Back to life, back to reality (blades for me)

[DNice26]

[quote name='NRJyzr' timestamp='1414428724' post='10357671']
[quote name='DNice26' timestamp='1414427537' post='10357573']
[quote name='NRJyzr' timestamp='1414427442' post='10357563']
Moving the ball around becomes much more interesting when you use an older golf ball. Not just a wound ball, but anything you might have from the 90s. They move around so much more than the modern golf balls.

I put some balatas in play earlier this year, because I could, and on my first par 3, was amazed to see the amount of lateral movement on what I thought was going to be a mild draw. Same thing with the "mild cut" on the next par 3.

Fun stuff.
[/quote]
Getting your Bubba on! lol....nice.
[/quote]

Remember when Callaway had the HX Blue and HX Red balls? At the same time, they also released a CTU Blue and CTU Red, these had more "normal" dimple patterns.

It was reported nearly all of the Senior Tour players on the Callaway staff were playing the CTU Red, because the HX Red wouldn't move like they wanted.

I found that interesting.

As a side note, I put my Eye2+ in the bag yesterday, on a lark. Was hitting a second shot on a particular hole, with a 6 iron. Wind out of the right, pin on the left middle. I hit it out to the right, trying to move it to the left side pin.

I was playing the earlier mentioned HX Chrome+. Ball moved a couple yards left, no more, even with the wind trying to help.

If it wasn't fall golf, I might try messing with the balatas again. Would hate losing one in the leaves, though. Maybe I'll dig out the FG Tours as a proxy.
[/quote]

Have you tried the Cally Super Soft? Crazy ball. Won't move like the old balatas, but sure feels like one.

[Chuck_22046]

[quote name='DNice26' timestamp='1414428874' post='10357691']
[quote name='NRJyzr' timestamp='1414428724' post='10357671']
[quote name='DNice26' timestamp='1414427537' post='10357573']
[quote name='NRJyzr' timestamp='1414427442' post='10357563']
Moving the ball around becomes much more interesting when you use an older golf ball. Not just a wound ball, but anything you might have from the 90s. They move around so much more than the modern golf balls.

I put some balatas in play earlier this year, because I could, and on my first par 3, was amazed to see the amount of lateral movement on what I thought was going to be a mild draw. Same thing with the "mild cut" on the next par 3.

Fun stuff.
[/quote]
Getting your Bubba on! lol....nice.
[/quote]

Remember when Callaway had the HX Blue and HX Red balls? At the same time, they also released a CTU Blue and CTU Red, these had more "normal" dimple patterns.

It was reported nearly all of the Senior Tour players on the Callaway staff were playing the CTU Red, because the HX Red wouldn't move like they wanted.

I found that interesting.

As a side note, I put my Eye2+ in the bag yesterday, on a lark. Was hitting a second shot on a particular hole, with a 6 iron. Wind out of the right, pin on the left middle. I hit it out to the right, trying to move it to the left side pin.

I was playing the earlier mentioned HX Chrome+. Ball moved a couple yards left, no more, even with the wind trying to help.

If it wasn't fall golf, I might try messing with the balatas again. Would hate losing one in the leaves, though. Maybe I'll dig out the FG Tours as a proxy.
[/quote]

Have you tried the Cally Super Soft? Crazy ball. Won't move like the old balatas, but sure feels like one.
[/quote]

More than a few people tell me the FG Tours "remind" them of balata....hmmm. I got a bumper crop of Duo's for Christmas, Father's Day, B-Day...a ton. They aren't bad at all....and dirt cheap.

I might buy I sleeve of those FG Tours (after I evaluate that spin issue you mentioned)

[T.Beau]

Here's some thoughts:

-Its much easier to hit the ball on the range, so i think it is best to judge club performance on the course. Especially when considering buying a set of blades

-Golf really doesnt become so mental until someone has a grooved repeating swing. Until that time, it is far more mechanical than mental. Cant will a good pass on the ball if a person does not have the technique to do that

-Blades really arent better to work the ball other than it is easier to hit the ball low. Conversely they are harder to hit high....so its a wash. It is every bit as easy to hit a GI or SGI club left to right or right to left. Its not like blades are curved like hockey sticks. It is also possible to hit a (most) sgi clubs low given good technique to do that. Modern golf balls are harder to hit l to r or r to l..that is mostly the problem and it doesnt matter what kind of iron you are swinging

-Blades are not more accurate than any other iron unless someone is a really really good ball striker. I dont mean a really good ball striker compared to a 90 shooter. There may be a minute advantage laterally but they have far less accuracy for distance control because they are much harder to flush hit than other types of clubs.

- I understand that many choose blades because of some perceived notion of better feel. feel is of course subjective, so no one can dispute something like that. But I contend that blades dont feel so good when miss hit, and that happens a lot more than w. other types of clubs (see above). so one could build a case for saying that blades have horrible feel. I think its more about the quality of the forging than the type of club anyway. i;ve never played anything feeling as sweet as the irons i play....ditto for the j36cbs. interesting (for me) to note that the last time i played blades they werent even forged, and they felt as good as any forged blade i played until that point...even some pros who played these thought they were forged. they were easier to flush hit..why? because the blade was elongated. there isnt any magical fairy dust you can put on a compact head to give a big sweetzone

-Blades do not force a person to better concentrate. Normal people will try and flush hit whatever club they are swinging to the best of their ability. And if someone doesnt have the technique to flush hit a blade, all the concentration in the world aint gonna make a great hit happen, unless by pure luck

I'm just writing all this hoping to save some people some frustration and money if jumping on this blade bandwagon. I think people should buy gear appropriate to their skillset. that seems logical (to me anyway). But as I always say, people can sure play whatever they like for whatever reasons they like....i just dont like to see stuff posted which may misdirect people and frustrate them and waste their money and cause them to play worse golf
-.

[NRJyzr]

[quote name='DNice26' timestamp='1414428874' post='10357691']
Have you tried the Cally Super Soft? Crazy ball. Won't move like the old balatas, but sure feels like one.
[/quote]


I haven't tried too many low compression golf balls. I've always gone for the performance balls for the greenside spin. And (at the risk of inviting the swingspeed trolls), low comp balls haven't done much for me; they sometimes fly kind of oddly. Until recently (damned aging), I may have been a little on the high side in terms of swingspeed for them.

With age taking its toll (LOL), it might be worth an effort, though. Soft is good, and I'm leaning towards not worrying about the spin as much as I once did.

I *did* hit a QStar the other day,, which isn't quite in the low comp realm, and was surprised how soft it felt. I was also surprised at how it went nowhere, making me worry about my above comment about me and low comp balls, but to be fair my friend had found it in a hazard, so it may have taken a performance hit from the elements.

[NRJyzr]

I mean no offense at this, but I would submit these are truths as you have found them, with respect to you and your game. They may not apply to others.

Personally speaking, my own findings, with respect to me and my game, are in disagreement with several of your points.

I'll add I do not believe my findings about my game are terribly relevant to everyone. I have a friend who bounces between a 7 and 10 hdcp, who is not a good iron player. In no way do I think he should even think about trying blades (he's been using Ping G series irons as long as I've known him).



[quote name='T.Beau' timestamp='1414429282' post='10357743']
Here's some thoughts:

-Its much easier to hit the ball on the range, so i think it is best to judge club performance on the course. Especially when considering buying a set of blades

-Golf really doesnt become so mental until someone has a grooved repeating swing. Until that time, it is far more mechanical than mental. Cant will a good pass on the ball if a person does not have the technique to do that

-Blades really arent better to work the ball other than it is easier to hit the ball low. Conversely they are harder to hit high....so its a wash. It is every bit as easy to hit a GI or SGI club left to right or right to left. Its not like blades are curved like hockey sticks. It is also possible to hit a (most) sgi clubs low given good technique to do that. Modern golf balls are harder to hit l to r or r to l..that is mostly the problem and it doesnt matter what kind of iron you are swinging

-Blades are not more accurate than any other iron unless someone is a really really good ball striker. I dont mean a really good ball striker compared to a 90 shooter. There may be a minute advantage laterally but they have far less accuracy for distance control because they are much harder to flush hit than other types of clubs.

- I understand that many choose blades because of some perceived notion of better feel. feel is of course subjective, so no one can dispute something like that. But I contend that blades dont feel so good when miss hit, and that happens a lot more than w. other types of clubs (see above). so one could build a case for saying that blades have horrible feel. I think its more about the quality of the forging than the type of club anyway. i;ve never played anything feeling as sweet as the irons i play....ditto for the j36cbs. interesting (for me) to note that the last time i played blades they werent even forged, and they felt as good as any forged blade i played until that point...even some pros who played these thought they were forged. they were easier to flush hit..why? because the blade was elongated. there isnt any magical fairy dust you can put on a compact head to give a big sweetzone

-Blades do not force a person to better concentrate. Normal people will try and flush hit whatever club they are swinging to the best of their ability. And if someone doesnt have the technique to flush hit a blade, all the concentration in the world aint gonna make a great hit happen, unless by pure luck

I'm just writing all this hoping to save some people some frustration and money if jumping on this blade bandwagon. I think people should buy gear appropriate to their skillset. that seems logical (to me anyway). But as I always say, people can sure play whatever they like for whatever reasons they like....i just dont like to see stuff posted which may misdirect people and frustrate them and waste their money and cause them to play worse golf
-.
[/quote]

[Chuck_22046]

[quote name='NRJyzr' timestamp='1414430101' post='10357805']
I mean no offense at this, but I would submit these are truths as you have found them, with respect to you and your game. They may not apply to others.

Personally speaking, my own findings, with respect to me and my game, are in disagreement with several of your points.

I'll add I do not believe my findings about my game are terribly relevant to everyone. I have a friend who bounces between a 7 and 10 hdcp, who is not a good iron player. In no way do I think he should even think about trying blades (he's been using Ping G series irons as long as I've known him).
[/quote]

This pretty much covers everything I had intended to say in my overly clever reply....well spoken on all points

[NRJyzr]

Another random thought, with respect to blades and the golfball you use with them...

Many years ago, I was regularly playing my set of Mizuno MS-11s. On a whim, I picked up a dozen Precept U-Tour Extra Spin balls. They didn't get a lot of press, they were in between the U Tri Tour, which was insanely popular at the time, and the U Tri Extra Distance, which was also insanely popular across the intarwebs.

Precept said the U Tri ES was a bit firmer, should spin less than the U Tri Tour on full shots, and suggested it as a good ball for higher swingspeeds.

I'd played the U Tri Tour, and was regularly playing balls like the Slazenger Players, and whatever Maxfli quasi-wound ball was around at the time (A10, M3, etc).

On the second hole I played with this ball, I wound up airmailing a green with a 5 iron, from what was borderline 5 iron distance; I thought I was pushing it trying to get it there. I thought I'd caught a flier, but that distance increase stayed with me the entire day, and throughout the rest of that dozen balls.

Turns out, the lower spin on full shots Precept said I'd be seeing was just what I needed. I've since found out I spin the ball FAR too much with this Mizuno set.

Another aspect of matching one's equipment with one's game.

[T.Beau]

[quote name='NRJyzr' timestamp='1414430101' post='10357805']
I mean no offense at this, but I would submit these are truths as you have found them, with respect to you and your game. They may not apply to others.

Personally speaking, my own findings, with respect to me and my game, are in disagreement with several of your points.

I'll add I do not believe my findings about my game are terribly relevant to everyone. I have a friend who bounces between a 7 and 10 hdcp, who is not a good iron player. In no way do I think he should even think about trying blades (he's been using Ping G series irons as long as I've known him).



[quote name='T.Beau' timestamp='1414429282' post='10357743']
Here's some thoughts:

-Its much easier to hit the ball on the range, so i think it is best to judge club performance on the course. Especially when considering buying a set of blades

-Golf really doesnt become so mental until someone has a grooved repeating swing. Until that time, it is far more mechanical than mental. Cant will a good pass on the ball if a person does not have the technique to do that

-Blades really arent better to work the ball other than it is easier to hit the ball low. Conversely they are harder to hit high....so its a wash. It is every bit as easy to hit a GI or SGI club left to right or right to left. Its not like blades are curved like hockey sticks. It is also possible to hit a (most) sgi clubs low given good technique to do that. Modern golf balls are harder to hit l to r or r to l..that is mostly the problem and it doesnt matter what kind of iron you are swinging

-Blades are not more accurate than any other iron unless someone is a really really good ball striker. I dont mean a really good ball striker compared to a 90 shooter. There may be a minute advantage laterally but they have far less accuracy for distance control because they are much harder to flush hit than other types of clubs.

- I understand that many choose blades because of some perceived notion of better feel. feel is of course subjective, so no one can dispute something like that. But I contend that blades dont feel so good when miss hit, and that happens a lot more than w. other types of clubs (see above). so one could build a case for saying that blades have horrible feel. I think its more about the quality of the forging than the type of club anyway. i;ve never played anything feeling as sweet as the irons i play....ditto for the j36cbs. interesting (for me) to note that the last time i played blades they werent even forged, and they felt as good as any forged blade i played until that point...even some pros who played these thought they were forged. they were easier to flush hit..why? because the blade was elongated. there isnt any magical fairy dust you can put on a compact head to give a big sweetzone

-Blades do not force a person to better concentrate. Normal people will try and flush hit whatever club they are swinging to the best of their ability. And if someone doesnt have the technique to flush hit a blade, all the concentration in the world aint gonna make a great hit happen, unless by pure luck

I'm just writing all this hoping to save some people some frustration and money if jumping on this blade bandwagon. I think people should buy gear appropriate to their skillset. that seems logical (to me anyway). But as I always say, people can sure play whatever they like for whatever reasons they like....i just dont like to see stuff posted which may misdirect people and frustrate them and waste their money and cause them to play worse golf
-.
[/quote]
[/quote]

It's fine to disagree, but good to disagree with some information countering what i've said. For example I would like for someone to tell me why blades are easier than other clubs to work laterally...something that isnt a perception...a club design reason.

but i suggest to you that i do have experiences which are founded in truth. having given a few thousand tennis lessons over the years i know how people learn, and what role the gear plays in the process. In tennis there are many similarities...relative is that in tennis there are players racquets (blades), game improvement, and super game improvement. I;ve given lessons to people of all ages and gender who use all kinds of gear....far less of them at all levels of play using 'players racquets' (blades)..so i know what the effects are when folks use gear not decently matched to their skillset

as a side note, there are also 'tweener' racquets. those fell in between so called 'players racquets' and 'game improvement'. perhaps 'tweener' would be an appropriate term in golf as well

[Chuck_22046]

[quote name='T.Beau' timestamp='1414431780' post='10357939']
It's fine to disagree, but good to disagree with some information countering what i've said. For example I would like for someone to tell me why blades are easier than other clubs to work laterally...something that isnt a perception...a club design reason.

but i suggest to you that i do have experiences which are founded in truth. having given a few thousand tennis lessons over the years i know how people learn, and what role the gear plays in the process. In tennis there are many similarities...relative is that in tennis there are players racquets (blades), game improvement, and super game improvement. I;ve given lessons to people of all ages and gender who use all kinds of gear....far less of them at all levels of play using 'players racquets' (blades)..so i know what the effects are when folks use gear not decently matched to their skillset

as a side note, there are also 'tweener' racquets. those fell in between so called 'players racquets' and 'game improvement'. perhaps 'tweener' would be an appropriate term in golf as well
[/quote]

I'll give this a shot...so to speak:

Generally speaking:

GI/SGI irons tend to have wider soles with more camber. Speaking for me, while I can appreciate a good sole grind, I don't need a wider sole to assist with digging. I tend to sweep the ball so would gain nothing.

GI/SGI tend to have their weight low...to assist in getting shots in the air. For a person like me who wishes to control their distance by controlling their trajectory, this is not good.

GI/SGI irons tend to have a fair amount of offset. No bad thing as the offset is there to (supposedly) keep your hands ahead of the ball, and to assist in closing the club face to prevent a slice (typical miss for that target market). I have no problems keeping my hands in from of the ball, and based on my two most recent range sessions where I was testing out irons to replace my hybrids I would tend to agree with the issues that additional offset provides. With the GI irons I was trying out, I was hitting low grounders to left field. Too much offset affects my game. Even the hybrids I use have "on-set".

EDIT: I forgot the most important one:
GI/SGI typically have more perimeter weighting which tends to reduce the affects of off center shots and minimize twisting. Blades do not have that compensation built in, so they are therefore easier to cut, which is my preferred shot. GI/SGI however are easier to draw than a blade for the same reasons.

If I had the time or inclination...I am sure I could come up with more, but all the science and psudoscience aside, I like the way they feel and I like the way they allow me to control my shots.

[DeNinny]

[quote name='T.Beau' timestamp='1414431780' post='10357939']
[quote name='NRJyzr' timestamp='1414430101' post='10357805']
I mean no offense at this, but I would submit these are truths as you have found them, with respect to you and your game. They may not apply to others.

Personally speaking, my own findings, with respect to me and my game, are in disagreement with several of your points.

I'll add I do not believe my findings about my game are terribly relevant to everyone. I have a friend who bounces between a 7 and 10 hdcp, who is not a good iron player. In no way do I think he should even think about trying blades (he's been using Ping G series irons as long as I've known him).



[quote name='T.Beau' timestamp='1414429282' post='10357743']
Here's some thoughts:

-Its much easier to hit the ball on the range, so i think it is best to judge club performance on the course. Especially when considering buying a set of blades

-Golf really doesnt become so mental until someone has a grooved repeating swing. Until that time, it is far more mechanical than mental. Cant will a good pass on the ball if a person does not have the technique to do that

-Blades really arent better to work the ball other than it is easier to hit the ball low. Conversely they are harder to hit high....so its a wash. It is every bit as easy to hit a GI or SGI club left to right or right to left. Its not like blades are curved like hockey sticks. It is also possible to hit a (most) sgi clubs low given good technique to do that. Modern golf balls are harder to hit l to r or r to l..that is mostly the problem and it doesnt matter what kind of iron you are swinging

-Blades are not more accurate than any other iron unless someone is a really really good ball striker. I dont mean a really good ball striker compared to a 90 shooter. There may be a minute advantage laterally but they have far less accuracy for distance control because they are much harder to flush hit than other types of clubs.

- I understand that many choose blades because of some perceived notion of better feel. feel is of course subjective, so no one can dispute something like that. But I contend that blades dont feel so good when miss hit, and that happens a lot more than w. other types of clubs (see above). so one could build a case for saying that blades have horrible feel. I think its more about the quality of the forging than the type of club anyway. i;ve never played anything feeling as sweet as the irons i play....ditto for the j36cbs. interesting (for me) to note that the last time i played blades they werent even forged, and they felt as good as any forged blade i played until that point...even some pros who played these thought they were forged. they were easier to flush hit..why? because the blade was elongated. there isnt any magical fairy dust you can put on a compact head to give a big sweetzone

-Blades do not force a person to better concentrate. Normal people will try and flush hit whatever club they are swinging to the best of their ability. And if someone doesnt have the technique to flush hit a blade, all the concentration in the world aint gonna make a great hit happen, unless by pure luck

I'm just writing all this hoping to save some people some frustration and money if jumping on this blade bandwagon. I think people should buy gear appropriate to their skillset. that seems logical (to me anyway). But as I always say, people can sure play whatever they like for whatever reasons they like....i just dont like to see stuff posted which may misdirect people and frustrate them and waste their money and cause them to play worse golf
-.
[/quote]
[/quote]

It's fine to disagree, but good to disagree with some information countering what i've said. For example I would like for someone to tell me why blades are easier than other clubs to work laterally...something that isnt a perception...a club design reason.

but i suggest to you that i do have experiences which are founded in truth. having given a few thousand tennis lessons over the years i know how people learn, and what role the gear plays in the process. In tennis there are many similarities...relative is that in tennis there are players racquets (blades), game improvement, and super game improvement. I;ve given lessons to people of all ages and gender who use all kinds of gear....far less of them at all levels of play using 'players racquets' (blades)..so i know what the effects are when folks use gear not decently matched to their skillset

as a side note, there are also 'tweener' racquets. those fell in between so called 'players racquets' and 'game improvement'. perhaps 'tweener' would be an appropriate term in golf as well
[/quote]

TBeau the very same science that makes a CB more forgiving is what makes it harder to work. The cavity design serves to dampen spin in all directions. A blade face doesn't flex as much as a cavity so it is easier to work in all directions as much as it is unforgiving. It's that simple.

Have you considered the fact that it may be much easier to engineer tennis racket forgiveness than it is golf club? Irons in particular? Your "truths" as you so boldly claim for learning tennis may not be as applicable to golf. It's clearly not absolute since there are many of us with the real world experience playing CBs and blades/MBs and the difference in difficulty is not nearly as bad as you would lead people to believe.

As a 16 handicap I hit and scored the same with a MB as with a CB. Same thing happened from going down to a 7.5 index. Sorry but what you say about needing to be such a good ball striker to play a MB just isn't true for everybody.

[thug the bunny]

[quote name='T.Beau' timestamp='1414431780' post='10357939']

It's fine to disagree, but good to disagree with some information countering what i've said. For example I would like for someone to tell me why blades are easier than other clubs to work laterally...something that isnt a perception...a club design reason.

but i suggest to you that i do have experiences which are founded in truth. having given a few thousand tennis lessons over the years i know how people learn, and what role the gear plays in the process. In tennis there are many similarities...relative is that in tennis there are players racquets (blades), game improvement, and super game improvement. I;ve given lessons to people of all ages and gender who use all kinds of gear....far less of them at all levels of play using 'players racquets' (blades)..so i know what the effects are when folks use gear not decently matched to their skillset

as a side note, there are also 'tweener' racquets. those fell in between so called 'players racquets' and 'game improvement'. perhaps 'tweener' would be an appropriate term in golf as well
[/quote]

I can disagree with some confirmatory information, but personal not technical information.

FACT: I stopped hooking the crap out of my irons when I switched to blades
FACT: I dropped ~10 strokes over the period of 1 year after switching to blades
FACT: The feel of a good ball strike is much more addictive with blades

I guess I am an outlier.

[DeNinny]

[quote name='thug the bunny' timestamp='1414432938' post='10358067']
[quote name='T.Beau' timestamp='1414431780' post='10357939']

It's fine to disagree, but good to disagree with some information countering what i've said. For example I would like for someone to tell me why blades are easier than other clubs to work laterally...something that isnt a perception...a club design reason.

but i suggest to you that i do have experiences which are founded in truth. having given a few thousand tennis lessons over the years i know how people learn, and what role the gear plays in the process. In tennis there are many similarities...relative is that in tennis there are players racquets (blades), game improvement, and super game improvement. I;ve given lessons to people of all ages and gender who use all kinds of gear....far less of them at all levels of play using 'players racquets' (blades)..so i know what the effects are when folks use gear not decently matched to their skillset

as a side note, there are also 'tweener' racquets. those fell in between so called 'players racquets' and 'game improvement'. perhaps 'tweener' would be an appropriate term in golf as well
[/quote]

I can disagree with some confirmatory information, but personal not technical information.

FACT: I stopped hooking the crap out of my irons when I switched to blades
FACT: I dropped ~10 strokes over the period of 1 year after switching to blades
FACT: The feel of a good ball strike is much more addictive with blades

I guess I am an outlier.
[/quote]

You're not an outlier. It's all based on having the majority of mass behind the ball. It's pure physics that cannot be avoided.

blade = more workable and less forgiving is based on the same science.

[NRJyzr]

[quote name='T.Beau' timestamp='1414431780' post='10357939']
It's fine to disagree, but good to disagree with some information countering what i've said. For example I would like for someone to tell me why blades are easier than other clubs to work laterally...something that isnt a perception...a club design reason.[/quote]

Fair enough.

Speaking only for myself...
-I've found that blades DO help me concentrate more.
-Unless I'm a really really good ballstriker, an appellation I wouldn't necessarily give myself, I've found one doesn't need to be at the pinnacle of the ball striking pyramid to see a benefit.
-I disagree that golf isn't mental without a repeatable swing. Going back to my early days in golf, I've found it easier to hit smaller iron heads than larger iron heads. Some would say it's counter-intuitive, but that's how it's been for me. There's no denying it's a mental aspect.

As for the blades being more accurate, well, there's always the oft-discussed Terry Koehler post about Iron Byron testing. I didn't bring it up because it's been mentioned so often, and because I don't want this to devolve into another one of "those" threads.

Another one not mentioned is the fabled forgiveness of blades vs CBs. Except for the uber-forgiving iron designs (I own Eye2+ and ISI), I've just not seen it. And I've played some sets where I've desperately wanted to see it (Peerless Tour irons being one example), but they haven't worked out for me. Perhaps it's related to the blades I play, a lot of Golden Ram use (which have the rep of being more forgiving than most blades), perhaps it's something else entirely. Maybe it's the Callaway moon dust? LOL


[quote]but i suggest to you that i do have experiences which are founded in truth. [/quote]

I didn't suggest otherwise. Only that your truths may not be applicable across the full spectrum of players, as my truths are also not.

[Hokum]

Love my blades. Freedom to work the ball. I cut 4 off my handicap when changing to blades.

[T.Beau]

Rather than respond directly to others, here is something from Ralph Maltby I just looked up -----> [url="http://www.ralphmaltby.com/99"]http://www.ralphmaltby.com/99[/url]

And an excerpt:

(paste)Throughout the years I have had the good fortune of working with many touring professionals. This is usually the result of getting comments on a new iron or metal wood design prototype before going to production. Just because the iron head is a forged blade or a cast cavity back makes no difference in the various shaped shots that a player hits. I have witnessed this countless times.(end paste)

I guess that is just HIS perception so should be rendered useless according to the forum here. I am failing to understand the purpose of this forum other than it is a reason for people to pontificate THEIR perception and talk about THEIR game, especially since perception is unique to the individual..so it is therefore of little to no value in reading unless another person possesses identical perception to the author of the post

The reality is that working the ball is totally a function of ones technical ability and not the type of iron...hitting blades require more technical ability, so blades are actually harder to work the ball (with the intended result) not easier unless the person is a great ball striker....and a persons knowledge on any subject is of no value either because it is all about perception

[DeNinny]

[quote name='T.Beau' timestamp='1414435935' post='10358293']
Rather than respond directly to others, here is something from Ralph Maltby I just looked up -----> [url="http://www.ralphmaltby.com/99"]http://www.ralphmaltby.com/99[/url]

And an excerpt:

(paste)Throughout the years I have had the good fortune of working with many touring professionals. This is usually the result of getting comments on a new iron or metal wood design prototype before going to production. Just because the iron head is a forged blade or a cast cavity back makes no difference in the various shaped shots that a player hits. I have witnessed this countless times.(end paste)

I guess that is just HIS perception so should be rendered useless according to the forum here. I am failing to understand the purpose of this forum other than it is a reason for people to pontificate THEIR perception and talk about THEIR game, especially since perception is unique to the individual..so it is therefore of little to no value in reading unless another person possesses identical perception to the author of the post

The reality is that working the ball is totally a function of ones technical ability and not the type of iron...hitting blades require more technical ability, so blades are actually harder to work the ball (with the intended result) not easier unless the person is a great ball striker....and a persons knowledge on any subject is of no value either because it is all about perception
[/quote]

LOL nice quote from a guy in the business to sell his forgiving clubs.

Sure anybody can work the ball with any club and observing the pros do it looks like it is all the same.

What's interesting is that he never ASKED those same pros which club type is easier to work. Answer: blade/MB. (Pssst. It's based on the mass directly behind the ball.)

A pure physicist would have more credibility than Maltby who basically is making an ANECDOTAL observation.

[Chuck_22046]

[quote name='T.Beau' timestamp='1414435935' post='10358293']
Rather than respond directly to others, here is something from Ralph Maltby I just looked up -----> [url="http://www.ralphmaltby.com/99"]http://www.ralphmaltby.com/99[/url]

And an excerpt:

(paste)Throughout the years I have had the good fortune of working with many touring professionals. This is usually the result of getting comments on a new iron or metal wood design prototype before going to production. Just because the iron head is a forged blade or a cast cavity back makes no difference in the various shaped shots that a player hits. I have witnessed this countless times.(end paste)

I guess that is just HIS perception so should be rendered useless according to the forum here. I am failing to understand the purpose of this forum other than it is a reason for people to pontificate THEIR perception and talk about THEIR game, especially since perception is unique to the individual..so it is therefore of little to no value in reading unless another person possesses identical perception to the author of the post

The reality is that working the ball is totally a function of ones technical ability and not the type of iron...hitting blades require more technical ability, so blades are actually harder to work the ball (with the intended result) not easier unless the person is a great ball striker....and a persons knowledge on any subject is of no value either because it is all about perception
[/quote]

The cool thing about these forums, is the ability to express your opinion in a civil manner and either agree with...or disagree with the opinions of others. I appreciate what Maltby has to say. But it doesn't work out for me in my own experience. That's all I can say about Maltby.

A second point. As a rule, when you refer to the expressions of people opinions as pontification....how to address this one. Pontification has a negative connotation, as a result of it's very definition: "to speak in a pompous or dogmatic manner". That you would consider the considered opinions of those with whom you disagree as pontification, insinuates that you find no value in those opinions because they are not your own.

You asked for specific responses to your post...and received them. Your response was to denigrate those posts by virtue of a thinly veiled insult. Normally, I don't engage in "calling the baby ugly" in forums, but I do take umbrage with your comment in that regard. I haven't agreed with you, but I also haven't taken a pot shot at you for having that opinion. It's your opinion...go forth and shape shots.

A final point. You were right about one thing. This thread was in fact about people sharing their mutual opinion regarding their enjoyment for playing blades. It was never a debate. Perception is in fact individual. I will defend to the death you right to your perception... But I would respectfully suggest that because people don't agree with what you said, doesn't mean they are high and mighty or in any way shape or form think they are better. Some of us just like blades...for all the very good and even sometimes scientific reasons we have given.

[DeNinny]

The reality is that a blade is easier to work and is less forgiving. Ask anyone who has done extensive side by side, controlled testing and they will tell you the same thing.

You can work a CB/GI club for sure but it will take more effort.

[thug the bunny]

[quote]
I guess that is just HIS perception so should be rendered useless according to the forum here. I am failing to understand the purpose of this forum other than it is a reason for people to pontificate THEIR perception and talk about THEIR game, especially since perception is unique to the individual..so it is therefore of little to no value in reading unless another person possesses identical perception to the author of the post
[/quote]

Ultimately, from both a scientific and philosophical perspective, [i]perception is all there is. [/i]So, if talking about one's perception is useless, well, then I guess we should all just shut up.

[Conrad1953]

[quote name='DeNinny' timestamp='1414436998' post='10358371']
The reality is that a blade is easier to work and is less forgiving. Ask anyone who has done extensive side by side, controlled testing and they will tell you the same thing.

You can work a CB/GI club for sure but it will take more effort.
[/quote]

If you read down a bit Maltby admitted this but called it "slight".
Perhaps that's the feel and not so "slight" to some. As he said
as you move the horizontal COG away from the shaft the club
becomes harder to rotate.

Since an MB horizontal cog is a little left of center then the iron
head is easier to move on a horizontal plane. So he didn't deny
it; he just tried to minimize it. Back to the subjective again and
why some can feel a worked shot and not think about it much
and find it easier with a cog closer to the hosel.......and why
hosel rockets become a danger, lol.

[T.Beau]

also found this which i believe to be of learning benefit ----> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WKbLCV-8cJ4

while he found he could work the ball in a more subtle fashion with a blade, it was easier for him to sidespin the ball to a greater degree with the chunky iron vs the so called 'blade'. i also think he games a less chunky club on the course, so he could very likely make some minor adjustments and learn to work that chunky club with more precision.

this and the maltby thing are the two first things i googled which i thought had credibility. i;m sure there is lots of stuff on the net that would think otherwise (just go this forum). i am satisfied that what i;ve said earlier is true regarding workability of irons, but realize that perceptions vary

sorry i am not precisely politically correct. i dont direct this stuff at anyone in particular...so i would appreciate it if people do not fling insults my way

[Chuck_22046]

[quote name='Conrad1953' timestamp='1414438576' post='10358479']
[quote name='DeNinny' timestamp='1414436998' post='10358371']
The reality is that a blade is easier to work and is less forgiving. Ask anyone who has done extensive side by side, controlled testing and they will tell you the same thing.

You can work a CB/GI club for sure but it will take more effort.
[/quote]

If you read down a bit Maltby admitted this but called it "slight".
Perhaps that's the feel and not so "slight" to some. As he said
as you move the horizontal COG away from the shaft the club
becomes harder to rotate.

Since an MB horizontal cog is a little left of center then the iron
head is easier to move on a horizontal plane. So he didn't deny
it; he just tried to minimize it. Back to the subjective again and
why some can feel a worked shot and not think about it much
and find it easier with a cog closer to the hosel.......and why
hosel rockets become a danger, lol.
[/quote]

There was a great artice on another site that was written by Jeff Sheets. He was I believe responsible for the design of the legendary '99 Hogan Apex. One of the points he made, was that Hogan used the "under slung hosel" design (think the Precisions, Percussion, Power Thrust...and many of his early designs) to move the shaft axis closer to the clubs COG to make it easier to "work the ball". Sheets mentioned, that in "modern" club making, the same effect is achieved by reducing the hosel's MOI (he didn't state how though).

Having attempted to hit those clubs mentioned (i have all of them) with the exception of the Precisions....the Percussion and Power Thrust are both well and truly capable of enabling an epic hosel rocket if you are not careful.

[DeNinny]

[quote name='T.Beau' timestamp='1414438682' post='10358483']
also found this which i believe to be of learning benefit ----> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WKbLCV-8cJ4

while he found he could work the ball in a more subtle fashion with a blade, it was easier for him to sidespin the ball to a greater degree with the chunky iron vs the so called 'blade'. i also think he games a less chunky club on the course, so he could very likely make some minor adjustments and learn to work that chunky club with more precision.

this and the maltby thing are the two first things i googled which i thought had credibility. i;m sure there is lots of stuff on the net that would think otherwise (just go this forum). i am satisfied that what i;ve said earlier is true regarding workability of irons, but realize that perceptions vary

sorry i am not precisely politically correct. i dont direct this stuff at anyone in particular...so i would appreciate it if people do not fling insults my way
[/quote]

Anybody in the industry for business and profit is going to have subjective credibility. It's very hard to remain objective and unbiased when you have a biased motivation. It's why the NIST (National Institute of Standards and Technology) exists. The industry doesn't get to decide how to measure something. It's left to an independent party.

Unfortunately with golf being recreational there's no need for such an institute. End result is marketing based physics that deludes the golfer.

[T.Beau]

[quote name='DeNinny' timestamp='1414439901' post='10358591']
[quote name='T.Beau' timestamp='1414438682' post='10358483']
also found this which i believe to be of learning benefit ----> [url="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WKbLCV-8cJ4"]https://www.youtube....h?v=WKbLCV-8cJ4[/url]

while he found he could work the ball in a more subtle fashion with a blade, it was easier for him to sidespin the ball to a greater degree with the chunky iron vs the so called 'blade'. i also think he games a less chunky club on the course, so he could very likely make some minor adjustments and learn to work that chunky club with more precision.

this and the maltby thing are the two first things i googled which i thought had credibility. i;m sure there is lots of stuff on the net that would think otherwise (just go this forum). i am satisfied that what i;ve said earlier is true regarding workability of irons, but realize that perceptions vary

sorry i am not precisely politically correct. i dont direct this stuff at anyone in particular...so i would appreciate it if people do not fling insults my way
[/quote]

Anybody in the industry for business and profit is going to have subjective credibility. It's very hard to remain objective and unbiased when you have a biased motivation. It's why the NIST (National Institute of Standards and Technology) exists. The industry doesn't get to decide how to measure something. It's left to an independent party.

Unfortunately with golf being recreational there's no need for such an institute. End result is marketing based physics that deludes the golfer.
[/quote]

I thought he was objective. I think Crossfield favours Mizuno irons..he was using Nike irons in this review and was being open to being objective and a myth buster regarding the workability of various irons. his video had purpose and credibility and objectivity , relevance, and accuracy. i dont know what his other motivations would be. the objectivity was in the trackman data he was spitting out and he has a good reliably repeating swing . But then again, i guess that was only his perception, so would not apply to the masses. the reality is that there are truths about clubs and racquets...and myths. what is important is to consider the source of your information

[DeNinny]

[quote name='Conrad1953' timestamp='1414438576' post='10358479']
[quote name='DeNinny' timestamp='1414436998' post='10358371']
The reality is that a blade is easier to work and is less forgiving. Ask anyone who has done extensive side by side, controlled testing and they will tell you the same thing.

You can work a CB/GI club for sure but it will take more effort.
[/quote]

If you read down a bit Maltby admitted this but called it "slight".
Perhaps that's the feel and not so "slight" to some. As he said
as you move the horizontal COG away from the shaft the club
becomes harder to rotate.

Since an MB horizontal cog is a little left of center then the iron
head is easier to move on a horizontal plane. So he didn't deny
it; he just tried to minimize it. Back to the subjective again and
why some can feel a worked shot and not think about it much
and find it easier with a cog closer to the hosel.......and why
hosel rockets become a danger, lol.
[/quote]

In my experience all the feel, workability, and forgiveness are all "slight" but noticeable. You can tell the differences are there, but none of them amount to a measurable score impact. There's simply a gradual, inverse related, progression between forgiveness and workability across the iron spectrum. It's all based on the mass distribution behind the ball and it's not like there is a cliff you hit with a blade. The cliff is just more fear mongering and marketing to get people to follow the prescribed path of using an iron type to tell you how good you are.

[Chuck_22046]

This wasn't a debate....

Just sharing our opinions with others...nobody needs to be convinced who is right. There IS no right...it's just what feels best to the individual.

[T.Beau]

[quote name='thug the bunny' timestamp='1414438380' post='10358469']
[quote]
I guess that is just HIS perception so should be rendered useless according to the forum here. I am failing to understand the purpose of this forum other than it is a reason for people to pontificate THEIR perception and talk about THEIR game, especially since perception is unique to the individual..so it is therefore of little to no value in reading unless another person possesses identical perception to the author of the post
[/quote]

Ultimately, from both a scientific and philosophical perspective, [i]perception is all there is. [/i]So, if talking about one's perception is useless, well, then I guess we should all just shut up.
[/quote]

I think that in large part is a good idea. Something I think I would like to do. I wish there were more people like Tom Wishon contributing around here and that he would contribute more often. Because some people know more about golf than others, and folks can learn from people like him. I also think it is possible to be objective about things. a good reviewer can comment on gear..what it is good at, and what it isnt (with exceptions of course)....if that wasnt the case, there would be no need for reviewers...surely people understand that some reviewers are better than others
So I would like to excuse myself from this thread and apologize if anything is directed at me that i dont respond to...i'm not revisting this thread...i think this topic has gone full circle multiple times.

[DeNinny]

[quote name='T.Beau' timestamp='1414441618' post='10358693']
[quote name='thug the bunny' timestamp='1414438380' post='10358469']
[quote]
I guess that is just HIS perception so should be rendered useless according to the forum here. I am failing to understand the purpose of this forum other than it is a reason for people to pontificate THEIR perception and talk about THEIR game, especially since perception is unique to the individual..so it is therefore of little to no value in reading unless another person possesses identical perception to the author of the post
[/quote]

Ultimately, from both a scientific and philosophical perspective, [i]perception is all there is. [/i]So, if talking about one's perception is useless, well, then I guess we should all just shut up.
[/quote]

I think that in large part is a good idea. Something I think I would like to do. I wish there were more people like Tom Wishon contributing around here and that he would contribute more often. Because some people know more about golf than others, and folks can learn from people like him. I also think it is possible to be objective about things. a good reviewer can comment on gear..what it is good at, and what it isnt (with exceptions of course)....if that wasnt the case, there would be no need for reviewers...surely people understand that some reviewers are better than others
So I would like to excuse myself from this thread and apologize if anything is directed at me that i dont respond to...i'm not revisting this thread...i think this topic has gone full circle multiple times.
[/quote]

LOL Tom Wishon is another industry biased individual. The science and physics is completely understandable without needing to be in the golf business. The best reviewers are independent entities with no ties to the reviewed product. I'll respect the views of folks that have extensive personal experience trying different iron types over anybody in the industry any day. It's precisely why I'm a member here.

[Bigmean]

[quote name='T.Beau' timestamp='1414431780' post='10357939']
[quote name='NRJyzr' timestamp='1414430101' post='10357805']
I mean no offense at this, but I would submit these are truths as you have found them, with respect to you and your game. They may not apply to others.

Personally speaking, my own findings, with respect to me and my game, are in disagreement with several of your points.

I'll add I do not believe my findings about my game are terribly relevant to everyone. I have a friend who bounces between a 7 and 10 hdcp, who is not a good iron player. In no way do I think he should even think about trying blades (he's been using Ping G series irons as long as I've known him).



[quote name='T.Beau' timestamp='1414429282' post='10357743']
Here's some thoughts:

-Its much easier to hit the ball on the range, so i think it is best to judge club performance on the course. Especially when considering buying a set of blades

-Golf really doesnt become so mental until someone has a grooved repeating swing. Until that time, it is far more mechanical than mental. Cant will a good pass on the ball if a person does not have the technique to do that

-Blades really arent better to work the ball other than it is easier to hit the ball low. Conversely they are harder to hit high....so its a wash. It is every bit as easy to hit a GI or SGI club left to right or right to left. Its not like blades are curved like hockey sticks. It is also possible to hit a (most) sgi clubs low given good technique to do that. Modern golf balls are harder to hit l to r or r to l..that is mostly the problem and it doesnt matter what kind of iron you are swinging

-Blades are not more accurate than any other iron unless someone is a really really good ball striker. I dont mean a really good ball striker compared to a 90 shooter. There may be a minute advantage laterally but they have far less accuracy for distance control because they are much harder to flush hit than other types of clubs.

- I understand that many choose blades because of some perceived notion of better feel. feel is of course subjective, so no one can dispute something like that. But I contend that blades dont feel so good when miss hit, and that happens a lot more than w. other types of clubs (see above). so one could build a case for saying that blades have horrible feel. I think its more about the quality of the forging than the type of club anyway. i;ve never played anything feeling as sweet as the irons i play....ditto for the j36cbs. interesting (for me) to note that the last time i played blades they werent even forged, and they felt as good as any forged blade i played until that point...even some pros who played these thought they were forged. they were easier to flush hit..why? because the blade was elongated. there isnt any magical fairy dust you can put on a compact head to give a big sweetzone

-Blades do not force a person to better concentrate. Normal people will try and flush hit whatever club they are swinging to the best of their ability. And if someone doesnt have the technique to flush hit a blade, all the concentration in the world aint gonna make a great hit happen, unless by pure luck

I'm just writing all this hoping to save some people some frustration and money if jumping on this blade bandwagon. I think people should buy gear appropriate to their skillset. that seems logical (to me anyway). But as I always say, people can sure play whatever they like for whatever reasons they like....i just dont like to see stuff posted which may misdirect people and frustrate them and waste their money and cause them to play worse golf
-.
[/quote]
[/quote]

It's fine to disagree, but good to disagree with some information countering what i've said. For example I would like for someone to tell me why blades are easier than other clubs to work laterally...something that isnt a perception...a club design reason.

but i suggest to you that i do have experiences which are founded in truth. having given a few thousand tennis lessons over the years i know how people learn, and what role the gear plays in the process. In tennis there are many similarities...relative is that in tennis there are players racquets (blades), game improvement, and super game improvement. I;ve given lessons to people of all ages and gender who use all kinds of gear....far less of them at all levels of play using 'players racquets' (blades)..so i know what the effects are when folks use gear not decently matched to their skillset

as a side note, there are also 'tweener' racquets. those fell in between so called 'players racquets' and 'game improvement'. perhaps 'tweener' would be an appropriate term in golf as well
[/quote]

My disagreements with points, with actual reasons....

1. I hate the range for the most part (ADHD) I hit better shots when I am on the course and forced to commit, not when I have 100 balls and no incentive to do anything other than whack them all out there.

2. Everything is relative, and EVERYONE suffers from or feeds off of mental game. Whether it is Tiger in his prime winning a major before teeing off on a Sunday, or Joe six pack with no "grooved swing that "loves" his sandwedge or fairway wood and because of that is more likely to put a better swing on that club more than the 9 iron in his bag. My buddy is a 90s golfer, he "loves his six iron, he hits it well alot. It is a 6 iron, it should be harder for him than a 7 iron, but he has made some shots with it he remembers and he hits it better than his 8, defying physics and proving mental game applies to us all.

3. There is alot to disagree with here, but lets just say that flight hieght is also working the ball. Lets also say that offset and sole grind and turf interaction play a part that is quite large before we even get to the scientific fact that perimeter weighting absolutly detracts from workability compared to a blade.

4. Ummm, blades are definitely more accurate heads, especially distance control consistency.

5. Feel is not percieved. There is a case of debate in the JDM section where people agree to disagree on Miura feel vs. Kyoei forged feel (Vegas etc) and that is subjective to ones preferences, but FEEDBACK, not feel on good shots, is indisputable in its translation. I consider myself to be a feel player and havea good feel for shots. I know when I hook a ball before it starts to turn etc. I have a difficult time determining what is going to happen when I hit GI clubs and I consider myself to be more in tune than many. It is annoying to think something was OK and it wasn't or visa versa. The argument of feeling worse on mishits id bad logic because it is saying that you want to do something the wrong way and be rewarded for it not in performance, but by "feeling" better about a bad play. This would be like if an NFL QB threw a bunch of bad passes, but the defense always dropped the ball rather than intercepting them. At the end of the day, he still played bad and didn't have good completions. So what GI clubs do in turn, and is my main argument against them being truly game improvement, is not tell you directly that what you did was bad, so you become more comfortable doing bad things over and over and "groove" a swing of bad habits. True game improvement would be learning to strike the ball well with a correct path and clubface angle. Let not confuse helpful feedback with a nicer or more pleasing feel on well struck shots. Blades offer both of these in spades over GI clubs anyway.

I am not good golfer. I am obviously better than many, but worse than many as well. When I go out and shoot 85, it is not because I played blades, it is because I played bad, because I missed putts, hit drives in trouble, missed greens, the whole deal. All things being relative across all handicaps and that truth applies to ALL golfers for ALL their clubs. If you believe that, and not marketing hype, then you get to the root of the game, which is what happens in the impact zone. Improve that and you improve your scores. Masking problems there has no long term benefits.

[Chuck_22046]

Funny you mention the 6 iron. I have a friend, who would not by his own definition call himself a golfer. He owns a set of some Wilson clubs, with a graphite regular shaft. Every month or so he calls and asks me to go to Top Golf with him. He hasn't got a shot in his bag...but by God he can knock the crap out of his 4 iron. Absolutely defies all logic....but he can poke that thing like nobody else.

The best part? He has a ball doing it... It's in his head he can hit that club, and that's the end of it. The mental side of things just can't be discounted!