Anyone else "Underwhelmed" by Streamsong?

[TheDailyDuffer]

[quote name='vbb' timestamp='1443876578' post='12404610']
[quote name='BrianL99' timestamp='1443875640' post='12404586']
[quote name='vbb' timestamp='1443874065' post='12404538']
[quote name='BrianL99' timestamp='1443822848' post='12402416']
What Saturday are you going to be in Tampa?
[/quote]
Oct 24th. Thinking of making the trip out to Streamsong?
[/quote]


That's my week in Florida this month. I take a ride down if you're interested.
[/quote]Let's do it! I'll shoot you a PM in a few minutes.
[/quote]

As it seems playing 36 is very unlikely I'd recommend that you go ahead and play the first 6 holes on blue after you finish up on red. Both courses return to the clubhouse after 6 and they do in fact offer a 6 hole rate.

[vbb]

Unfortunately after calling the course yesterday to try and book the tee time, I quickly learned that Streamsong is quite popular and getting a time in the windows when I'm available to play is proving impossible. Saturday morning was my best shot and both courses are booked up until that afternoon. Oh well, I was really looking forward to it.

[TheDailyDuffer]

I stepped away from this thread, but after re reading it i realize that a few things needed to be cleared up.


[quote name='BrianL99' timestamp='1443000193' post='12354658']
I know I'm going to regret this, it's a little like trying to explain what real life is like to a 15 year old teenager, but oh well ...

Here's the "difference" in courses and why I say Florida is a wasteland for golf courses.

TIME. History. Design philosophy. Reality.

Hardly any golf course in Florida was built prior to 1950. What happened after W.W. II, beginning in the 50's? A "industrial revolution" of sorts, throughout the world. Bulldozers and mechanized earth moving equipment appeared. Blame John Deere.

The golden age of traditional golf course development in the USA, was prior to 1950. Why? A huge labor pool, needed work. The WPA program put millions to work, many of them building golf courses "by hand". Golf courses in the Northeast and many other places, were of necessity, designed using [b]natural features [/b]to delineate holes and frame the golf course.

In the Northeast, our golf holes and overall atmosphere, is typically defined by mountains, rivers, streams, forests and the natural topography of the land ... there weren't any alternative choices available, when a bunch of guys with shovels were tasked with building a golf course.

In Europe, golf courses were designed even earlier than in the USA and relied on "nature" to create the holes ... they didn't move much dirt. Courses and holes were defined by god and perhaps a different length or color of the grass.

In Florida, golf courses were designed by the mechanized movement of dirt and the holes and courses, are defined by (& made necessary) by [b]housing[/b]. Most areas of Florida don't have forests, mountains, natural streams, rivers and oceans to define courses. Most every square inch of ocean front land in Florida, is devoted to Condos, not courses.

In the Northeast, golf courses were built to service the existing population and homes.

In Florida, it was the opposite. They built golf courses to sell homes.

In the case of Streamsong, the land was entirely featureless when golf course construction began. Almost every square inch of the courses was created from whole clothe, using huge earth moving equipment. There is nothing natural or real about Streamsong. They are entirely manufactured golf courses.

There is one feature that makes Streamsong "not traditional" in Florida ... changes in elevation and the lack of housing.

The changes in elevation at Streamsong, were manufactured and look it. The lack of housing is a positive, but doesn't make a golf course great. At best, Streamsong can be compared to a "parkland style" course, which are traditionally not considered great courses (there are a few good ones). The parkland course in the USA, was mostly a phenomena that arose back in WPA days. The government needed to put people to work and wanted to provide recreational options for metro areas ... voila! Parkland courses.

Specifically, the Blue course is like playing on a featureless, moonscape. You can hit the ball anywhere and can hardly miss a fairway. You need a caddie, because you won't have a clue where the hole really is, as there's no "frame of reference" to many of the holes. I'll admit that I don't think Tom Doak can design his way out of a wet paper bag, but this course is a new low, for ever Doak.

The Red course is a challenging well thought out design, with some interesting holes and some really good holes. I've played each course about 4 times. I've yet to break 85 on the Red, but have been under 80 3 out of 4 times on the Blue.

When we were kids in the Northeast, we used to play "cowboys and indians" in the woods. Hiding under trees, behind rocks and in hollows, covered with brush ... that's what golf is like in a natural environment.

Golf in Florida is more like a video game ... we can create whatever environment we want and manufacture whatever design we think will mimic the real thing.

(& I don't mean to pick on Florida specifically or characterize the Northeast as the end all, be all. It just so happens that the majority of my experience is with those 2 areas. Other areas of the country are surely similar, Arizona comes to mind.)
[/quote]

1. Part of your explanation on why there are aren't a ton a great golf courses in Florida is correct. The reality is that most of these courses were built in the "Dark Ages" of golf course architecture. The four biggest contributors to the Dark ages were....

(Im addressing Florida specifically in some instances, but many points apply to the broader spectrum)

1. The Advancement in[b] mechanized equipment[/b] (one of BrianL99s original points). While BrianL99 is pushing the minimalist view on moving earth it should be noted that there were plenty of golden age architects who were not adverse to moving dirt including Macdonald, Raynor, Banks, and Langford and Moreau. Not going to get too lost in the point because its something we agree on to an extent, but again it should be noted that Architects such as Bill Coore and Tom Doak are some are two of the people most against moving earth while building golf courses since since Donald Ross. BrianL99 is correct in noting that the site for stream song wasn't exactly put there by nature. The massive dunes, elevation changes, and ground movement are all what remains of a former phosphate mine. The Land that Red/Blue occupy had been mined and abandoned over half a century ago, and the native flora and fauna moved back in. Neither Bill Coore or Tom Doak had anything to do with artificially fabricating the dramatic landscape for golf, it was like that when they got there. The land was not flat and "featureless" before golf course construction began and the amount of earth moved by each design team to create those courses was far less than you could imagine.

2. The invention of the [b]golf cart[/b]. Part of the reason why golf course housing developments became so out of control, is thanks the golf cart. Historically courses were routed over interesting terrain, and tee boxes had to be located close the green on the previous hole. Enter the golf cart and now this no longer was necessary. You could now pass over roads and be transported between housing subdivisions where 400 yrd distances between teens and greens became acceptable. With distance between tees and greens no longer necessary housing developers began defining the land where a golf course could occupy, and how a course was routed instead of the course architect (Jack Nicklaus has his name on over 100 of these).
On the other side of the spectrum land that was too dramatic to actually build a golf course on, became readily avalaible. Now that you can design one hole in a vacuum, then design another hole 400 yrds away and just link it with a paved cart path the talent to route (routing is the single most important element in golf course design) a golf course was lost to us. Every classic Golden Age golf course is very walkable, and the same can be said of every great golf course built in the last 70 years.

3. [b]The terrain[/b]. While it isn't fair to say "there is no great golf in florida", i will agree that there isn't a ton of it. Most of the land in florida is FLAT and elevation, and ground movement are a big part of what can make a golf course great. While florida doesn't have many golden age golf courses, it does have a few quality Ross, Tillinghast, and Raynor courses but ultimately they are all limited by the land they occupy. The most annoying part of all this is that in the 50's there were plenty of sandy coastal sites with sand dunes reflecting that of Scottish Links golf still available in florida. Unforutatnely this land was all bulldozed to build buildings during Florida's population boom. For the state that has the most coast line (except for Alaska) its obnoxious how few golf courses florida has on the ocean (most of which only touch the sniff the water for a short while).

4. [b]The PGA Tour[/b]. Wether people would like to admit it the masses don't make their own decisions. Nike, UA, Taylormade and all the other equipment and clothing companies pay out millions to their players for this very purpose. The reason why everyone had a white driver was because the players on the PGA tour sold them to the masses (i assume most people understand this concept so i can move along). The Reality is that you're correct most courses in Florida were built over the last 60 years. In order to pander to the idiot wanting to play a PGA course like they see on TV golf courses were built that way for a long time (and still are). The only problem is that the PGA tour gives in and lets the players play on unexciting one dimensional courses (enter nearly every TPC _______), because thats what the players want. PGA tour players play for a living and pretty much want to play on a boring nearly identical course every week. As a whole PGA tour players are babies, and freak out when they get a bad bounce playing links golf (which is the best form of golf). Blind shots are part of the game, and originally were necessary because without golf carts the course builders had to put in a blind shot to get you across the property. Well...PGA tour players don't like blind shots (again because they play for a living and not fun) so they deemed them unfair. Now the masses have accepted this as fact because thats how the PGA tour sees it.

The same is true about greens. PGA tour players want incredibly fast flattish greens (that aren't particularly fun), but they are the type of greens that you are most likely to make putts on. PGA tour players want the green to be fast, but also incredibly soft. This is so they can land the ball 3 feet past the hole and spin it right back. While straightforward, boring, overly watered, incredibly long, nearly identical to last weeks tour venue courses are what they want on the tour it doesn't do the game any good. In an effort to copy the courses played on the PGA tour the golfing world has been subject to 40+ years of bad designs.

2. This quote is just oddly inaccurate "At best, Streamsong can be compared to a "parkland style" course, which are traditionally not considered great courses (there are a few good ones)".

In no way shape or form is Streamsong anything like a parkland course. Parkland are inland courses that are typically very green, very lush, usually has maintained rough, and is surrounded by trees. Parkland courses also typically lack the "bumpiness" in the fairways most commonly associated with links golf. Parkland courses are the most popular golf courses in the united states. 3/4 majors next year will be played on Parkland courses, so i assume that there might be a few more great ones than you think. I assume most of the golf you're playing in the NE is on a Parkland course. If you're looking for examples of parkland courses that are considered great id recommend checking out any publications top 100 or whatever list. Most of the courses listed in the US will be parkland courses. Most courses played on the PGA tour are parkland courses. Anyway...now that you know the definition of a Parkland course, i think its pretty clear that Streamsong doesn't resemble Parkland golf in anyway and has much more in common with links golf, in both design and playing conditions.

3. To address this quote "Specifically, the Blue course is like playing on a featureless, moonscape. You can hit the ball anywhere and can hardly miss a fairway. You need a caddie, because you won't have a clue where the hole really is, as there's no "frame of reference" to many of the holes. I'll admit that I don't think Tom Doak can design his way out of a wet paper bag, but this course is a new low, for ever Doak.

You're right the fairways at stream song are quite wide. As an admirer of classic golf course architecture I assumed you would enjoy this. Fairway width was a common characteristic of some of the games greatest architects including Allister Mackenzie, Donald Ross, and Seth Raynor (as well as pretty much every other golden age architect). While width does promote playability (not a bad thing), it also gives the player options. If a player does not have options then there is no strategy involved. Without strategy golf would just be a game of pure execution rather than a thinking mans game. One of the more famous examples of this would be the Olympic Club Lake Course. The Lake course is narrow and demanding that requires a specific shot to be hit on each hole. Each time you play it you pretty much have to hit the same shots. There isn't much to think about, because there pretty much is only one way to play the course. At Streamsong Width gives options, and depending on how you want to play the hole you gain an advantage to playing to a specific spot of the fairway. I'd also assume that Streamsongs width is partly due to how they virtually have no rough. Additionally extra width is required when a course plays firm and fast.

Everyone pretty much agrees that Seminole is the best course in florida. What you may not realize is that like Streamsong Blue, Seminole is a second shot golf course. Like Streamsong Blue seminole is plenty wide of the tee and not overly demanding, although there absolutely is a better side to approach the green from (depending on what shot you're going to hit). Like Streamsong Blue, Seminoles true defense is its greens. Another great example of this is Augusta National. Just like Streamsong Blue, Augusta is plenty wide off the tee, although they have been planting trees (which is kinda against the grain these days). Like Streamsong Blue, Augusta offers a preferred side/area of the fairway to play from and is mainly defended by the second shot and its wildly undulating greens. Im not saying Streamsong is just like august, because it isn't, but I'm saying that the design philosophy isn't far off and if we can recognize these great features in a classic course we should be able to do so in a Modern course.

Im not really sure how to address the "frame of reference" concern, because i don't really have that problem when i play there. Could you please explain it in more detail?

Personally i don't really care what you shot on any given day. Just because a course is a little easier doesn't make it bad in any way. Any idiot can design an overly challenging golf course (they do it all the time), but not anyone can build a fun playable golf course which is something Tom Doak does very well. Honestly he and Bill Coore do the best job applying all the qualities that are so great about golden age courses. Im a little surprised you don't enjoy his work given my limited knowledge of what you like. What other of his courses have you played?

Sorry for the longwinded and well delayed response everyone. I just felt as though its important to correct somethings, and clear things up to anyone who finds this thread in the future.

[jerebear21]

All due respect to the golden ages but Seth Raynor spent 400k and moved a ton of dirt at the course at Yale. And I loved every hole except the mundane 16 which apparently had its original green removed due to drainage problems. They moved a lot of dirt back then. Kind of odd when people say go back to the minimalist years of the golden age. Those minimalist years were spent moving tons of dirt and sand. I think I will play ss blue again after that long winded post lol.

Nothing against the blue. I just love the red. Nowhere can you play this type of course in 80 degrees temperature in December? No where.

[BrianL99]

[quote name='jerebear21' timestamp='1450737005' post='12748806']
All due respect to the golden ages but Seth Raynor spent 400k and moved a ton of dirt at the course at Yale. And I loved every hole except the mundane 16 which apparently had its original green removed due to drainage problems. They moved a lot of dirt back then. Kind of odd when people say go back to the minimalist years of the golden age. Those minimalist years were spent moving tons of dirt and sand. I think I will play ss blue again after that long winded post lol.

Nothing against the blue. I just love the red. Nowhere can you play this type of course in 80 degrees temperature in December? No where.
[/quote]

I think the Red is light years better than Blue. When are you going? I'll be Florida for 2 weeks, I'm game.

[mwmgolfx]

Amen Duffer. Both Sunningdale old and both at Walton Heath (considered classic inland links) don't have much in the way of trees - wide fairways but greens that should be approached only one way. And there isn't anyone that wouldn't consider both of them not great courses.

Other than a few minor quibbles about safety potential and minor design issues, i think both courses are exceptional and like nothing in florida. And I've played almost all the public courses in Florida.

That said, i still won't play there again. I have had issues there due to being handicapped and unable to walk well and they didn't handle the handicap issues at all well. Plus the driving range is really limited for having two courses. i've seen it full up and hate to think what would happen with major charity event with 144 golfers on shotgun on both courses. Bet you couldn't use the driving range then. And I've seen more than a few people hit balls over the end of the range. it seems too short for what it is, unless its been lengthened in the past three years. Really inadequate for the facility that its trying to be. (i've played there a number of times).

But the costs are definitely on the high side (even for top quality resort) and the service need major improvement considering the costs. And yes, I've been to Pinehurst, Bandon, Whistling Straits and Pebble so i'm familiar with comparables.

But I do recommend that people that haven't played it, play it at least once and experience it. It as others have said is like no other courses in Florida for sure. I don't think its the best public, that in my mind is TPC Sawgrass which can be as tough or as easily as staff want it to be and provides the best strategic options around. That's in my opinion. Your mileage may vary. But there is no doubt that Streamsong courses are great courses.

I am a fan of Doaks but will readily agree that this is not his upper tier of quality by any means. Pacific Dunes is his best in my mind in this country. But that's another topic and another discussion. But the Blue is a great course that requires a lot of skill and short-game quality to manage correctly, with the current greens. I loved the greens when they were kept fast but can understand that slowing them down is better for the overall golfer and pace of play.

[Alexblakk]

[quote name='TheDailyDuffer' timestamp='1450676952' post='12746014']
I stepped away from this thread, but after re reading it i realize that a few things needed to be cleared up.


[quote name='BrianL99' timestamp='1443000193' post='12354658']
I know I'm going to regret this, it's a little like trying to explain what real life is like to a 15 year old teenager, but oh well ...

Here's the "difference" in courses and why I say Florida is a wasteland for golf courses.

TIME. History. Design philosophy. Reality.

Hardly any golf course in Florida was built prior to 1950. What happened after W.W. II, beginning in the 50's? A "industrial revolution" of sorts, throughout the world. Bulldozers and mechanized earth moving equipment appeared. Blame John Deere.

The golden age of traditional golf course development in the USA, was prior to 1950. Why? A huge labor pool, needed work. The WPA program put millions to work, many of them building golf courses "by hand". Golf courses in the Northeast and many other places, were of necessity, designed using [b]natural features [/b]to delineate holes and frame the golf course.

In the Northeast, our golf holes and overall atmosphere, is typically defined by mountains, rivers, streams, forests and the natural topography of the land ... there weren't any alternative choices available, when a bunch of guys with shovels were tasked with building a golf course.

In Europe, golf courses were designed even earlier than in the USA and relied on "nature" to create the holes ... they didn't move much dirt. Courses and holes were defined by god and perhaps a different length or color of the grass.

In Florida, golf courses were designed by the mechanized movement of dirt and the holes and courses, are defined by (& made necessary) by [b]housing[/b]. Most areas of Florida don't have forests, mountains, natural streams, rivers and oceans to define courses. Most every square inch of ocean front land in Florida, is devoted to Condos, not courses.

In the Northeast, golf courses were built to service the existing population and homes.

In Florida, it was the opposite. They built golf courses to sell homes.

In the case of Streamsong, the land was entirely featureless when golf course construction began. Almost every square inch of the courses was created from whole clothe, using huge earth moving equipment. There is nothing natural or real about Streamsong. They are entirely manufactured golf courses.

There is one feature that makes Streamsong "not traditional" in Florida ... changes in elevation and the lack of housing.

The changes in elevation at Streamsong, were manufactured and look it. The lack of housing is a positive, but doesn't make a golf course great. At best, Streamsong can be compared to a "parkland style" course, which are traditionally not considered great courses (there are a few good ones). The parkland course in the USA, was mostly a phenomena that arose back in WPA days. The government needed to put people to work and wanted to provide recreational options for metro areas ... voila! Parkland courses.

Specifically, the Blue course is like playing on a featureless, moonscape. You can hit the ball anywhere and can hardly miss a fairway. You need a caddie, because you won't have a clue where the hole really is, as there's no "frame of reference" to many of the holes. I'll admit that I don't think Tom Doak can design his way out of a wet paper bag, but this course is a new low, for ever Doak.

The Red course is a challenging well thought out design, with some interesting holes and some really good holes. I've played each course about 4 times. I've yet to break 85 on the Red, but have been under 80 3 out of 4 times on the Blue.

When we were kids in the Northeast, we used to play "cowboys and indians" in the woods. Hiding under trees, behind rocks and in hollows, covered with brush ... that's what golf is like in a natural environment.

Golf in Florida is more like a video game ... we can create whatever environment we want and manufacture whatever design we think will mimic the real thing.

(& I don't mean to pick on Florida specifically or characterize the Northeast as the end all, be all. It just so happens that the majority of my experience is with those 2 areas. Other areas of the country are surely similar, Arizona comes to mind.)
[/quote]

1. Part of your explanation on why there are aren't a ton a great golf courses in Florida is correct. The reality is that most of these courses were built in the "Dark Ages" of golf course architecture. The four biggest contributors to the Dark ages were....

(Im addressing Florida specifically in some instances, but many points apply to the broader spectrum)

1. The Advancement in[b] mechanized equipment[/b] (one of BrianL99s original points). While BrianL99 is pushing the minimalist view on moving earth it should be noted that there were plenty of golden age architects who were not adverse to moving dirt including Macdonald, Raynor, Banks, and Langford and Moreau. Not going to get too lost in the point because its something we agree on to an extent, but again it should be noted that Architects such as Bill Coore and Tom Doak are some are two of the people most against moving earth while building golf courses since since Donald Ross. BrianL99 is correct in noting that the site for stream song wasn't exactly put there by nature. The massive dunes, elevation changes, and ground movement are all what remains of a former phosphate mine. The Land that Red/Blue occupy had been mined and abandoned over half a century ago, and the native flora and fauna moved back in. Neither Bill Coore or Tom Doak had anything to do with artificially fabricating the dramatic landscape for golf, it was like that when they got there. The land was not flat and "featureless" before golf course construction began and the amount of earth moved by each design team to create those courses was far less than you could imagine.

2. The invention of the [b]golf cart[/b]. Part of the reason why golf course housing developments became so out of control, is thanks the golf cart. Historically courses were routed over interesting terrain, and tee boxes had to be located close the green on the previous hole. Enter the golf cart and now this no longer was necessary. You could now pass over roads and be transported between housing subdivisions where 400 yrd distances between teens and greens became acceptable. With distance between tees and greens no longer necessary housing developers began defining the land where a golf course could occupy, and how a course was routed instead of the course architect (Jack Nicklaus has his name on over 100 of these).
On the other side of the spectrum land that was too dramatic to actually build a golf course on, became readily avalaible. Now that you can design one hole in a vacuum, then design another hole 400 yrds away and just link it with a paved cart path the talent to route (routing is the single most important element in golf course design) a golf course was lost to us. Every classic Golden Age golf course is very walkable, and the same can be said of every great golf course built in the last 70 years.

3. [b]The terrain[/b]. While it isn't fair to say "there is no great golf in florida", i will agree that there isn't a ton of it. Most of the land in florida is FLAT and elevation, and ground movement are a big part of what can make a golf course great. While florida doesn't have many golden age golf courses, it does have a few quality Ross, Tillinghast, and Raynor courses but ultimately they are all limited by the land they occupy. The most annoying part of all this is that in the 50's there were plenty of sandy coastal sites with sand dunes reflecting that of Scottish Links golf still available in florida. Unforutatnely this land was all bulldozed to build buildings during Florida's population boom. For the state that has the most coast line (except for Alaska) its obnoxious how few golf courses florida has on the ocean (most of which only touch the sniff the water for a short while).

4. [b]The PGA Tour[/b]. Wether people would like to admit it the masses don't make their own decisions. Nike, UA, Taylormade and all the other equipment and clothing companies pay out millions to their players for this very purpose. The reason why everyone had a white driver was because the players on the PGA tour sold them to the masses (i assume most people understand this concept so i can move along). The Reality is that you're correct most courses in Florida were built over the last 60 years. In order to pander to the idiot wanting to play a PGA course like they see on TV golf courses were built that way for a long time (and still are). The only problem is that the PGA tour gives in and lets the players play on unexciting one dimensional courses (enter nearly every TPC _______), because thats what the players want. PGA tour players play for a living and pretty much want to play on a boring nearly identical course every week. As a whole PGA tour players are babies, and freak out when they get a bad bounce playing links golf (which is the best form of golf). Blind shots are part of the game, and originally were necessary because without golf carts the course builders had to put in a blind shot to get you across the property. Well...PGA tour players don't like blind shots (again because they play for a living and not fun) so they deemed them unfair. Now the masses have accepted this as fact because thats how the PGA tour sees it.

The same is true about greens. PGA tour players want incredibly fast flattish greens (that aren't particularly fun), but they are the type of greens that you are most likely to make putts on. PGA tour players want the green to be fast, but also incredibly soft. This is so they can land the ball 3 feet past the hole and spin it right back. While straightforward, boring, overly watered, incredibly long, nearly identical to last weeks tour venue courses are what they want on the tour it doesn't do the game any good. In an effort to copy the courses played on the PGA tour the golfing world has been subject to 40+ years of bad designs.

2. This quote is just oddly inaccurate "At best, Streamsong can be compared to a "parkland style" course, which are traditionally not considered great courses (there are a few good ones)".

In no way shape or form is Streamsong anything like a parkland course. Parkland are inland courses that are typically very green, very lush, usually has maintained rough, and is surrounded by trees. Parkland courses also typically lack the "bumpiness" in the fairways most commonly associated with links golf. Parkland courses are the most popular golf courses in the united states. 3/4 majors next year will be played on Parkland courses, so i assume that there might be a few more great ones than you think. I assume most of the golf you're playing in the NE is on a Parkland course. If you're looking for examples of parkland courses that are considered great id recommend checking out any publications top 100 or whatever list. Most of the courses listed in the US will be parkland courses. Most courses played on the PGA tour are parkland courses. Anyway...now that you know the definition of a Parkland course, i think its pretty clear that Streamsong doesn't resemble Parkland golf in anyway and has much more in common with links golf, in both design and playing conditions.

3. To address this quote "Specifically, the Blue course is like playing on a featureless, moonscape. You can hit the ball anywhere and can hardly miss a fairway. You need a caddie, because you won't have a clue where the hole really is, as there's no "frame of reference" to many of the holes. I'll admit that I don't think Tom Doak can design his way out of a wet paper bag, but this course is a new low, for ever Doak.

You're right the fairways at stream song are quite wide. As an admirer of classic golf course architecture I assumed you would enjoy this. Fairway width was a common characteristic of some of the games greatest architects including Allister Mackenzie, Donald Ross, and Seth Raynor (as well as pretty much every other golden age architect). While width does promote playability (not a bad thing), it also gives the player options. If a player does not have options then there is no strategy involved. Without strategy golf would just be a game of pure execution rather than a thinking mans game. One of the more famous examples of this would be the Olympic Club Lake Course. The Lake course is narrow and demanding that requires a specific shot to be hit on each hole. Each time you play it you pretty much have to hit the same shots. There isn't much to think about, because there pretty much is only one way to play the course. At Streamsong Width gives options, and depending on how you want to play the hole you gain an advantage to playing to a specific spot of the fairway. I'd also assume that Streamsongs width is partly due to how they virtually have no rough. Additionally extra width is required when a course plays firm and fast.

Everyone pretty much agrees that Seminole is the best course in florida. What you may not realize is that like Streamsong Blue, Seminole is a second shot golf course. Like Streamsong Blue seminole is plenty wide of the tee and not overly demanding, although there absolutely is a better side to approach the green from (depending on what shot you're going to hit). Like Streamsong Blue, Seminoles true defense is its greens. Another great example of this is Augusta National. Just like Streamsong Blue, Augusta is plenty wide off the tee, although they have been planting trees (which is kinda against the grain these days). Like Streamsong Blue, Augusta offers a preferred side/area of the fairway to play from and is mainly defended by the second shot and its wildly undulating greens. Im not saying Streamsong is just like august, because it isn't, but I'm saying that the design philosophy isn't far off and if we can recognize these great features in a classic course we should be able to do so in a Modern course.

Im not really sure how to address the "frame of reference" concern, because i don't really have that problem when i play there. Could you please explain it in more detail?

Personally i don't really care what you shot on any given day. Just because a course is a little easier doesn't make it bad in any way. Any idiot can design an overly challenging golf course (they do it all the time), but not anyone can build a fun playable golf course which is something Tom Doak does very well. Honestly he and Bill Coore do the best job applying all the qualities that are so great about golden age courses. Im a little surprised you don't enjoy his work given my limited knowledge of what you like. What other of his courses have you played?

Sorry for the longwinded and well delayed response everyone. I just felt as though its important to correct somethings, and clear things up to anyone who finds this thread in the future.
[/quote]

Thanks. Great and enlightening post !

[EKELLY]

Just finished playing my USGA mid-am qualifier there yesterday. I missed qualifying by 2 shots.... can kick myself for the stupid dropped shots.

 

Played the Red course. I was very excited to play there. It is ranked #2 in the state you can play, right behind TPC Sawgrass. Having played it twice now (1 practice round), I am going to have to say that I was incredibly underwhelmed by the course. Maybe I was just expecting to much. Yes, it is different. Yes fairway and green conditions are great. But somehow the course just feels and looks unfinished. You can argue that it was intentionally done that way by the designers. I will give you a simple example. On the front of number 4 green is a piece of replaced sod. In the middle of the piece of sod is a huge "crows feet" weed. Now you could say : "so what, it's 1 weed." But it is a metaphor for the rest of the course. The range is complete... but unfinished. The holes are complete... but feel unfinished.

 

Be prepared to pay A LOT for anything there. The cheapest item at the halfway house to eat is $10. You have a choice of Chipotle sausage on a slice of bread, or a piece of pork on a stick. A small fountain soda is $3.

 

Also, it is literally in the boondocks. You won't have cell reception for many miles of travel. You will pass numerous homes proudly flying the southern flag. The nearest hotel (off site), was 20 miles away in Bowling Green. There are NO places to go eat anywhere within a 40 mile radius. You are left with the FiftyNine restaurant at the club house, or the restaurant and the hotel (did I mentioned they were super expensive)?

 

Let's also talk fore caddies. Not a fan. You are forced to take one. They are literally just someone you pay $60 for to give you a yardage to the pin.

 

I can honestly say I have now been there, and done that. I will return to play the Blue course if they ever have an event on the course, but other than that, I have no desire to return.

 

I have had the good fortune of playing Beth Page Black 4 times. I get goose bumps every time I get there. It is half the price of Streamsong..... and a MUCH better experience.

 

End of whaa!

I grew up on the Black Course. I think people read to much into the fact that it's anything other than 18 holes of golf. Mosaic did the same thing they did at Chambers Bay, they left the mining piles in place, and went through and built some golf holes.....It was built for the TRUE resort feeling, which is a dying industry. Virtually most of those out in the woods resorts are either dead, dying, or run down. Funny thing is, ALOT of the infamous courses have not blown me away. (Bay Hill -lived there), (Sawgrass - 2 great holes), (Pine Valley - certainly not BETTER than the Black or #2), and I've played the best clubs in NY, NJ, Penn......I love the aura of Streamsong, and I do like the golf, but the fishing is good, spa is GREAT, food ids GREAT.....I repsect your opinion Bro, I do............Where I come from in NY, the resorts are pricey, but as my old man says, it keeps the riff-raff away........