Utley vs. Pelz

[hoganfan924]

Keeping the putter-face square to the target means rotating it closed on the backswing and open on the thru-swing.

 

This method has never worker consistently for me and I think as I have got older, I have felt more uncomfortable manipulating the clubhead like this - which is probably why the beat-up White Hot 8 is in the bag and the Monza Corza is in the wardrobe (that's a British closet!).

 

I use a belly-putter purely as a training aid - you have to release the head with one of these - and it's amazing how natural and good the stroke feels after using one.

 

Good post.

 

It must be noted that belly putting (and long putter strokes) requires an arc stroke because the butt of the putter is swung around a point inside the ball positon. I've been to a Pelz school (last summer) and can unequivocally assure you that they teach an arc stroke for belly and long putter putting, not a SBST stroke. They even show how to adjust their "putting rail" trainer to accomodate an arc stroke.

 

I use a SBST stroke with a very small amount of face rotation. At the school the Pelz instructors tried to "correct" my face angle to be square 2 feet past the ball and this definitely felt like a hand/forearm manipulation to me and I didn't like it and don't try to do it.

 

I must add though, that most of the Pelz training aids are exceptional and can help anyone with any kind of stroke get better.

[mutley]

Good point about the butt of the long or belly putter being the fulcrum of the stroke. When my stroke goes off I try to keep the butt of the (33 1/2") putter pointing at my navel so I know I'm releasing it properly.

 

This prevents me pushing, blocking or otherwise steering the ball.

 

Having said all this, on putts of 3' or less, my stoke is much more SBST, but then it's only a 6" stroke for putts of this length.

 

Maybe the perfect stroke is the one a child uses the first time they pick up a putter - all the best drills are just trying to get us back to this.

 

Too weird?

[Redhaze737]

If you are swinging the gate and closing it on a short putt you are toast. If you are watching what your putter head does when you putt you will miss most putts. Straight back ,straight through, on plane is the way to go.

 

This question always gets a good response. Having taken a lesson from Utley and currently using his method I feel I should respond to this post. Straight back and straight back is not on plane unless you are bending over 90 degrees and swinging the putter like a pendulum.

 

During my lesson Stan had a demo putter with a laser in the end of the shaft on the head end. He demonstrated that if you swing the putter straight back and straight through you are actually going outside the plane on the backswing and the throughswing. The laser light actually goes above the line with a straight back and straight through stroke. Whereas keeping the putter head square to the plane and allowing it to come slightly inside the 'straight back' line on the backswing and throughswing keeps the stroke on plane.

 

In addition, there is no gate action. It's simply keeping the putter on plane back and through with a natural 'release' of the head through the ball. This release is easier with a toe balanced putter but can be done with a face balanced putter like the Odessy Two Ball. I've found that an important aspect of the stroke is the manner in which you should keep the putter close to the ground through the ball with a naturally somewhat short follow through. Stack two dimes one inch behind the ball and stack two quarters and a penny three inches in front of the ball. During your stroke miss the dimes but knock the pennies off. Practicing this keeps me from pulling putts and/or leaving the face open (not releasing) through the ball.

 

Aloha

[Redhaze737]

Pelz's method ruined my putting stroke and feel. I was hopeless with Pelz. I incorporate a stroke as Stan Utley suggests (I have not read Utley ... yet!) and my putting is much improved and the feel is coming back. I used to putt with a gate stroke until someone conviced me that Pelz was the Cat's pajamas. How wrong the Pelz method was for me. I know it may work for others but not for me, never again.

i totally agree and i have read both extensively, case in point look at Loren Roberts he putts like Utley he loads the putter on the backswing. look what it has done for jay haas. to me the key to Utley's method is how he holds the putter in his right hand, more in the palm than the fingers... :bigwhack:

 

I'm not sure I agree with your comment regarding the right hand being more in the palm rather than the fingers. I believe you will find that if you use Utley's grip the right hand is very much a finger grip. The right hand 'life line' goes over the knuckle of the second finger of the left hand. This does not allow you to use the palm of the right hand to grip the club. And as I remember Utley specifically mentioned that the grip is very much in the fingers of both hands. Perhaps it's a matter of interpretation. At any rate I prefer Utley's method - although as he says, he didn't invent it he just teaches it.

[ctgolfer21]

i used to follow the pelz straight back and thru philosophy when i had a mallet putter. However, i recently bought a cameron and decided to try to Utley method. What i found was the Utley was much more consistent over the course of a round and much better to repeat under pressure. In fact, after practicing the method for 2 days, i used it in my match yesterday and was really happy. I had a putt of the 18th hole to win my match and win the match for my team. It was basically make it and win, or miss it, half and lose. It was a 20 foot right to lefter and drained it with both teams and several members from the club looking on. Needless to say, i think im sticking with the Utley for now :bigwhack:

[SwingMan]

SBST is easier and more intuitive for most I think. The whole notion of allowing the club face to open on the backswing as the gated stroke does and then allowing on timing to return the club face to square is more complicated than most think. It doesn't take much misalignment to miss a ten footer. Just my thoughts.

 

Whoops - I think true SBST is more manipulative and unnatural than the traditional gated stroke or even Stan's method.

 

With a traditional gated stroke, you get the elbows against your rib cage, relax, find your tempo and just shoulder up, shoulder down, allowing the Natural arc of the resultant swing to work for you without manipulation, without hands.

 

With Utley, the stroke is a mini-golf stroke using a slight rotation of the arms and leaving the hands out of it.

 

With SBST, there is a disconnect and manipulation to keep it sbst -- something only an engineer like Pelz would advocate... :bigwhack: In theory, it is efficient.... but

[AcesAZ]

The mistake is people using the term "gated". That term makes it seem like that the person is actively rotating the clubhead open and shut, relying on timing. I think Stan would argue that's not the case, if you run the club straight back and straight through on an angled plane the clubhead only appears to open or close but it is truly staying square to the plane. Then only way you can keep the face square to the ball is by manipulation or if you're swinging on a completely vertical plane (which is not allowed in golf).

 

If you can time a straight back straight through stroke like Pelz advocates that's great, just look at Loren Roberts. However, to claim that Utley requires more "timing" is completely incorrect if you're doing the technique as he teaches. Unless you're extremely talented I'd say Utley is the way to go.

 

 

I agree with this, all I do is rock my shoulders straight back and straight through. No hand or wrist movements what so ever. I use a shorter putter 33" and most of the time putt my best with face balanced putters (using a Yes Tracy currently). I've looked at my stroke in the mirror and it definitely moves on an arc. Thats why I hate the terms "gated" or "SBST", How about just on plane?

[plastic jock]

i think we are reaching a similar point with putting as we reached in the full swing (Nelson style to Hogan to upright nicklaus and so on) Ive just ordered a sams and there is no doubt there has to be a degree of rotation but it may not always be noticeable due the posture at address. i feel if you swing the putter on plane it stays fairly straight in front of the toes but appears to rotate due to the plane incline outside the toes it has to rotate or you have to mainpulate

[yoonie]

I think that Pelz's theory is that even w/ the manipulation, SBST produces less error. I remember reading one of his studies saying that face angle is actually more important than path in determining the final direction of a putt (basically, side spin has a huge effect), so maybe a slightly arced stroke easier and simpler biomechanically, but the end result of a small error ends up further from the hole. Just a theory

[Slugsy]

Guys, from reading this, are you saying that the Utley method cannot be used with a mallet putter? I have a Red X and have been struggling somewhat with the Pelz method, particularly as I play a lot in high wind and trying to keep the putter on a stright line is a nightmare. I was hoping to have a try of the Utley method or at least trying the 'arc' method but is this not feasible with a mallet?

[SwingMan]

Guys, from reading this, are you saying that the Utley method cannot be used with a mallet putter? I have a Red X and have been struggling somewhat with the Pelz method, particularly as I play a lot in high wind and trying to keep the putter on a stright line is a nightmare. I was hoping to have a try of the Utley method or at least trying the 'arc' method but is this not feasible with a mallet?

 

 

I think that Stan prefers a slightly toe down putter for easing the rotation back to the ball and a release -- I think the Red X is a slightly toe down putter so you could use it -- but Stan also advocates a 35-36 inch putter and flatter lie angle 68-69 - so if your X can accommodate it.....

[hayam]

Stan putt along a really flat plane. along the forearm plane or elbow plane which is why its flat. everything move along the forearm which is inline with the shaft... thats why he wants something flatter.

 

I don't think messing around with bending double bend shaft is good because 1-2 degree may kink it if you are unlucky and the results will be inconsistent. also very tough to remove titleist double bend shaft. I suggest just try it with toe up and see if you like it for a couple of weeks..

 

There is an In between method... by rocking the shoulder blades And the rest is not manipulated. its great with 33' 70-71 deg ( depends on individual but thats what i use) ball in center.. but have to crouch more .. think of it as SBST on an inclined plane. so it look like a mini arc. Tiger wood also uses this method.. but he stands more upright so the arc is more...

[Slugsy]

I see, 68-69 degrees is really flat and flatter than my putter. The funny thing is, I used to have a really flat style and moved to a more upright stance 6 months ago to try and improve my consistency and follow the Pelz method! I used to get criticised a lot for my flat style and eventually took it to heart and changed and unfortunately the results have while sometimes been good, have been very inconsistent, particularly in windier conditions.

 

I've ordered Utley's book so will have a read and go from there.

 

Thanks guys

[touch]

I always have used the straight back - straight on through with much success. I do strongly agree with the above post that the shoulder rocking motion should be the only moving parts. The one exception is for those 80 footers where a tad of wrist slap is mandatory. If you keep the "Y" shape formed by your chest and arms steady, then rock your shoulders, you are set. Make sure you are properly aligned with your body, and your dominate eye is loking right at the back of the ball. Pick a small target on the green 4-5 feet in front of you and stroke your putter back and through and down to that target line. I think the gated method is way to inconsistant and hokey, Just my opinion.

 

LP

[trek1500]

Interesting thread! Putting is such an integral part of the game that a discussion like this is certainly going to generate a great deal of interest..

 

So with that in mind..here’s my 2 cents worth..

 

I remember many moons ago checking out Dave Pelz’s “Putting Bible†out from the local library near my home and spending the time to actually go through his diagrams and methods and trying to implement them in my game but recently I have had a change of heart regarding his methods..

 

I think Utley’s inside square is more effective and more natural..

 

Scotty Cameron is a proponent of this style and you can see it in his putter designs..i.e…the Detour and recently debuted, Newport 2 Detour..

 

Since I have adopted Utley’s methods I have noticed a significant improvement…and better results..

[hayam]

Also might like to add that.. Something I think worth sharing..

 

True SBST if your shoulder blade is to rock symmetrically.. along the spine.. to be a true SBST .. you will need that your spine along that shoulder blade to be parallel to the ground... or ... Geoff M. even suggest using the joint below the neck as a hinge.. ok problem with this you need to bend down real low and the speed control is very tough and bad for the back. People will also start laughing at your 28 inch long putters...

 

Another type of True SBST is by shoulder manipulation,, your shoulder need twist and bend if your spine area which the shoulder rock is on an Inclined plane.. like Pelz method.. and to an extent.. lead better method..

 

Someone did a study.. Mr. David Orr .. PGA class A.. That MOST SBST, Manipulative shoulder rock , pelz method or lead better method are not real SBST.. they mostly end up with REVERSE ARC. Not arguments.. its hard Data.

 

SO... MOST of the shoulder rockers are actually symmetrical shoulder rockers on an Inclined plane.. which results in an ARC.. And I remember vaguely its mentioned the better putters usually use this method.. Irregardless if the eye is above the ball etc...The Putting ARC is also designed more for this method.. Thought Different spine angle will have different ARC....

 

At the last end of the spectrum.. the Arm rockers... Stan Utley...

 

the tour average is 34" long putter. and 68* lie, if i am not wrong 5 deg loft or something.

 

Cheers!

[SwingMan]

I see, 68-69 degrees is really flat and flatter than my putter. The funny thing is, I used to have a really flat style and moved to a more upright stance 6 months ago to try and improve my consistency and follow the Pelz method! I used to get criticised a lot for my flat style and eventually took it to heart and changed and unfortunately the results have while sometimes been good, have been very inconsistent, particularly in windier conditions.

 

I've ordered Utley's book so will have a read and go from there.

 

Thanks guys

 

Utley wants it flat because he has you moving away from the ball with more length on the shaft. The more you move away, the more you need to flatten that lie angle to keep your arms and shaft on one plane.

 

I'd like to respond to the above post is that Utley is NOT an arm rocker -- rocking arms is an SBST movement -- elbows way out and rocking shoulders.

 

With Utley, if the shoulders move at all, it is only as a relaxed response to the rotation of the arms with the elbows held close to the body. On the backstroke, the left arm rotates and slightly straightens, while the right elbow bends slightly in response to the rotation. On the thru stroke, the right elbow straightens slightly and the left elbow slightly bends in response to the rotation of the arms -- think of the bone of the left forearm having a top and bottom -- the top bone rotates slightly clockwise and then the top bone returns to it position when you rotate it counterclockwise in the thru stroke.

[hayam]

Oh yes .. Swingman,, you are right.. ROCK is a very bad word

 

Actually your explanation is what I am trying to express that , Stan wants the arm and shaft to move along that plane and the body supports it automatically, thus the movement of the arms is the leader and king of his stroke.. thus the word rocking arms,, but inaccurate description I must say.

 

For a rocking shoulder or non rocking ( manipulated) shoulder.. The shoulder , with the participation of the spine as a fixed or manipulated hinge is the leader.. the arms and hand is going to move according how the shoulder move..The shoulder is king and the rest the "follower"

 

People starts to get in trouble when they try to mix both... a stroke cannot have 2 King., and is as bad as one without a king..It just kills the geometry.

 

thanks for correcting me.

[Redhaze737]

Guys, from reading this, are you saying that the Utley method cannot be used with a mallet putter? I have a Red X and have been struggling somewhat with the Pelz method, particularly as I play a lot in high wind and trying to keep the putter on a stright line is a nightmare. I was hoping to have a try of the Utley method or at least trying the 'arc' method but is this not feasible with a mallet?

 

When I took my lesson from Utley I was using a Two Ball putter which is face balanced. Utley said it was OK and he could teach me to putt with it but that her preferred a toe balanced putter. I have since switched to a Scotty Cameron toe balanced putter. It makes it easies to release the putter and you can 'feel' the toe come through. I believe Cameron has a relatively new design out with a tail on it similar to the two ball putter but toe balanced. It's make for Utley's method. In short you can use any putter with Utley's method but a toe balanced putter is preferred.

[SwingMan]

Oh yes .. Swingman,, you are right.. ROCK is a very bad word

 

Actually your explanation is what I am trying to express that , Stan wants the arm and shaft to move along that plane and the body supports it automatically, thus the movement of the arms is the leader and king of his stroke.. thus the word rocking arms,, but inaccurate description I must say.

 

For a rocking shoulder or non rocking ( manipulated) shoulder.. The shoulder , with the participation of the spine as a fixed or manipulated hinge is the leader.. the arms and hand is going to move according how the shoulder move..The shoulder is king and the rest the "follower"

 

People starts to get in trouble when they try to mix both... a stroke cannot have 2 King., and is as bad as one without a king..It just kills the geometry.

 

thanks for correcting me.

 

 

There is so much verbage out here -- and rocking has good and bad connotations -- depending on what method one is using.

 

For example, I would not call Tiger's method any form of sbst --I'd call it the traditional arc or gated method -- eyes over ball, your arms are against the ribcage and your hands are relaxed with a light grip -- the shoulders "rock" up and down free of tension (theoretically). The rocking motion of the shoulders causes a slight arc and not any separate movement of the hands.

[hayam]

Yes Swingman,

 

tiger uses his shoulder and a fixed inclined hinge as his main geometry..

 

SBST actually means PATH where the club takes is straight in and through... Why I like to say that SBST on inclined plane is to let people rock their shoulder symmetrically on inclined plane and the rest take lead from the shoulder with little motion. it will look SBST on inclined plane instead of really just ARC, staying low on the ground etc...

 

The phrases created by golf instruction is a little vague...

[bgolfing]

I was more Utley until I found the site puttingzone.com. Some will say it is a Pelx offshoot but he differs in a lot of ways. Really has helped my putting significantly. Most noticable improvement I think I have made in a long time.