Classic putters

[birly-shirly]

Sorry people - you've been brought here under false pretences.

 

"Classic Putters" was the cover story on the magazine I picked up in the clubhouse today. Intrigued, I turned pages to read what they had to say on a subject of some interest.

 

I got a two page spread of new putters - very thorough, over a dozen I would guess - every single one of which, and I kid not, was a straight and unabashed derivative of the Anser style. Now, I like an Anser as much as the next guy, but really? Is that the definition, be-all and end-all of classic design now?

[Kathy Marie]

Wait wait don't tell me!! Let me guess....

(closes eyes, frowns whilst pinching bridge of nose)





















I've got it!!!!!

[b][i]They're *ALLLLL* Scotty Camerons, right?????[/i][/b]

Thank you, thank you!!! I'm here all week and remember to tip your server...





Kathy Marie

[scomac2002]

KM!

[quote="birly-shirly"]Now, I like an Anser as much as the next guy, but really? Is that the definition, be-all and end-all of classic design now?[/quote]

Sadly I think so, most recently confirmed by [url="http://www.golfwrx.com/forums/topic/1233556-help-me-build-the-perfect-90searly-2000s-golf-bag/]this"]http://www.golfwrx.c...-golf-bag/[/url] .

[Ironmaster Oddities]

I never cease to be amazed by the prices these new putters fetch. A hand-made, one-of-a-kind, custome built putter, I could kind of understand.
But Scotty and the other boutique putter can be made by the hundreds, if there is a market. Simply punch in the info on a CNC machine, put in the steel billet and turn it on. I probably oversimplified the process...but not much.
The guys on the putter forum act like they got the one and only club of its kind. It's not even the one and only one made that day. I know the club can be modified for the buyer. But I guarantee all the data is stored by the clubmaker.
I realize that the Ironmasters i collect are not unique. But at least scarcity is a factor. And each one is a little different than the next. But it would be imprudent and idiotic to drop 500 to a grand on something that can be perfectly duplicated with the push of a button.
Someone please enlighten me

[Blade Junkie]

[quote name='Ironmaster Oddities' timestamp='1441595956' post='12274146']
I never cease to be amazed by the prices these new putters fetch

Someone please enlighten me
[/quote]

I don't get it either ... and the additional amount spent on the headcovers is even more bizarre ...

[Fellaheen51]

I'd rather miss 4 foot putts with a $2.00 thrift store found putter than a $500 one.

[birly-shirly]

Uncle Bob and BJ - I can't promise to make sense of the situations you describe, but if you try thinking of those articles as a form of jewellery, does that help?

They don't have to be particularly functional, they don't even have to be particularly beautiful, but they should let everyone in the vicinity know that you've spent a lot of money.

[Fellaheen51]

On a more serious note, what's the consensus on staying with your "tried and true" putter or switching things up? I use a putter as long as it's rolling them in. When things go awry, I change. Anything form anser style to mallets to 8802 style. Length goes up and down as well. Seem to like an "anser" style at 33" and mallets at 35". A Nicklaus crouch at times, more upright on other occasions. Golf buds NEVER change their putter.

Current flavor of the moment is a McGregor JN Muirfield 8802 style blade playing at 34" (has a beautiful brown leather grip on it, so that's the length). For no particular reason other than I've made a few putts with it of late. Had been using a Zing 2 BeCu for most of the year but it has gone a little stale. An old fav, a Rossie II (classic?) is always at the ready when my preference leans toward a mallet.

Usually a fairly decent putter, can read a green pretty well. So changing putters really isn't that big a deal. Consider it to be a matter of execution rather than the tool in my hands. And since we've accumulated all these Classic putters, might as well use them. This is the Classic WRX section, we seem to be more predisposed to switching our sticks up with some regularity. Does seem to be a minority position based on my observed sample size.

[birly-shirly]

I don't see anything wrong in what you're doing Fella.

Compared to my other clubs, I feel like I tend to stick with a putter, although I think I've putted decently this year with a Spalding TPM and 2 different Maxfli TMs. I swap out irons, woods and wedges more often, and I tend to think that's going to be a harder adjustment to make. I'm inclined to think that putting, more than other shots, is more of an issue of judgement than execution, so as long as you have a putter that you like I think it's not too difficult to adapt to a different club from time to time.

[scomac2002]

I also tend to change putters depending upon how I've been putting and to a lesser extent depending upon the course I'm playing. I've never been known as a good putter, but I have putted better than ever this year I believe inspite of the changes of implement. Lately I've been using an Anser styled Never Compromise as I have been playing mostly with moderns (trying to see if the ball striking magic will ever return to my i25's; sadly this doesn't appear to be the case). Over the course of the year I have used a Zebra, a Zing, a Rife mid mallet and the Never Compromise all to good effect at various times. As far as I can tell it's all about stroke and pace. The only thing that has been a complete bust was a center-shafted full mallet. In hind sight that doesn't seem like such a surprise.

With respect to switching clubs particularly of the vintage variety, I have earned a few interesting responses from my playing partners from "being confused" to almost apologetic for me not having modern clubs. It would seem that there are many ingrained preconceived notions out there with respect to anything that isn't viewed as current or the generally accepted methods of play. If you're successful, you're an eccentric anomaly. If not, you're just confused and in need of some new tools and instruction on how to do things "correctly".

[xgolfx]

I agre wholeheartedly with Ironmaster. In my opinion, putter covers are a marketing scheme. hogan, Arnie, Jack, Crenshaw, and Locke did pretty well ( on worse greens) without them. I also do not buy the milled face concept. Money and marketing have ruined golf. The
Forged versus cast iron has a little validity, but tests have also blown that also. Even the most discerning players could not tell the difference. The oligopoly of manufacturers are adding to the demise of our great game . Golf is trending down due to cost and allocation of recreation time. Courses will revert to expensive clubs for the rich and muni owned facilities. Taxes and costs of upkeep are squeezing out the family owned public courses. Sports like soccer and lacrosse (virtually unplayed in the USA previously) have become popular. Caddies have been replaced by carts . in my opinion, many courses would become real estate for sale were it not for women and seniors, a dying audience.

the putter styles of ping anser, and 8802 have stood the test of time. Mallets have been bastardized from Oteys to the current $500 models. Although I don't endorse the long putter, I feel that players like Tim Clark and Adam Scott , along with many Senior Tour players,have been unjustly made to change.


CHARLEY PENNA

[Blade Junkie]

[quote name='Fellaheen51' timestamp='1441626644' post='12274924']
On a more serious note, what's the consensus on staying with your "tried and true" putter or switching things up?
[/quote]

I have used six putters in the last hour ...

Monday is conference call day ... so it's "hit the speaker button, hit the mute" and a few hours of carpet putting !

[TimV]

[quote name='Ironmaster Oddities' timestamp='1441595956' post='12274146']
I never cease to be amazed by the prices these new putters fetch...
But it would be imprudent and idiotic to drop 500 to a grand on something that can be perfectly duplicated with the push of a button.
Someone please enlighten me
[/quote]

You obviously don't understand that the cost of your equipment is the most important factor in how good a golfer you are.
Nothing makes me happier than beating some guy that has at least a grand or more wrapped up in his sticks with my current set with a total cost of under $80. The bulk of that being in my 2 fairway woods.

[Jgb333]

Nothing wrong or expensive about this TM-2...a little elbow grease, some plum brown, and a new pure midsize grip (grip cost more than the putter!)

It's dead solid perfect slightly milled carbon steel...I swear it's the fluted shaft that makes all the difference[attachment=2943310:image.jpg]

[BIG STU]

[quote name='Jgb333' timestamp='1441656245' post='12276802']
Nothing wrong or expensive about this TM-2...a little elbow grease, some plum brown, and a new pure midsize grip (grip cost more than the putter!)

It's dead solid perfect slightly milled carbon steel...I swear it's the fluted shaft that makes all the difference[attachment=2943310:image.jpg]
[/quote]I would absolutely love to find me a TM-2 that cheap in fact the more patina the better. I keep looking but cant find one

[Jgb333]

I was quite lucky with this one, once a week I check a certain online marketplace....I think they are the height of design...form and function I now have the 1, 2, 6, and 8 in my stable...currently looking for a 4 in restoration grade shape...
These carbon steel maxfli Tad Moore's preform exceptionally well...they are prone to rust so you must be careful and attentive.

[BIG STU]

[quote name='xgolfx' timestamp='1441636405' post='12275478']
I agre wholeheartedly with Ironmaster. In my opinion, putter covers are a marketing scheme. hogan, Arnie, Jack, Crenshaw, and Locke did pretty well ( on worse greens) without them. I also do not buy the milled face concept. Money and marketing have ruined golf. The
Forged versus cast iron has a little validity, but tests have also blown that also. Even the most discerning players could not tell the difference. The oligopoly of manufacturers are adding to the demise of our great game . Golf is trending down due to cost and allocation of recreation time. Courses will revert to expensive clubs for the rich and muni owned facilities. Taxes and costs of upkeep are squeezing out the family owned public courses. Sports like soccer and lacrosse (virtually unplayed in the USA previously) have become popular. Caddies have been replaced by carts . in my opinion, many courses would become real estate for sale were it not for women and seniors, a dying audience.

the putter styles of ping anser, and 8802 have stood the test of time. Mallets have been bastardized from Oteys to the current $500 models. Although I don't endorse the long putter, I feel that players like Tim Clark and Adam Scott , along with many Senior Tour players,have been unjustly made to change.


CHARLEY PENNA
[/quote]As usual Mr. Penna dead on it. One of my rules is that I do not carry a putter that is expensive enough or nice enough to warrant a cover. I have experimented recently with a couple of milled faced putters that I absolutely do not have one dime in at all. for me I can not control the distance with one and have absolutely no feel. I even tried to putt with them with some pristine balata balls (thanks again Scooter) but same story. I have jacked around with grips etc. Went back to my basics with my old Ping putters by using stock Ping man grips like they came with. Most of my old Macgregors have the original leather wrapped grips. Funny some people today refer to a TM-2 as a Coronado style when actually a Coronado is a TM-2 style in this case us old timers know what came first. Yes your whole statement is my feelings exactly

[BIG STU]

[quote name='Fellaheen51' timestamp='1441626644' post='12274924']
On a more serious note, what's the consensus on staying with your "tried and true" putter or switching things up? I use a putter as long as it's rolling them in. When things go awry, I change. Anything form anser style to mallets to 8802 style. Length goes up and down as well. Seem to like an "anser" style at 33" and mallets at 35". A Nicklaus crouch at times, more upright on other occasions. Golf buds NEVER change their putter.

Current flavor of the moment is a McGregor JN Muirfield 8802 style blade playing at 34" (has a beautiful brown leather grip on it, so that's the length). For no particular reason other than I've made a few putts with it of late. Had been using a Zing 2 BeCu for most of the year but it has gone a little stale. An old fav, a Rossie II (classic?) is always at the ready when my preference leans toward a mallet.

Usually a fairly decent putter, can read a green pretty well. So changing putters really isn't that big a deal. Consider it to be a matter of execution rather than the tool in my hands. And since we've accumulated all these Classic putters, might as well use them. This is the Classic WRX section, we seem to be more predisposed to switching our sticks up with some regularity. Does seem to be a minority position based on my observed sample size.
[/quote]I have had my flings this year. My putting has been all over the board and I have been switching up right and left. Ended putting all my putters back to 34" and went back to basics especially with the Pings. Right now the famous Zing is back in the main bag. Actually I took your advice from some time back about tempting fate and put it back in.

[BIG STU]

[quote name='Jgb333' timestamp='1441665925' post='12277490']
I was quite lucky with this one, once a week I check a certain online marketplace....I think they are the height of design...form and function I now have the 1, 2, 6, and 8 in my stable...currently looking for a 4 in restoration grade shape...
These carbon steel maxfli Tad Moore's preform exceptionally well...they are prone to rust so you must be careful and attentive.
[/quote]The rust does not bother me one bit you ought to see my raw 588 wedges or better yet my rusty CF-4000s. Down here IMHO it is a moot point and a waste of time to try to keep older clubs you play pristine because of the salt air. Heck even my front line 80 VIPs are getting worn and rusty on the faces. It may sound funny but it is my anti status quoe thing to have rusty clubs. Now they may be rusty but the grooves and grips are clean. And I do admit I relish inside about beating guys that have more money in a driver than I do in my whole set

[Jgb333]

This discussion regarding vintage/classic putters vs modern putters really has me thinking. I'm going to throw this out there...it may be an impossible question to ask based on how personal putters are but what the heck...
I'm of the belief, as I assume many of you here are as well, that modern equipment in general but specifically putters have become over engineered...
at what point in history or more precisely if possible what putter represents the perfect intersection of form and function?
Meaning any putter before that one may be interesting and nostalgic but you could never put an entire season with it and expect to improve. Further any putter after that will not enhance your game enough where it's worth the money...let me throw two out to start

Original 8802
Ping Anser 2 (stainless)

[BIG STU]

[quote name='Jgb333' timestamp='1441669483' post='12277760']
This discussion regarding vintage/classic putters vs modern putters really has me thinking. I'm going to throw this out there...it may be an impossible question to ask based on how personal putters are but what the heck...
I'm of the belief, as I assume many of you here are as well, that modern equipment in general but specifically putters have become over engineered...
at what point in history or more precisely if possible what putter represents the perfect intersection of form and function?
Meaning any putter before that one may be interesting and nostalgic but you could never put an entire season with it and expect to improve. Further any putter after that will not enhance your game enough where it's worth the money...let me throw two out to start

Original 8802
Ping Anser 2 (stainless)
[/quote]even though I can't putt with one worth a hoot you left one out-- The Bulls Eye-- Untill the Anser came out the 8802 was the most copied putter of all time. I have came upon a theory this summer after experimenting with quite a few putters. It has to do with what you learned and developed your game putting with. For me I would say it is Ping putters for those before me I would say the 8802. Younger guys I would say generally Scotty or Odyssey with milled faces or inserts. I will tend to agree with you on the over engineered part today. Then you have the custom exotic crowd. I guess it is whatever floats your boat

[Jgb333]

Bullseye is a good suggestion but it's ultimately too light.
If you find yourself having to add lead tape then the putter is too light for all conditions. Any putter with an insert or milling (for the sake of this mental exercise) is automatically eliminated...both innovations can be helpful, however, in the end can you put just as good or better without those technologies?

This all means, at least for me, that both the 8802 and the anser must be eliminated...
If the original "two ball" had no insert it would be a contender...

[birly-shirly]

JGB - I see your point, but I think you need to separate out the engineering issues from matters of personal preference.

Some engineers have argued that there is no advantage at all in higher MOI head designs over simple blades or mallets once you put them in the hands of a human. In other words, the natural variation in distance perception, rhythm, pace and alignment of a real golfer COMPLETELY obscures any purely mechanical differences in how 2 putters might perform.

I don't see how a putter can be too light in an engineering sense. I can absolutely see though how you might prefer a heavier putter. But if weight is a legitimate preference, then I think head design is too. You could go back 30 years and probably find a dozen or more Ping designs with essentially the same clubhead MOI. You'd find multiple designs with the same degree of offset, they probably all had the same shaft and Pingman grip, and materials would be either stainless steel or bronze. I don't think there's anything wrong with offering a choice of different headshapes so that people can find a look, or a feel, that they like.

By same token, if people like inserts or milling or face grooves, then whilst I'm sceptical that they provide any mechanical advantage - if they make for a putter that you subjectively prefer, then that's ok by me.

Going back to the original post, what amazes me is the lack of choice in the "classic putter" category. It seems that you can have any headweight, material, colour, method of manufacture and insert, so long as it comes packaged in an anser headstyle. Where were all the flanged blade and bullseye designs?

Even though the early pings are seen as having heralded in high-MOI forgiveness into clubhead designs, I still need to be convinced that they offer a mechanical advantage over simpler designs. Certainly there have been plenty of pros in the past who went back and forth between perimeter weighted Pings and blades.

If I had to pick one putter design to answer your question, I'd probably go for the 8802. But even there, you're going to get sceptics who don't see it as really any better than an ironmaster or a HBA.

[Texsport]

There is an option, of course, that being heavier, custom classic putter designs..

Lamont Mann makes beautiful 8802 style putters (his model 6266) in head weights of 360-370 grams - most 8802 heads were 315-320 grams.

I own several Tour used Bullseye putters, and all were special order, heavier heads.

PLOP putters, used by Seve Ballesteros and Arnold Palmer for a time, are Bullseye style, center shafted blades, which were originally 315 grams. The inventor is currently making custom, milled brass PLOP II putters in head weights ranging up to 375 grams.

Of course, most of us believe that the demise of classic putters was caused by much faster greens + the advent of the hard, solid core balls and harder covers. Heavier heads evolved because of green speeds, but most manufacturers also incorporated softer inserts to cushion the impact feel with rockabilly- like modern balls.

Some modern custom putter makers, besides PLOP, are using brass instead of Stainless Steel to improve feel. I use a Lamont Mann brass putter with a head weight of 400 grams, counter weighted with a heavier grip. The putter's shape began as a copy of a custom aluminum Cameron Insight putter made for Nick Faldo.


[attachment=2944324:image.jpg][attachment=2944322:image.jpg][attachment=2944326:image.jpg]

[Jgb333]

The wealth of knowledge on this particular forum is astounding...I know it's an impossible question to answer...but I thought it would be a fun mental exercise...as I get older I'm tending to gravitate back towards more classic clubs....blade styled putters....forged irons....I wonder if it's nostalgia or if modern technology really has not advanced all that much...or maybe I'm cheap

[scomac2002]

[quote name='Jgb333' timestamp='1441711598' post='12279794']
The wealth of knowledge on this particular forum is astounding...I know it's an impossible question to answer...but I thought it would be a fun mental exercise...as I get older I'm tending to gravitate back towards more classic clubs....blade styled putters....forged irons....I wonder if it's nostalgia or if modern technology really has not advanced all that much...or maybe I'm cheap
[/quote]

Nostalgia can be a powerful motivator. I think it's what drives a lot of us on this corner of the site and there's nothing wrong with that. In some ways, I tend to agree that modern technology is not so advanced more from the perspective of what is sacrificed in the name of gain in some other area.

To my way of thinking a putter is a putter and a wedge is a wedge. Not a lot has changed in these clubs over the past half century beyond the insert thing and grooves and face treatments. In the hands of the average human, gains could be fleeting.

With irons, I think launch and forgiveness in terms of loss of ball speed across the face are the biggest advances. The more bits and bobbles you add to an iron head, the less feel you get, even more so with a graphite shaft for a handle. Once you get beyond the distance factor there are arguments to be made either way, but in terms of ease of use has anything materially been gained since the Ping G2...or even further back to the Eye2?

Outside of the ball, woods are where the biggest advances have been made IMO both from a distance and forgiveness perspective. My modern metal woods vintage 2010 are longer and more forgiving than my old War birds with those having similar advantages over the laminates and persimmons that preceded them.

Where vintage truly can shine is in the value department. Does that make us cheap? I don't know, but as many have said there is a certain measure of satisfaction from outplaying a competitor with a small fortune tied up in his bag of the latest and greatest! It does seem fanciful to spend $500 on a putter that will sink no more putts than $50 vintage flat stick via eBay auction from an equally gifted craftsman as our own Tad Moore. Unless there's a collectibility factor built in, one can put together a very playable and satisfying bag of clubs on the cheap by mixing and matching old and newer; perhaps not thrift store cheap, but you get the idea.

Strangely enough, for me at least, the move to vintage golf has more or less extinguished the flame that was continually driving me to search for the next better thing that might help my game. Now, I just want to play with whatever is lying around and moves me to give it a go. Sure there are vintage clubs I'd like to give a try; perhaps a set of Hogans or Ram blades just to see what they're all about or a Cleveland Classic, but that's more out of curiosity than any notion that my game will be necessarily better for it. That in and of itself has freed my mind to truly enjoy the game for what it is. There in lies the true beauty of playing vintage clubs!

[Langlands]

I too like to swap to a different putter when things go awry on the greens - swap between a mallet, Anser-style head and a 2-ball putter I really like (not that classic I know, but it will be soon enough haha).

I've recently had a bit of a clear-out of some golf stuff that's been lying about in my garage gathering dust, including a few putters in order to keep the "stable" down to about 6 or so.....!

On the subject of head covers, I paid £75 for a very nice SH Scotty Cameron putter about 3 years ago - decided to sell on the head cover that came with it (minus the pitch mark repairing tool that was not included in the sale). Got over £20 for it on eBay! Had it not the Cameron logo etc. on it I would have been lucky to get a fiver if indeed it had sold at all.

[Danny Young]

I love reading these posts , so much knowledge and good advice.

I have had massive putting problems this year infact so bad that i said yesterday i was going to take some time out as i was putting so poorly and getting angry in my self about it , i hit every fairway and missed a few greens along the way and was 7/8 over par ( i gave up counting ) i had two three putts and missed 6/7 under five feet. I have had every putter going from the Camerons to Ping and everything else even counter balance and belly putters. I seem to always go back to an old cleveland that is a mallet style and has the milled face however today i have been putting with an old blade i got off my grandad its a Ben Sayers and he thinks it from the 50s and it feels as good as any putter i have had, it really rolls the ball so well. The money i must have spent on putters over the years is insane i bet i could of had a nice car or holiday with the money at least.

I am really starting to see now since i have been picking up older irons and persimmion woods just how little change i feel there is in the older gear. With the winter now coming here in the U.K i am thinking about playing a vintage bag for a few months and really see the difference , it will be fun , stop me expecting to much from my game and putting and maybe even save me a few quid.

Cheers guys

[Fellaheen51]

Excellent post buddy! You articulated what I was thinking when I read post #25. Once basic parameters are met (length, lie, a shaft that is "in the ballpark" of preferred weight and flex, etc.) clubs in our kit become somewhat interchangeable. Especially in the area of irons, wedges and putters. We both have discovered this "revelation" through our experiences this year.

This leads to thinking less about the equipment (other than experimentation and/or curiosity) and more about the swing/stroke needed for proper execution. Despite playing a variety of different classic and modern clubs, my outcomes (score?) are essentially the same. With prudent shopping one is able to try a variety of different clubs, determine what works and what does not, with a reasonably modest investment. Sometimes, downright cheap. Therefore:

[color=#282828]".....but that's more out of curiosity than any notion that my game will be necessarily better for it. That in and of itself has freed my mind to truly enjoy the game for what it is. There in lies the true beauty of playing vintage clubs!"[/color]

[scomac2002]

Thanks, Fella!