Putter that is square and flat on ground when shaft leans forward?

[pinestreetgolf]

Hello!

 

I was hoping you guys could help me. When I grip my wedge, the shaft points at about my left hip when the club is square and at its intended loft. However, with a bunch of putters I've tried, I can't achieve this feeling - if I put the shaft pointing at my left hip the putter seems to deloft like crazy / sole doesn't stay on the ground (the back comes up with some). The wedge, which is 36", will sit flush on the ground with the shaft in the forward position at its natural loft.

 

Are there any putters built like this? (so that if held with a full swing grip and the ball is addressed the putter face will be square and at its intended loft with the shaft forward (ideally pointing at the left hip).

 

Sorry if this was confusing, I tried to put it into the best words I could. Essentially, I can't hold my putter like every other club because I can't push the shaft left enough like a normal club - the non-putter clubs sole perfectly and settle at their natural loft with the forward press. Are there any putters like this to buy?

 

Thanks!

[bladehunter]

this will tick of a few but here goes..... If you pick through the DJ spyder putters you will find some bent like you are describing.. AND you will also find some that have the shaft pointing at the right hip ( hands behind) when the face is square....

 

also i find some ping and oddysey plumbers necks to be just what you decribe... shaft forward... if not any of the plumbers necks can easily be bent to acheive what you want

 

 

good looking WITB by the way !

[misplacedtexan83]

This reminds me of this putter back in the day..

 

 

Odyssey backstryke

 

 

#9 seem to favor this move you are talking about as well. Maybe even the toe up models which have unique look to them.

[rcb1586]

I bought my Mizuno C03H used but when holding the shaft vertical it felt like there was 15* of loft.

I had to lean the shaft forward like crazy to get it to feel square.

Took it down to my club fitter and had them bend it to suit my eye.

It is a carbon steel milled putter so I am not sure if this would be possible with all putters without compromising the neck.

There are certainly some out there that could achieve what you are looking for.

[dbleag]

Sounds like you need a 5-7* loft putter - Bettinardi - Kuchar model?

 

When you point the grip at your left hip, the putter will be delofted to 3-4*.

 

Or, you can get a plumber-neck model of any brand and bend the loft to your needs.

[pinestreetgolf]

Thanks for the responses guys! I think my putter now has a plumber's neck, actually. Can that be bent in a golf shop? How would I measure where to bend it to so it would sit in a similar place as my wedge does at address?

 

Interesting, may just get a high-loft putter to test and then deloft with my hands. Still feels off tho as the sole comes up from the ground.

[herbygolf21]

The directed force has built in shaft lean. It is exactly what you are looking for. Check it out...

[rawdog]

I forward press with my #9 HT (sig), and it feels very natural to me.

 

Others mention Kuch, but Phil used to press so much that he had 5-6* of loft on his #8. He has changed his approach a little bit since then, but from my experience in delofting/pressing the #9, it fits exactly what you are trying to do.

 

For me, it feels like I'm moving my hands toward the hole, and dragging the putter head along for the ride. #9 is not forgiving on mishits, but I play mine at 33.5" and it feels like a very stable, repeatable movement.

[rawdog]

Knowing you, I'd go a step further and look at how your eye dominance affects how you perceive your putter alignment. Particularly if you're thinking of making a dramatic change. I did some reading on this a while back. Your Edel crew uses this theory in their putter fittings.

 

Look at Aim Modifier #1.

 

https://edelgolf.com/pages/classic-fit

 

Hosel offset and shape produce optical geometries that create aim responses in your subconscious. Some tend to aim you more to the right. The critical word here is “more” - a certain hosel may aim you more right or more left, but not necessarily right or left of dead center. Notice the word “tend” because everyone is wired differently. That being said, here are some general rules that hold true for a majority of players:

1. L-SHAPED HOSELS (also known as plumber- necks) tend to create more of a leftward aim bias than their S-shaped counterparts.

2. HOSELS THAT FEATURE OFFSET tend to aim players more to the left. It’s a progressive relationship: the greater the offset, the greater the left- aim bias.

3. ONSET HOSELS (those that set the putter face ahead of the shaft) tend to aim people more to the right.

 

This guy is trying to sell putters, too, but still offers some good analysis.

 

http://www.mindseyegolf.com/mindseye-putter.html

[SwingMan]

Look at the DF Putter

[pinestreetgolf]

Knowing you, I'd go a step further and look at how your eye dominance affects how you perceive your putter alignment. Particularly if you're thinking of making a dramatic change. I did some reading on this a while back. Your Edel crew uses this theory in their putter fittings.

 

Look at Aim Modifier #1.

 

https://edelgolf.com/pages/classic-fit

 

Hosel offset and shape produce optical geometries that create aim responses in your subconscious. Some tend to aim you more to the right. The critical word here is “more” - a certain hosel may aim you more right or more left, but not necessarily right or left of dead center. Notice the word “tend” because everyone is wired differently. That being said, here are some general rules that hold true for a majority of players:

1. L-SHAPED HOSELS (also known as plumber- necks) tend to create more of a leftward aim bias than their S-shaped counterparts.

2. HOSELS THAT FEATURE OFFSET tend to aim players more to the left. It’s a progressive relationship: the greater the offset, the greater the left- aim bias.

3. ONSET HOSELS (those that set the putter face ahead of the shaft) tend to aim people more to the right.

 

This guy is trying to sell putters, too, but still offers some good analysis.

 

http://www.mindseyeg...eye-putter.html

 

I went to Edwin Watts and had my current putter bent forward 3* to match a Scotty that I thought felt really nice and it is now in the exact same spot relative to my body and ball as a wedge. Thank you to the users who recommended bending a plumber neck it was a very cheap way to do a quick experiment. I didn't know that existed.

 

How does putting aim get influenced by "aiming" the ball first? When I really play, especially in an event, I use two sharpie lines on the back of the ball and aim without my putter even in my hands. Those two lines go perfectly against the two lines on the "back" of my anser-style Edel.

 

I'm trying to get a similar feeling at address to that of a sand wedge. I have a nice, on-plane takeaway with the sand wedge but I tend to jerk the putter back. I'm trying to achieve a similar address position to i can use a similar preshot routine and a similar square takeaway. With my wedge my hands and club move back nicely as a unit (I'm a very good wedge player) but with my putter the head goes first by quite a bit. If I can get that forward press at address I'm hoping I can just use a similar swing. I'm a good chipper with the wedge and I figure if I can get the putter stroke to be identical can just use that really reliable chipping stroke.

 

All that said, I know nothing about putting so this might be an insane plan. I'm just so used to returning that shaft to my left hip at impact (I've drilled it over and over and over to become a good full swing player) it seems to me returning it there with the putter would make all the clubs "feel" the same.

 

This was inspired by a great youtube video featuring Guerin Rife talking about putting (wish i could find the link - i'm trying) where Guerin said that the number one problem golfers have with putts outside of 12 feet is that they forget its a golf shot. They still need to be athletic and on-plane and not jerky. I figure this might be a good way to do it.

 

That said, I'd love your take, as I know you design putters and know a ton about it.

[wmblake2000]

I was going to post the exact same question as the OP. I like a little forward press, but would like this to be built into my putter so that it sits with this forward press. This way I won't open the face with the press or deloft the thing. I am going to get mine bent and see what happens...

[rawdog]

Knowing you, I'd go a step further and look at how your eye dominance affects how you perceive your putter alignment. Particularly if you're thinking of making a dramatic change. I did some reading on this a while back. Your Edel crew uses this theory in their putter fittings.

 

Look at Aim Modifier #1.

 

https://edelgolf.com/pages/classic-fit

 

Hosel offset and shape produce optical geometries that create aim responses in your subconscious. Some tend to aim you more to the right. The critical word here is “more” - a certain hosel may aim you more right or more left, but not necessarily right or left of dead center. Notice the word “tend” because everyone is wired differently. That being said, here are some general rules that hold true for a majority of players:

1. L-SHAPED HOSELS (also known as plumber- necks) tend to create more of a leftward aim bias than their S-shaped counterparts.

2. HOSELS THAT FEATURE OFFSET tend to aim players more to the left. It’s a progressive relationship: the greater the offset, the greater the left- aim bias.

3. ONSET HOSELS (those that set the putter face ahead of the shaft) tend to aim people more to the right.

 

This guy is trying to sell putters, too, but still offers some good analysis.

 

http://www.mindseyeg...eye-putter.html

 

I went to Edwin Watts and had my current putter bent forward 3* to match a Scotty that I thought felt really nice and it is now in the exact same spot relative to my body and ball as a wedge. Thank you to the users who recommended bending a plumber neck it was a very cheap way to do a quick experiment. I didn't know that existed.

 

How does putting aim get influenced by "aiming" the ball first? When I really play, especially in an event, I use two sharpie lines on the back of the ball and aim without my putter even in my hands. Those two lines go perfectly against the two lines on the "back" of my anser-style Edel.

 

I'm trying to get a similar feeling at address to that of a sand wedge. I have a nice, on-plane takeaway with the sand wedge but I tend to jerk the putter back. I'm trying to achieve a similar address position to i can use a similar preshot routine and a similar square takeaway. With my wedge my hands and club move back nicely as a unit (I'm a very good wedge player) but with my putter the head goes first by quite a bit. If I can get that forward press at address I'm hoping I can just use a similar swing. I'm a good chipper with the wedge and I figure if I can get the putter stroke to be identical can just use that really reliable chipping stroke.

 

All that said, I know nothing about putting so this might be an insane plan. I'm just so used to returning that shaft to my left hip at impact (I've drilled it over and over and over to become a good full swing player) it seems to me returning it there with the putter would make all the clubs "feel" the same.

 

This was inspired by a great youtube video featuring Guerin Rife talking about putting (wish i could find the link - i'm trying) where Guerin said that the number one problem golfers have with putts outside of 12 feet is that they forget its a golf shot. They still need to be athletic and on-plane and not jerky. I figure this might be a good way to do it.

 

That said, I'd love your take, as I know you design putters and know a ton about it.

 

No one would confuse me for Guerin, but after I finish blushing, let me gather my thoughts and I'll try to post a response tomorrow. About to head out of the office and... shocker... roll some putts!

 

To give you my brief thoughts... I think that golf in general is simply reacting to conditions. If you want to instill a repeatable motion, I say good for you. You'll want something you can repeat mindlessly on the course. The second you stop reacting and start thinking... your performance may suffer. Do not become self-aware, Mr. Robot!

 

We also may differ a little in this aspect of the game, where I spend most of my putting practice time learning how to read greens, feel slope with my feet, calculate vectors in my head, and then stepping up and just "rolling the rock". Keeping my brain occupied with the read stops me from thinking about my mechanics. I'm toying around with not taking practice strokes when I putt. I'll get more into my theory tomorrow morning.

[pinestreetgolf]

if not any of the plumbers necks can easily be bent to acheive what you want

 

 

good looking WITB by the way !

 

Thanks for the suggestion, exactly what I did. The WITB is updated now for a matching pair of hybrids to fit the 215-220 and 230 slots. Grabbed them off the BST. Think the bag might finally be set for a while. Might be adding a DF putter tho!

 

Knowing you, I'd go a step further and look at how your eye dominance affects how you perceive your putter alignment. Particularly if you're thinking of making a dramatic change. I did some reading on this a while back. Your Edel crew uses this theory in their putter fittings.

 

Look at Aim Modifier #1.

 

https://edelgolf.com/pages/classic-fit

 

Hosel offset and shape produce optical geometries that create aim responses in your subconscious. Some tend to aim you more to the right. The critical word here is “more” - a certain hosel may aim you more right or more left, but not necessarily right or left of dead center. Notice the word “tend” because everyone is wired differently. That being said, here are some general rules that hold true for a majority of players:

1. L-SHAPED HOSELS (also known as plumber- necks) tend to create more of a leftward aim bias than their S-shaped counterparts.

2. HOSELS THAT FEATURE OFFSET tend to aim players more to the left. It’s a progressive relationship: the greater the offset, the greater the left- aim bias.

3. ONSET HOSELS (those that set the putter face ahead of the shaft) tend to aim people more to the right.

 

This guy is trying to sell putters, too, but still offers some good analysis.

 

http://www.mindseyeg...eye-putter.html

 

I went to Edwin Watts and had my current putter bent forward 3* to match a Scotty that I thought felt really nice and it is now in the exact same spot relative to my body and ball as a wedge. Thank you to the users who recommended bending a plumber neck it was a very cheap way to do a quick experiment. I didn't know that existed.

 

How does putting aim get influenced by "aiming" the ball first? When I really play, especially in an event, I use two sharpie lines on the back of the ball and aim without my putter even in my hands. Those two lines go perfectly against the two lines on the "back" of my anser-style Edel.

 

I'm trying to get a similar feeling at address to that of a sand wedge. I have a nice, on-plane takeaway with the sand wedge but I tend to jerk the putter back. I'm trying to achieve a similar address position to i can use a similar preshot routine and a similar square takeaway. With my wedge my hands and club move back nicely as a unit (I'm a very good wedge player) but with my putter the head goes first by quite a bit. If I can get that forward press at address I'm hoping I can just use a similar swing. I'm a good chipper with the wedge and I figure if I can get the putter stroke to be identical can just use that really reliable chipping stroke.

 

All that said, I know nothing about putting so this might be an insane plan. I'm just so used to returning that shaft to my left hip at impact (I've drilled it over and over and over to become a good full swing player) it seems to me returning it there with the putter would make all the clubs "feel" the same.

 

This was inspired by a great youtube video featuring Guerin Rife talking about putting (wish i could find the link - i'm trying) where Guerin said that the number one problem golfers have with putts outside of 12 feet is that they forget its a golf shot. They still need to be athletic and on-plane and not jerky. I figure this might be a good way to do it.

 

That said, I'd love your take, as I know you design putters and know a ton about it.

 

No one would confuse me for Guerin, but after I finish blushing, let me gather my thoughts and I'll try to post a response tomorrow. About to head out of the office and... shocker... roll some putts!

 

To give you my brief thoughts... I think that golf in general is simply reacting to conditions. If you want to instill a repeatable motion, I say good for you. You'll want something you can repeat mindlessly on the course. The second you stop reacting and start thinking... your performance may suffer. Do not become self-aware, Mr. Robot!

 

We also may differ a little in this aspect of the game, where I spend most of my putting practice time learning how to read greens, feel slope with my feet, calculate vectors in my head, and then stepping up and just "rolling the rock". Keeping my brain occupied with the read stops me from thinking about my mechanics. I'm toying around with not taking practice strokes when I putt. I'll get more into my theory tomorrow morning.

 

Looking forward to reading it for sure. I use the green reading method in "Your Putting Solution" by James Siedeckman (sp). Basically, you get behind the hole and imagine a quarter is on either side and decide which is higher. That means the tilt is toward the low quarter. You also read it on a scale of 1-10. Then you stand on the low side and read how uphill or downhill the putt is on a scale of 1-10. Then you multiply the two together for the break. So if there is a big tilt and big downhill, you'll get a big number. Small tilt uphill a small one. It is incredibly unscientific but it gets me in the right ballpark, and it will tell me if my initial gut read is correct.

 

But I am sure there is a much better way to do it!

[rawdog]

But I am sure there is a much better way to do it!

 

No judgment on your method- sometimes quick and dirty works.

 

As far as green reading goes, this is the best thing I've read on the subject. It's overkill, so you can skip down to the images that are photos of pages from the book Vector Putting. I added page 137 because the diagram is awesome.

http://www.puttingzone.com/vector.html

 

You sling "vector" around, so you'll take to this pretty well. Practice it a couple times on your local green and it's easy to put in play. Eventually your brain won't even know you're doing it. It becomes that intuitive. Or, you can do it consciously and take your mind off the putt.

 

When I view finding the line as a math problem, I look like a dufus, which is what I want. Contrary to your post about a putt being an athletic movement, I want it to be as unathletic as possible. I've told myself that no matter how much time I put into ingraining mechanics, they will fail. It happens. Missed putts happen.

 

So I embrace them. I like Bob Rotella. He says you need to see a lot of putts go in the hole, but you have to accept that they won't all fall. Couple that with strokes gained, and you'll probably see there are very few instances where you're consistently putting better or worse than your current numbers. Trends are a different story.

 

For stroke, I like to let my right arm hang. It's similar to my full swing where the right arm is all I think about. It needs to hang and swing freely without excess tension. I don't have any video, but I made a concept putter (see image) that is carbon steel (gunblued, of course), and designed to play at 33.5" and 355g head. I play it at 75* lie angle. I wanted to try face-on, but I never got comfortable not looking at the ball.

 

To let you know, I also putt more traditionally, but I did develop a nice stroke by flaring my left foot 45*, playing the ball off my left heel, left hand over left heel, placing my left hand in a normal position on the grip, and placing my right hand wherever it wanted to intersect with the shaft. Hips would be in an open position. I'd make my right arm go limp. Imagine your right arm limp, pulling a putter shaft back, and then pushing it forward just like you would to roll the golf ball itself. To train, sometimes I'd literally release the shaft from my grasp at the end of the stroke.

 

It really was wild, but it feels so natural to me. Imagine playing skee-ball. You can really feel the momentum of the head as it swings. Also, your head is behind the ball so you can see the ball and quite a bit of the line ahead of it. Simply "roll" or "drop" the putter head toward your aim point. The only reason I don't putt this way now is I had to go screw up the putter by adding an Iomic Unite belly grip because I wanted to see what it would be like to grip a longer grip instead of down on the shaft.

 

Problem was, it made the grip too heavy, and I couldn't feel the head. I wasn't releasing the putter well. I've been using my #9 since and just haven't gotten around to fixing my concept putter.

 

Anyhow, I honestly think "normal" putting stances are silly. There has to be something better and more natural. My friends teased me (they respect my knowledge and effort I put into the game), but one day I rolled in 4 consecutive 10+ footers for par during a friendly match and they have since dubbed it the "Russo Method." Makes me laugh.

 

So for you, create the PSG Method.

 

Read up on whether you're "pushing" or "pulling" the putter. Some of this may not be bio-mechanically correct, but all that matters (to me) is what your head thinks you are doing.

 

http://www.golfwrx.com/386276/push-or-pull-whats-your-power-source-when-putting/

 

My stroke with the #9 is totally a pull, and my stroke with the concept putter is totally a push. Then, once you've figured out what you're doing and how it feels, do your ingraining period and then go putt.

 

Work on mechanics when you're not on the putting green. Living room, dining room, bedroom, whatever. Stroke it in front of the mirror (the putter). But when you're on the green, leave the mechanics at home. Work on reacting to the stimuli. Find your fall line, calculate your vectors, check out the hot chick on the range nearby.

 

Then roll the rock!

 

EDIT: It is entirely possible I'm full of s***, so take my writing with a grain of salt :)

[pinestreetgolf]

Incredibly interesting. Just locked my office door to dive into it.