Some ideas about the trail arm straightening

[wmblake2000]

[quote name='iteachgolf' timestamp='1420052811' post='10666379']
Russ the downswing takes 2-3 tenth a of a second. Faster than human reaction time. To get it to straighten more by impact it the intent must be there before you start down.
[/quote]

I think this is a key point. I am sure some people have much more body awareness than me and can do stuff I can't imagine. But I lose the capacity to introduce a new intent (eg., one that I have not already preprogrammed) at about the point I complete the backswing. So I get to the top fully intending to (in the way I think about it) 'shallow and then swing my right hand as fast as I can to past impact' - this is how I think 'straighten the trail arm.' (and this 'shallowing then swing' happens so fast I have to focus solely on my right hand to do both because there isn't enough time for me to shift my focus) I experience the downswing as way too fast to do much more than notice/feel things unconsciously. There is essentially NO cognitive processing going on, no new commands to my body, etc.

So if I were to try to introduce a new move, 'straighten the right arm' at, say 1/3 down.... I guess I could do it if it were preprogrammed, but wow the timing would be ridiculous and I am 100% sure this would be very inconsistent, at least for me.

[russc1597187869]

[quote name='Silky' timestamp='1420050667' post='10666191']
Russc,

Do you have similar chart for the angle of the upper trail arm wrt to the pivot or spine?
For me, the action of "straightening the trail arm" is similar to hammering action. You move the whole trail arm down before releasing the angle at the elbow of the trail arm.
[/quote]
No ,I will try to find one.
I imagine that movement would probably be somewhat similar in a hammering action but simpler.Simpler because there is very little external or internal rotation of the shoulder and simpler because there is little rotational or lateral movement of the torso nor bending of the spine that is happening in concert with any arm movements . Movement of the upper arm would also be happening on a different plane than in a golf swing .
I am a strong believer in biomechanical modeling as a way to understand the golf swing and feel that it the way of the future in golf tennis,baseball and other sports instruction,But it is pretty obvious the current models are too simple to accurately represent the golf swing.But technology has improved and will continue to improve .

[PingG10guy]

Oh russc...happy new year. Im still waiting on Geoff to wake up so my lesson can begin. Been here 2 whole days

[ALIF]

[quote name='PingG10guy' timestamp='1420081179' post='10668461']
Oh russc...happy new year. Im still waiting on Geoff to wake up so my lesson can begin. Been here 2 whole days
[/quote]

Sounds familiar. Lol. BTW, get a hotel!

[russc1597187869]

[quote name='PingG10guy' timestamp='1420081179' post='10668461']
Oh russc...happy new year. Im still waiting on Geoff to wake up so my lesson can begin. Been here 2 whole days
[/quote]
PingG10guy
Happy new year to you

[florida77]

[quote name='comrade1' timestamp='1420141329' post='10670821']
I was a carpenter for 16 years and when I read your post I imagined swinging my hammer to drive a nail(something I did hundreds of thousands of times).The right arm is absolutely straightening ASAP,NO questions asked.I actually got a chuckle thinking what it would look like if I kept the elbow bent.If I made a video of that action,it would be comical to say the least.I would lose all speed and control,at the same time look completely contorted!


Gray,

When you were pounding those nails did you make a full pivot of your body on each strike ? say like a 45* hip and 90* shoulder turn ?
[/quote]


That's the point of the whole thing my dear #1 Comrade! When you strike a ball are you just pivoting and are you trying to make 10001 Micro Moves in QUARTER OF A SECOND? When you throw a ball are you trying to make all those thousands of little motions that might be seen in a slow motion video, I seriously doubt it!

The teaching pendulum has swung over waaay to far in the wrong direction.... no wonder people are messed up concerning the golf swing?

So many conflicting ideas...sooo many,....conflicting!

The human brain doesn't dissect a fluid motion into a thousand pieces and then try to put it all back together. We don't view things that way and learning that way is a long hard road filled with futility. The proof is in the results over hundreds of years of golf instruction ...we still suck and we are still searching.


Maybe just maybe we got it all wrong?

[bph7]

Cary, how did you get a four year old screen name?

[bph7]

[quote name='comrade1' timestamp='1420153584' post='10671591']
[quote name='bph7' timestamp='1420152956' post='10671559']
Cary, how did you get a four year old screen name?
[/quote]

I'm not sure who you're referring to? My name is Cool Breeze

So, what are the VOLUNTARY moves? If we could identify these, we could stop arguing, right?
[/quote]

If you aren't cary, then why'd you even respond to my post? Shouldn't you have just had no idea which poster I was referring to when I said Cary?

[bph7]

[quote name='comrade1' timestamp='1420155199' post='10671693']
I asked a question and you were the next post. I thought you were referring to me
[/quote]

Methinks the comrade doth protest too much...

[Michael C.]

I've done a lot of carpentry work and I only had one unofficial lesson on how to drive a nail. My dad told me the point was to drive the nail home not see how many times I could hit it. That was 40 years ago and I've driven a ton of nails since then and never thought about my pivot or my right arm straightening.

My dad doesn't play golf but used to caddy when he was a kid. Maybe he should teach golf....

[PingG10guy]

[quote name='bph7' timestamp='1420152956' post='10671559']
Cary, how did you get a four year old screen name?
[/quote]

Lol best part is that he was a carpenter for 16 years. So when he has a hammer all he sees is nails

[Grayback1973]

[quote name='comrade1' timestamp='1420141329' post='10670821']I was a carpenter for 16 years and when I read your post I imagined swinging my hammer to drive a nail(something I did hundreds of thousands of times).The right arm is absolutely straightening ASAP,NO questions asked.I actually got a chuckle thinking what it would look like if I kept the elbow bent.If I made a video of that action,it would be comical to say the least.I would lose all speed and control,at the same time look completely contorted!


Gray,

When you were pounding those nails did you make a full pivot of your body on each strike ? say like a 45* hip and 90* shoulder turn ?[/quote]Believe it or not,when you are in a situation where the nail is down and to the side,your body has to get involved.There is a slight pivot and shoulder turn.However,the body is reacting to what the arms are doing.There is never conscious thought about the action other than bracing yourself.
I just appreciated Florida's post overall because I felt that he made some great points.I mean seriously dude,how in the world can a person manage,think about,manipulate,control or change things that are happening in fractions of a second with violent speeds and motions?

There just has to be simpler and more effective ways of changing a motion that happens so quickly that it is not possible to consciously comprehend anything that is actually happening in that time.

[eightiron]

For those watching.

 

The hips move the shortest distance and the slowest on the backswing. The shoulders move faster, arms faster than shoulders and club the fastest. The shoulders are moving nearly twice the distance and twice the speed as the hips. So guess what? They have more momentum to overcome in transition to change direction. So as a result of momentum the hips start down first, because it's the easiest for them to do so, then the shoulders, arms and club. But almost immediately the shoulders, arms, and club not only catch up but begin moving exponentially faster than the hips.

 

The first move down will be the hips and club will be last. The key is understanding is why. And it's because of momentum and the hips have the least resistance. Everyone's hips fire first. Have yet to see anyone's who doesn't.

 

 

Almost forgot. Here you go Mikah

 

 

save the shovel for Iteach.

the rim of the wheel travels a longer distance than the hub(circumference is larger), but we measure speed by RPM.

the rim travels a greater distance, but rpm is the same as the hub.

 

He's inventing 'iteach, golf science' whole new vocabulary, to say what is basic grade school science.

 

How are we going with this one , have you managed to measure the RPM of the wheel in the golf swing? Does anything such as hands to elbow to shoulder actually make a revolution at all around each other ?

[coldmark]

If I try to straighten my right arm early and quickly, what prevents if from being straight at impact? Is this just one of those things you need to trust and not worry about?

[TB07]

[quote name='Grayback1973' timestamp='1429927971' post='11437049']
For me now,it's not if the right arm straightens asap from the top,it's how it straightens.That's what I needed to go and see DC about.Many people will misinterpret the concept of right arm straightening.
If it straightens the correct way,the pivot is forced to do the "around" work.

I would also add that if right arm is straightening correctly,both arms will still be rotated open at hip high.
[/quote]

Do you mean rotated clockwise so that face is more open?

[FatReed]

With regard to PROPER right arm straightening and common tendency to get steep (loss of forearm range of motion to early), you may find the following video of interest?

The video does not specifically address right arm straightening, but certainly addresses a common reason for shaft steepening from loss of forearm range of motion (early re-rotation) and commonly associated OTT move.

http://youtu.be/SkkSlsZhyFA

With regard to HOW to properly straighten the right arm, this does seem to represent a major source of confusion and difficulty for those trying to take advantage of Dan's expertise. Dan has been clear in stating the intent starts asap from the top. He has also been clear in stating the 'why' to do it: if the right arm does not straighten, the right shoulder will stall to allow for 'catch-up' . . . unless you are the likes of Cary Middlecoff.

The confusion, as I interpret it, stems from the directional intent . . . in vector terms, the direction the force (extension) is to be applied. Is one's intent to be directed as right arm extension straight down and back, parallel to target line; straight down and out to ball (perpendicular to target line); or otherwise???

As has already been alluded to, there also needs to be a keen awareness of forearm action. If one extends AND re-rotates forearms, it is easy to see how/why so many golfers get OTT/steep from the top.

So, right arm extension in and of itself is an easy concept to grasp. . . however, proper execution in the golf swing is not. Hence, the reason why MOST are not going to successfully take Dan's sound advice to the range/course after reading well intended forum posts. Nothing can replace a form direct (in person/video) interaction with Dan or similar teaching professional.

[Coat Jones]

Just remember there is a difference between the arm and forearm.

Straightening the arm is a simple concept to understand because the arm, as an entire unit, basically opens and closes, or folds and unfolds, by way of a very predictable elbow, just like hammering. The more important function comes from the [i]forearm[/i] AND ITS ability to rotate to either side of its natural hanging axis- which would be either CW or CCW rotation- while, and in conjunction with, the arm opening and closing.

[Tapio Santala]

[quote name='Grayback1973' timestamp='1429969673' post='11439015']
[quote name='TB07' timestamp='1429965821' post='11438697'][quote name='Grayback1973' timestamp='1429927971' post='11437049']
For me now,it's not if the right arm straightens asap from the top,it's how it straightens.That's what I needed to go and see DC about.Many people will misinterpret the concept of right arm straightening.
If it straightens the correct way,the pivot is forced to do the "around" work.

I would also add that if right arm is straightening correctly,both arms will still be rotated open at hip high.
[/quote]

Do you mean rotated clockwise so that face is more open?[/quote]Yes,that is exactly what I mean.My arms would always rerotate(counterclockwise)way too soon coming down which is why my shaft would get steep.
[/quote]

Grayback... you are totally on the right track! Nice to see people has more and more found the light

[wmblake2000]

The thing that confuses me about this r arm straightening is it ends up feeling like I have lost leverage or whatever generates speed through impact. I am guessing this means my pivot has stalled, but I am at a loss to see how to make this work. Somehow the idea appeals to me because it seems to connect with my intent to get the r shoulder more 'ott,' keep it higher and rotating toward the target rather than dipping. But something is not clicking....

[TB07]

[quote name='wmblake2000' timestamp='1429975066' post='11439469']
The thing that confuses me about this r arm straightening is it ends up feeling like I have lost leverage or whatever generates speed through impact. I am guessing this means my pivot has stalled, but I am at a loss to see how to make this work. Somehow the idea appeals to me because it seems to connect with my intent to get the r shoulder more 'ott,' keep it higher and rotating toward the target rather than dipping. But something is not clicking....
[/quote]
It's not being done correctly. Maybe not getting forward as it straightens.

[wmblake2000]

I think it exposes a second flaw that is invisible to me. Getting arms more forward (less stuck)/shaft shallower is the core issue I am trying to improve.

[Grayback1973]

Post erased

[MMB1500]

Here's a good angle of Sergio straightening the right arm. Starts at 9 seconds.

[media=]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZUxBfGZMRoM[/media]

Great thread BTW. There's some fantastic information in here, from iTeach in particular.

[Tapio Santala]

[quote name='WolfWRX' timestamp='1429982835' post='11440165']
Here's a good angle of Sergio straightening the right arm. Starts at 9 seconds.


Great thread BTW. There's some fantastic information in here, from iTeach in particular.
[/quote]

I know his father and what he teach. He tells everyone to try to keep trail elbow bent through impact. He also knows how hard it is to achieve

[wmblake2000]

[quote name='Grayback1973' timestamp='1430003189' post='11441717']
[quote name='wmblake2000' timestamp='1429975066' post='11439469']The thing that confuses me about this r arm straightening is it ends up feeling like I have lost leverage or whatever generates speed through impact. I am guessing this means my pivot has stalled, but I am at a loss to see how to make this work. Somehow the idea appeals to me because it seems to connect with my intent to get the r shoulder more 'ott,' keep it higher and rotating toward the target rather than dipping. But something is not clicking....[/quote]Blake,go to you tube and look for a video called "Hogan's Down Move" by myswing evolution.At 0.53 Christo is straightening his right arm without rotating closed.It is a very awkward motion and seems impossible.That is the arm straightening motion that is being talked about here.
[/quote]

Thanks. You're right. I never tried that. I am charging the camera batteries right now to try it out this afternoon. Thx.

[mikah]

[b]wmblake2000, on 25 April 2015 - 11:17 AM, said:[/b]
The thing that confuses me about this r arm straightening is it ends up feeling like I have lost leverage or whatever generates speed through impact. I am guessing this means my pivot has stalled, but I am at a loss to see how to make this work. Somehow the idea appeals to me because it seems to connect with my intent to get the r shoulder more 'ott,' keep it higher and rotating toward the target rather than dipping. But something is not clicking....


Wmblake2000,


What generates speed through impact can be right arm straightening or forearm rotation(hitting with the hands)

Or speed through impact can be by angular momentum, from leverage(LAG).

If you choose right arm straightening, you loose the leverage of LAG. Its your choice.

[iteachgolf]

[quote name='mikah' timestamp='1430009201' post='11442269']
[b]wmblake2000, on 25 April 2015 - 11:17 AM, said:[/b]
The thing that confuses me about this r arm straightening is it ends up feeling like I have lost leverage or whatever generates speed through impact. I am guessing this means my pivot has stalled, but I am at a loss to see how to make this work. Somehow the idea appeals to me because it seems to connect with my intent to get the r shoulder more 'ott,' keep it higher and rotating toward the target rather than dipping. But something is not clicking....


Wmblake2000,


What generates speed through impact can be right arm straightening or forearm rotation(hitting with the hands)

Or speed through impact can be by angular momentum, from leverage(LAG).

If you choose right arm straightening, you loose the leverage of LAG. Its your choice.
[/quote]

Sergio and Charles Howell would prove otherwise

[Coat Jones]

[i][b]What generates speed through impact can be right arm straightening or forearm rotation...[/b][/i]

Nope, these can be mutually inclusive.

[i][b]If you choose right arm straightening, you loose the leverage of LAG. [/b][/i]

Nope again, maybe you would but good ballstrikers wouldn't.

[wmblake2000]

[quote name='iteachgolf' timestamp='1430010058' post='11442357']
[quote name='mikah' timestamp='1430009201' post='11442269']
[b]wmblake2000, on 25 April 2015 - 11:17 AM, said:[/b]
The thing that confuses me about this r arm straightening is it ends up feeling like I have lost leverage or whatever generates speed through impact. I am guessing this means my pivot has stalled, but I am at a loss to see how to make this work. Somehow the idea appeals to me because it seems to connect with my intent to get the r shoulder more 'ott,' keep it higher and rotating toward the target rather than dipping. But something is not clicking....


Wmblake2000,


What generates speed through impact can be right arm straightening or forearm rotation(hitting with the hands)

Or speed through impact can be by angular momentum, from leverage(LAG).

If you choose right arm straightening, you loose the leverage of LAG. Its your choice.
[/quote]

Sergio and Charles Howell would prove otherwise
[/quote]

Dan, would you comment on speed with this move? Thing change with it for me. I can't (yet, anyway) 'hit it with my right hand, for example. I think it's a solid idea that plays right into what I am trying to work on. Mainly it makes me move the right shoulder better (or I'll hit it fat). And that's part of the speed equation. I am not concerned about losing lag. I *think* this adds a lot of pieces together and takes an overall solid motion for it to work.

[iteachgolf]

It adds speed. Gray picked up 1-2 clubs in distance. Right arm must straighten for speed to be transferred to the arms then club. If right arm doesn't straighten you'd have no speed