Macgregor Reissue Question...

[tlhorsh]

Since i found the Macgregor 3wood the other day, I would really like to find a Magregor driver. I know it has been discussed here before, and I've combed the "volumes" here on the classic forums, but question is...

 

I know the reissue of Macgregor woods all end with a T. So how do these woods compare, I know they are all over the bay and pretty cheap respectively.

 

thanks guys.

[freddiec]

Like most things the copys were not as good as the originals. Doesn't mean you don't have a nice playable wood. Post a pic, that would help.

[Ironmaster Oddities]

Not all MacGregor woods ending in T are remakes. Before 1958, many models had a T after the model#. The T indicated that the grip was a molded on cord lined grip ,instead of leather.. I would guess that around half the Macs from the late 1940's up to 1957 had cord T grips. The T should for Tourney Grip. It was a proprietary grip that they promoted as alifetime grip. Fyi, they are a bear to remove,

Uncle Bob

[tlhorsh]

Like most things the copys were not as good as the originals. Doesn't mean you don't have a nice playable wood. Post a pic, that would help.

 

thanks freddieC...i'm still in the looking stage at this point...

[birly-shirly]

I think it depends on what you're looking for.

 

I sometimes wonder whether there isn't a bit of survivorship bias here. Meaning that the classic woods that are still going strong 40 or 50 years after they were made are obviously pretty stout and may have remained in circulation as players for a very good reason, but aren't necessarily perfectly representative of all the clubs that were made in that era.

 

I don't doubt that if you're talking "collectability" then vintage Macs are where it's at. But if it's a good playing club that you're after, then that changes things.

 

There is such variation in the combination of natural materials and hand crafting that I'm not sure you can safely assume that you'll find a "better" wood in one era rather than another. You do narrow the field somewhat if you're specifically after a MacGregor driver to match your 3 wood. Even so, I would wager that the tour players in the 80s who were playing vintage drivers did so after testing multiple clubs, perhaps dozens, to find just one that they really liked.

 

I think, if you're searching for a driver to play, you'll need to sample widely in order to find one that really works for your swing and your eye. Personally, I wouldn't do anything to narrow the field of candidates whether by era of manufacture or brand. Just in terms of availability, I would guess that you're more likely to find a club that you really like from more recent decades since there are more of them around in the first place and because they're more affordable to trial.

[Ripvanwinkle]

I have a theory about this which could only be shared on this site...:) The conventional wisdom is that the MacGregor persimmon woods from the early 50's are by far the best because the quality of the raw persimmon was excellent. As the trees were over harvested in the 60's and 70's during the big golf boom the quality of the wood declined and the clubs are not as collectible.From what i can piece together, there was also a warehouse fire in Louisville in the late 50's or early 60's where a large amount of the turning blocks were created and air dried. So a large amount of good persimmon that was properly air dried was lost. Too many clubs were made in the mid 60's and 70's from "green" wood. By the time the 80's rolled around there finally was some properly aged persimmon available hence some very nice clubs made by Roger Cleveland and Dave Woods. My take is that overtime, some of those MacGregor re-issues of the 80's, along with Toney Penna, Joe Powell and even Powerbilt were much better clubs then anyone thought at the time.

[Fellaheen51]

Every Mac reissue I've seen listed (someone pointed this out to me awhile back) had the "T" after the model number on the sole plate. (i.e. 693T). Never played one so I cannot vouch for playability. But, it can't be that bad, if it is a periodic player and bought for a good value. Especially if your just beginning to get acquainted with playing persimmon.

 

The top examples of 50's MT persimmons are prohibitively expensive in my book. Your battling the collectors and aficionados for the prime examples and even the resto ones get a pretty high price. While lovely to look at, beyond my price range range for something that would only be used occasionally. And not into the collecting of persimmon drivers and fairways.

 

I assume its the dead of winter in PA, just like here in MI. So you do not need to rush in to anything. Do some browsing, learn the "lay of the land" a bit for what you might be looking for. Do you want an exact match or something of the same relative age? Unless you want to perform resto, find one in reasonably good condition. May be easier to find a nice set for a good price rather than trying to match the existing 3W.

 

Found a really nice Mac Tourney Custom set (D, 3, 4, 5) at an estate sale a year plus ago for $20. Know idea of actual age (assuming 80's). Beautiful heads, may have been restored (?) because they were in great shape. Can't speak to how they play compared to the "classic" 50's MT. But they most defiantly fill the bag out quite nicely with a playable set of persimmon woods. Furthermore, the golf buds wouldn't know the difference, whether they were 80's or 50's persimmon woods!

 

When it comes to playing persimmon, I like hitting the fairways. The D remains a struggle. My .02

[teevons]

the early Macgregors with T was stamped on toe in the wood, the later models 70-80s the T was stamped on the soleplate

[freddiec]

I agree with a lot of what RipVan says above. Wood Bros custom made clubs for the best players and these players got exactly what they wanted and they were made out of old growth persimmon. Most of the clubs played by the great players who used those old Macs, ie, M85s, 693, ect. those clubs were altered in one way or another, refaced, re finished, re shafted, ect before they were played. Wood Bros was able to start with a new block and shape it to the players preference. B. Langer one of the most finicky player of all time , a pure pefectionist used a Wood Bros for over 5 to 8 years, Won the Masters with it and nearly won the Open that same year. Thats a great testament right there.

 

The thing about the 1980s, early 90s, ect guys had woods in their bags that they were attached too. Look at Seve, he had that Mac PT1W he was so faithful too. Dave Wood made a number of drivers for Seve, which never made it into Primetime and Seve couldn't hit a fairway, go figure. There were also numerous mediocre tour players who didn't want to switch from their driver. Once a player was comfortable with a club in their bag, it wasn't coming out in a lot of cases.

[xgolfx]

Many MacGregor woods which ONLY offerred rubber grips unless special ordered had no T anywhere on the club.George Bayer BW1W specs show black rubber 10" Tourney size only.In fact, none of the woods for 1965 have a T stamped on them including Armour, Penna,Suggs,MT, or DX

 

CHARLEY PENNA

[SteveNZ]

The T in the model number for the re-issues isn't a hard and fast rule. I have an 80s remake of a 945W - stamped Tourney Custom on the crown. Sole plate pictured...

 

 

[birly-shirly]

I have a theory about this which could only be shared on this site... :) The conventional wisdom is that the MacGregor persimmon woods from the early 50's are by far the best because the quality of the raw persimmon was excellent. As the trees were over harvested in the 60's and 70's during the big golf boom the quality of the wood declined and the clubs are not as collectible.From what i can piece together, there was also a warehouse fire in Louisville in the late 50's or early 60's where a large amount of the turning blocks were created and air dried. So a large amount of good persimmon that was properly air dried was lost. Too many clubs were made in the mid 60's and 70's from "green" wood. By the time the 80's rolled around there finally was some properly aged persimmon available hence some very nice clubs made by Roger Cleveland and Dave Woods. My take is that overtime, some of those MacGregor re-issues of the 80's, along with Toney Penna, Joe Powell and even Powerbilt were much better clubs then anyone thought at the time.

 

I find this pretty persuasive. Golf gear, by its very nature, seems to lend itself to the lore of "magic material" - whether it's old growth persimmon, or Miura forgings, BeCu, or the special scrap that made the early DBAPs.

 

To be sure, if you're talking about material characteristics that have some bearing on the structural integrity of a clubhead over time, then that might be a different story - but more often I think we're talking more about rarity value than any objective playing advantage, and if the differences are perceptible at all, likely to be swamped by a change in grip or shaft. In any event, and within reasonable limits, I believe that playing differences are far more likely to be affected by design considerations and the quality of workmanship than by the quality of underlying raw material.

[BrianL99]

I held Jack Nicklaus' 945 Drive in my hand, at the U.S. Open at Winged Foot in 1984.

 

Jack Jr. caddied for Jack at the open and we spent 10 or 15 minutes talking about Jack's clubs while Nicklaus was on the practice putting green.

 

Jack Jr. told me that Jack's 945W had been put back together with epoxy, twice. Which leaves me to believe that the actual "wood" in those old persimmons wasn't that critical from a playability standpoint.

 

From a sales standpoint, "grain" was somewhat important, but I think it was more visual than performance characteristic.

[HoganApexBlades]

The T in the model number for the re-issues isn't a hard and fast rule. I have an 80s remake of a 945W - stamped Tourney Custom on the crown. Sole plate pictured...

 

 

 

I have the exact same driver - a remake of Jack's Mac TA E-O-M 945. I love that club!

[HoganApexBlades]

The T in the model number for the re-issues isn't a hard and fast rule. I have an 80s remake of a 945W - stamped Tourney Custom on the crown. Sole plate pictured...

 

 

 

Steve - can you post a crown and face shot?

[majic]

I feel that in a persimmon driver the key points the player looked for was shape (loft included) and shaft.

Looks was key and over time the best players had a certain look they demanded.

This is sorta true today but with the money being paid to a player to use a titanium driver compared to paying his own money to buy a persimmon head I think the player in the old days was more picky.

[SteveNZ]

The T in the model number for the re-issues isn't a hard and fast rule. I have an 80s remake of a 945W - stamped Tourney Custom on the crown. Sole plate pictured...

 

 

 

Steve - can you post a crown and face shot?

 

Here you go:

 

http://www.golfwrx.com/forums/topic/1132087-macgregor-m85w-find-on-ebay/#entry10910163

 

I'm less than thrilled with the re-finish (like that when I got it) - a bit glossy and dark I think.

[freddiec]

An interesting story told to me by Dave Wood. G.Player was playing a practice round at Augusta with J. Sluman. On the back nine both Gary and Jeff on each driver hole hit Jeff's Texan. Later that day Gary called Dave and insisted he make him the same exact driver and ship it over night to Augusta, which Dave was able to do. He didn't hear back from Gary and a couple of months later spoke to him. Gary said he loves the driver and brings it everywhere with him, but is not gaming it because as he explained to Dave it takes a very long time for a player to get used to a new driver and put it in the game bag...

[HoganApexBlades]

The T in the model number for the re-issues isn't a hard and fast rule. I have an 80s remake of a 945W - stamped Tourney Custom on the crown. Sole plate pictured...

 

 

 

Steve - can you post a crown and face shot?

 

Here you go:

 

http://www.golfwrx.com/forums/topic/1132087-macgregor-m85w-find-on-ebay/#entry10910163

 

I'm less than thrilled with the re-finish (like that when I got it) - a bit glossy and dark I think.

 

Thanks Steve!

[mocokid]

I held Jack Nicklaus' 945 Drive in my hand, at the U.S. Open at Winged Foot in 1984.

 

Jack Jr. caddied for Jack at the open and we spent 10 or 15 minutes talking about Jack's clubs while Nicklaus was on the practice putting green.

 

Jack Jr. told me that Jack's 945W had been put back together with epoxy, twice. Which leaves me to believe that the actual "wood" in those old persimmons wasn't that critical from a playability standpoint.

 

From a sales standpoint, "grain" was somewhat important, but I think it was more visual than performance characteristic.

 

How old was Jack's driver - the 945 ?

[HoganApexBlades]

I held Jack Nicklaus' 945 Drive in my hand, at the U.S. Open at Winged Foot in 1984.

 

Jack Jr. caddied for Jack at the open and we spent 10 or 15 minutes talking about Jack's clubs while Nicklaus was on the practice putting green.

 

Jack Jr. told me that Jack's 945W had been put back together with epoxy, twice. Which leaves me to believe that the actual "wood" in those old persimmons wasn't that critical from a playability standpoint.

 

From a sales standpoint, "grain" was somewhat important, but I think it was more visual than performance characteristic.

 

How old was Jack's driver - the 945 ?

 

I read that it was either a '54 or '55 model. Maybe Brian was told definitively by Jackie.

[BrianL99]

I held Jack Nicklaus' 945 Drive in my hand, at the U.S. Open at Winged Foot in 1984.

 

Jack Jr. caddied for Jack at the open and we spent 10 or 15 minutes talking about Jack's clubs while Nicklaus was on the practice putting green.

 

Jack Jr. told me that Jack's 945W had been put back together with epoxy, twice. Which leaves me to believe that the actual "wood" in those old persimmons wasn't that critical from a playability standpoint.

 

From a sales standpoint, "grain" was somewhat important, but I think it was more visual than performance characteristic.

 

How old was Jack's driver - the 945 ?

 

I read that it was either a '54 or '55 model. Maybe Brian was told definitively by Jackie.

 

Back in the day, it was hard to quantify what year a club was, nor did it matter much. Most of the clubs were only issued or appeared in the Catalog for specific years, but we didn't live in a day where everyone wanted to buy the "latest and the greatest" and the model year wasn't really relevant.

 

As most of the people in this thread know, there were 3 MacGregor drivers that predominated on the tour. 693's, 945's & M85's. Everyone had their favorite (I played a M75), but as Tad Moore pointed out, it was more related to "head shape" than most anything else. The shape, loft, bulge, roll and face depth could be different from club to club and certainly from model to model.

 

Jackie did tell me that Jack had (3) 945's. The first one he had used was no longer salvageable and he had replaced it with the one he was using in 1984 ... which was his "2nd favorite".

 

We lived in played in a world, where the connection of a player to his driver, putter and wedges, was more mystical than performance driven. We didn't have Trackman or fast video analysis to tell us how a specific club performed, we decided on our favorite by more esoteric criteria.

 

Just as an aside to the Driver discussion, it was rumored that Jack had over 50 George Low Wizards and would pay $500 for any one that came along. I never tested that theory, as we could get over $500/each in the Japan market. When it comes to Drivers, the most valuable Driver for the Japan market was the 693/LFF. I'm not sure why it was worth more than the 945, probably because of its rarity ... hardly anyone could hit the damn thing :)

[Shallowface]

I'm currently reading "Let 'Er Rip" by Gardner Dickinson, published in 1994.

 

He wrote that Toney Penna had "LFF" on his license plate!

[BrianL99]

I'm currently reading "Let 'Er Rip" by Gardner Dickinson, published in 1994.

 

He wrote that Toney Penna had "LFF" on his license plate!

 

I'm sure Tony's nephew will chime in.

 

If I'm not mistaken, he claims the the letters stood for "Let the F____k_ r Fly".

 

Conventional wisdom at the time, said the initials stood for "Large F__k_ing Face".

[mocokid]

great topic. It's absolutely true, top pros and ams would select a driver based on visual look and feel, the quant stuff was way less important. And they would test many before picking one or 2. Lots of clubs even found in used club bins.

[xgolfx]

I'm currently reading "Let 'Er Rip" by Gardner Dickinson, published in 1994.

 

He wrote that Toney Penna had "LFF" on his license plate!

 

I never saw LFF on the plate, but it is possible

 

The initials stood for LET THE F. R FLY

 

THAT I CAN GUARANTEE

 

CHARLEY PENNA

[rex235]

Charley-

 

Once I had heard the initials stood for "LONG FLYING F####R", but if anyone would know, it's you.

 

Recently my friend found an M09 LFF at of all places, a flea market. He intends to play it this coming year in our "Classic" Sundays.

Will snap a photo when able.

 

My question is- Does anyone have an idea how many original Left handed M09 LFFs were made in the '50s?

 

(Full disclosure- Though the MacGregor catalog states "RH Only" for the '50s, have found only one original - the one I have posted is a copy)

[xgolfx]

some of the MacGregor staffers, including the home pro staff, had LFF stamped on their drivers. It was not exclusive to the MO9

 

CHARLEY PENNA

[rex235]

some of the MacGregor staffers, including the home pro staff, had LFF stamped on their drivers. It was not exclusive to the MO9

 

CHARLEY PENNA

 

Charley-

 

Had never heard "LFF" was not exclusive to the M09 Jumbo model.

 

Thanks again for providing that historical tidbit.

 

"two books easy"......

[JasChahal]

On 1/13/2016 at 6:21 AM, BrianL99 said:

 

I'm sure Tony's nephew will chime in.

 

If I'm not mistaken, he claims the the letters stood for "Let the F____k_ r Fly".

 

Conventional wisdom at the time, said the initials stood for "Large F__k_ing Face".

Yesterday I met with a senior client (PRO AM club designer and fitter) and he was showing me all the clubs he has stored in his garage; explaining the difference of clubs vs irons. He showed me the persimmon club-MacGregor Jumbo LFF driver and told me LFF refers to “Let the F—k-r Fly” and had a good laugh about it. He’s in his late 80’s and would always be in the golf arenas of Pebble Beach. So maybe it’s was common on the course to use the slang version inside of the convention term perhaps?

 

Sorry if I referred to any term improperly I’m not knowledgeable about golf but found it interesting enough to look on the internet if people were conversing about this 🙂