Skytrack

[Scottie68]

All this cost up pricing is irrelevant when it comes to Trackman. The are the premier brand used at the highest levels. Their price is what it based upon their brand (same for Ferarri), not cost up.

[the bishop]

the es16 was the big thing that came out last year at the show and it still is flawed and not worth the cost they are asking.

 

You could likely buy a GC2 and have it refurbished for less than 4k total. If you have the extra money then that is the tried and true product.

 

I have a skytrak which I love just for reference.

What is Ernest Sports asking for the ES 16?

[dap]

All this cost up pricing is irrelevant when it comes to Trackman. The are the premier brand used at the highest levels. Their price is what it based upon their brand (same for Ferarri), not cost up.

 

Good luck to them they can get away with such ludicrous prices but their days are numbered and they know it so why not take advantage until then. I reckon in 5 years or less, there will be systems just as accurate and reliable for a 10th of the price. The Flightscope right now is almost as good for 20k less.

[leekgolf]

All this cost up pricing is irrelevant when it comes to Trackman. The are the premier brand used at the highest levels. Their price is what it based upon their brand (same for Ferarri), not cost up.

 

Good luck to them they can get away with such ludicrous prices but their days are numbered and they know it so why not take advantage until then. I reckon in 5 years or less, there will be systems just as accurate and reliable for a 10th of the price. The Flightscope right now is almost as good for 20k less.

All this cost up pricing is irrelevant when it comes to Trackman. The are the premier brand used at the highest levels. Their price is what it based upon their brand (same for Ferarri), not cost up.

 

Good luck to them they can get away with such ludicrous prices but their days are numbered and they know it so why not take advantage until then. I reckon in 5 years or less, there will be systems just as accurate and reliable for a 10th of the price. The Flightscope right now is almost as good for 20k less.

 

Did you happen to take any Econ classes in college?

[dap]

All this cost up pricing is irrelevant when it comes to Trackman. The are the premier brand used at the highest levels. Their price is what it based upon their brand (same for Ferarri), not cost up.

 

Good luck to them they can get away with such ludicrous prices but their days are numbered and they know it so why not take advantage until then. I reckon in 5 years or less, there will be systems just as accurate and reliable for a 10th of the price. The Flightscope right now is almost as good for 20k less.

All this cost up pricing is irrelevant when it comes to Trackman. The are the premier brand used at the highest levels. Their price is what it based upon their brand (same for Ferarri), not cost up.

 

Good luck to them they can get away with such ludicrous prices but their days are numbered and they know it so why not take advantage until then. I reckon in 5 years or less, there will be systems just as accurate and reliable for a 10th of the price. The Flightscope right now is almost as good for 20k less.

 

Did you happen to take any Econ classes in college?

I happen to be a graduate from the school of common sense. Lol

[leekgolf]

Imagine you own the only launch monitor in the state and it's for sale! There are a number of golf teachers and clubfitters who really want this monitor for their business because it will allow them to do a better job and attract more customers. You decide you want $500 for your launch monitor. I come over to take a look at it. It's exactly what I want because I'm a clubfitter and with it I can make a lot of money. I offer $500 and just as you are about to accept the deal, Scottie 68 walks in. Scottie wants your monitor and it is perfect for his business, so he says- hey wait, I'll pay a thousand for that monitor. Why? Because he thinks he can make money from it and it's the only one. But then Dornstar comes over, and he believes that monitor will help him really improve and give him a shot at the Hillsborough County Amateur and if he wins that - maybe he does have the talent to get on TOUR! Dorn says, "I'll pay you $1,200" Now you are pretty happy with this deal, except I want it and say, hey, I was here first. What do you do?

 

If you're like many of us, you sell the monitor to me for more than $1,200 and then GET ANOTHER then another etc. You will keep raising the price until you can't sell your monitors because you are asking $30,000 for them and the cost is too high for the instructors and clubfitters to be able to make money. What do you do next? Put them on sale. Reduce the price until you find the price that you can regularly sell them.

 

There was not one word about cost in the example, because cost doesn't determine selling price, the market does. Cost determines whether you can make a profit or even stay in business.

 

This is what known as freemarket capitalism. In reality it's a bit more complicated than that but price is determined by supply and demand.

[leekgolf]

And to add to that, I purchased a Flightscope, not a Trackman because I thought the cost of a Flightscope was more aligned with my idea of value than the cost of a Trackman. If Trackman's ideal customers begin to feel that $18,000-$30,000 is more than they are willing to pay, then Trackman will adjust the price to meet the market.

[Bigmean]

Well, I got a gc2 at a price I couldn't say no to, so I did that. I still think that the future is looking pretty good for lower pricing on this stuff.

[sethdavidsdad]

Well, I got a gc2 at a price I couldn't say no to, so I did that. I still think that the future is looking pretty good for lower pricing on this stuff.

Did you end up getting one from golfsmith?

[dap]

Imagine you own the only launch monitor in the state and it's for sale! There are a number of golf teachers and clubfitters who really want this monitor for their business because it will allow them to do a better job and attract more customers. You decide you want $500 for your launch monitor. I come over to take a look at it. It's exactly what I want because I'm a clubfitter and with it I can make a lot of money. I offer $500 and just as you are about to accept the deal, Scottie 68 walks in. Scottie wants your monitor and it is perfect for his business, so he says- hey wait, I'll pay a thousand for that monitor. Why? Because he thinks he can make money from it and it's the only one. But then Dornstar comes over, and he believes that monitor will help him really improve and give him a shot at the Hillsborough County Amateur and if he wins that - maybe he does have the talent to get on TOUR! Dorn says, "I'll pay you $1,200" Now you are pretty happy with this deal, except I want it and say, hey, I was here first. What do you do?

 

If you're like many of us, you sell the monitor to me for more than $1,200 and then GET ANOTHER then another etc. You will keep raising the price until you can't sell your monitors because you are asking $30,000 for them and the cost is too high for the instructors and clubfitters to be able to make money. What do you do next? Put them on sale. Reduce the price until you find the price that you can regularly sell them.

 

There was not one word about cost in the example, because cost doesn't determine selling price, the market does. Cost determines whether you can make a profit or even stay in business.

 

This is what known as freemarket capitalism. In reality it's a bit more complicated than that but price is determined by supply and demand.

Certainly not disputing any of what you said. My common sense just tells me that Trackman is way over priced for what you are actually getting. The huge markup is just for their reputation for being the best and instructors and clubfitters will want the Trackman name to attract customers.

 

Is the technology that much better than Flightscope and GC2 with hmt combined?

[Scottie68]

All this cost up pricing is irrelevant when it comes to Trackman. The are the premier brand used at the highest levels. Their price is what it based upon their brand (same for Ferarri), not cost up.

 

Good luck to them they can get away with such ludicrous prices but their days are numbered and they know it so why not take advantage until then. I reckon in 5 years or less, there will be systems just as accurate and reliable for a 10th of the price. The Flightscope right now is almost as good for 20k less.

 

They will adjust price as needed. Always easier to reduce price than raise it!

[dap]

Well, I got a gc2 at a price I couldn't say no to, so I did that. I still think that the future is looking pretty good for lower pricing on this stuff.

 

I think it will be like plasma TVs. They cost a fortune when they first came on the market but were dirt cheap years later. How cheap launch monitors become depends on how many golfers want one. Of course the more you sell the cheaper it will be to build one. The hardware alone isn't that sophisticated. Doppler radar and high speed cameras have been around for decades. It's the software that's hard to get right.

[PaulGT3]

Dap your common sense tingling during your econ lesson was more than correct. Besides the market determining the cost there is the cost of technology to do the job. I am a retired scientist and i worked for the Navy for 30 years doing things that are very similar to what ball monitors do except on things that are much faster and change direction unlike golf balls that follow a trajectory with spin. 1st and 2nd year physics students solve these very problems every day for homework. I dont know why some of the newer camera companies havent used their products to solve this problem. The software is already available. Anyone who can use MATLAB can take the data from the imagery and the doppler and write the software to make it accurate.

We were trying to do telemetry on things that not only went faster but could make 40g turns, and we were using off the shelf technology. Trackman better enjoy their $20,000 pricetags because its only a matter of time before these $300 launch monitors can be just as accurate as trackman.

I get the feeling that the Skytrack will be just as good as trackman in a few months and may even lower their prices.

[iteachgolf]

Dap your common sense tingling during your econ lesson was more than correct. Besides the market determining the cost there is the cost of technology to do the job. I am a retired scientist and i worked for the Navy for 30 years doing things that are very similar to what ball monitors do except on things that are much faster and change direction unlike golf balls that follow a trajectory with spin. 1st and 2nd year physics students solve these very problems every day for homework. I dont know why some of the newer camera companies havent used their products to solve this problem. The software is already available. Anyone who can use MATLAB can take the data from the imagery and the doppler and write the software to make it accurate.

We were trying to do telemetry on things that not only went faster but could make 40g turns, and we were using off the shelf technology. Trackman better enjoy their $20,000 pricetags because its only a matter of time before these $300 launch monitors can be just as accurate as trackman.

I get the feeling that the Skytrack will be just as good as trackman in a few months and may even lower their prices.

 

Again do some research. Your ignorance here is massive. Skytrak measures ZERO club data. It cannot be as good as Trackman as it measures half the data parameters. They aren't even comparable. GC2 with HMT measures things very differently but provides comparable data sets. But it cost $12k+ as well.

[dap]

I think there is a huge market for launch monitors if they become affordable for the average golfer. It's not just about the data but a super accurate and realistic simulator for home use. I would buy one for sure mainly to use as a simulator to play all the courses around the world.

[PaulGT3]

Dap your common sense tingling during your econ lesson was more than correct. Besides the market determining the cost there is the cost of technology to do the job. I am a retired scientist and i worked for the Navy for 30 years doing things that are very similar to what ball monitors do except on things that are much faster and change direction unlike golf balls that follow a trajectory with spin. 1st and 2nd year physics students solve these very problems every day for homework. I dont know why some of the newer camera companies havent used their products to solve this problem. The software is already available. Anyone who can use MATLAB can take the data from the imagery and the doppler and write the software to make it accurate.

We were trying to do telemetry on things that not only went faster but could make 40g turns, and we were using off the shelf technology. Trackman better enjoy their $20,000 pricetags because its only a matter of time before these $300 launch monitors can be just as accurate as trackman.

I get the feeling that the Skytrack will be just as good as trackman in a few months and may even lower their prices.

 

Again do some research. Your ignorance here is massive. Skytrak measures ZERO club data. It cannot be as good as Trackman as it measures half the data parameters. They aren't even comparable. GC2 with HMT measures things very differently but provides comparable data sets. But it cost $12k+ as well.

 

My ignorance isnt massive infact I know the tech business alot better than you probably do unless you have 40 years experience in tracking objects that are VERY fast. My only point about Skytrack is at a decent price point and if they are smart they will change their tech solution to solve the problem quickly at their price point. It has nothing to do with the way they measure stuff now or how their software is written at this point. Its what they do next, that is important. IF they dont do it someone will and at a price point that is less than $1000. GPS units were $100,000 in 1985 and weighed 20 pounds. AND THAT WAS NEW TECHNOLOGY. This is old hat and has existed for decades. Now that the demand is rising these will hit the market at an affordable price SOONER than LATER.

It is YOU sir that is ignorant if you dont think this is going to change and fast for the betterment of ALL golfers just not pros

[Scottie68]

Dap your common sense tingling during your econ lesson was more than correct. Besides the market determining the cost there is the cost of technology to do the job. I am a retired scientist and i worked for the Navy for 30 years doing things that are very similar to what ball monitors do except on things that are much faster and change direction unlike golf balls that follow a trajectory with spin. 1st and 2nd year physics students solve these very problems every day for homework. I dont know why some of the newer camera companies havent used their products to solve this problem. The software is already available. Anyone who can use MATLAB can take the data from the imagery and the doppler and write the software to make it accurate.

We were trying to do telemetry on things that not only went faster but could make 40g turns, and we were using off the shelf technology. Trackman better enjoy their $20,000 pricetags because its only a matter of time before these $300 launch monitors can be just as accurate as trackman.

I get the feeling that the Skytrack will be just as good as trackman in a few months and may even lower their prices.

 

Again do some research. Your ignorance here is massive. Skytrak measures ZERO club data. It cannot be as good as Trackman as it measures half the data parameters. They aren't even comparable. GC2 with HMT measures things very differently but provides comparable data sets. But it cost $12k+ as well.

 

Agree with the capability difference.

 

I'm thinking Skytrak with a SkyPro type device. Obviously the SkyPro type devices have limitations, and having the data on two different systems can be a hassle, but a pretty cost effective solution for launch and club data?

[iteachgolf]

Dap your common sense tingling during your econ lesson was more than correct. Besides the market determining the cost there is the cost of technology to do the job. I am a retired scientist and i worked for the Navy for 30 years doing things that are very similar to what ball monitors do except on things that are much faster and change direction unlike golf balls that follow a trajectory with spin. 1st and 2nd year physics students solve these very problems every day for homework. I dont know why some of the newer camera companies havent used their products to solve this problem. The software is already available. Anyone who can use MATLAB can take the data from the imagery and the doppler and write the software to make it accurate.

We were trying to do telemetry on things that not only went faster but could make 40g turns, and we were using off the shelf technology. Trackman better enjoy their $20,000 pricetags because its only a matter of time before these $300 launch monitors can be just as accurate as trackman.

I get the feeling that the Skytrack will be just as good as trackman in a few months and may even lower their prices.

 

Again do some research. Your ignorance here is massive. Skytrak measures ZERO club data. It cannot be as good as Trackman as it measures half the data parameters. They aren't even comparable. GC2 with HMT measures things very differently but provides comparable data sets. But it cost $12k+ as well.

 

My ignorance isnt massive infact I know the tech business alot better than you probably do unless you have 40 years experience in tracking objects that are VERY fast. My only point about Skytrack is at a decent price point and if they are smart they will change their tech solution to solve the problem quickly at their price point. It has nothing to do with the way they measure stuff now or how their software is written at this point. Its what they do next, that is important. IF they dont do it someone will and at a price point that is less than $1000. GPS units were $100,000 in 1985 and weighed 20 pounds. AND THAT WAS NEW TECHNOLOGY. This is old hat and has existed for decades. Now that the demand is rising these will hit the market at an affordable price SOONER than LATER.

It is YOU sir that is ignorant if you dont think this is going to change and fast for the betterment of ALL golfers just not pros

 

Launch monitors have been around for over 25 years. Vector came out with a camera based launch monitor well over 10 years ago. In fact Skytrak bought their patents to base their system on. It cost the exact same price in 2006 when it was brand new as the Skytrak does now. The technology has been out for over a decade and the prices have NOT gone down, in fact have gone UP. Eventually will prices decrease? Of course. But technology and accuracy will improve as well and a newer version will come out. Launch monitors will not become $500. A single stereoscopic high speed camera system will cost $500 with no software. And you'd need two of them to measure club and ball data. the price point will decrease to an extent but not anywhere close to what you're discussing anytime soon. You can buy an older vector launch monitor that Skytrak based their system on for around $300 and add simulator software. But it's a 10 year old outdated, less accurate, and out of warranty product.

[iteachgolf]

Dap your common sense tingling during your econ lesson was more than correct. Besides the market determining the cost there is the cost of technology to do the job. I am a retired scientist and i worked for the Navy for 30 years doing things that are very similar to what ball monitors do except on things that are much faster and change direction unlike golf balls that follow a trajectory with spin. 1st and 2nd year physics students solve these very problems every day for homework. I dont know why some of the newer camera companies havent used their products to solve this problem. The software is already available. Anyone who can use MATLAB can take the data from the imagery and the doppler and write the software to make it accurate.

We were trying to do telemetry on things that not only went faster but could make 40g turns, and we were using off the shelf technology. Trackman better enjoy their $20,000 pricetags because its only a matter of time before these $300 launch monitors can be just as accurate as trackman.

I get the feeling that the Skytrack will be just as good as trackman in a few months and may even lower their prices.

 

Again do some research. Your ignorance here is massive. Skytrak measures ZERO club data. It cannot be as good as Trackman as it measures half the data parameters. They aren't even comparable. GC2 with HMT measures things very differently but provides comparable data sets. But it cost $12k+ as well.

 

Agree with the capability difference.

 

I'm thinking Skytrak with a SkyPro type device. Obviously the SkyPro type devices have limitations, and having the data on two different systems can be a hassle, but a pretty cost effective solution for launch and club data?

 

Skypro and similar devices aren't accurate when it comes to club data, certainly not comparable to Trackman or Flightscope.

[Scottie68]

Dap your common sense tingling during your econ lesson was more than correct. Besides the market determining the cost there is the cost of technology to do the job. I am a retired scientist and i worked for the Navy for 30 years doing things that are very similar to what ball monitors do except on things that are much faster and change direction unlike golf balls that follow a trajectory with spin. 1st and 2nd year physics students solve these very problems every day for homework. I dont know why some of the newer camera companies havent used their products to solve this problem. The software is already available. Anyone who can use MATLAB can take the data from the imagery and the doppler and write the software to make it accurate.

We were trying to do telemetry on things that not only went faster but could make 40g turns, and we were using off the shelf technology. Trackman better enjoy their $20,000 pricetags because its only a matter of time before these $300 launch monitors can be just as accurate as trackman.

I get the feeling that the Skytrack will be just as good as trackman in a few months and may even lower their prices.

 

Again do some research. Your ignorance here is massive. Skytrak measures ZERO club data. It cannot be as good as Trackman as it measures half the data parameters. They aren't even comparable. GC2 with HMT measures things very differently but provides comparable data sets. But it cost $12k+ as well.

 

Agree with the capability difference.

 

I'm thinking Skytrak with a SkyPro type device. Obviously the SkyPro type devices have limitations, and having the data on two different systems can be a hassle, but a pretty cost effective solution for launch and club data?

 

Skypro and similar devices aren't accurate when it comes to club data, certainly not comparable to Trackman or Flightscope.

 

I figured as much, but do we know by how much? Has there been any side by side comparison (assuming the Skypro doesn't move and the face and device are aligned to begin with!)?

[iteachgolf]

Dap your common sense tingling during your econ lesson was more than correct. Besides the market determining the cost there is the cost of technology to do the job. I am a retired scientist and i worked for the Navy for 30 years doing things that are very similar to what ball monitors do except on things that are much faster and change direction unlike golf balls that follow a trajectory with spin. 1st and 2nd year physics students solve these very problems every day for homework. I dont know why some of the newer camera companies havent used their products to solve this problem. The software is already available. Anyone who can use MATLAB can take the data from the imagery and the doppler and write the software to make it accurate.

We were trying to do telemetry on things that not only went faster but could make 40g turns, and we were using off the shelf technology. Trackman better enjoy their $20,000 pricetags because its only a matter of time before these $300 launch monitors can be just as accurate as trackman.

I get the feeling that the Skytrack will be just as good as trackman in a few months and may even lower their prices.

 

Again do some research. Your ignorance here is massive. Skytrak measures ZERO club data. It cannot be as good as Trackman as it measures half the data parameters. They aren't even comparable. GC2 with HMT measures things very differently but provides comparable data sets. But it cost $12k+ as well.

 

Agree with the capability difference.

 

I'm thinking Skytrak with a SkyPro type device. Obviously the SkyPro type devices have limitations, and having the data on two different systems can be a hassle, but a pretty cost effective solution for launch and club data?

 

Skypro and similar devices aren't accurate when it comes to club data, certainly not comparable to Trackman or Flightscope.

 

I figured as much, but do we know by how much? Has there been any side by side comparison (assuming the Skypro doesn't move and the face and device are aligned to begin with!)?

 

It doesn't provide path, clubface or angle of attack. Swingbyte which tries to give those numbers can't get AOA within 5-6* and is 3* or more off on path consistently. Face angle consistently reads more closed than reality. None of them are close to accurate. They are toys

[PaulGT3]

We had to measure an air to air missile that could generate 40g's in lateral movement traveling at speeds of over mach 3. Because all the high speed cameras were so costly we were challenged to use off the shelf technology and do it for a fraction of the cost of technology that was used 20-30 years ago. The setups had to be mobile and could be reproduced for any one to use on any military base. The average golfer doesnt need that kind of accuracy. The ball doesnt change direction independent of spin like a missile can. Trackman measures 26 or 27 parameters that golfers outsides of pros dont need. The technology exists to give the golfer trackman like accuracy and MORE data than he can ever use for less than what skytrack costs now. Now that golfers can start reaching technology that was not available to them before they are going to drive the market for analyzers that do what trackman does for pro golfers at a fraction of the cost. The guys in Denmark used what military was using before but its way over kill for helping the average golfer. The technology exists right now for golfers to use in their garage to get what ever data they need. In fact the average golfer will get out of those the same amount of data that they could have used out of a trackman. They dont need to measure the ball all the way till it hits the ground in their house.

[iteachgolf]

We had to measure an air to air missile that could generate 40g's in lateral movement traveling at speeds of over mach 3. Because all the high speed cameras were so costly we were challenged to use off the shelf technology and do it for a fraction of the cost of technology that was used 20-30 years ago. The setups had to be mobile and could be reproduced for any one to use on any military base. The average golfer doesnt need that kind of accuracy. The ball doesnt change direction independent of spin like a missile can. Trackman measures 26 or 27 parameters that golfers outsides of pros dont need. The technology exists to give the golfer trackman like accuracy and MORE data than he can ever use for less than what skytrack costs now. Now that golfers can start reaching technology that was not available to them before they are going to drive the market for analyzers that do what trackman does for pro golfers at a fraction of the cost. The guys in Denmark used what military was using before but its way over kill for helping the average golfer. The technology exists right now for golfers to use in their garage to get what ever data they need. In fact the average golfer will get out of those the same amount of data that they could have used out of a trackman. They dont need to measure the ball all the way till it hits the ground in their house.

 

You can have your opinion. But I completely disagree. Again they measure zero club data which is far more important to improvement than the ball data. Getting ball numbers only will hardly help the average golfer at all and is giving them nothing they couldn't see hitting balls on the course with their own eyes. What you say golfers don't need I believe are WAY more important than anything skytrak measures.

 

Funny you own a gt3 yet are arguing something is over priced. Plenty of cars could outperform a gt3 in every way at less than 1/3 of the cost.

[AndersUK]

I doubt adjusting the price is an option. These companies dig a hole for themselves pricewise and regardless of the competition they must be careful of any significant price reduction as not to upset their existing customer base. Instead, they must innovate and improve the existing product to justify a continued premium price.

 

And to add to that, I purchased a Flightscope, not a Trackman because I thought the cost of a Flightscope was more aligned with my idea of value than the cost of a Trackman. If Trackman's ideal customers begin to feel that $18,000-$30,000 is more than they are willing to pay, then Trackman will adjust the price to meet the market.

[AndersUK]

I suspect patent and other IP contraints on hardware and/or software is making it difficult to release an affordable product with the same level of functionality and accuracy of the premium devices.

 

Dap your common sense tingling during your econ lesson was more than correct. Besides the market determining the cost there is the cost of technology to do the job. I am a retired scientist and i worked for the Navy for 30 years doing things that are very similar to what ball monitors do except on things that are much faster and change direction unlike golf balls that follow a trajectory with spin. 1st and 2nd year physics students solve these very problems every day for homework. I dont know why some of the newer camera companies havent used their products to solve this problem. The software is already available. Anyone who can use MATLAB can take the data from the imagery and the doppler and write the software to make it accurate.

We were trying to do telemetry on things that not only went faster but could make 40g turns, and we were using off the shelf technology. Trackman better enjoy their $20,000 pricetags because its only a matter of time before these $300 launch monitors can be just as accurate as trackman.

I get the feeling that the Skytrack will be just as good as trackman in a few months and may even lower their prices.

[dap]

I doubt adjusting the price is an option. These companies dig a hole for themselves pricewise and regardless of the competition they must be careful of any significant price reduction as not to upset their existing customer base. Instead, they must innovate and improve the existing product to justify a continued premium price.

 

And to add to that, I purchased a Flightscope, not a Trackman because I thought the cost of a Flightscope was more aligned with my idea of value than the cost of a Trackman. If Trackman's ideal customers begin to feel that $18,000-$30,000 is more than they are willing to pay, then Trackman will adjust the price to meet the market.

In particular Trackman may have dug that hole too deep. There is every possibility the latest Flightscope x2 elite is better than Trackman at less than half the price.

[Bigmean]

Yes I got it from GS.

 

I really agree with a lot of what dap is saying on this. Also maybe worth pointing out, I have spent a lot of money on this (I don't care how much they are new etc.) and the purpose is 2 fold. I can hit balls, pitches through driver at home for 30 min after dinner and for anyone with 2 small kids and a wife, that is important. Also I need to make sure in doing this that I have a sense of positive direction, so it needs to be accurate enough to work on your game. And lastly, the kicker to lol this, is that even if the putting sucks or is gimmicky, playing all these course in a sim fashion will both work on your game and be a blast. Friends over for drinks, fire up the simulator, playing St. Andrews or whatever with my son, just playing 18 at 9:00 at night because I want to hit balls...

 

So to help answer the home guy and what they are looking for, I think I am a good sample piece. I want time to practice, I need to make sure my practice is legit enough to transfer, and the video game aspect of it is icing and may become my favorite part since I am not a range rat. Now I would say that at a certain price (Not sure where) there becomes a large segment of golfers that want what I just said and would get it, providing it is accurate and clean.

 

Also, I have zero issue with a ball only LM. The ball is the result, and most important. Your path can be guessed accurately enough and if you put in work and know what the ball is doing, that is more than fine I think for home.

[leekgolf]

Imagine you own the only launch monitor in the state and it's for sale! There are a number of golf teachers and clubfitters who really want this monitor for their business because it will allow them to do a better job and attract more customers. You decide you want $500 for your launch monitor. I come over to take a look at it. It's exactly what I want because I'm a clubfitter and with it I can make a lot of money. I offer $500 and just as you are about to accept the deal, Scottie 68 walks in. Scottie wants your monitor and it is perfect for his business, so he says- hey wait, I'll pay a thousand for that monitor. Why? Because he thinks he can make money from it and it's the only one. But then Dornstar comes over, and he believes that monitor will help him really improve and give him a shot at the Hillsborough County Amateur and if he wins that - maybe he does have the talent to get on TOUR! Dorn says, "I'll pay you $1,200" Now you are pretty happy with this deal, except I want it and say, hey, I was here first. What do you do?

 

If you're like many of us, you sell the monitor to me for more than $1,200 and then GET ANOTHER then another etc. You will keep raising the price until you can't sell your monitors because you are asking $30,000 for them and the cost is too high for the instructors and clubfitters to be able to make money. What do you do next? Put them on sale. Reduce the price until you find the price that you can regularly sell them.

 

There was not one word about cost in the example, because cost doesn't determine selling price, the market does. Cost determines whether you can make a profit or even stay in business.

 

This is what known as freemarket capitalism. In reality it's a bit more complicated than that but price is determined by supply and demand.

Certainly not disputing any of what you said. My common sense just tells me that Trackman is way over priced for what you are actually getting. The huge markup is just for their reputation for being the best and instructors and clubfitters will want the Trackman name to attract customers.

 

Is the technology that much better than Flightscope and GC2 with hmt combined?

 

I honestly don't know. My Flightscope measures pretty much the same 27 parameters as a Trackman. It was important to me to have a device that works well outside and tracks club data. That meant if I went Trackman I wanted the outdoor version of Trackman II or III which are ~ . $25,000. Flightscope offers the Xi Tour for about $9,000 and the X2 Elite for about $12,000. I went X2 because it's a heavier duty machine with better battery life, My club pro uses Trackman III and he says he thinks the Trackman is a little more accurate but the machines are comparable.

 

Honestly, I'm not going to get into a pissing match with the posters claiming technical superiority over the rest of us. While I have as long of a technology background as anyone posting in this thread, I will stick to economics.

 

I work for a major technology vendor. Our products include hardware, software and services for business. We have products that are not that different in terms of concept to the radar devices like Trackman and Flightscope. Essentially, both a Linux based appliances running a proprietary Linux version with everything stripped from the OS except what is needed by the device. Both use standard computer components plus Doppler radar units. The larger devices like the FS X2 and Trackman use enterprise server components. The smaller devices like the FS Xi series use pc class components. At my company, we were faced with a multimillion dollar hardware decision several years ago. In one area we produced 2 separate lines of products -one was for major corporations and depending upon capacity which can go from reasonably small - just a few terabytes up to unthinkably large - petabytes of capacity; they range in price from about $25k- $2 million each and another similar product target at the small to medium business market that was similar in size to the smaller enterprise product but the market would only support a sub $10,000 price point. The time to manufacture a small business (smb) unit, cost of logistics etc. was similar to the big ones and we could make small profit on the smb product. We decided to discontinue it because it was a less effective though profitable use of resources. Using those same resources for other higher margin and /or higher volume products was in the company's best interest. It was also in my opinion in the customers' best interest. We are geared to work with and support Global 2000 organizations and we aren't structured to handle the more consumer oriented SMB market. There are other technology vendors who are geared for the SMB market. Those businesses are probable going to be much happier dealing with them.

 

What does this have to do with Launch Monitors? I'm glad you asked! Trackman, Foresight and Flightscope all have a business model designed to sell and support the professional market - instructors, clubfitters, big box stores, club mfrs etc. This is a highly competitive market that requires large R&D efforts and professional support and ongoing technical maintenance. Those markets will also pay for that. Flightscope made a run at the consumer market with the Xi for $2,500 each. They too decided to discontinue it because their cost is probably very similar to the more expensive Xi+ and Xi Tour versions, but their business is geared to supporting the professional market. As an example, they charge $600 annually for support if bought with the unit and more if bought later. This covers technical support, component replacement and engineering support if required. Consumers in general weren't interested in that support model. Many consumers want to be able to call with "easy" questions and pay for out of warranty replacement components when needed. Flightscope discontinued the $2500 Xi because it didn't make good business sense.

 

Skytrak and Optishot built their products and business models for consumers. Consumers are less likely to be willing to pay a significant amount of money for club based data like face to path, face to target, D-plane and swing bottom paramenters, acceleration profiles etc. I believe there will be a race to low priced devices as seen in SwingByte, Skypro devices etc. While those initial devices aren't great, perhaps someone can develop a Skytrak like device for <$1500 in the near future. It will not have a huge effect on the major LM producers like Foresight, Trackman and Flightscope. They have a different target market.

[Scottie68]

Ok, in my search for cost effective solutions to add a bit more functionality (where the Skypro idea was dismissed as a toy!), how about adding a swing speed radar (around $100) to directly measure club head speed (therefore calculate smash factor), and some foot spray ($5) on the face to check ball contact location.

[iteachgolf]

Ok, in my search for cost effective solutions to add a bit more functionality (where the Skypro idea was dismissed as a toy!), how about adding to the ball data club head speed with a swing speed radar (around $100) to directly measure club head speed (therefore calculate smash factor), and some foot spray ($5) on the face to check ball contact location.

Another toy IMO. It's accurate to itself meaning, if it reads faster you're swinging faster, Not accurate at all as far as actual clubhead speed and reads significantly higher than reality.