Medicus in the bag. Allowed?

[Matthewuwf]

Gentlemen rule enforces I yield to you. Didn't see this in a previous topic. I always have my medicus in my bag. My routine is to swing with it and stretch whenever I get to the range. Say what you will about it's effectiveness bit I think it helps with my biggest issue which is my tempo. Occasionally when I'm playing alone and my swing feels out of whack I will take it out, swing it a few times, them back to business. I have a 13 club bag so would it count as a club?. Is keeping this in my bag and/or swinging it on the course a rules violation? I don't think it would be, except for the grip formed handle? Thanks.

[Sawgrass]

As I understand it, the Medicus meets the definition of a club, so it counts as one of the 14 clubs you're allowed to carry. But it's unusual equipment, a non-conforming club/training aid, so you may not use it during a stipulated round.

 

I carry an Orange Whip because I want to loosen up before a round and as it doesn't have a club head it's not a club (it's merely a training aid) and therefore doesn't count against my 14.

[Shilgy]

The Medicus would be not confirming though I think. Don't the have the instructor grip?

 

Sawgrass, I'm confused. How can it count as a club and be unusual equipment?

 

But your correct it can't be used during a round.

[Sawgrass]

The Medicus would be not confirming though I think. Don't the have the instructor grip?

 

Sawgrass, I'm confused. How can it count as a club and be unusual equipment?

 

But your correct it can't be used during a round.

I called it unusual equipment in that it is a grossly non-conforming club. I suppose it's both a training aid and an illegal club. Irrespective of what you call it, I believe it may be a 4-1 violation simply to carry it, and a 4-4 violation as well if you carry it along with 14 other clubs.

[Newby]

It depends on which medicus device you are talking about.

The Dual-Hinge Driver is a training aid.

The PowerMax is a non-conforming club.

[Stuart_G]

It depends on which medicus device you are talking about.

 

The Dual-Hinge Driver is a training aid.

The PowerMax is a non-conforming club.

 

If it's designed to hit golf balls and has all the basic parts of a club then I think the rules would look at it as a club. So not sure why you think the Dual-Hinge driver would only be a training aid and not also seen as a non-conforming club? I would think the hinges in the shaft would just be additional aspects in which it's non-conforming.

 

 

Is keeping this in my bag and/or swinging it on the course a rules violation? I don't think it would be, except for the grip formed handle? Thanks.

 

Just in case it wasn't clear from the other responses. If it's considered a club and non-conforming in any way (even if it's just the grip), then just carrying it is against the rules.

 

If by some chance the version you have is not considered a club (and only a training aid) like the orange whip Sawgrass mentioned, then you can carry it but not use it during the round.

 

You can, however, grab two of your irons and swing them together to have something heavier then normal to swing and help you with your rhythm.

[Newby]

It depends on which medicus device you are talking about.

 

The is a training aid.

The PowerMax is a non-conforming club.

 

If it's designed to hit golf balls and has all the basic parts of a club then I think the rules would look at it as a club. So not sure why you think the Dual-Hinge driver would only be a training aid and not also seen as a non-conforming club? I would think the hinges in the shaft would just be additional aspects in which it's non-conforming.

 

 

I contacted Medicus some years ago and they said they considered it to be a training aid and that is how their website classifies it.

 

http://p.medicuskickx.com/brands/medicus

 

Select Training Aids

[Stuart_G]

It depends on which medicus device you are talking about.

 

The is a training aid.

The PowerMax is a non-conforming club.

 

If it's designed to hit golf balls and has all the basic parts of a club then I think the rules would look at it as a club. So not sure why you think the Dual-Hinge driver would only be a training aid and not also seen as a non-conforming club? I would think the hinges in the shaft would just be additional aspects in which it's non-conforming.

 

 

I contacted Medicus some years ago and they said they considered it to be a training aid and that is how their website classifies it.

 

http://p.medicuskick.../brands/medicus

 

Select Training Aids

 

Thanks - but it's hardly surprising they classify it as a training aid - but isn't the USGA's / R+A's classification more relevant when it comes to applying the rules?

[Newby]

I assume they checked with the RBs. They must know their product classifications might be contentious.

 

What they wouldn't want is a high profile player getting caught out in a tour event.

[LeoLeo99]

I assume they checked with the RBs. They must know their product classifications might be contentious.

 

What they wouldn't want is a high profile player getting caught out in a tour event.

 

Oh, I don't think they'd mind.

[Stuart_G]

I assume they checked with the RBs. They must know their product classifications might be contentious.

 

What they wouldn't want is a high profile player getting caught out in a tour event.

 

I wouldn't assume that all - especially since the rules don't actually define what a training aid is or isn't (only what's "unusual equipment").nor is there anything that says it can't be both a training aid and a club.

[Newby]

I assume they checked with the RBs. They must know their product classifications might be contentious.

 

What they wouldn't want is a high profile player getting caught out in a tour event.

 

I wouldn't assume that all - especially since the rules don't actually define what a training aid is or isn't (only what's "unusual equipment").nor is there anything that says it can't be both a training aid and a club.

 

Why would they categorise it as training aid on their website?

[Hawkeye77]

I assume they checked with the RBs. They must know their product classifications might be contentious.

 

What they wouldn't want is a high profile player getting caught out in a tour event.

 

I wouldn't assume that all - especially since the rules don't actually define what a training aid is or isn't (only what's "unusual equipment").nor is there anything that says it can't be both a training aid and a club.

 

Why would they categorise it as training aid on their website?

 

Presumably that's the purpose for which it is designed and then marketed. Not have to relate to ROG.

[Stuart_G]

Presumably that's the purpose for which it is designed and then marketed. Not have to relate to ROG.

 

I would agree. Marketing.

[deadsolid...shank]

It depends on which medicus device you are talking about.

 

The Dual-Hinge Driver is a training aid.

The PowerMax is a non-conforming club.

 

If it's designed to hit golf balls and has all the basic parts of a club then I think the rules would look at it as a club. So not sure why you think the Dual-Hinge driver would only be a training aid and not also seen as a non-conforming club? I would think the hinges in the shaft would just be additional aspects in which it's non-conforming.

 

 

Is keeping this in my bag and/or swinging it on the course a rules violation? I don't think it would be, except for the grip formed handle? Thanks.

 

Just in case it wasn't clear from the other responses. If it's considered a club and non-conforming in any way (even if it's just the grip), then just carrying it is against the rules.

 

 

If a club is non-conforming you can't even carry it. Learn something new every day.

 

Like a two faced chipper? What is the penalty for having it in the bag? Assuming it does not take you over 14.

[Sawgrass]

It depends on which medicus device you are talking about.

 

The Dual-Hinge Driver is a training aid.

The PowerMax is a non-conforming club.

 

If it's designed to hit golf balls and has all the basic parts of a club then I think the rules would look at it as a club. So not sure why you think the Dual-Hinge driver would only be a training aid and not also seen as a non-conforming club? I would think the hinges in the shaft would just be additional aspects in which it's non-conforming.

 

 

Is keeping this in my bag and/or swinging it on the course a rules violation? I don't think it would be, except for the grip formed handle? Thanks.

 

Just in case it wasn't clear from the other responses. If it's considered a club and non-conforming in any way (even if it's just the grip), then just carrying it is against the rules.

 

 

If a club is non-conforming you can't even carry it. Learn something new every day.

 

Like a two faced chipper? What is the penalty for having it in the bag? Assuming it does not take you over 14.

*Penalty for Carrying, but not Making Stroke with, Club or Clubs in Breach of Rule 4-1 or 4-2:

Match play - At the conclusion of the hole at which the breach is discovered, the state of the match is adjusted by deducting one hole for each hole at which a breach occurred; maximum deduction per round - Two holes.

Stroke play - Two strokes for each hole at which any breach occurred; maximum penalty per round - Four strokes (two strokes at each of the first two holes at which any breach occurred).

Match play or stroke play - If a breach is discovered between the play of two holes, it is deemed to have been discovered during play of the next hole, and the penalty must be applied accordingly.

Bogey and par competitions - See Note 1 to Rule 32-1a.

Stableford competitions - See Note 1 to Rule 32-1b.

*Any club or clubs carried in breach of Rule 4-1 or 4-2 must be declared out of play by the player to his opponent in match play or his marker or a fellow-competitor in stroke play immediately upon discovery that a breach has occurred. If the player fails to do so, he is disqualified.

Penalty for Making Stroke with Club in Breach of Rule 4-1 or 4-2:

Disqualification.

[raynorfan1]

This is one of the catch 22's of the RoG that I've never been able to wrap my head around.

 

(1) There is a specific definition (including specifications) of a "club";

(2) You can't carry "non conforming" clubs.

 

But a "non conforming" club is not a "club" (by definition, it doesn't meet the requirements of being a "club"). So you have this weird situation of defining something by what it isn't. What makes a medicus a "club" but an orange whip, or a baseball bat, or a piece of re-bar, not a club?

[Stuart_G]

A club is an implement designed to be used for striking the ball and generally comes in three forms: woods, irons and putters distinguished by shape and intended use. A putter is a club with a loft not exceeding ten degrees designed primarily for use on the putting green.

 

The club must be composed of a shaft and a head and it may also have material added to the shaft to enable the player to obtain a firm hold (see 3 below)

 

I don't see anything that implies that being conforming is part of the definition of "a club".

[sui generis]

From Appendix II

 

The club must be composed of a shaft and a head and it may also have material added to the shaft to enable the player to obtain a firm hold

 

and later on:

 

At any point along its length, the shaft must:

 

(i) bend in such a way that the deflection is the same regardless of how the shaft is rotated about its longitudinal axis; and

 

(ii) twist the same amount in both directions.

 

Thus making a Medicus a club and a non-conforming club.

 

As to the marketing of the thing. Who would try to entice us to part with our money for a "non-conforming" club when they can call it a "training aid?"

[Dpavs]

A club is an implement designed to be used for striking the ball and generally comes in three forms: woods, irons and putters distinguished by shape and intended use. A putter is a club with a loft not exceeding ten degrees designed primarily for use on the putting green.

 

I don't see anything that implies that being conforming is part of the definition of "a club".

 

I was thinking the same thing and as Medicus clearly advertises that you can hit balls with their club-training aid... it sure looks like it would count as a club and moreover be a non-conforming club to me.

[raynorfan1]

A club is an implement designed to be used for striking the ball and generally comes in three forms: woods, irons and putters distinguished by shape and intended use. A putter is a club with a loft not exceeding ten degrees designed primarily for use on the putting green.

 

I don't see anything that implies that being conforming is part of the definition of "a club".

 

Would a baseball bat be a club? Polo mallet? Cricket bat?

[Stuart_G]

Would a baseball bat be a club? Polo mallet? Cricket bat?

 

I believe it's implied that the ball it (the "club") is designed to hit is only with respect to a golf ball. The fact that you could hit a golf ball with those items doesn't mean they were specifically designed to hit a golf ball. Also, the original quote was a bit incomplete - I added (as did sui) some additional requirements.

 

I was thinking the same thing and as Medicus clearly advertises that you can hit balls with their club raining aid... it sure looks like it would count as a club and moreover be a non-conforming club to me.

 

Yes, without further clarification from the USGA or R+A - that would be the criteria I'd feel obliged to use.

[raynorfan1]

Would a baseball bat be a club? Polo mallet? Cricket bat?

 

I believe it's implied that the ball it (the "club") is designed to hit is only with respect to a golf ball. The fact that you could hit a golf ball with those items doesn't mean they were specifically designed to hit a golf ball. Also, the original quote was a bit incomplete - I added (as did sui) some additional requirements.

 

This is what I can't wrap my head around. The RoG generally don't imply things that they intend to be clear. They're, in most cases, painfully specific.

 

Not to get pedantic here, but my 2 year old has a little wooden game that involves pounding golf balls through a hole (and then they clickity-clack through a little rube goldberg maze) with a little wooden mallet. Is her little wooden mallet a club? FWIW she only uses ProV1s...

[Stuart_G]

Well one might consider it more then being implied - they do define what a 'ball' is as well as a 'club'.

[raynorfan1]

Well one might consider it more then being implied - they do define what a 'ball' is as well as a 'club'.

 

So if Medicus, says with a *wink*, "this club is not intended to hit conforming golf balls", then everybody's cool? This is what's hard for me to reconcile - the rules are trying to discern intent from a party (the club designer) who isn't at the competition.

[Sawgrass]

To me, while it clearly has a grip and a shaft, the lack of a head on an Orange Whip causes it to fail to meet the definition of a club. The grip, shaft and head on a Medicus seems to fit just fine. And the hinged shaft on a Medicus clearly throws it into the non-conforming category.

 

I appreciate the fact that I can carry an Orange Whip without having to displace a legitimate club which I might end up using. (I like to use it to warm up right before I tee off on #1 and wouldn't be able to easily get it back in my car before I start.) And I respect that I should not even carry a non-conforming club since either accidentally or purposefully using a nonconforming club is so inappropriate. While using a hinged Medicus during a round would be obvious, I don't think it would be helpful to us to ask the RBs to precisely define which kind of nonconforming club could be carried and not used without penalty, and which could even be carried. After all, some are invisibly nonconforming.

[Stuart_G]

Well one might consider it more then being implied - they do define what a 'ball' is as well as a 'club'.

 

So if Medicus, says with a *wink*, "this club is not intended to hit conforming golf balls", then everybody's cool? This is what's hard for me to reconcile - the rules are trying to discern intent from a party (the club designer) who isn't at the competition.

 

You're back to claiming that the definition is dependent on conformance ;-)

[raynorfan1]

While using a hinged Medicus during a round would be obvious, I don't think it would be helpful to us to ask the RBs to precisely define which kind of nonconforming club could be carried and not used without penalty, and which could even be carried. After all, some are invisibly nonconforming.

 

I agree, it would not be helpful.

 

What I don't understand is why the rules don't permit one to carry a non-conforming club. I can certainly understand why they would not permit you to use a non-conforming club. But why ban a sort of nebulous category of things that are clubs, except that they are not clubs?

[raynorfan1]

Well one might consider it more then being implied - they do define what a 'ball' is as well as a 'club'.

 

So if Medicus, says with a *wink*, "this club is not intended to hit conforming golf balls", then everybody's cool? This is what's hard for me to reconcile - the rules are trying to discern intent from a party (the club designer) who isn't at the competition.

 

You're back to claiming that the definition is dependent on conformance ;-)

 

That's because it is. You concluded above that the club had to be designed to hit a golf ball, which has a specific definition. A tennis ball is not a conforming golf ball.

 

Medicus could say that *wink* these clubs are intended to be used with Almost Golf golf balls only.

[farlo001]

Can't you declare extra clubs in your bag that you will not use prior to play?