastly through the sound in your ears. Again, all of this is based on the physics of the mass distribution behind the ball, which cannot be mimicked. A blade is the clearest communicator of impact, so why [i]not[/i] use one to learn? Sure there will be negative feedback, but there will be positive feedback as well. Again, it tells the brutal truth about the swing that just went into it.

[DeNinny]

[quote name='Hokum' timestamp='1414434643' post='10358207']
Love my blades. Freedom to work the ball. I cut 4 off my handicap when changing to blades.
[/quote]

Yet another poster with some real world experience on what club worked best.

Hokum isn't it funny how you contradict the "marketing position" about blades which is contrary to your real experience?

I love how regular golfers just keep posting their real experiences rather than "dropping names" and posting links from people within the industry. Like regular golfers that play a bunch of different clubs don't know their own personal experience.

[Bigmean]

I definitely get the positive feel is feedback, and you have killed it on this thread with intelligent and scientific relevant posts.

I think what I was trying to say is "feel" is vague for many, and maybe what I think happens is that FEEDBACK is misunderstood. Meaning, someone subjected to marking and parroting of marketing thinks "blades suck unless you always hit the sweetspot " so that "feel" is unattainable for most. However you nicely pointed out that it is all feedback good and bad, and positive and negative reinforcement. But that "sweet" feeling often talked about seems to overshadow the benefits of feeling mishits as well. People perceive that negative feedback as a club design problem rather than the benefit it is.

[Chuck_22046]

[quote name='Bigmean' timestamp='1414498681' post='10361373']
I definitely get the positive feel is feedback, and you have killed it on this thread with intelligent and scientific relevant posts.

I think what I was trying to say is "feel" is vague for many, and maybe what I think happens is that FEEDBACK is misunderstood. Meaning, someone subjected to marking and parroting of marketing thinks "blades suck unless you always hit the sweetspot " so that "feel" is unattainable for most. However you nicely pointed out that it is all feedback good and bad, and positive and negative reinforcement. But that "sweet" feeling often talked about seems to overshadow the benefits of feeling mishits as well. People perceive that negative feedback as a club design problem rather than the benefit it is.
[/quote]
When I think...."feel", I mean THAT feel. When you flush one. Feel is part of feedback to my mind, but feedback is kind of the umbrella that it all falls under. When I hit a blade, I can pretty much tell from the feedback where my swing was. Thin, toward the toe...a touch fat maybe. That kind of feedback on one shot might not mean much...but over time, you can very accurately begin to see a swing fault starting, that a GI/SGI club would mask (for me).

Very good stuff

[DevilDog]

Put me in the feel category on why I love playing musclebacks. When I strike it well, I can feel it in my hands. There is a sensation that I get that I never have from most CBs. Those who are in the know have this same experience I'm sure. As for distance, if the lofts are the same they will go just as far. I also love the turf interaction with a MB compared to most CBs. The MBs cut through the turf cleanly whereas the CBs sometimes drag in my experience. Also out of a fairway bunker it's much easier for me to hit a MB than a CB for some reason.

Anyhow, each person's experience is different. Not bashing CBs or those who love playing them. Just passing on my personal reasons I love playing MBs.

[DeNinny]

[quote name='Chuck_22046' timestamp='1414500813' post='10361479']
[quote name='Bigmean' timestamp='1414498681' post='10361373']
I definitely get the positive feel is feedback, and you have killed it on this thread with intelligent and scientific relevant posts.

I think what I was trying to say is "feel" is vague for many, and maybe what I think happens is that FEEDBACK is misunderstood. Meaning, someone subjected to marking and parroting of marketing thinks "blades suck unless you always hit the sweetspot " so that "feel" is unattainable for most. However you nicely pointed out that it is all feedback good and bad, and positive and negative reinforcement. But that "sweet" feeling often talked about seems to overshadow the benefits of feeling mishits as well. People perceive that negative feedback as a club design problem rather than the benefit it is.
[/quote]
When I think...."feel", I mean THAT feel. When you flush one. Feel is part of feedback to my mind, but feedback is kind of the umbrella that it all falls under. When I hit a blade, I can pretty much tell from the feedback where my swing was. Thin, toward the toe...a touch fat maybe. That kind of feedback on one shot might not mean much...but over time, you can very accurately begin to see a swing fault starting, that a GI/SGI club would mask (for me).

Very good stuff
[/quote]

Yes the feedback (and feel) is key to learning impact and a good swing. All though it is impossible to prove, I think the subconscious mind plays into the learning and this feedback is one of the ways it learns. I believe that the subconscious mind and body wants to hit a good shot and wants that sweet feeling. (Why wouldn't the subconscious want that?) Also by the same token the subconscious mind wants to avoid the negative feedback and bad shot. So for the subconscious mind to learn what to do with the swing on its own, again the blade is the best tool.

For me I just wish my conscious mind would just keep from messing things up!

*Disclaimer* I have no means to back up this subconscious mind justification. It is pure speculation and I hope it leads to healthy discussion.

Thanks too Bigmean and chuck for clarifying your perspectives on feel and feedback. I have the same exact experience. Like Devildog just stated, when you have played a blade extensively, you just know that feeling.

[Chuck_22046]

This is an interesting part of this discussion. As some of you may have heard me gripe...my wedge play in the last half of the year was just atrocious. I mean just awful. I was striking it well...but everything was going left. Dead pulls from gap to lob. Changed some grips...and that helped a lot. Realized I had put myself in a pickle by combining Pelz and Utley and just confused myself out of having any kind of short game. But...and this is the strange part to me...

The last few range sessions I have had (including one this morning), I have noticed a few things.

1) The overall quality of my ball striking is improving. Better divots, better distance control, controlling the shaping the was *I* want. Just better...

and this is the strange part....

2) I am not thinking so much about my swing.

Previously, I have caught myself over thinking things. Making sure my positions are right, how's the footwork, is my grip getting too strong...and add way too many swing thoughts, and I felt like I was fighting myself on the course. It was really making golf less fun and more like work. Since I put the blades back...I am just playing golf again. I think on some levels my concentration is better...because I am focusing on the shot I want to make, not the strike (if that makes any sense). This, is migrating up the bag quite nicely too. This morning my wedges were spot on where I like them....I spent more time with my 58 and 60 (have a contest going) than I have in a long time.

I am really loving these blades...

[thug the bunny]

^^Yes, and more yes. My last round, I played with a buddy, and at one point I hit a 6i one or two grooves low (to quote Johnny Miller), and before I even looked up I said, "Ach, a little thin, low and right", and my buddy said "yup,you called that one". I looked up and there it was, a low shot peeling a little right. With blades you don't really need to look, you know.

[Chuck_22046]

[quote name='thug the bunny' timestamp='1414512023' post='10362325']
^^Yes, and more yes. My last round, I played with a buddy, and at one point I hit a 6i one or two grooves low (to quote Johnny Miller), and before I even looked up I said, "Ach, a little thin, low and right", and my buddy said "yup,you called that one". I looked up and there it was, a low shot peeling a little right. With blades you don't really need to look, you know.
[/quote]

This is funny...this morning I did something similar and the buddy I was with was behind me and he said "I miss calling my shots....<sigh>" He had recently switched to Mizuno H4's from MP-29's.

[NRJyzr]

I may be repeating myself in this thread, I know I've certainly posted this elsewhere on WRX, so with my apologies for being repetitive...

I made the switch to blades at a time no one would have suggested I do so. I was a 20 hdcp at the time, and had just finished my second year of playing golf. I had the opportunity to hit a friend's blades, with decent results, which had me interested in checking out my options.

As you'd expect, the general consensus was it was a terrible idea.

One aspect of this discussion that had me trying blades, and ultimately switching to them, was my interest in not having the junk in my game covered by the equipment. At that point, I wanted to improve, and felt that "garbage in, garbage out" might be helpful. As it happens, it was.

The surprise was that I hit the blades better than the CBs I was playing. Go figure.

I was able to make use of the "garbage in, garbage out" aspect to improve my game. It worked for me, but I also noticed it didn't work for everyone. I felt some of the latter was based in perception; I would see little difference in results, but those folks felt as though they were hitting it worse with the blade. I felt it was a bit of confirmation bias, but who am I to say?

The only thing that has me deviating from the blade world at moment is the spin issue. May try to fix that with the golfball, maybe move away from the premium stuff and to the mid-tier balls, at some point. Or just accept I'll have to be a PX or CTaper guy, suck it up and pay what it takes to get 'er done. <shrug>

Here endeth the pre-lunch ramble

[DeNinny]

[quote name='NRJyzr' timestamp='1414513772' post='10362483']
I may be repeating myself in this thread, I know I've certainly posted this elsewhere on WRX, so with my apologies for being repetitive...

I made the switch to blades at a time no one would have suggested I do so. I was a 20 hdcp at the time, and had just finished my second year of playing golf. I had the opportunity to hit a friend's blades, with decent results, which had me interested in checking out my options.

As you'd expect, the general consensus was it was a terrible idea.

One aspect of this discussion that had me trying blades, and ultimately switching to them, was my interest in not having the junk in my game covered by the equipment. At that point, I wanted to improve, and felt that "garbage in, garbage out" might be helpful. As it happens, it was.

The surprise was that I hit the blades better than the CBs I was playing. Go figure.

I was able to make use of the "garbage in, garbage out" aspect to improve my game. It worked for me, but I also noticed it didn't work for everyone. I felt some of the latter was based in perception; I would see little difference in results, but those folks felt as though they were hitting it worse with the blade. I felt it was a bit of confirmation bias, but who am I to say?

The only thing that has me deviating from the blade world at moment is the spin issue. May try to fix that with the golfball, maybe move away from the premium stuff and to the mid-tier balls, at some point. Or just accept I'll have to be a PX or CTaper guy, suck it up and pay what it takes to get 'er done. <shrug>

Here endeth the pre-lunch ramble
[/quote]

NRJyzr, this is a nice share from a former 20 handicap perspective. I think it is even more important to share this perspective since folks like TBeau are so adamant that a high handicap cannot play a blade based on ANECDOTAL observation. Based on your real world experience (and mine when I was a 16), his statements are absolutely not true across the board.

In fact I don't understand the term generalization any more. If you just count what people are saying from their own personal experience, the generalization is that there's no specific iron type that makes you score the best. It's an individual decision. What detracts from the discussion are those that keep name dropping, taking the marketing position, and creating the fear of playing a blade.

So ultimately I applaud and encourage your repeated points, so that a high handicap golfer can have some objective perspective as well.

[Startzel]

[quote name='T.Beau' timestamp='1414441618' post='10358693']
[quote name='thug the bunny' timestamp='1414438380' post='10358469']
[quote]
I guess that is just HIS perception so should be rendered useless according to the forum here. I am failing to understand the purpose of this forum other than it is a reason for people to pontificate THEIR perception and talk about THEIR game, especially since perception is unique to the individual..so it is therefore of little to no value in reading unless another person possesses identical perception to the author of the post
[/quote]

Ultimately, from both a scientific and philosophical perspective, [i]perception is all there is. [/i]So, if talking about one's perception is useless, well, then I guess we should all just shut up.
[/quote]

I think that in large part is a good idea. Something I think I would like to do. I wish there were more people like Tom Wishon contributing around here and that he would contribute more often. Because some people know more about golf than others, and folks can learn from people like him. I also think it is possible to be objective about things. a good reviewer can comment on gear..what it is good at, and what it isnt (with exceptions of course)....if that wasnt the case, there would be no need for reviewers...surely people understand that some reviewers are better than others
So I would like to excuse myself from this thread and apologize if anything is directed at me that i dont respond to...i'm not revisting this thread...i think this topic has gone full circle multiple times.
[/quote]

I hate to see you leave the thread because you were contributing information that others needed to hear.

[DeNinny]

[quote name='Startzel' timestamp='1414523924' post='10363499']
[quote name='T.Beau' timestamp='1414441618' post='10358693']
[quote name='thug the bunny' timestamp='1414438380' post='10358469']
[quote]
I guess that is just HIS perception so should be rendered useless according to the forum here. I am failing to understand the purpose of this forum other than it is a reason for people to pontificate THEIR perception and talk about THEIR game, especially since perception is unique to the individual..so it is therefore of little to no value in reading unless another person possesses identical perception to the author of the post
[/quote]

Ultimately, from both a scientific and philosophical perspective, [i]perception is all there is. [/i]So, if talking about one's perception is useless, well, then I guess we should all just shut up.
[/quote]

I think that in large part is a good idea. Something I think I would like to do. I wish there were more people like Tom Wishon contributing around here and that he would contribute more often. Because some people know more about golf than others, and folks can learn from people like him. I also think it is possible to be objective about things. a good reviewer can comment on gear..what it is good at, and what it isnt (with exceptions of course)....if that wasnt the case, there would be no need for reviewers...surely people understand that some reviewers are better than others
So I would like to excuse myself from this thread and apologize if anything is directed at me that i dont respond to...i'm not revisting this thread...i think this topic has gone full circle multiple times.
[/quote]

I hate to see you leave the thread because you were contributing information that others needed to hear.
[/quote]

Yes it is good to hear the fear of blades marketing perspective to contrast the real world perspective of many golfers that have proven that iron type means little to final score. There's much learn from the contrasting perspective. It kind of proves there are NO ABSOLUTES. Nice post!

By the way, what is your real world experience with blades recently or did you rely blindly on what a fitter sold you? Just curious for more perspective.

[Chuck_22046]

[quote name='Startzel' timestamp='1414523924' post='10363499']
[quote name='T.Beau' timestamp='1414441618' post='10358693']
[quote name='thug the bunny' timestamp='1414438380' post='10358469']
[quote]
I guess that is just HIS perception so should be rendered useless according to the forum here. I am failing to understand the purpose of this forum other than it is a reason for people to pontificate THEIR perception and talk about THEIR game, especially since perception is unique to the individual..so it is therefore of little to no value in reading unless another person possesses identical perception to the author of the post
[/quote]

Ultimately, from both a scientific and philosophical perspective, [i]perception is all there is. [/i]So, if talking about one's perception is useless, well, then I guess we should all just shut up.
[/quote]

I think that in large part is a good idea. Something I think I would like to do. I wish there were more people like Tom Wishon contributing around here and that he would contribute more often. Because some people know more about golf than others, and folks can learn from people like him. I also think it is possible to be objective about things. a good reviewer can comment on gear..what it is good at, and what it isnt (with exceptions of course)....if that wasnt the case, there would be no need for reviewers...surely people understand that some reviewers are better than others
So I would like to excuse myself from this thread and apologize if anything is directed at me that i dont respond to...i'm not revisting this thread...i think this topic has gone full circle multiple times.
[/quote]

I hate to see you leave the thread because you were contributing information that others needed to hear.
[/quote]
I am confused....
What did I need to hear?

[Startzel]

[quote name='DeNinny' timestamp='1414524645' post='10363593']
[quote name='Startzel' timestamp='1414523924' post='10363499']
[quote name='T.Beau' timestamp='1414441618' post='10358693']
[quote name='thug the bunny' timestamp='1414438380' post='10358469']
[quote]
I guess that is just HIS perception so should be rendered useless according to the forum here. I am failing to understand the purpose of this forum other than it is a reason for people to pontificate THEIR perception and talk about THEIR game, especially since perception is unique to the individual..so it is therefore of little to no value in reading unless another person possesses identical perception to the author of the post
[/quote]

Ultimately, from both a scientific and philosophical perspective, [i]perception is all there is. [/i]So, if talking about one's perception is useless, well, then I guess we should all just shut up.
[/quote]

I think that in large part is a good idea. Something I think I would like to do. I wish there were more people like Tom Wishon contributing around here and that he would contribute more often. Because some people know more about golf than others, and folks can learn from people like him. I also think it is possible to be objective about things. a good reviewer can comment on gear..what it is good at, and what it isnt (with exceptions of course)....if that wasnt the case, there would be no need for reviewers...surely people understand that some reviewers are better than others
So I would like to excuse myself from this thread and apologize if anything is directed at me that i dont respond to...i'm not revisting this thread...i think this topic has gone full circle multiple times.
[/quote]

I hate to see you leave the thread because you were contributing information that others needed to hear.
[/quote]

Yes it is good to hear the fear of blades marketing perspective to contrast the real world perspective of many golfers that have proven that iron type means little to final score. There's much learn from the contrasting perspective. It kind of proves there are NO ABSOLUTES. Nice post!

By the way, what is your real world experience with blades recently or did you rely blindly on what a fitter sold you? Just curious for more perspective.
[/quote]

DeNinny, do you really believe that GI irons are just a marketing conspiracy?

[NRJyzr]

[quote name='Chuck_22046' timestamp='1414524688' post='10363599']
I am confused....
What did I need to hear?
[/quote]

He's one of the hardcore anti-blade warriors. He likes to pop up in these threads and either argue or troll, perhaps depending on perspective.

[DeNinny]

[quote name='Startzel' timestamp='1414525182' post='10363675']
[quote name='DeNinny' timestamp='1414524645' post='10363593']
[quote name='Startzel' timestamp='1414523924' post='10363499']

I hate to see you leave the thread because you were contributing information that others needed to hear.
[/quote]

Yes it is good to hear the fear of blades marketing perspective to contrast the real world perspective of many golfers that have proven that iron type means little to final score. There's much learn from the contrasting perspective. It kind of proves there are NO ABSOLUTES. Nice post!

By the way, what is your real world experience with blades recently or did you rely blindly on what a fitter sold you? Just curious for more perspective.
[/quote]

DeNinny, do you really believe that GI irons are just a marketing conspiracy?
[/quote]

Startzel, why can't you simply honor the OP first post and share what you have personally experienced with blades?

I believe the scientific benefit of GI technology is negligible in terms of a golfer's final score and it is definitely not an absolute. I also believe that some aspects of GI technology are detrimental to some golfers. Both of these points have been proven by numerous golfers with a very similar experience.

But enough about me. What's your position and basis for what you feel? Why do you continue to avoid this question in numerous threads? From what I've read from you, you really don't have much recent blade experience. Also you have a contradictory position in that you don't play the most forgiving GI club available, yet admittedly you still mishit the ball. You personal experience may influence others if you would contribute and share.

[Chuck_22046]

[quote name='NRJyzr' timestamp='1414526301' post='10363807']
[quote name='Chuck_22046' timestamp='1414524688' post='10363599']
I am confused....
What did I need to hear?
[/quote]

He's one of the hardcore anti-blade warriors. He likes to pop up in these threads and either argue or troll, perhaps depending on perspective.
[/quote]
Oh...ok, I'll get back to polishing up the Hogan Percussion's I am trying out Thursday then...cool

[Startzel]

[quote name='DeNinny' timestamp='1414526383' post='10363817']
[quote name='Startzel' timestamp='1414525182' post='10363675']
[quote name='DeNinny' timestamp='1414524645' post='10363593']
[quote name='Startzel' timestamp='1414523924' post='10363499']

I hate to see you leave the thread because you were contributing information that others needed to hear.
[/quote]

Yes it is good to hear the fear of blades marketing perspective to contrast the real world perspective of many golfers that have proven that iron type means little to final score. There's much learn from the contrasting perspective. It kind of proves there are NO ABSOLUTES. Nice post!

By the way, what is your real world experience with blades recently or did you rely blindly on what a fitter sold you? Just curious for more perspective.
[/quote]

DeNinny, do you really believe that GI irons are just a marketing conspiracy?
[/quote]

Startzel, why can't you simply honor the OP first post and share what you have personally experienced with blades?

I believe the scientific benefit of GI technology is negligible in terms of a golfer's final score and it is definitely not an absolute. I also believe that some aspects of GI technology are detrimental to some golfers. Both of these points have been proven by numerous golfers with a very similar experience.

But enough about me. What's your position and basis for what you feel? Why do you continue to avoid this question in numerous threads? From what I've read from you, you really don't have much recent blade experience. Also you have a contradictory position in that you don't play the most forgiving GI club available, yet admittedly you still mishit the ball. You personal experience may influence others if you would contribute and share.
[/quote]

I play the clubs a pga professional fit me for. How many posters in here can say the same?

[Chuck_22046]

[quote name='Startzel' timestamp='1414526937' post='10363871']
[quote name='DeNinny' timestamp='1414526383' post='10363817']
[quote name='Startzel' timestamp='1414525182' post='10363675']
[quote name='DeNinny' timestamp='1414524645' post='10363593']
[quote name='Startzel' timestamp='1414523924' post='10363499']
I hate to see you leave the thread because you were contributing information that others needed to hear.
[/quote]

Yes it is good to hear the fear of blades marketing perspective to contrast the real world perspective of many golfers that have proven that iron type means little to final score. There's much learn from the contrasting perspective. It kind of proves there are NO ABSOLUTES. Nice post!

By the way, what is your real world experience with blades recently or did you rely blindly on what a fitter sold you? Just curious for more perspective.
[/quote]

DeNinny, do you really believe that GI irons are just a marketing conspiracy?
[/quote]

Startzel, why can't you simply honor the OP first post and share what you have personally experienced with blades?

I believe the scientific benefit of GI technology is negligible in terms of a golfer's final score and it is definitely not an absolute. I also believe that some aspects of GI technology are detrimental to some golfers. Both of these points have been proven by numerous golfers with a very similar experience.

But enough about me. What's your position and basis for what you feel? Why do you continue to avoid this question in numerous threads? From what I've read from you, you really don't have much recent blade experience. Also you have a contradictory position in that you don't play the most forgiving GI club available, yet admittedly you still mishit the ball. You personal experience may influence others if you would contribute and share.
[/quote]

I play the clubs a pga professional fit me for. How many posters in here can say the same?
[/quote]

I bought one of my sets from a pga pro...does that count?

[Chuck_22046]

[quote name='Startzel' timestamp='1414526937' post='10363871']
[quote name='DeNinny' timestamp='1414526383' post='10363817']
[quote name='Startzel' timestamp='1414525182' post='10363675']
[quote name='DeNinny' timestamp='1414524645' post='10363593']
[quote name='Startzel' timestamp='1414523924' post='10363499']
I hate to see you leave the thread because you were contributing information that others needed to hear.
[/quote]

Yes it is good to hear the fear of blades marketing perspective to contrast the real world perspective of many golfers that have proven that iron type means little to final score. There's much learn from the contrasting perspective. It kind of proves there are NO ABSOLUTES. Nice post!

By the way, what is your real world experience with blades recently or did you rely blindly on what a fitter sold you? Just curious for more perspective.
[/quote]

DeNinny, do you really believe that GI irons are just a marketing conspiracy?
[/quote]

Startzel, why can't you simply honor the OP first post and share what you have personally experienced with blades?

I believe the scientific benefit of GI technology is negligible in terms of a golfer's final score and it is definitely not an absolute. I also believe that some aspects of GI technology are detrimental to some golfers. Both of these points have been proven by numerous golfers with a very similar experience.

But enough about me. What's your position and basis for what you feel? Why do you continue to avoid this question in numerous threads? From what I've read from you, you really don't have much recent blade experience. Also you have a contradictory position in that you don't play the most forgiving GI club available, yet admittedly you still mishit the ball. You personal experience may influence others if you would contribute and share.
[/quote]

I play the clubs a pga professional fit me for. How many posters in here can say the same?
[/quote]
My last post was what I hope was clearly a joke....but the last time I went to get fit, I was fitted for a set of MP-4's.

Here's the best part....instead of listening to the fitter, I got online and was barraged by people telling me that blades were no good. So guess what...I went back and told him no thanks, and put the TS-202's in the bag. Until I joined in this thread, and found OTHER people who had experienced the same better play with blades...

So....what do I need to learn again?

[DeNinny]

[quote name='Startzel' timestamp='1414526937' post='10363871']
[quote name='DeNinny' timestamp='1414526383' post='10363817']
[quote name='Startzel' timestamp='1414525182' post='10363675']
[quote name='DeNinny' timestamp='1414524645' post='10363593']
[quote name='Startzel' timestamp='1414523924' post='10363499']

I hate to see you leave the thread because you were contributing information that others needed to hear.
[/quote]

Yes it is good to hear the fear of blades marketing perspective to contrast the real world perspective of many golfers that have proven that iron type means little to final score. There's much learn from the contrasting perspective. It kind of proves there are NO ABSOLUTES. Nice post!

By the way, what is your real world experience with blades recently or did you rely blindly on what a fitter sold you? Just curious for more perspective.
[/quote]

DeNinny, do you really believe that GI irons are just a marketing conspiracy?
[/quote]

Startzel, why can't you simply honor the OP first post and share what you have personally experienced with blades?

I believe the scientific benefit of GI technology is negligible in terms of a golfer's final score and it is definitely not an absolute. I also believe that some aspects of GI technology are detrimental to some golfers. Both of these points have been proven by numerous golfers with a very similar experience.

But enough about me. What's your position and basis for what you feel? Why do you continue to avoid this question in numerous threads? From what I've read from you, you really don't have much recent blade experience. Also you have a contradictory position in that you don't play the most forgiving GI club available, yet admittedly you still mishit the ball. You personal experience may influence others if you would contribute and share.
[/quote]

I play the clubs a pga professional fit me for. How many posters in here can say the same?
[/quote]

I can! My mp67s were professionally fitted for me by a pga pro.

So you let someone watch your swing for a while and you personally let them decide what clubs should help you score the best. Good for you!

I didn't even bother to make that point for myself because, well, it doesn't have that much merit. Instead I choose to share from my personal experience of playing a mb and a cb set with exactly the same shafts, lofts, and lies for 8 years now, where I discovered through hundreds of rounds and from a 16 down to a 7.5, that the iron type did not affect my score. Do you have such experience? How come being fit by a pga pro for a few hours is so "credible"? It's a weak argument so I have chosen not to use it to make my points.

[Chuck_22046]

Hamlet, scene ii; variant, from the First Folio: "The rest is silence."

back to our regularly scheduled programming....

[DeNinny]

[quote name='Chuck_22046' timestamp='1414526422' post='10363827']
[quote name='NRJyzr' timestamp='1414526301' post='10363807']
[quote name='Chuck_22046' timestamp='1414524688' post='10363599']
I am confused....
What did I need to hear?
[/quote]

He's one of the hardcore anti-blade warriors. He likes to pop up in these threads and either argue or troll, perhaps depending on perspective.
[/quote]
Oh...ok, I'll get back to polishing up the Hogan Percussion's I am trying out Thursday then...cool
[/quote]

I liked that his points were based on 1) his personal experience learning to play with a blade, 2) his own anecdotal observation of "lousy" blade playing golfers, and 3) the anecdotal observation of highly biased industry folks with an obvious bias towards selling GI clubs.

Contrast all this against the numerous golfers with much different and varied personal and real world experience playing all types of clubs. Many of which found blades to be equal or better than a CB/GI club in terms of score.

It all makes for a healthy discussion. The readers are truly getting various viewpoints in the spirit of golfwrx. When I was a reader/lurker, a healthy discussion like this one is what influenced me to buy my mp67s. The contrast proved to me that there isn't an absolute answer.

Oh and I almost forgot to mention Startzel's position to rely on your pga pro fitter to decide for you. So many viable paths to consider now...

[Chuck_22046]

Hey...check these out. A buddy and I are going to hit the range Thursday morning, and play a quick 18. I am going to bring a couple of these. 1967 Hogan PC-7. You can see the "blade-on-blade" design...and that darn underslung hosel Hogan liked to make it easier to work (and [email protected]).

I am so stoked to try these...

[attachment=2476805:image1.JPG]

That's the 2 iron...and no, that one isn't coming along...lol

[Snufles]

[quote name='Startzel' timestamp='1414526937' post='10363871']
[quote name='DeNinny' timestamp='1414526383' post='10363817']
[quote name='Startzel' timestamp='1414525182' post='10363675']
[quote name='DeNinny' timestamp='1414524645' post='10363593']
[quote name='Startzel' timestamp='1414523924' post='10363499']
I hate to see you leave the thread because you were contributing information that others needed to hear.
[/quote]

Yes it is good to hear the fear of blades marketing perspective to contrast the real world perspective of many golfers that have proven that iron type means little to final score. There's much learn from the contrasting perspective. It kind of proves there are NO ABSOLUTES. Nice post!

By the way, what is your real world experience with blades recently or did you rely blindly on what a fitter sold you? Just curious for more perspective.
[/quote]

DeNinny, do you really believe that GI irons are just a marketing conspiracy?
[/quote]

Startzel, why can't you simply honor the OP first post and share what you have personally experienced with blades?

I believe the scientific benefit of GI technology is negligible in terms of a golfer's final score and it is definitely not an absolute. I also believe that some aspects of GI technology are detrimental to some golfers. Both of these points have been proven by numerous golfers with a very similar experience.

But enough about me. What's your position and basis for what you feel? Why do you continue to avoid this question in numerous threads? From what I've read from you, you really don't have much recent blade experience. Also you have a contradictory position in that you don't play the most forgiving GI club available, yet admittedly you still mishit the ball. You personal experience may influence others if you would contribute and share.
[/quote]

I play the clubs a pga professional fit me for. How many posters in here can say the same?
[/quote]

What blades are you even talking about? You seem to lump all of them together in one group, blades have changed quite a bit from the time you seem to have formed this opinion. Perhaps you need to go hit a few before jumping into EVERY blade thread and calling shenanigans on peoples actual results.

I call SHENANIGANS on you for being a troll since this is what your name has become synonymous with on GolfWRX.


A thread Startzel.

[Startzel]

[quote name='Snufles' timestamp='1414535970' post='10364703']


What blades are you even talking about? You seem to lump all of them together in one group, blades have changed quite a bit from the time you seem to have formed this opinion. Perhaps you need to go hit a few before jumping into EVERY blade thread and calling shenanigans on peoples actual results.

I call SHENANIGANS on you for being a troll since this is what your name has become synonymous with on GolfWRX.


A thread Startzel.
[/quote]

It's pretty sad that the person arguing for objective, reasonable discussion is considered the 'troll' in this scenario.

[Snufles]

[quote name='Chuck_22046' timestamp='1414535634' post='10364669']
Hey...check these out. A buddy and I are going to hit the range Thursday morning, and play a quick 18. I am going to bring a couple of these. 1967 Hogan PC-7. You can see the "blade-on-blade" design...and that darn underslung hosel Hogan liked to make it easier to work (and [email protected]).

I am so stoked to try these...

[attachment=2476805:image1.JPG]

That's the 2 iron...and no, that one isn't coming along...lol
[/quote]

Would love to play a set of those for a summer.

[Snufles]

[quote name='Startzel' timestamp='1414536294' post='10364731']
[quote name='Snufles' timestamp='1414535970' post='10364703']
What blades are you even talking about? You seem to lump all of them together in one group, blades have changed quite a bit from the time you seem to have formed this opinion. Perhaps you need to go hit a few before jumping into EVERY blade thread and calling shenanigans on peoples actual results.

I call SHENANIGANS on you for being a troll since this is what your name has become synonymous with on GolfWRX.


A thread Startzel.
[/quote]

It's pretty sad that the person arguing for objective, reasonable discussion is considered the 'troll' in this scenario.
[/quote]

You do it every time. Hence the Startzel status.

Honestly you should be busy reading everyone's WITB so you can PM them individually, to tell them what they need to play. For that matter, since they are not going to qualify for the next US Open, to just give up and just walk the course.

[Chuck_22046]

[quote name='Startzel' timestamp='1414536294' post='10364731']
[quote name='Snufles' timestamp='1414535970' post='10364703']
What blades are you even talking about? You seem to lump all of them together in one group, blades have changed quite a bit from the time you seem to have formed this opinion. Perhaps you need to go hit a few before jumping into EVERY blade thread and calling shenanigans on peoples actual results.

I call SHENANIGANS on you for being a troll since this is what your name has become synonymous with on GolfWRX.


A thread Startzel.
[/quote]

It's pretty sad that the person arguing for objective, reasonable discussion is considered the 'troll' in this scenario.
[/quote]
This thread is nothing but reasonable objective discussion. It deviates from that, when the original purpose of the thread is forgotten. The OP stated he discovered his play was better from blades.

Your post stated "I hate to see you leave the thread because you were contributing information that others needed to hear."

The inference would be that those that have expressed success with blades need to hear more information. Why? That makes no sense to me.

You further seemed to say that people hadn't been fitted for these blades.....without actually having any information mind you.

So....I join Snufles in calling[b] shenanigans[/b]. If you wish to discuss how blades work for you. Or why perhaps they DON'T work for you, then please join in!! If however if you wish to make passive aggressive and altogether uninformed statements....the [b]shenanigans [/b]stands as called[b].[/b]