Medicus in the bag. Allowed?

[Stuart_G]

Can't you declare extra clubs in your bag that you will not use prior to play?

 

Not currently. But if memory serves me, being able to was part of the proposed changes for 2019.

[raynorfan1]

Can't you declare extra clubs in your bag that you will not use prior to play?

 

Not currently. But if memory serves me, being able to was part of the proposed changes for 2019.

 

It was changed in ~2016 to allow for an "inadvertent" 15th club to be declared out of play with no penalty before the round. The only change to these rules for 2019 is the ability to continue playing with a damaged club (even one damaged outside the "normal course of play") and the inability to replace a club that you caused the damage to.

[big_z]

If by some chance the version you have is not considered a club (and only a training aid) like the orange whip Sawgrass mentioned, then you can carry it but not use it during the round.

 

So I can have an Orange Whip in my bag, swing it on the first tee box before my first stroke, but I can't swing it after I make my first stroke until my round is over without incurring a penalty?

 

If so, where is the line between a training aid and a "medical aid"? Can I use a foam roller on a hamstring that tightens up mid-round? My back tightening up would be the primary reason I would want to swing my Orange Whip mid-round.

[Stuart_G]

Can't you declare extra clubs in your bag that you will not use prior to play?

 

Not currently. But if memory serves me, being able to was part of the proposed changes for 2019.

 

It was changed in ~2016 to allow for an "inadvertent" 15th club to be declared out of play with no penalty before the round. The only change to these rules for 2019 is the ability to continue playing with a damaged club (even one damaged outside the "normal course of play") and the inability to replace a club that you caused the damage to.

 

Thanks - I wasn't clear but I was thinking more in the context of this discussion which is an intentional act, not an inadvertent act addressed last year.

[Stuart_G]

If by some chance the version you have is not considered a club (and only a training aid) like the orange whip Sawgrass mentioned, then you can carry it but not use it during the round.

 

So I can have an Orange Whip in my bag, swing it on the first tee box before my first stroke, but I can't swing it after I make my first stroke until my round is over without incurring a penalty?

 

Correct.

 

If so, where is the line between a training aid and a "medical aid"? Can I use a foam roller on a hamstring that tightens up mid-round? My back tightening up would be the primary reason I would want to swing my Orange Whip mid-round.

 

That's a blurry one - but it's one that has to be defined/approved by the committee prior to the round or competition. I can tell you that specific stretching devices are generally not approved so I wouldn't have very high expectations of something like that being approved.

 

But as I said before - instead just grab a couple of your irons and swing them together. Nothing wrong with that.

[Sawgrass]

Can't you declare extra clubs in your bag that you will not use prior to play?

 

Not currently. But if memory serves me, being able to was part of the proposed changes for 2019.

 

It was changed in ~2016 to allow for an "inadvertent" 15th club to be declared out of play with no penalty before the round. The only change to these rules for 2019 is the ability to continue playing with a damaged club (even one damaged outside the "normal course of play") and the inability to replace a club that you caused the damage to.

 

Thanks - I wasn't clear but I was thinking more in the context of this discussion which is an intentional act, not an inadvertent act addressed last year.

The Decision allowing one to declare a club out of play prior to a round is self-admittedly very narrow and IMO would not allow for the deliberate carrying of a non-conforming club:

 

4-4c/1

 

Excess Club Declared Out of Play Before Round

 

Q.Shortly before the start of a round, a player discovers that he inadvertently has 15 clubs in his golf bag. He declares one of the clubs out of play to his opponent, marker or fellow-competitor and begins the round. Is the player subject to penalty?

 

A.No. In these narrow circumstances (i.e., the discovery was made shortly before the round, the player had 15 clubs, having the extra club was inadvertent and the player declared one of the clubs out of play), for the purposes of applying Rule 4-4a, the player is not considered to be carrying the club or to have selected the club for play, even though it is physically in his possession. If possible, the player should seek to highlight the club that is out of play by setting it apart from the other clubs, such as by placing it on the floor of his golf cart or turning it upside down in his golf bag.

 

In any other circumstances (e.g., the player carries more than 15 clubs, etc.), the player is in breach of Rule 4-4a. (Revised)

[Stuart_G]

Thanks - I wasn't clear but I was thinking more in the context of this discussion which is an intentional act, not an inadvertent act addressed last year.

The Decision allowing one to declare a club out of play prior to a round is self-admittedly very narrow and IMO would not allow for the deliberate carrying of a non-conforming club:

 

Thanks - yes I was aware of that (sorry if there was any confusion). I was referring to what I (mistakenly) thought was one of the proposed changes for 2019 - but which doesn't really exist.

[Sawgrass]

Thanks - I wasn't clear but I was thinking more in the context of this discussion which is an intentional act, not an inadvertent act addressed last year.

The Decision allowing one to declare a club out of play prior to a round is self-admittedly very narrow and IMO would not allow for the deliberate carrying of a non-conforming club:

 

Thanks - yes I was aware of that (sorry if there was any confusion). I was referring to what I (mistakenly) thought was one of the proposed changes for 2019 - but which doesn't really exist.

Yes, I thought you knew, and was speaking principally to Farlo to make sure it was clear.

[Hawkeye77]

While using a hinged Medicus during a round would be obvious, I don't think it would be helpful to us to ask the RBs to precisely define which kind of nonconforming club could be carried and not used without penalty, and which could even be carried. After all, some are invisibly nonconforming.

 

I agree, it would not be helpful.

 

What I don't understand is why the rules don't permit one to carry a non-conforming club. I can certainly understand why they would not permit you to use a non-conforming club. But why ban a sort of nebulous category of things that are clubs, except that they are not clubs?

 

Pretty easy to carry and use a non conforming club that could look to most people 100% legit if there is no prohibition against both.

[seajohn]

Would a baseball bat be a club? Polo mallet? Cricket bat?

 

I know people who use a foot mashie to "hit" balls. Is that a club? If it is, does it count as 1 or 2 clubs against the 14 club limit?

[Dpavs]

Threads like this prove the existence of the multiverse (meta-universe)... as we move from the reasonable universe to the absurd one without really even noticing the worm hole we just traveled through.

[Yrrdead]

If by some chance the version you have is not considered a club (and only a training aid) like the orange whip Sawgrass mentioned, then you can carry it but not use it during the round.

 

So I can have an Orange Whip in my bag, swing it on the first tee box before my first stroke, but I can't swing it after I make my first stroke until my round is over without incurring a penalty?

 

If so, where is the line between a training aid and a "medical aid"? Can I use a foam roller on a hamstring that tightens up mid-round? My back tightening up would be the primary reason I would want to swing my Orange Whip mid-round.

 

14-3/10.5

 

Use of Stretching Devices

 

Q.Rule 14-3a prohibits a player, during a stipulated round, from using any artificial device or unusual equipment, or using any equipment in an abnormal manner, that "might assist him in making a stroke or in his play." Would the use of a stretching device during a stipulated round be a breach of Rule 14-3?

 

A.During a stipulated round, it is permissible to use a device designed for stretching unless the device is designed specifically to be used in a golf swing and is used during a golf swing (see Decision 14-3/10). For example, the following stretching devices may be used:

• Items designed specifically for golf but not used in a golf swing (e.g., a bar to place across the shoulders);
  
• Items designed for general stretching (e.g., rubber tubing); and
  
• Items not originally designed for stretching (e.g., a section of pipe). (Revised)
  

 

Foam rollers are just fine.

[raynorfan1]

While using a hinged Medicus during a round would be obvious, I don't think it would be helpful to us to ask the RBs to precisely define which kind of nonconforming club could be carried and not used without penalty, and which could even be carried. After all, some are invisibly nonconforming.

 

I agree, it would not be helpful.

 

What I don't understand is why the rules don't permit one to carry a non-conforming club. I can certainly understand why they would not permit you to use a non-conforming club. But why ban a sort of nebulous category of things that are clubs, except that they are not clubs?

 

Pretty easy to carry and use a non conforming club that could look to most people 100% legit if there is no prohibition against both.

 

Cheaters are gonna cheat. It feels odd to have these rules in place and then puff our chests about how golf is a game of integrity where you call penalties on yourself.

 

There are myriad examples of situations where a player could cheat without careful observation by somebody else...but we trust players not to do those.

[Newby]

We don't see many of these things in the UK and the USGA doesn't recognise me but has anyone over there thought to ask the USGA?

[DavePelz4]

Back in 2010 Juli Inkster was DQ'd for using a weighted club as a way to stay loose during a delay in her round. Not knowing if this rule changed since 2010 but why would that be different that the Medicus?

[DavePelz4]

Now that the wheels start turning, wasn't DA Points DQ'd for using a foam ball during the Pebble Beach event?

[raynorfan1]

Now that the wheels start turning, wasn't DA Points DQ'd for using a foam ball during the Pebble Beach event?

 

This set of rules has all kinds of weird nuance. You can't use an artificial device or unusual equipment to emulate a stroke.

 

If you use the foam ball to massage your arm, no violation. If you hold the foam ball between your elbow and side, while you take a practice swing, that's use of an artificial device / unusual equipment.

 

The further oddity is that you can do exactly the same thing with regular equipment (a head cover or glove, for example).

[raynorfan1]

Back in 2010 Juli Inkster was DQ'd for using a weighted club as a way to stay loose during a delay in her round. Not knowing if this rule changed since 2010 but why would that be different that the Medicus?

 

Nobody (I think) is wondering if you can use a Medicus during a round. That's pretty clearly unusual equipment used to help make a stroke.

 

The question is whether you can even carry it in your bag without being penalized for carrying an illegal club.

 

Juli Inkster's weighted donut could clearly be carried in her bag (I'm sure her caddy appreciated it...) without it being mistaken for an illegal club; but she couldn't use it.

[DavePelz4]

Back in 2010 Juli Inkster was DQ'd for using a weighted club as a way to stay loose during a delay in her round. Not knowing if this rule changed since 2010 but why would that be different that the Medicus?

 

Nobody (I think) is wondering if you can use a Medicus during a round. That's pretty clearly unusual equipment used to help make a stroke.

 

The question is whether you can even carry it in your bag without being penalized for carrying an illegal club.

 

Juli Inkster's weighted donut could clearly be carried in her bag (I'm sure her caddy appreciated it...) without it being mistaken for an illegal club; but she couldn't use it.

 

If her head cover was weighted would that have been OK?

[raynorfan1]

Back in 2010 Juli Inkster was DQ'd for using a weighted club as a way to stay loose during a delay in her round. Not knowing if this rule changed since 2010 but why would that be different that the Medicus?

 

Nobody (I think) is wondering if you can use a Medicus during a round. That's pretty clearly unusual equipment used to help make a stroke.

 

The question is whether you can even carry it in your bag without being penalized for carrying an illegal club.

 

Juli Inkster's weighted donut could clearly be carried in her bag (I'm sure her caddy appreciated it...) without it being mistaken for an illegal club; but she couldn't use it.

 

If her head cover was weighted would that have been OK?

 

Presumably, yes. I'm not sure at what point a head cover would go from being equipment to being an artificial device.

[Stuart_G]

If her head cover was weighted would that have been OK?

 

As far as the rules go, most likely yes, particularly if it's naturally heavy. If you specifically add weight for this purpose it might get a bit fuzzy - (w/ 14-3 sometimes you never know what the RB's consider unusual or not until they make a ruling). However, w/o some kind of additional strap, it's likely not going to stay on while swinging (ask me how I know :-)

[Sawgrass]

Back in 2010 Juli Inkster was DQ'd for using a weighted club as a way to stay loose during a delay in her round. Not knowing if this rule changed since 2010 but why would that be different that the Medicus?

 

Nobody (I think) is wondering if you can use a Medicus during a round. That's pretty clearly unusual equipment used to help make a stroke.

 

The question is whether you can even carry it in your bag without being penalized for carrying an illegal club.

 

Juli Inkster's weighted donut could clearly be carried in her bag (I'm sure her caddy appreciated it...) without it being mistaken for an illegal club; but she couldn't use it.

 

If her head cover was weighted would that have been OK?

 

Presumably, yes. I'm not sure at what point a head cover would go from being equipment to being an artificial device.

I believe the "point" where it becomes illegal to use is when the weight is added for the purpose of loosening up your swing. Perhaps undetectable . . . but you know what you did!

[raynorfan1]

I believe the "point" where it becomes illegal to use is when the weight is added for the purpose of loosening up your swing. Perhaps undetectable . . . but you know what you did!

 

I'm not sure. Couldn't you carry a very heavy (but legal) club that you never intended to hit a ball with for exactly this purpose? The RoG have no problem with you intentionally using regular equipment in abnormal ways.

[Stuart_G]

I'm not sure. Couldn't you carry a very heavy (but legal) club that you never intended to hit a ball with for exactly this purpose?

 

Yes - but if it's legal, it's not considered unusual so not really much help as an analogy.

 

 

The RoG have no problem with you intentionally using regular equipment in abnormal ways.

 

Well - during a practice swing yes but not during an actual stroke.

 

BUT the potential problem is that adding weight to a club head cover for the purpose of helping you stay loose could change it from being 'regular' equipment to an artificial device - or unusual equipment - which can't be used even in a practice swing.

[Sawgrass]

I believe the "point" where it becomes illegal to use is when the weight is added for the purpose of loosening up your swing. Perhaps undetectable . . . but you know what you did!

 

I'm not sure. Couldn't you carry a very heavy (but legal) club that you never intended to hit a ball with for exactly this purpose? The RoG have no problem with you intentionally using regular equipment in abnormal ways.

I'm saying that the moment you add weight to a piece of normal equipment (a head cover) for the purposes of loosening up, you have transformed that normal equipment into unusual equipment.

 

As to being sure, I'm 100% confident that I'm not. I have had several exchanges with the USGA on such issues, all of which have been "close to the line."

 

I have been told, for instance, that while I may toss some grass in the air to test the wind direction, I may not throw a light head cover in the air for that same purpose. I was told that I may hold a handkerchief in my hand to test wind direction . . . I didn't ask about throwing it in the air -- but I presume I may not given the head cover ruling.

 

This 14-3 stuff, to me, is the most confusing and potentially inconsistent of all aspects of the Rules. The easy way to deal with it is don't do or use anything unusual! (I can manage that.)

[Sawgrass]

Here's a potentially helpful, and possibly confusing, Q&A that I found on the USGA's website some time ago and which I added to the above questions about wind and head covers. Note the comment about "design":

Rule 14-3

 

Wind Socks

Q.May a wind sock or similar device be used to gauge or measure wind speed or direction?

A.The use of such an artificial device for gauging wind conditions is a breach of Rule 14-3, the penalty for which is disqualification.

 

However, symbolic ribbons, flags, etc. are permitted and may, incidentally, provide information regarding wind conditions.

 

The difference in the answers is due to the designed purpose of the device in question. A wind sock is designed for the sole purpose of providing information on the wind, thus, its use is clearly prohibited by Rule 14-3.

[raynorfan1]

I'm saying that the moment you add weight to a piece of normal equipment (a head cover) for the purposes of loosening up, you have transformed that normal equipment into unusual equipment.

 

But if you add weight to a piece of normal equipment (a club), you have certainly not transformed it to unusual equipment.

 

Agree that this is brutally confusing / inconsistent.

[raynorfan1]

Here's a potentially helpful, and possibly confusing, Q&A that I found on the USGA's website some time ago and which I added to the above questions about wind and head covers. Note the comment about "design":

Rule 14-3

 

Wind Socks

 

Q.May a wind sock or similar device be used to gauge or measure wind speed or direction?

A.The use of such an artificial device for gauging wind conditions is a breach of Rule 14-3, the penalty for which is disqualification.

 

However, symbolic ribbons, flags, etc. are permitted and may, incidentally, provide information regarding wind conditions.

 

The difference in the answers is due to the designed purpose of the device in question. A wind sock is designed for the sole purpose of providing information on the wind, thus, its use is clearly prohibited by Rule 14-3.

 

This is a good proxy. But the key here is: "A wind sock is designed for the sole purpose of providing information on the wind" - the wind sock is clearly an artificial device. The head cover, as long as it is a bona-fide head cover, is designed for the primary purpose of covering the club. The added benefit of being a weight donut is not what it was built for.

[Stuart_G]

This 14-3 stuff, to me, is the most confusing and potentially inconsistent of all aspects of the Rules.

 

I agree (although the rule on advice comes in as a close second). I see it a little differently though. It's true that it is confusing but that generally implies that it's difficult but possible to understand. And that I don't agree with. It's (IMO) intentionally vague to allow for ruling against unanticipated possibilities the RB's want to be able to prevent w/o having to change the rule.

 

 

But if you add weight to a piece of normal equipment (a club), you have certainly not transformed it to unusual equipment.

 

It's usual and common thing to manipulate the weight of a club, that's not the case for a head cover (or most other equipment). So the club example is more likely an exception then a rule.

[raynorfan1]

I agree that it would be a really aggressive play to use some gorilla glue to paste a weighted donut into the end of a head cover.

 

Also aggressive to ask Juju or other custom head cover maker to sew a donut into the liner.

 

But if you go to the maker and say, "I want a really solid head cover, one that's really heavy, maybe with a lead liner in there." I can't say that's against the rules - there are no weight expectations on head covers.