Meta-Awareness Learning

[baudi]

I love Martin Hall. Never met him but I am quite confident that he understands the issue of this thread very, very well.

[Tanner25]

How does MA differ from a "swing your swing" approach?

[jbw749]

Would anyone argue you need both athletic and mental skills to play golf? (No arguing that would be ridiculous)

 

Do most non professionals work on the mental side?

 

What is the ratio of athletic to mental practice time you are currently using?

 

What is the ratio of athletic to mental lesson time from your instructor?

 

Does your instructor address the mental side at all or even mentioned it?

 

Could it be a giant piece of the puzzle is not being addressed and really never has?

 

Could some people (a boat load) need some mental work to complement the physical or they will spin their wheels?

 

Could an over the top banana slice be a result of hit impulse, fear of failure or some sort of anxiety?

 

 

 

 

 

[Tanner25]

Would anyone argue you need both athletic and mental skills to play golf? (No arguing that would be ridiculous)

 

Do most non professionals work on the mental side?

 

What is the ratio of athletic to mental practice time you are currently using?

 

What is the ratio of athletic to mental lesson time from your instructor?

 

Does your instructor address the mental side at all or even mentioned it?

 

Could it be a giant piece of the puzzle is not being addressed and really never has?

 

Could some people (a boat load) need some mental work to complement the physical or they will spin their wheels?

 

Could an over the top banana slice be a result of hit impulse, fear of failure or some sort of anxiety?

 

Ok, so it is both. Perhaps, work on technique on the range and let it happen on the course?

[Nard_S]

Ok, so it is both. Perhaps, work on technique on the range and let it happen on the course?

 

I used to hold that belief but have found it's best to be all in with it in practice too and you get better progress on the wonky stuff and come round time, can utilize it better. It's not groovy Haight-Ashbury mentality, it's a proper balance of the conscious working TO the unconscious and more on it's level. It's allocating brain watts more productively and liberation of sorts for the body to do it's thing better. Putting aside junk data of emotion and not working in the prism that our conscious really controls our lives & body, when mental health, going back to Freud and further still with Eastern disciplines has pointed out how flawed that idea is. It's a skill to master, a discipline, so it takes practice.

[jbw749]

Learning MA is realitvly easy once you understand it.

Making the switch is pretty difficult for exact same reasons you need to do it.

 

So the resistance you feel towards moving to MA and how it relates to golf is why you need to do it.

 

 

 

 

[Jim Waldron]

Some of the things you start to learn when your MA gets better.

 

The clear distinction between "thinking" vs "feeling". Both are "flavors" of consciousness (think like ice cream vanilla and strawberry totally different taste, but same stuff). Most folks do not understand that difference.

 

Thinking is seeing internal visual images or talking to yourself. Feeling is direct perception of your body, ie a sensation or an emotion.

 

When you are picturing a body part in the swing, you are NOT really paying attention to that body part. You are paying attention to a fantasy image of that body part. When you talk to a body part, the body part ain't listening, and if you think it does, you have way bigger problems than a poor golf swing....

 

In that case, you are paying attention to a voice in your head talking to a body part and you have no clue how your body part is objectively moving.

 

My students start to really breakthrough to much faster improvement ie swing changes when they understand this. And it is an important first step in my Yips Cure Program.

 

My guess after 25 years of teaching for a living is this: probably 95% of golfers do NOT understand this vital distinction between thinking and feeling.

 

I have written about this story before on this site but a few years ago I met a guy on the range as I was getting ready to start a day of video taping for my swing instruction series. He chatted with me for a minute and then said that he never got much out of the few lessons he had taken. I asked him for an example and he told me of a lesson he had a month prior. The pro was wanting him to work on a full torso turn away from the target on the backswing. I asked him if he believed that this was correct info for him and he said yes, he could see on video that he did make a full turn, and he had the flexibility to do it too. Then I asked him how exactly he was using his mind to attempt to achieve that full coil, and he told me (and I am not making this up!) "Well I just repeated to myself what the pro told me, "Full coil!". So I said "you mean you heard your voice in your head saying that phrase?" He said "Yes - but it did not work". I said "do you truly believe the pro wanted you to say that phrase while hitting balls" and he said "Why sure! Everyone knows you are supposed to use a swing thought when practicing...that was mine".

 

Now I know the pro he was talking about and I can guarantee you the pro never wanted him to use his voice saying "full coil".

 

The pro wanted his body to achieve a full coil, but the pro incorrectly assumed that the guy must have known that the words "Full coil" was just a way of getting the swing change process started. The pro assumed the guy could feel whether his body was in a full coil position - or not. And that assumption was fatally flawed.

 

But I don't blame the pro or the student for getting this wrong. Its the dominant golf instruction culture, ie a set of beliefs about how to learn and practice, that is the problem.

[Tanner25]

Some of the things you start to learn when your MA gets better.

 

The clear distinction between "thinking" vs "feeling". Both are "flavors" of consciousness (think like ice cream vanilla and strawberry totally different taste, but same stuff). Most folks do not understand that difference.

 

Thinking is seeing internal visual images or talking to yourself. Feeling is direct perception of your body, ie a sensation or an emotion.

 

When you are picturing a body part in the swing, you are NOT really paying attention to that body part. You are paying attention to a fantasy image of that body part. When you talk to a body part, the body part ain't listening, and if you think it does, you have way bigger problems than a poor golf swing....

 

In that case, you are paying attention to a voice in your head talking to a body part and you have no clue how your body part is objectively moving.

 

My students start to really breakthrough to much faster improvement ie swing changes when they understand this. And it is an important first step in my Yips Cure Program.

 

My guess after 25 years of teaching for a living is this: probably 95% of golfers do NOT understand this vital distinction between thinking and feeling.

 

I have written about this story before on this site but a few years ago I met a guy on the range as I was getting ready to start a day of video taping for my swing instruction series. He chatted with me for a minute and then said that he never got much out of the few lessons he had taken. I asked him for an example and he told me of a lesson he had a month prior. The pro was wanting him to work on a full torso turn away from the target on the backswing. I asked him if he believed that this was correct info for him and he said yes, he could see on video that he did make a full turn, and he had the flexibility to do it too. Then I asked him how exactly he was using his mind to attempt to achieve that full coil, and he told me (and I am not making this up!) "Well I just repeated to myself what the pro told me, "Full coil!". So I said "you mean you heard your voice in your head saying that phrase?" He said "Yes - but it did not work". I said "do you truly believe the pro wanted you to say that phrase while hitting balls" and he said "Why sure! Everyone knows you are supposed to use a swing thought when practicing...that was mine".

 

Now I know the pro he was talking about and I can guarantee you the pro never wanted him to use his voice saying "full coil".

 

The pro wanted his body to achieve a full coil, but the pro incorrectly assumed that the guy must have known that the words "Full coil" was just a way of getting the swing change process started. The pro assumed the guy could feel whether his body was in a full coil position - or not. And that assumption was fatally flawed.

 

But I don't blame the pro or the student for getting this wrong. Its the dominant golf instruction culture, ie a set of beliefs about how to learn and practice, that is the problem.

 

So, we swing back trying to feel the coil? But, aren't we telling our self to coil in the first place, before we try to feel the coil? Not challenging anything. Just trying to understand it better.

[ebrasmus21]

So.... anyway .

 

 

Thinking in this topic all day as I worked. As I understand it the root of this meta awareness is self talk and self awareness.

 

I've often wondered why some folks don't seem to have any of this? Mostly the self awareness part.

 

 

Example. Your In a store with narrow aisles. You come to an aisle with someone either talking on the phone , or two people talking to each other. Blocking the way. You pull up close to them expecting a response. You are ignored. ( 6ft 4 guy in my case. Hard to miss ). Do these people lack the voice in their head that constantly loops and scans to make sure they are in their lane , their space and not impeding someone else's progress or business? Or is this a conscious decision they make to be rude ?

 

Another example. Standing at the butchers counter. Some people just walk up out of nowhere and decide they are next. In front of 8-10 people. Do they lack the self awareness to understand how that works ? It's hard for me to imagine that people are that rude on purpose.

 

A third example. Scanning your surroundings. I'm pretty good at being aware of who is in close proximity to me in public. It's just a habit. I scan faces , clothing and mannerisms. 3 times in my life I've had to give a witness report for the police on either a death ( auto ) or robbery... each time I saw the offender or victim minutes before the incidents and recalled details about them that were accurate. But I might not be able to tell you what I ate for breakfast this morning. Lol. Certain things I feel like I have a photographic memory and menial things I don't waste space remembering at alll.

 

My entire existence is spent with a navigation voice In my head making sure I'm not in someone else's way. And that others stay in their lane too. Am I perfect in execution? nope. But , I'm aware of it when I get in someone's way 99% of the time.

 

Maybe off topic. I'm not sure. To me it's not. I'd venture a guess that those of us who have this self awareness also learn things differently and it involves those voices we describe.

 

Further around the mulberry bush. Anyone ever have thoughts on the universe ? As in. What is it inside ? As in are we some aliens ant farm ? Where does if end ? I wonder if anyone else wonders that ? Things like that pop into my head at the strangest times. Anyone else ever feel like they've been here before ? Seriously. The true Dejavu feeling. Not in great detail. Just a feeling that you've seen something before. But in a different setting. Or a Place in a different time ? I've always had the feeling of being an old soul. Like I was born old. My wife shares this " born old " feeling , but doesn't share my curiosity on it. To further push my curiosity on it. We married at 21 (38 3/4 now) and honestly work like best pals. Coincidence? Maybe so.

 

Anyone ever wake up and have a very uneasy feeling. Then have something tragic Happen the same day or find out that it happened earlier ? It's happened to me more times than I can count. It's a sickening feeling. Helpless and scary.

 

I'm 4 years into playing this game. I was around it always. But never played really. I've always felt like I played before though. And when I did start playing I took to it like a duck to water.

 

Random thoughts. No real point I guess. Except that our brains have corners and crevices that we don't understand. And abilities we cannot imagine. When I get a taste of that it makes me wonder even more.

 

I feel like I could have written every word of this post (expect for the 4 years part, I've played longer than that).

[Jim Waldron]

Some of the things you start to learn when your MA gets better.

 

The clear distinction between "thinking" vs "feeling". Both are "flavors" of consciousness (think like ice cream vanilla and strawberry totally different taste, but same stuff). Most folks do not understand that difference.

 

Thinking is seeing internal visual images or talking to yourself. Feeling is direct perception of your body, ie a sensation or an emotion.

 

When you are picturing a body part in the swing, you are NOT really paying attention to that body part. You are paying attention to a fantasy image of that body part. When you talk to a body part, the body part ain't listening, and if you think it does, you have way bigger problems than a poor golf swing....

 

In that case, you are paying attention to a voice in your head talking to a body part and you have no clue how your body part is objectively moving.

 

My students start to really breakthrough to much faster improvement ie swing changes when they understand this. And it is an important first step in my Yips Cure Program.

 

My guess after 25 years of teaching for a living is this: probably 95% of golfers do NOT understand this vital distinction between thinking and feeling.

 

I have written about this story before on this site but a few years ago I met a guy on the range as I was getting ready to start a day of video taping for my swing instruction series. He chatted with me for a minute and then said that he never got much out of the few lessons he had taken. I asked him for an example and he told me of a lesson he had a month prior. The pro was wanting him to work on a full torso turn away from the target on the backswing. I asked him if he believed that this was correct info for him and he said yes, he could see on video that he did make a full turn, and he had the flexibility to do it too. Then I asked him how exactly he was using his mind to attempt to achieve that full coil, and he told me (and I am not making this up!) "Well I just repeated to myself what the pro told me, "Full coil!". So I said "you mean you heard your voice in your head saying that phrase?" He said "Yes - but it did not work". I said "do you truly believe the pro wanted you to say that phrase while hitting balls" and he said "Why sure! Everyone knows you are supposed to use a swing thought when practicing...that was mine".

 

Now I know the pro he was talking about and I can guarantee you the pro never wanted him to use his voice saying "full coil".

 

The pro wanted his body to achieve a full coil, but the pro incorrectly assumed that the guy must have known that the words "Full coil" was just a way of getting the swing change process started. The pro assumed the guy could feel whether his body was in a full coil position - or not. And that assumption was fatally flawed.

 

But I don't blame the pro or the student for getting this wrong. Its the dominant golf instruction culture, ie a set of beliefs about how to learn and practice, that is the problem.

 

So, we swing back trying to feel the coil? But, aren't we telling our self to coil in the first place, before we try to feel the coil? Not challenging anything. Just trying to understand it better.

 

You swing back and feel what you feel, but correlate that to some form of objective feedback. In my program, we do a ton of mirror work in slow mo so you can see if your form is correct and then feel what that correct form feels like.

 

The issue is simply this: when learning a new movement pattern, especially in the early stages prior to the actual establishment of a new neuromuscular ("mind/body connection") pathway, you need to intend to do the new movement to the best of your understanding and then attempt to do it while in feel mode. But you want to do that intended new pattern in slow motion because ONLY at slow motion speed does your conscious mind actually have a reliable level of control over the body motion.

 

As soon as you graduate to full speed motion, it is the non-conscious part of your brain that is in control of your body. That simple fact - and it is indeed a fact, not an opinion, that has been known to science since the mid-19th century, and in the Asian martial arts tradition far longer than that, has never been understood in the traditional golf instruction worldview. Not understanding that fact is one of the main reasons why golf is such a poorly performed sport, compared to other sports.

 

In slow motion, conscious intentions via "thinking" can result in the body actually doing whatever it is you are commanding it to do, especially if using your reflection in the mirror to guide you.

 

So yes, okay to tell yourself to "coil" in the early stages, but vitally important to quickly switch over to feel.

 

Folks who lack confidence in their ability to successfully perform a new skill will often fall back on the "verbal checklist" or "talking to body parts" almost as if they can repeat the verbal commands then somehow magically that will translate into success. It's kind of a neurotic crutch for folks who are insecure and worried about failure. Sometimes in golf - and in life - action is required and that kind of action is kind of a "leap" that takes a bit of courage.

[jbw749]

Jim,

 

How have some people gotten really good despite not using MA? I'm asking because I'm sure it's on people's minds.

And do you think those people are a small group relatively speaking?

[Tanner25]

Some of the things you start to learn when your MA gets better.

 

The clear distinction between "thinking" vs "feeling". Both are "flavors" of consciousness (think like ice cream vanilla and strawberry totally different taste, but same stuff). Most folks do not understand that difference.

 

Thinking is seeing internal visual images or talking to yourself. Feeling is direct perception of your body, ie a sensation or an emotion.

 

When you are picturing a body part in the swing, you are NOT really paying attention to that body part. You are paying attention to a fantasy image of that body part. When you talk to a body part, the body part ain't listening, and if you think it does, you have way bigger problems than a poor golf swing....

 

In that case, you are paying attention to a voice in your head talking to a body part and you have no clue how your body part is objectively moving.

 

My students start to really breakthrough to much faster improvement ie swing changes when they understand this. And it is an important first step in my Yips Cure Program.

 

My guess after 25 years of teaching for a living is this: probably 95% of golfers do NOT understand this vital distinction between thinking and feeling.

 

I have written about this story before on this site but a few years ago I met a guy on the range as I was getting ready to start a day of video taping for my swing instruction series. He chatted with me for a minute and then said that he never got much out of the few lessons he had taken. I asked him for an example and he told me of a lesson he had a month prior. The pro was wanting him to work on a full torso turn away from the target on the backswing. I asked him if he believed that this was correct info for him and he said yes, he could see on video that he did make a full turn, and he had the flexibility to do it too. Then I asked him how exactly he was using his mind to attempt to achieve that full coil, and he told me (and I am not making this up!) "Well I just repeated to myself what the pro told me, "Full coil!". So I said "you mean you heard your voice in your head saying that phrase?" He said "Yes - but it did not work". I said "do you truly believe the pro wanted you to say that phrase while hitting balls" and he said "Why sure! Everyone knows you are supposed to use a swing thought when practicing...that was mine".

 

Now I know the pro he was talking about and I can guarantee you the pro never wanted him to use his voice saying "full coil".

 

The pro wanted his body to achieve a full coil, but the pro incorrectly assumed that the guy must have known that the words "Full coil" was just a way of getting the swing change process started. The pro assumed the guy could feel whether his body was in a full coil position - or not. And that assumption was fatally flawed.

 

But I don't blame the pro or the student for getting this wrong. Its the dominant golf instruction culture, ie a set of beliefs about how to learn and practice, that is the problem.

 

So, we swing back trying to feel the coil? But, aren't we telling our self to coil in the first place, before we try to feel the coil? Not challenging anything. Just trying to understand it better.

 

You swing back and feel what you feel, but correlate that to some form of objective feedback. In my program, we do a ton of mirror work in slow mo so you can see if your form is correct and then feel what that correct form feels like.

 

The issue is simply this: when learning a new movement pattern, especially in the early stages prior to the actual establishment of a new neuromuscular ("mind/body connection") pathway, you need to intend to do the new movement to the best of your understanding and then attempt to do it while in feel mode. But you want to do that intended new pattern in slow motion because ONLY at slow motion speed does your conscious mind actually have a reliable level of control over the body motion.

 

As soon as you graduate to full speed motion, it is the non-conscious part of your brain that is in control of your body. That simple fact - and it is indeed a fact, not an opinion, that has been known to science since the mid-19th century, and in the Asian martial arts tradition far longer than that, has never been understood in the traditional golf instruction worldview. Not understanding that fact is one of the main reasons why golf is such a poorly performed sport, compared to other sports.

 

In slow motion, conscious intentions via "thinking" can result in the body actually doing whatever it is you are commanding it to do, especially if using your reflection in the mirror to guide you.

 

So yes, okay to tell yourself to "coil" in the early stages, but vitally important to quickly switch over to feel.

 

Folks who lack confidence in their ability to successfully perform a new skill will often fall back on the "verbal checklist" or "talking to body parts" almost as if they can repeat the verbal commands then somehow magically that will translate into success. It's kind of a neurotic crutch for folks who are insecure and worried about failure. Sometimes in golf - and in life - action is required and that kind of action is kind of a "leap" that takes a bit of courage.

 

Thanks, Jim. I appreciate the explanation on how you tie together MA and talking to body parts (in the early stages). It makes more sense. Also, it is that leap that is scary. I play once per month and I hate to have a horrible ball striking day and often go back to bad habits (band aids) to have a slightly less than horrible day.

[FourTops]

Some of the things you start to learn when your MA gets better.

 

The clear distinction between "thinking" vs "feeling". Both are "flavors" of consciousness (think like ice cream vanilla and strawberry totally different taste, but same stuff). Most folks do not understand that difference.

 

Thinking is seeing internal visual images or talking to yourself. Feeling is direct perception of your body, ie a sensation or an emotion.

 

When you are picturing a body part in the swing, you are NOT really paying attention to that body part. You are paying attention to a fantasy image of that body part. When you talk to a body part, the body part ain't listening, and if you think it does, you have way bigger problems than a poor golf swing....

 

In that case, you are paying attention to a voice in your head talking to a body part and you have no clue how your body part is objectively moving.

 

My students start to really breakthrough to much faster improvement ie swing changes when they understand this. And it is an important first step in my Yips Cure Program.

 

My guess after 25 years of teaching for a living is this: probably 95% of golfers do NOT understand this vital distinction between thinking and feeling.

 

I have written about this story before on this site but a few years ago I met a guy on the range as I was getting ready to start a day of video taping for my swing instruction series. He chatted with me for a minute and then said that he never got much out of the few lessons he had taken. I asked him for an example and he told me of a lesson he had a month prior. The pro was wanting him to work on a full torso turn away from the target on the backswing. I asked him if he believed that this was correct info for him and he said yes, he could see on video that he did make a full turn, and he had the flexibility to do it too. Then I asked him how exactly he was using his mind to attempt to achieve that full coil, and he told me (and I am not making this up!) "Well I just repeated to myself what the pro told me, "Full coil!". So I said "you mean you heard your voice in your head saying that phrase?" He said "Yes - but it did not work". I said "do you truly believe the pro wanted you to say that phrase while hitting balls" and he said "Why sure! Everyone knows you are supposed to use a swing thought when practicing...that was mine".

 

Now I know the pro he was talking about and I can guarantee you the pro never wanted him to use his voice saying "full coil".

 

The pro wanted his body to achieve a full coil, but the pro incorrectly assumed that the guy must have known that the words "Full coil" was just a way of getting the swing change process started. The pro assumed the guy could feel whether his body was in a full coil position - or not. And that assumption was fatally flawed.

 

But I don't blame the pro or the student for getting this wrong. Its the dominant golf instruction culture, ie a set of beliefs about how to learn and practice, that is the problem.

 

So, we swing back trying to feel the coil? But, aren't we telling our self to coil in the first place, before we try to feel the coil? Not challenging anything. Just trying to understand it better.

 

You swing back and feel what you feel, but correlate that to some form of objective feedback. In my program, we do a ton of mirror work in slow mo so you can see if your form is correct and then feel what that correct form feels like.

 

The issue is simply this: when learning a new movement pattern, especially in the early stages prior to the actual establishment of a new neuromuscular ("mind/body connection") pathway, you need to intend to do the new movement to the best of your understanding and then attempt to do it while in feel mode. But you want to do that intended new pattern in slow motion because ONLY at slow motion speed does your conscious mind actually have a reliable level of control over the body motion.

 

As soon as you graduate to full speed motion, it is the non-conscious part of your brain that is in control of your body. That simple fact - and it is indeed a fact, not an opinion, that has been known to science since the mid-19th century, and in the Asian martial arts tradition far longer than that, has never been understood in the traditional golf instruction worldview. Not understanding that fact is one of the main reasons why golf is such a poorly performed sport, compared to other sports.

 

In slow motion, conscious intentions via "thinking" can result in the body actually doing whatever it is you are commanding it to do, especially if using your reflection in the mirror to guide you.

 

So yes, okay to tell yourself to "coil" in the early stages, but vitally important to quickly switch over to feel.

 

Folks who lack confidence in their ability to successfully perform a new skill will often fall back on the "verbal checklist" or "talking to body parts" almost as if they can repeat the verbal commands then somehow magically that will translate into success. It's kind of a neurotic crutch for folks who are insecure and worried about failure. Sometimes in golf - and in life - action is required and that kind of action is kind of a "leap" that takes a bit of courage.

 

Exactly why professional dancers learn new moves slowly...with tons of mirrors. DWTS is a shining example of this.

[Jim Waldron]

Jim,

 

How have some people gotten really good despite not using MA? I'm asking because I'm sure it's on people's minds.

And do you think those people are a small group relatively speaking?

 

I think there are several reasons. One is that a lot of golfers I have worked with, and other athletes as well, are naturally gifted with MA. So they never had to learn it formally. Any one who is "naturally" successful at learning new skills or problem solving tends to have a talent for MA. I have worked with hundreds of folks like that. Its interesting that some of the top corporate ceo's I have worked with struggled with golf, because they were trying to employ a method, traditional golf instruction approach, that is the polar opposite of the MA-based approach they used to high success in business. I recall working with the ceo of one of the largest corporations on the planet a few years ago that fits that description to a tee. He came to me with a severe case of short game yips, and when we started working with some of the concepts and drills, he totally got it, and realized his whole approach to golf improvement was almost guaranteeing failure.

 

Another reason is that most teaching pros started playing as little kids, and the learning method for children is very different than what will work for adults. Kids can learn very fast through "visual-spatial" learning, ie they watch a good adult golfer and can mimic what they see. That learning bypasses all conscious mind engagement so little MA is required.

 

You can "reverse engineer" your question though, which is: why do so many golfers struggle so much with learning new and better swing movement patterns, and the glaringly obvious answer is no MA and poor feel sense awareness for their body motion, and club motion.

[Jim Waldron]

Some of the things you start to learn when your MA gets better.

 

The clear distinction between "thinking" vs "feeling". Both are "flavors" of consciousness (think like ice cream vanilla and strawberry totally different taste, but same stuff). Most folks do not understand that difference.

 

Thinking is seeing internal visual images or talking to yourself. Feeling is direct perception of your body, ie a sensation or an emotion.

 

When you are picturing a body part in the swing, you are NOT really paying attention to that body part. You are paying attention to a fantasy image of that body part. When you talk to a body part, the body part ain't listening, and if you think it does, you have way bigger problems than a poor golf swing....

 

In that case, you are paying attention to a voice in your head talking to a body part and you have no clue how your body part is objectively moving.

 

My students start to really breakthrough to much faster improvement ie swing changes when they understand this. And it is an important first step in my Yips Cure Program.

 

My guess after 25 years of teaching for a living is this: probably 95% of golfers do NOT understand this vital distinction between thinking and feeling.

 

I have written about this story before on this site but a few years ago I met a guy on the range as I was getting ready to start a day of video taping for my swing instruction series. He chatted with me for a minute and then said that he never got much out of the few lessons he had taken. I asked him for an example and he told me of a lesson he had a month prior. The pro was wanting him to work on a full torso turn away from the target on the backswing. I asked him if he believed that this was correct info for him and he said yes, he could see on video that he did make a full turn, and he had the flexibility to do it too. Then I asked him how exactly he was using his mind to attempt to achieve that full coil, and he told me (and I am not making this up!) "Well I just repeated to myself what the pro told me, "Full coil!". So I said "you mean you heard your voice in your head saying that phrase?" He said "Yes - but it did not work". I said "do you truly believe the pro wanted you to say that phrase while hitting balls" and he said "Why sure! Everyone knows you are supposed to use a swing thought when practicing...that was mine".

 

Now I know the pro he was talking about and I can guarantee you the pro never wanted him to use his voice saying "full coil".

 

The pro wanted his body to achieve a full coil, but the pro incorrectly assumed that the guy must have known that the words "Full coil" was just a way of getting the swing change process started. The pro assumed the guy could feel whether his body was in a full coil position - or not. And that assumption was fatally flawed.

 

But I don't blame the pro or the student for getting this wrong. Its the dominant golf instruction culture, ie a set of beliefs about how to learn and practice, that is the problem.

 

So, we swing back trying to feel the coil? But, aren't we telling our self to coil in the first place, before we try to feel the coil? Not challenging anything. Just trying to understand it better.

 

You swing back and feel what you feel, but correlate that to some form of objective feedback. In my program, we do a ton of mirror work in slow mo so you can see if your form is correct and then feel what that correct form feels like.

 

The issue is simply this: when learning a new movement pattern, especially in the early stages prior to the actual establishment of a new neuromuscular ("mind/body connection") pathway, you need to intend to do the new movement to the best of your understanding and then attempt to do it while in feel mode. But you want to do that intended new pattern in slow motion because ONLY at slow motion speed does your conscious mind actually have a reliable level of control over the body motion.

 

As soon as you graduate to full speed motion, it is the non-conscious part of your brain that is in control of your body. That simple fact - and it is indeed a fact, not an opinion, that has been known to science since the mid-19th century, and in the Asian martial arts tradition far longer than that, has never been understood in the traditional golf instruction worldview. Not understanding that fact is one of the main reasons why golf is such a poorly performed sport, compared to other sports.

 

In slow motion, conscious intentions via "thinking" can result in the body actually doing whatever it is you are commanding it to do, especially if using your reflection in the mirror to guide you.

 

So yes, okay to tell yourself to "coil" in the early stages, but vitally important to quickly switch over to feel.

 

Folks who lack confidence in their ability to successfully perform a new skill will often fall back on the "verbal checklist" or "talking to body parts" almost as if they can repeat the verbal commands then somehow magically that will translate into success. It's kind of a neurotic crutch for folks who are insecure and worried about failure. Sometimes in golf - and in life - action is required and that kind of action is kind of a "leap" that takes a bit of courage.

 

Thanks, Jim. I appreciate the explanation on how you tie together MA and talking to body parts (in the early stages). It makes more sense. Also, it is that leap that is scary. I play once per month and I hate to have a horrible ball striking day and often go back to bad habits (band aids) to have a slightly less than horrible day.

 

So you just need to practice a ton more, including daily at home mirror work, and practice swings at normal tempo in your yard.

 

And play more often if you can so you get more comfortable taking our range skills to the course.

[Jim Waldron]

For some role models who are extreme examples of MA, here is the short list.

 

The leader of the samurai in the classic film "The Seven Samurai" played by the late great Japanese actor Toshiro Mifune.

 

The character based on that guy in "The Magnificent Seven" ie "Chris" played by Yul Brynner.

 

Sherlock Holmes, perhaps the greatest example of sheer MA that we have in the West. He "noticed" all kinds of things about his environment and the people in it because he was awake - not day-dreaming like "normal" folks.

 

Mr. Spock in Star Trek. He nailed both the emotional detachment and the intelligence as well as the awareness of his environment that are all aspects of MA. And he was based on Homes.

 

Dr. Greg House from the hit tv show. Also a character derived from Holmes.

 

The essence of all of those guys I listed is the ability to pay attention, in the moment, and notice what is happening with a high degree of objectivity.

 

Jack Nicklaus is our greatest example of MA in golf, and Tiger pre-scandal was another. I have talked to Jack about his mental game and he is extremely knowledgeable about the subject. Ben Hogan was another tour pro with a vast knowledge of the mental game. Paul Azinger is another tour pro with advanced understanding of the role of the mind in golf.

[FourTops]

For some role models who are extreme examples of MA, here is the short list.

 

The leader of the samurai in the classic film "The Seven Samurai" played by the late great Japanese actor Toshiro Mifune.

 

The character based on that guy in "The Magnificent Seven" ie "Chris" played by Yul Brynner.

 

Sherlock Holmes, perhaps the greatest example of sheer MA that we have in the West. He "noticed" all kinds of things about his environment and the people in it because he was awake - not day-dreaming like "normal" folks.

 

Mr. Spock in Star Trek. He nailed both the emotional detachment and the intelligence as well as the awareness of his environment that are all aspects of MA. And he was based on Homes.

 

Dr. Greg House from the hit tv show. Also a character derived from Holmes.

 

The essence of all of those guys I listed is the ability to pay attention, in the moment, and notice what is happening with a high degree of objectivity.

 

Jack Nicklaus is our greatest example of MA in golf, and Tiger pre-scandal was another. I have talked to Jack about his mental game and he is extremely knowledgeable about the subject. Ben Hogan was another tour pro with a vast knowledge of the mental game. Paul Azinger is another tour pro with advanced understanding of the role of the mind in golf.

 

Interesting that Jack's books never got into the mental side....likely because it's uber-intangible and not popular at the time.

[Jim Waldron]

For some role models who are extreme examples of MA, here is the short list.

 

The leader of the samurai in the classic film "The Seven Samurai" played by the late great Japanese actor Toshiro Mifune.

 

The character based on that guy in "The Magnificent Seven" ie "Chris" played by Yul Brynner.

 

Sherlock Holmes, perhaps the greatest example of sheer MA that we have in the West. He "noticed" all kinds of things about his environment and the people in it because he was awake - not day-dreaming like "normal" folks.

 

Mr. Spock in Star Trek. He nailed both the emotional detachment and the intelligence as well as the awareness of his environment that are all aspects of MA. And he was based on Homes.

 

Dr. Greg House from the hit tv show. Also a character derived from Holmes.

 

The essence of all of those guys I listed is the ability to pay attention, in the moment, and notice what is happening with a high degree of objectivity.

 

Jack Nicklaus is our greatest example of MA in golf, and Tiger pre-scandal was another. I have talked to Jack about his mental game and he is extremely knowledgeable about the subject. Ben Hogan was another tour pro with a vast knowledge of the mental game. Paul Azinger is another tour pro with advanced understanding of the role of the mind in golf.

 

Interesting that Jack's books never got into the mental side....likely because it's uber-intangible and not popular at the time.

 

Right - the market for mental game books or videos is less than 1% of the market for golf swing mechanics. Both Tiger and Hogan did a ton of slow mo mirror work when making swing changes. Jack had amazing ability to focus, and deep confidence in his ability to hit great shots. He also had really high level of awareness for his body and club motion. Moe Norman was another golfing genius who understood MA and the mental side of the game.

 

The traditional approach of conscious mind "connect the dots" using swing "thoughts" and verbal commands to moving body parts while playing has been a catastrophe for our game and we are seeing it now in it's final death throes....thanks to the Internet. I hear from folks everyday who tried that approach and utterly failed to see improvement, and many more who ended up with the yips.

 

The future lies in golf teachers who start the lesson or school with a clear presentation to the student of how the mind/brain/body are naturally designed to learn motor skills. Learning model needs to come before the Swing model. Otherwise all you are doing is handing out a bunch of theory.

[Tanner25]

For some role models who are extreme examples of MA, here is the short list.

 

The leader of the samurai in the classic film "The Seven Samurai" played by the late great Japanese actor Toshiro Mifune.

 

The character based on that guy in "The Magnificent Seven" ie "Chris" played by Yul Brynner.

 

Sherlock Holmes, perhaps the greatest example of sheer MA that we have in the West. He "noticed" all kinds of things about his environment and the people in it because he was awake - not day-dreaming like "normal" folks.

 

Mr. Spock in Star Trek. He nailed both the emotional detachment and the intelligence as well as the awareness of his environment that are all aspects of MA. And he was based on Homes.

 

Dr. Greg House from the hit tv show. Also a character derived from Holmes.

 

The essence of all of those guys I listed is the ability to pay attention, in the moment, and notice what is happening with a high degree of objectivity.

 

Jack Nicklaus is our greatest example of MA in golf, and Tiger pre-scandal was another. I have talked to Jack about his mental game and he is extremely knowledgeable about the subject. Ben Hogan was another tour pro with a vast knowledge of the mental game. Paul Azinger is another tour pro with advanced understanding of the role of the mind in golf.

 

In Tiger's prime, what did he do well? The golf commentators would mainly say, he has a strong mental game and they would leave it at that or make some kind of reference to Earl's military background and tough parenting. How and why was Tiger so good at the mental game as it relates to the swing?

[FourTops]

For some role models who are extreme examples of MA, here is the short list.

 

The leader of the samurai in the classic film "The Seven Samurai" played by the late great Japanese actor Toshiro Mifune.

 

The character based on that guy in "The Magnificent Seven" ie "Chris" played by Yul Brynner.

 

Sherlock Holmes, perhaps the greatest example of sheer MA that we have in the West. He "noticed" all kinds of things about his environment and the people in it because he was awake - not day-dreaming like "normal" folks.

 

Mr. Spock in Star Trek. He nailed both the emotional detachment and the intelligence as well as the awareness of his environment that are all aspects of MA. And he was based on Homes.

 

Dr. Greg House from the hit tv show. Also a character derived from Holmes.

 

The essence of all of those guys I listed is the ability to pay attention, in the moment, and notice what is happening with a high degree of objectivity.

 

Jack Nicklaus is our greatest example of MA in golf, and Tiger pre-scandal was another. I have talked to Jack about his mental game and he is extremely knowledgeable about the subject. Ben Hogan was another tour pro with a vast knowledge of the mental game. Paul Azinger is another tour pro with advanced understanding of the role of the mind in golf.

 

Interesting that Jack's books never got into the mental side....likely because it's uber-intangible and not popular at the time.

 

Right - the market for mental game books or videos is less than 1% of the market for golf swing mechanics. Both Tiger and Hogan did a ton of slow mo mirror work when making swing changes. Jack had amazing ability to focus, and deep confidence in his ability to hit great shots. He also had really high level of awareness for his body and club motion. Moe Norman was another golfing genius who understood MA and the mental side of the game.

 

The traditional approach of conscious mind "connect the dots" using swing "thoughts" and verbal commands to moving body parts while playing has been a catastrophe for our game and we are seeing it now in it's final death throes....thanks to the Internet. I hear from folks everyday who tried that approach and utterly failed to see improvement, and many more who ended up with the yips.

 

The future lies in golf teachers who start the lesson or school with a clear presentation to the student of how the mind/brain/body are naturally designed to learn motor skills. Learning model needs to come before the Swing model. Otherwise all you are doing is handing out a bunch of theory.

 

I remember learning a 2 hand backhand in tennis and having trouble....then I went to an exhibition with Agassi playing and the next day my brain "saw" his movement and improvement was almost instantaneous. Don't know if that's MA. Traditional golf training will one day be seen as barbaric vs. MA focused learning.

[FourTops]

For some role models who are extreme examples of MA, here is the short list.

 

The leader of the samurai in the classic film "The Seven Samurai" played by the late great Japanese actor Toshiro Mifune.

 

The character based on that guy in "The Magnificent Seven" ie "Chris" played by Yul Brynner.

 

Sherlock Holmes, perhaps the greatest example of sheer MA that we have in the West. He "noticed" all kinds of things about his environment and the people in it because he was awake - not day-dreaming like "normal" folks.

 

Mr. Spock in Star Trek. He nailed both the emotional detachment and the intelligence as well as the awareness of his environment that are all aspects of MA. And he was based on Homes.

 

Dr. Greg House from the hit tv show. Also a character derived from Holmes.

 

The essence of all of those guys I listed is the ability to pay attention, in the moment, and notice what is happening with a high degree of objectivity.

 

Jack Nicklaus is our greatest example of MA in golf, and Tiger pre-scandal was another. I have talked to Jack about his mental game and he is extremely knowledgeable about the subject. Ben Hogan was another tour pro with a vast knowledge of the mental game. Paul Azinger is another tour pro with advanced understanding of the role of the mind in golf.

 

In Tiger's prime, what did he do well? The golf commentators would mainly say, he has a strong mental game and they would leave it at that or make some kind of reference to Earl's military background and tough parenting. How and why was Tiger so good at the mental game as it relates to the swing?

 

I doubt Tiger could answer that one because it's in his DNA....it's who he is.

[Jim Waldron]

For some role models who are extreme examples of MA, here is the short list.

 

The leader of the samurai in the classic film "The Seven Samurai" played by the late great Japanese actor Toshiro Mifune.

 

The character based on that guy in "The Magnificent Seven" ie "Chris" played by Yul Brynner.

 

Sherlock Holmes, perhaps the greatest example of sheer MA that we have in the West. He "noticed" all kinds of things about his environment and the people in it because he was awake - not day-dreaming like "normal" folks.

 

Mr. Spock in Star Trek. He nailed both the emotional detachment and the intelligence as well as the awareness of his environment that are all aspects of MA. And he was based on Homes.

 

Dr. Greg House from the hit tv show. Also a character derived from Holmes.

 

The essence of all of those guys I listed is the ability to pay attention, in the moment, and notice what is happening with a high degree of objectivity.

 

Jack Nicklaus is our greatest example of MA in golf, and Tiger pre-scandal was another. I have talked to Jack about his mental game and he is extremely knowledgeable about the subject. Ben Hogan was another tour pro with a vast knowledge of the mental game. Paul Azinger is another tour pro with advanced understanding of the role of the mind in golf.

 

In Tiger's prime, what did he do well? The golf commentators would mainly say, he has a strong mental game and they would leave it at that or make some kind of reference to Earl's military background and tough parenting. How and why was Tiger so good at the mental game as it relates to the swing?

 

Tiger had formal training in the "warrior spirit" or "ethos" from his Dad, who was a special ops guy in Vietnam. MA is a big part of the warrior mindset. He also had training in more traditional sport psychology from Dr. Jay Brunza, especially on the narrow mental focus, one focal point per swing, and pre-shot routine, as well as confidence. Tiger knows about the subconscious mind, he told a friend of mine that his focus was "100% on the target picture, I've learned to trust the power of my subconscious mind to handle my golf swing".

 

My view is that Tiger was possibly the most confident golfer to ever play the game and it was not by accident. Jack a close second.

[FourTops]

Look at the video of Tiger at 2 years old on Merv Griffin. Combine that with his Dad's mental training and...well...that's Tiger.

[Jim Waldron]

Tiger also learned basic Buddhist meditation from his Mom at an early age.

 

Meditation is one of the fastest ways to start to master MA.

 

In the Vipassana Buddhist tradition, you start by noticing your breath and seeing if you can anchor your mind to breath without losing that focus on the breath. Losing is very easy to do when we identify with passing thoughts, ie it starts the whole day-dreaming cycle.

 

Waking up in MA is about noticing when you have "lost" your focus on the breath, and then instantly restoring your focus to the breath. For newbies that breath focus will last all of three to ten seconds, and then you lose yourself in the "thought stream", notice that it happened, and then re-focus on the breath.

 

For golf, you simply decide before you walk up to the ball where your mind will be focused and then see if you can keep that focus for the entire 1.5 second duration of the golf swing.

[Nard_S]

Great stuff Jim.

[Millbrook]

Pinched from another thread but relevant here;

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=11&v=esq3DV7zqI0

[jbw749]

New swing thoughts or talking to body parts work because there is no expectation they will or wont. Which frees up the Subconscious for a short period of time.

Now that you think you may have figured it out, you will build an expectation that it should work next time. That results in fearing it won't and that results in a flinch or tension overriding the SC.

 

Most golf instructors are good at finding a swing thought that will work for their student for a week or 2 until it doesn't work anymore and they need to come back.

[Tanner25]

Tiger also learned basic Buddhist meditation from his Mom at an early age.

 

Meditation is one of the fastest ways to start to master MA.

 

In the Vipassana Buddhist tradition, you start by noticing your breath and seeing if you can anchor your mind to breath without losing that focus on the breath. Losing is very easy to do when we identify with passing thoughts, ie it starts the whole day-dreaming cycle.

 

Waking up in MA is about noticing when you have "lost" your focus on the breath, and then instantly restoring your focus to the breath. For newbies that breath focus will last all of three to ten seconds, and then you lose yourself in the "thought stream", notice that it happened, and then re-focus on the breath.

 

For golf, you simply decide before you walk up to the ball where your mind will be focused and then see if you can keep that focus for the entire 1.5 second duration of the golf swing.

 

Great insight to Tiger, thx. I have an interesting "thought" (lol). Is there negative MA? For example, on the backswing in particular - I start to think and become aware of the bad stuff in my swing - I say to myself, "oh, know my left arm is not straight or I've lifted the club in the back swing instead of turned". Perhaps, this is a WRX affliction. In hind set, this distraction can not be very productive and more likely it is harmful. If we're in agreement that the negative chatter is bad, what's the fix? Be more forward swing or target swing focused? Pick a target and keep that picture in mind or release the club on the forward swing? Thx, Tanner

[jbw749]

Great question Tanner. I'm interested to see if Jim thinks there's anything negative about MA too. To me it would be like asking if there's anything negative about world peace.

[Tanner25]

Pinched from another thread but relevant here;

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=11&v=esq3DV7zqI0

 

Good stuff Millbrook. It reinforces some points here on working on a swing feeling, not a swing fix.