Why Can't Tommy Armour III Hit The Ball So Far With Wooden Clubs?

[EmperorPenguin]

I just saw this interesting video.

 

 

What surprises me is that Tommy Armour III, who is swinging over 100 mph, is not hitting the ball as far as I would expect him. Jack Nicklaus, who had a clubhead speed approaching 120 mph, stated in 1972 that his total distance with the 3 wood is 235 yards and up and his driver is 250 and up. Tommy here is swinging somewhere just above 100 mph, which I consider somewhat on par to, say, Nick Faldo, yet Faldo hit balata balls longer than Tommy can. Of course we need the specs of the vintage clubs he tested, but for now I'm assuming standard 43" driver and 42" 3 wood with 11 and 16 degrees loft, respectively. Tommy should be 230 with the 3 wood and at least 245 with the driver, and was he hitting ordinary range balls, or today's premium, urethane-covered balls in the test? This is baffling.

[Davewn]

My guess is TA III's swing was much more free and easy with his M2 driver and modern 3 wood as those were optimized for him and he has been swinging something similar to them for the last 10-15 years. Those wood clubs he used looked to be in worse condition (the 3 wood had tape for whipping!) than most I see in the thrift store. I'm thinking that the combo of unfamiliar, beat up clubs and small heads had him backing down to make solid contact.

[jonnygrouville]

Because they've gone bargain bin. He gets another 25% out of his modern driver compared to that other metal he uses. Decent persimmon with a decent shaft and he'd be hitting it further.

 

I hit every three wood I have further than 210. That thing he is using does look a bit ropey to say the least...

 

[NRJyzr]

Ah yes, another "test" where the old clubs do miraculously poorly. Smell the marketing. /rolleyes

 

How *does* one get a 6500 spin rate with a driver? That's 6 or 7 iron territory, depending on the player. LOL

[jslane57]

People today learn to swing differently than they did with the old equipment. You can't coast into the ball with the old like you can with the new. Same with baseball, get too used to a modern bat and it's hard to get explosive with wood. TAIII would figure it out quickly if the change was permanent...

[EmperorPenguin]

Maybe the ball has much to do with it? I understand that today's equipment relies on today's balls, which spins less and flies higher? Yesterday's balls spun more and flew slightly lower?

 

I wonder how far Tommy would hit a better persimmon driver, say an M85?

 

Tom Watson in his prime could keep up with Tommy's M2, and that would be Watson playing a balata ball.

[NRJyzr]

The modern ball spins less off the longer clubs than did the wound balls of yore. I don't know that they necessarily spin less off the shorter clubs, especially after ball companies adjusted for the groove rule change.

 

Ultimately, that wouldn't account for what's goingon in this particular video...

[Swingingk]

I just saw this interesting video.

 

 

What surprises me is that Tommy Armour III, who is swinging over 100 mph, is not hitting the ball as far as I would expect him. Jack Nicklaus, who had a clubhead speed approaching 120 mph, stated in 1972 that his total distance with the 3 wood is 235 yards and up and his driver is 250 and up. Tommy here is swinging somewhere just above 100 mph, which I consider somewhat on par to, say, Nick Faldo, yet Faldo hit balata balls longer than Tommy can. Of course we need the specs of the vintage clubs he tested, but for now I'm assuming standard 43" driver and 42" 3 wood with 11 and 16 degrees loft, respectively. Tommy should be 230 with the 3 wood and at least 245 with the driver, and was he hitting ordinary range balls, or today's premium, urethane-covered balls in the test? This is baffling.

 

The clubs he was "testing" literally came from a bargain bin. They look like total junk to me. I wouldn't doubt it if the shafts were senior or ladys flex, probably loose in the hosel, with a loose insert as well. I'm actually surprised he hit them as far as he did. That video is the worst vintage-2-new comparison I've seen yet. I'm mean really... a tour pro comparing custom fit clubs against unknown thrift-store junk? Lame.

[jonnygrouville]

Yes, yes and yes. I've got to go at it far harder with persimmon than I ever did with modern clubs. Or maybe that I could with long light drivers. Not as much as hickory, but is a different method for optimal results.

 

I am sure there would be more science for someone like me who doesn't play modern at all to do the test, but this wouldn't do titanium any justice as the ball would spin too much to go anywhere. The tests would need to be months apart with every day in between on the range hooked up to a Trackman using the next club to be tested. To find out modern clubs go further. No more or less pointless than the farce in this clip.

 

[birly-shirly]

I don't really see the issue here. TA is not swinging over 100 mph with the steel shafted clubs. 210 and 240 is respectable distance for a guy his age hitting those clubs. When Faldo was playing steel shafted woods, he'd have been at least 20 years younger than Armour and a club or two longer. All the video shows is the possible gain in speed going from heavy and short to lighter and longer clubs which at 12 mph is pretty much in line with the other video nrjyzr put up here the other day.

 

Don't understand the spin numbers though. Aren't the numbers off the charts high for every club for which they're shown?

[stixman]

I'm only interested in seeing a legitimate comparison, all this illustrates is how far the 'forces of evil' are prepared to go showing the 'superiority' of their promoted product..

To me,it smacks of trying too hard to prove something, so what are they frightened of?

Out of interest, and since the video has opened Pandora's box, does anyone know how many workers were employed in the USA in the club making/ club repair business in it's heyday, say 1960s - 1980s vs how many are employed now?

[scomac2002]

I'm only interested in seeing a legitimate comparison, all this illustrates is how far the 'forces of evil' are prepared to go showing the 'superiority' of their promoted product..

To me,it smacks of trying too hard to prove something, so what are they frightened of?

Out of interest, and since the video has opened Pandora's box, does anyone know how many workers were employed in the USA in the club making/ club repair business in it's heyday, say 1960s - 1980s vs how many are employed now?

 

I have no idea as to the answer, but it would be very interesting to find out. Perhaps it`s not as bad as we fear at least in terms of assembly even though all most of the primary production is now off-shore. Retail is where the biggest difference is with the switch to big box retail away from green grass pro shops. Not only will there be fewer jobs, but the compensation will be less too relatively speaking because back in the day you had to be capable of building and repairing clubs to work at a pro shop. With the big box model all that is required are a number of sales associates with a single club tech for the limited amount of repair work that gets done today. It`s pretty annoying to walk into a store in hopes of getting a club or two regripped for your afternoon round and the sales person tells you that the club tech isn't in until 1:00 pm so your clubs will be ready after 4:00! :rolleyes:

[Shilgy]

Maybe the ball has much to do with it? I understand that today's equipment relies on today's balls, which spins less and flies higher? Yesterday's balls spun more and flew slightly lower?

 

I wonder how far Tommy would hit a better persimmon driver, say an M85?

 

Tom Watson in his prime could keep up with Tommy's M2, and that would be Watson playing a balata ball.

Where do you come up with this stuff? TA3 averaged a bit over 290 this week. Watson with the old equipment did not sniff that.

[BIG STU]

It could be a lot of different factors. I will agree those clubs looked like crap. I would like to see him hit with some quality sticks like I have in my collection and most of you have as well. The ball may be a factor too. Like I said in a post last week I discovered the Lady Bridgestone balls and they go like a scalded dog off my fiber faced Izett driver. I would like to see him hit one of my persimmon drivers with the lady ball bet it will go

[mocokid]

TA III is considered a very good ballstriker, so what he got out of real old, bad condition persimmon is about all you're going to get. Sure Jason Day could get more out of it, if his back is OK, but unlike modern clubs you have to make a good pass at it all the time with persimmon. Today's game is speed pure and simple.

[freddiec]

236 with a generic 40 year old persimmon isn't all that bad, infact, I'd consider it a good rope with a 99 mph swing..

[NRJyzr]

Don't know if anyone hit on this, but some of the distance and swingspeed reduction is going to come from slick, junky grips.

 

That isn't going to keep someone somewhere from saying "see, the old clubs are really really short."

[freddiec]

It could be a lot of different factors. I will agree those clubs looked like crap. I would like to see him hit with some quality sticks like I have in my collection and most of you have as well. The ball may be a factor too. Like I said in a post last week I discovered the Lady Bridgestone balls and they go like a scalded dog off my fiber faced Izett driver. I would like to see him hit one of my persimmon drivers with the lady ball bet it will go

 

I completely agree... With a quality ball and a great persimmon driver a swing like TA3 that ball is going atleast 250 to 260 I bet. IMO.. I'll have to try that Bridgestone ball. The TM Project X ball also seems great, although only hit it with irons, not a wood yet..

[BIG STU]

It could be a lot of different factors. I will agree those clubs looked like crap. I would like to see him hit with some quality sticks like I have in my collection and most of you have as well. The ball may be a factor too. Like I said in a post last week I discovered the Lady Bridgestone balls and they go like a scalded dog off my fiber faced Izett driver. I would like to see him hit one of my persimmon drivers with the lady ball bet it will go

 

I completely agree... With a quality ball and a great persimmon driver a swing like TA3 that ball is going atleast 250 to 260 I bet. IMO.. I'll have to try that Bridgestone ball. The TM Project X ball also seems great, although only hit it with irons, not a wood yet..

Trust me Freddie they go like a scalded cat! They spin like crazy too even off the face of a FC Mac iron which has never been noted for producing a lot of spin distance yes but spin no. They will go on a modern driver even better. I was hitting my Homna Saturday and getting some unreal distances. I was spinning the crap out of them with my 2013 Callys too.

 

And you guys are correct about TA III being a great ball striker I played with him some back in the late 70s on the Minis.

[SmiterOfPv1x]

The only thing in taking away from this is the memory of the old balata balls. I could never hit them off the tee without them looking like an egg. There was never anything, nor is there anything now, that's near as good around the green. But that does you no good if youre hitting an egg into a green from 180 out. I've seen firsthand some really strange flighted iron shots with them. Good times. But give me a sleeve of ProV1x's when I start my round. Please.

[NRJyzr]

But give me a sleeve of ProV1x's when I start my round. Please.

 

You really should aim higher

[BIG STU]

The only thing in taking away from this is the memory of the old balata balls. I could never hit them off the tee without them looking like an egg. There was never anything, nor is there anything now, that's near as good around the green. But that does you no good if youre hitting an egg into a green from 180 out. I've seen firsthand some really strange flighted iron shots with them. Good times. But give me a sleeve of ProV1x's when I start my round. Please.

I remember back when I was a kid finding old ones around the course that my Dad ran. Some had been lost for some time sitting in the sun and they would really be egg shaped. We would hit them with like say a 2 iron real worm burners and watch how they would tumble on the hard baked Carolina fairways. We also used to take cut ones and hit them high with a sand wedge (55* in those days LOL) and listen to the rubber bands sing as they flew apart. Recently I had one come apart in the closet in the front room where I keep my special stuff. It had apparently came out of one of the boxes. My wife was rummaging for some stuff in that closet and found it. It had apparently became egg shaped and had split the cover open and exploded itself even though the core was intact. Looked like a Rat's nest. BTW it was an old red 60s vintage Maxfli

[tstephen]

I just laughed at the thought that his name is on the best persimmons ever made.

 

I would think that most pros with the best MacGregor Tommy Armour driver vs his current driver hitting 10 balls with each club and after identifying the ball they get the max distance out of with persimmon and decent firm fairways would have at least 3 persimmon hit balls further off the tee than 3 with his current gamer on tour.

 

I am the same age as TAIII similar size with similar clubhead speed with the persimmon and my best modern gamer(low 100's/111 mph) and I have played with dozens of tour players since my junior days. I have the best Mac TA drivers and driving is my strength. The wildest thing is sometimes my best carry with persimmon matches that of my Taylormade TP Aeroburner.

 

1963 PGA Championship long drive contest winner Jack 341 and 2014 PGA Championship winner Louis at 340. Anybody know how far Jack's drive carried and what was 2nd best?

 

The 1983 National Long Drive Championship followed The PGA Past Champions Clinic at Riviera. Jack was last up in the clinic with the driver stringing out 4-5 perfect drives carrying 260 on a string into a decent breeze. His final tee shot showed his extra reserve he had going 25-30 yards further carry and would have definitely been a contender in the National Long Drive Championship.