UK Classic Club Thread - John Letters, Ben Sayers, Slazenger, Dunlop, George Nicoll, Swilken, Petron

[FloggingOkie]

6 hours ago, Foozle said:

I echo what brother @Jiggeredsays. We look on with envy at you guys across the pond who seem to wander in Goodwill's and find yourself knee deep in classic MacGregor woods at $2 a piece! I am sure it's not quite like that but certainly more opportunities to score classic gear than here in ths UK.

If you are looking for iconic UK that is pretty scarce State side, my first go to would be John Letters Masters Model. The Fred Daly version from 1948 on was the dominant set at that time; 75% of the Open field playing them in 1948 and virtually all the Ryder Cup team in 1949. 

They remain relatively abundant and affordable.

Looking for something more modern then I agree that Ben Sayers Mentor from the '80's are a great option.

If you don't want to over load your luggage on the return trip then how about a John Letters Golden Goose putter? These pre date the Reuters Bullseye so are "the" original of this design. 

The UK did also have some top notch persimmon club makers so anything by Harry Busson, Peter Broadbent or Paul Gibson would be a great pick up.

Happy hunting, let us know how you get on.

Great info! I looked at a few charity shops while there last year. Didn't see anything then but this trip we plan to hit some car boot sales ect. Last time we didn't coordinate things well. Really expected to come across resale/2nd hand shops a lot easier. My cousin said covid really put a hit those places. Love persimmon and laminates that's what I carry in my bag. Literally swimming in all this stuff. Been clearing out a bit lately, too much stuff I don't play due to wrong length or flex.

[FloggingOkie]

19 hours ago, FloggingOkie said:

Great info! I looked at a few charity shops while there last year. Didn't see anything then but this trip we plan to hit some car boot sales ect. Last time we didn't coordinate things well. Really expected to come across resale/2nd hand shops a lot easier. My cousin said covid really put a hit those places. Love persimmon and laminates that's what I carry in my bag. Literally swimming in all this stuff. Been clearing out a bit lately, too much stuff I don't play due to wrong length or flex

Was going to try FB marketplace for various things I collect so that may work. Are there any go to places people use to meet up there? Like here folks use Starbucks ect since they're everywhere and always busy. Or do they just ship stuff? Was looking at a few old watches last time but its a little overwhelming to plan a meet-up around london so I didn't try it. Anyone done market place there? Any input would be appreciated.

[bcstones]

Hopefully this is the correct place for this: Standard Golf Co Sunderland, hickory shafted...Braid-Mills Model 1915 upright lie 10oz 2drs & 34" long.

Standard Golf Co made a lot of aluminum club heads, around 1890s -1920s. Also they put, on the sole of the club - the lie, weight & loft. I came across Model 1915 on any number of clubs that had various lies and lofts. Not sure about what the "Braid-Mills" come from - it was on some clubs in my search, but mostly the soles said "Mills"

This club seems to be a putter Iupright lie) w/2* loft & weighed 10 oz (must be the head alone?)

Standard Golf Co had been working with aluminum golf club heads in the 1890s. Turns out that owner of Standard Golf, Willaim Mills, was famous in WWI for making the Mills bombs..

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited September 26, 2023 by bcstones

[The Aspidistra in the Hall]

12 hours ago, bcstones said:

Hopefully this is the correct place for this: Standard Golf Co Sunderland, hickory shafted...Braid-Mills Model 1915 upright lie 10oz 2drs & 34" long.

Standard Golf Co made a lot of aluminum club heads, around 1890s -1920s. Also they put, on the sole of the club - the lie, weight & loft. I came across Model 1915 on any number of clubs that had various lies and lofts. Not sure about what the "Braid-Mills" come from - it was on some clubs in my search, but mostly the soles said "Mills"

This club seems to be a putter Iupright lie) w/2* loft & weighed 10 oz (must be the head alone?)

Standard Golf Co had been working with aluminum golf club heads in the 1890s. Turns out that owner of Standard Golf, Willaim Mills, was famous in WWI for making the Mills bombs..

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Think 'James Braid who played similar and promoted the club.

Most popular of all was the 'New Ray Mills' celebrating Ted Ray, I use one extensively.

[bcstones]

5 hours ago, The Aspidistra in the Hall said:

Think 'James Braid who played similar and promoted the club.

Most popular of all was the 'New Ray Mills' celebrating Ted Ray, I use one extensively.

Thank you for mentioning James Braid....went searching & came across this:
https://www.thebraidsociety.com/james-braid/

[The Aspidistra in the Hall]

4 hours ago, bcstones said:

Thank you for mentioning James Braid....went searching & came across this:
https://www.thebraidsociety.com/james-braid/

Mills putters, and there were dozens of variants, all good players and collectable, make for an interesting 'rabbit hole' to go down.

 

I've had most of them at one time or another. I have two that I game, the New Ray Mills, which I've used since 1995 and more recently one of the early long nose models from 1895 or so, a Model YS. It has 'Alexa' engraved on the shaft and looks very like the one seen in early photos of Alexa Stirling.....who knows/

[TheDeanAbides]

On 9/22/2023 at 10:27 AM, Jiggered said:

 

The first thing I'd say is that you won't find anything on a par with the best that Wilson, MacGregor, Spalding or Hogan for instance made. Clubs from the UK will not be to the same standard as the best from America, it saddens me to say as much but it's true.

 

Your second difficulty will be finding the clubs, there aren't such things as Goodwill or Thrift stores here and used club dealers will stop at about the year 2000. So your best bet is to use on-line sites such as ebay and search for sales in your area where you can collect the items from the seller.

 

From my own experience the following might be worth a try and should be fairly easy to find.

Dunlop Maxfli Australian Blade

Ben Sayers Mentor

John Letters Gary Player Mk 1, 2 or 3

John Letters Master Model Forged

Slazenger Bobby Locke (any model)

Do you consider the Slazenger Hogan’s British or American? I ask because AFAIK they’re slightly smaller than the American ones, stamped slightly differently, and they’re SS forging. 

[The Aspidistra in the Hall]

48 minutes ago, TheDeanAbides said:

Do you consider the Slazenger Hogan’s British or American? I ask because AFAIK they’re slightly smaller than the American ones, stamped slightly differently, and they’re SS forging. 

I believe Britsh, the SS appears to be unknown across the pond.

[TheDeanAbides]

40 minutes ago, The Aspidistra in the Hall said:

I believe Britsh, the SS appears to be unknown across the pond.

I agree. The ones that I’ve used feel like essentially different clubs. The persimmons, however, seem identical in all but name. 

[Jiggered]

2 hours ago, TheDeanAbides said:

Do you consider the Slazenger Hogan’s British or American? I ask because AFAIK they’re slightly smaller than the American ones, stamped slightly differently, and they’re SS forging. 

 

American design but definitely made in Britain, quite a number of them are castings, possibly all.

I haven't played actual Hogan irons but the Slazenger versions certainly play very nicely.

[bcstones]

1 hour ago, The Aspidistra in the Hall said:

I believe Britsh, the SS appears to be unknown across the pond.

I agree about the Slazenger Hogans, being of UK origin....however, I kinda sorta disagree about "SS appears to be unknown across the pond" remark...I think that quite a number of makers, especially in the '70s, made SS clubs. Spalding Executive ('77 into the mid '80s) were SS, so was the Hogan Producer, MacGregor MG Lite....I even have a Spalding Robert T Jones Jr set of irons that are marked 'stainless steel' (either from the '50s or '60s - TT shafts & leather grips)....
Just saying...

[The Aspidistra in the Hall]

28 minutes ago, bcstones said:

I agree about the Slazenger Hogans, being of UK origin....however, I kinda sorta disagree about "SS appears to be unknown across the pond" remark...I think that quite a number of makers, especially in the '70s, made SS clubs. Spalding Executive ('77 into the mid '80s) were SS, so was the Hogan Producer, MacGregor MG Lite....I even have a Spalding Robert T Jones Jr set of irons that are marked 'stainless steel' (either from the '50s or '60s - TT shafts & leather grips)....
Just saying...

Sorry, I lost my normal precision. I meant that particular model.

[bcstones]

On a search for 7 irons, came across club (for some reason mixed in w/hickory shafts...a Brian Huggett Sand Iron by Nicoll of Scotland. Interestingly has the Welsh Dragon on the back toe end (I think I've seen that style lion on a couple of clubs I have...somewhere 🙃 🥸). The shaft band is a metalic-like teal True Temper Dynalyte Made In England "L", so a Lady's iron...still feels ok to me, just a wee bit shorter but usable. The grip is a Grip Pride Cheveron Made in USA & in excellent condition. The club head kinda sorta reminds me of the Walter Hagen Ultra 66 model, for some reason.

I didn't find much out about Brian Huggett, except he was Welsh & played well, winning an good number of European Opens, was on the Ryder Cup team a bunch of times. Still alive, from what I dug up.
Would love to know more about him, the clubs he played, where he played....stuff like that.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited October 6, 2023 by bcstones
being a wee bit of an idiot, I put "lion" instead of the Welsh Dragon, as it should have read (there is no emoji for "head sap"

[Jiggered]

23 hours ago, bcstones said:

On a search for 7 irons, came across club (for some reason mixed in w/hickory shafts...a Brian Huggett Sand Iron by Nicoll of Scotland. Interestingly has the Welsh Lion on the back toe end (I think I've seen that style lion on a couple of clubs I have...somewhere 🙃 🥸). The shaft band is a metalic-like teal True Temper Dynalyte Made In England "L", so a Lady's iron...still feels ok to me, just a wee bit shorter but usable. The grip is a Grip Pride Cheveron Made in USA & in excellent condition. The club head kinda sorta reminds me of the Walter Hagen Ultra 66 model, for some reason.

I didn't find much out about Brian Huggett, except he was Welsh & played well, winning an good number of European Opens, was on the Ryder Cup team a bunch of times. Still alive, from what I dug up.
Would love to know more about him, the clubs he played, where he played....stuff like that.

 

 

That model came out in 1970, if you look closely it's a Welsh dragon rather than a lion.

 

There's not much on the internet for most of the British Pros of that time unfortunately.

 

George Nicoll's main name on their clubs was Henry Cotton and in the post war years Brian Huggett is the only other man I've seen and just this one model.

 

Vivian Saunders had her name on a few ladies models for Nicoll.

[bcstones]

1 hour ago, Jiggered said:

 

"... it's a Welsh dragon rather than a lion"

I'm an idiot...yeah, I did know that - and somehow 🤔, the "English" poked that "lion" bit in me....🙃😂

I did correct my error & left the reason for my idiocy 🥸

Edited October 6, 2023 by bcstones

[bcstones]

ok, found 2 "across the pond" clubs, a 6 iron & W, well more than 2 but I couldn't find the other two yesterday. For sure a Lady's Slazenger club...I can't make out the signature on the clubhead, and only "Jean" on the shaft band. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Any idea of who the Lady is?

Edited October 7, 2023 by bcstones

[WRXinThailand]

30 minutes ago, bcstones said:

ok, found 2 "across the pond" clubs, a 6 iron & W, well more than 2 but I couldn't find the other two yesterday. For sure a Lady's Slazenger club...I can't make out the signature on the clubhead, and only "Jean" on the shaft band. 

 

 

Any idea of who the Lady is?

 

 

Maybe Jean Donald?  

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jean_Donald

[elwhippy]

Jean Donald's were the ladies equivalent of the Seve Ballesteros irons. Cast, often sold in sports stores. OK quality with wide soles. 

[Jiggered]

4 hours ago, bcstones said:

ok, found 2 "across the pond" clubs, a 6 iron & W, well more than 2 but I couldn't find the other two yesterday. For sure a Lady's Slazenger club...I can't make out the signature on the clubhead, and only "Jean" on the shaft band. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Any idea of who the Lady is?

 

That's a coincidence, I've got a YouTube video about Jean Donald coming out on 16th October which covers her career and the range of Slazenger clubs bearing her name.  

I think yours is from around 1970 but her first model came out in 1956.

 

[Foozle]

I have just taken delivery of this Ben Sayers Big Ben Pro Model driver. 

My initial interest was simply to add a Ben Sayers persimmon to my collection but had to have it when I saw the shaft! My curiosity was piqued!

Now I have it, I am none the wiser and hope someone here may be able to identify the shaft?

It gives the appearance of being wrapped in a woven tape, spirals at perhaps 1cm centres. It appears marginally narrower than a standard steel shaft and, if wrapped, shows no evidence of steps underneath.

The wrap goes under the whipping and nice leather grip so I believe would be "as built" rather than applied later.

In discussion with the vendor, we both think perhaps a early form of graphite or carbon shaft? The neck carries the script "Atom Protected Persimmon"!?

It is re-bar stiff with almost no flex but overall the club feels quite light.

Anyone come across anything similar?

[elwhippy]

Never seen a Ben Sayers persimmon wood. They made excellent quality laminated heads, more suited to damp UK conditions. The head is gorgeous.

[bcstones]

5 hours ago, Foozle said:

Anyone come across anything similar?

 

5 hours ago, Foozle said:

It gives the appearance of being wrapped in a woven tape,

I can't see the wrapping of the shaft....it sounds alot like Shakespeare's Wonder Shaft. It was fiberglass wrapped, some had a wood core & some just wrapped like their fishing rods (ie. Wonderrods & Ugly Sticks). They sponsored Gary Player for awhile. I have a set of their irons, tho the shafts are yellow. I also have a black shafted Gary Player black knight driver & putter. 
(story I heard is that Player did not like the fiberglass shafts, so painted his old shafts black & played them as long as he was sponsored by Shakesperare)

[Jiggered]

Nice find!

I've seen the Big Ben driver quite often but it's usually laminated, is it a larger head size?

Probably a niche club for the better player, looks as though it's barely seen a course.

 

As to the shaft, no idea, I assume it's not magnetic?

 

I can't remember seeing a full set of Big Ben irons but here's a proper 1 iron with the Big Ben name.

 

[Foozle]

8 hours ago, Jiggered said:

Nice find!

I've seen the Big Ben driver quite often but it's usually laminated, is it a larger head size?

Probably a niche club for the better player, looks as though it's barely seen a course.

 

As to the shaft, no idea, I assume it's not magnetic?

 

I can't remember seeing a full set of Big Ben irons but here's a proper 1 iron with the Big Ben name.

 

It is a slightly larger head but not as deep in the flesh as I assumed from the pictures in the listing. I did think it was perhaps a modern take on the original "Dreadnaught" drivers!

The shaft is not magnetic. Despite the weave looking like cloth, there is no "give" on the surface of the shaft - it does feel hard and metallic to touch.

I don't think it has been hit. The sole plate has been cleaned using course sandpaper - guessing to remove yellowed varnish - and will need some rubbing down with fine grit to remove the scratches but otherwise there are no marks to suggest play.

I will be curious to try and hit it but don't hold out any hopes of success. I can barely deflect the shaft over me knee - it is that stiff! 

Edited October 9, 2023 by Foozle
Update

[Foozle]

I have recently added these to my collection of UK persimmons.

I was only vaguely aware of Terry Gilbert but have learned a little about him, sadly through an obituary I found on line.

This is an eclectic set with different shafts, grips, inserts etc but all name for the same person with initials DJB stamped on the crown. Odd too to have a persimmon 6 wood!

A nice feature is the club number stamped into the toe of the clubs as well as date stamps just above the soleplate. These are all 1990 - 93 and I understand are from Terry's time in West Kilbride.

They do feel and appear very well made with good solid well grained persimmon blocks.

I have only hit the driver so far which has a very light but very long (45"?) regular flex graphite shaft producing what we used to refer as a "power fade"!

I would be very interested in any more info on Terry Gilbert; I am sure some on here may have known him personally? Also any clues on DJB initials?

[Foozle]

I seem to have formed a collection of Benny putters!

I enjoy how they are all subtly different and love the gentle swan neck on the older ones and transition from round to square in the hickory shafts both of which have the Sayers stamps on them just below the grips.

Play wise, I like the pyratone one best.

The modern one was my late father's. I still remember him buying it as part of a budget half set through the mid '70's version on on line shopping, the home catalogue! He bought them when I began to get the golf bug. The bug never really bit him but he encouraged me by joining me on the course until I got a little more serious and began competitive golf.

Sadly we didn't play together often, if at all, after my mid teens but he did still occasionally play some of the scenic 9 hole courses around Scotland into his later years with a set I handed down (or up) to him although he kept the Benny putter in his bag.

Always thinking there was next week or next month, i should have made more time, something you realise too late.

[Jiggered]

Picked up a couple of sets of coated steel shaft irons and two woods recently.

 

The irons have rekindled my desire to find out exactly when Spalding acquired the Stewart name (and while I'm at it the Forgan name), if anyone has any details please advise, preferably with supporting evidence!

 

The two iron sets are very similar, one is a T. Stewart, Frank Jowle Own Model and the other is the better known Spalding, T. Stewart, Henry Cotton model, pics below.

The Frank Jowle has the fanned line face, which Stewarts used back in the hickory days, while the Henry Cotton has a dot face design. 

 

I don't know which is earlier but I suspect the Henry Cotton, the earliest advert I've found for this club is from 1948.

 

I think that the Frank Jowle clubs were made specifically for him to sell at his shop (I believe that he was Pro at Edgbaston for many years), his best years were in the 1950s which included 3rd place in The Open in 1955, but he didn't really have the cachet to justify a named model for general sale.

 

The shafts are both True Temper and are slightly different. The Henry Cotton gives the flex in wording "WHIPPY" while the Frank Jowle has what I believe is a slightly later design with a big 3 and a letter "M" for flex.

 

If anybody knows better the dates for these two True Temper shafts please advise!

 

 

Then there are the two woods by Gordon Lockhart, these look to be 1930s and have white painted faces and earlier shaft labels reading "True Temper, Step Down, Steel Shaft" with "WHIPPY" on the other side.

 

 

 

[Beginers-luck]

Hi all. I'm hoping some can shed some light on a set of irons that have been passed on to me. They we're made by John letters and have the markings trilogy TX on them. Apollo matchflex 2 shafts and golf pride velvet tour grips all in great condition. They also each have a brown leather John letters head covers. 
I don't know much about golfing to be honest but I am intrigued by these clubs as they were made in Scotland and the research I have done so far, shows they were well made clubs in their day. 
the trilogy range came out 1989 onwards but not sure the year for the TX. It is a shame the company went under over 10 years ago. 
many help or information appreciated. 

[Jiggered]

1 hour ago, Beginers-luck said:

Hi all. I'm hoping some can shed some light on a set of irons that have been passed on to me. They we're made by John letters and have the markings trilogy TX on them. Apollo matchflex 2 shafts and golf pride velvet tour grips all in great condition. They also each have a brown leather John letters head covers. 
I don't know much about golfing to be honest but I am intrigued by these clubs as they were made in Scotland and the research I have done so far, shows they were well made clubs in their day. 
the trilogy range came out 1989 onwards but not sure the year for the TX. It is a shame the company went under over 10 years ago. 
many help or information appreciated. 

 

I agree on the year 1989 for the original Trilogy irons.

There were several versions that followed but I can't help with dates on those, the defining feature was that they were all progressive cavity back to blade designs through the long to short irons.

 

Here are the ones I know of, not necessarily in correct order!

Trilogy

Trilogy 200 Oversize

Trilogy TX

Trilogy THD

Trilogy T3Plus

 

 

 

[Beginers-luck]

Ok thanks for the info. I was reading today that the trilogy TXD irons encompassed all the best features from the predecessors. So they must of been the last of the trilogy range. If anyone else has information on this range please get in touch. I will continues my research around online. Cheers