Quick question- How many are using new OB and Lost Ball Local Rule E-5??

[Sawgrass]

Some questions are rhetorical in nature and merely serve to point out some arbitrariness. Which was SwissTrader's point to begin with.

His point, at least the one stated in his post #30, was that these efforts to re-write the rules is "silliness."

 

So, backing away for a moment, we have the historic complaint that stroke and distance takes too much time, and the new complaint that the time-saving nature of the subject of this thread, Local Rule E-5, is silly.

 

I see a problem here. And I'm nearsighted.

[rogolf]

Some questions are rhetorical in nature and merely serve to point out some arbitrariness. Which was SwissTrader's point to begin with.

The Rules of golf provide the Committee with the authority to establish a pace of play policy, which the Tour has done. The Rules of golf don't require that the Committee adhere to/follow their policy; that is entirely up to the Committee, ie, it's not a Rules of golf issue. Swisstrader consistently criticizes the Rules of golf, in this case for the Tour's failure to follow their own policy. Imo, he's pointing his mini-rants in the wrong direction.

[davep043]

Some questions are rhetorical in nature and merely serve to point out some arbitrariness. Which was SwissTrader's point to begin with.

The Rules of golf provide the Committee with the authority to establish a pace of play policy, which the Tour has done. The Rules of golf don't require that the Committee adhere to/follow their policy; that is entirely up to the Committee, ie, it's not a Rules of golf issue. Swisstrader consistently criticizes the Rules of golf, in this case for the Tour's failure to follow their own policy.

We will have the opportunity to criticize the PGA of America when their tournament comes around on the calendar. Similarly, we'll get the chance to criticize the Committee at the Masters, and then the USGA, and then the R&A, each for the tournament where they define and enforce the pace of play policies. For the moment, its the PGA Tour that should be on the hot seat. And really, not a bit of this has anything to do with Local Rule E-5, the original topic of this thread. Well, except for Sawgrass who points out a bit of the difficulty involved when anyone tries to change anything.

[Newby]

Exactly right. The committee says 40 seconds to hit a shot or 50 seconds if you're first to go. Read it for yourself and tell us why this rule is not enforced. Is it an optional rule in the rules of golf?

It is not a Rule. It may optionally be introduced as a Local Rule as a Pace of Play Policy. If they choose to have one, the words and conditions are entirely up to the committee. Further, as said earlier, how and if they enforce the policy is also a matter for the committee.

 

If you read this you will notice it uses the words 'may' and should'. It does not say 'must'.

 

https://www.randa.or...e-procedures/5g

[Sawgrass]

Exactly right. The committee says 40 seconds to hit a shot or 50 seconds if you're first to go. Read it for yourself and tell us why this rule is not enforced. Is it an optional rule in the rules of golf?

It is not a Rule. It may optionally be introduced as a Local Rule as a Pace of Play Policy. If they choose to have one, the words and conditions are entirely up to the committee. Further, as said earlier, how and if they enforce the policy is also a matter for the committee.

 

If you read this you will notice it uses the words 'may' and should'. It does not say 'must'.

 

https://www.randa.or...e-procedures/5g

That link didn't work for me.

 

I'm interested in reading it. As I read 5.6a, a player "must" not unreasonably delay play. What is "unreasonable" is of course subjective, even after reviewing 5.6a/1. So IMO things are generally not iron clad, though they are enforceable.

[Newby]

That link didn't work for me.

 

 

Try this and go to section 5G

 

https://www.randa.or...ttee-procedures

 

 

or the USGA equivalent.

 

http://www.usga.org/content/usga/home-page/rules/rules-2019/rules-of-golf/rules-and-interpretations.html#!ruletype=cp&section=rule&rulenum=5&subrulenum=7

[davep043]

Exactly right. The committee says 40 seconds to hit a shot or 50 seconds if you're first to go. Read it for yourself and tell us why this rule is not enforced. Is it an optional rule in the rules of golf?

It is not a Rule. It may optionally be introduced as a Local Rule as a Pace of Play Policy. If they choose to have one, the words and conditions are entirely up to the committee. Further, as said earlier, how and if they enforce the policy is also a matter for the committee.

 

If you read this you will notice it uses the words 'may' and should'. It does not say 'must'.

 

https://www.randa.or...e-procedures/5g

That link didn't work for me.

 

I'm interested in reading it. As I read 5.6a, a player "must" not unreasonably delay play. What is "unreasonable" is of course subjective, even after reviewing 5.6a/1. So IMO things are generally not iron clad, though they are enforceable.

He referenced Section 5G in Committee Procedures, which specifically assigns the responsibility for a Pace of Play policy to the Committee, as well as defining the specific items that such a policy should include. This section mentions that pace of play requirements are by there very nature somewhat variable, depending on the course, type of competition, number of entrants, and other factors. The policy has take into account the personnel available to enforce the policy.

[Sawgrass]

IMO “pace of play” and “delay of play” are separate, but related issues. Delay of play requires no extra effort to enforce, and there’s a must” involved.

[LeoLeo99]

IMO “pace of play” and “delay of play” are separate, but related issues. Delay of play requires no extra effort to enforce, and there’s a must” involved.

 

So, if you're just slow in general, that is a pace of play issue, but if you're sneaking off to the woods for something or other that is delay of play. Really splitting hairs here, huh?

[jlbos83]

Getting back to the original question! I don't expect many, if any of the courses I play to make, or post a decision on the local rule. I am not a huge fan, and if I really think I could be lost or OOB I will hit a provisional. But, when I get there and the ball is gone, I'll go ahead and use the local rule. The resulting score is likely to be pretty much right, with the two shot penalty, or over ESC anyway. I've always wanted to figuratively "punch" the one stroke penalty guys, that never made sense. One out, two back to the previous spot, and three to somewhere, hopefully in play. It's not that complicated!

[HitEmTrue]

Some questions are rhetorical in nature and merely serve to point out some arbitrariness. Which was SwissTrader's point to begin with.

His point, at least the one stated in his post #30, was that these efforts to re-write the rules is "silliness."

 

So, backing away for a moment, we have the historic complaint that stroke and distance takes too much time, and the new complaint that the time-saving nature of the subject of this thread, Local Rule E-5, is silly.

 

I see a problem here. And I'm nearsighted.

 

I does take more time to add two penalty strokes than one. More time could be saved if we could just toss down a ball anywhere we want, without considering where it might be lost or any reference points at all.

 

[HitEmTrue]

Getting back to the original question! I don't expect many, if any of the courses I play to make, or post a decision on the local rule. I am not a huge fan, and if I really think I could be lost or OOB I will hit a provisional. But, when I get there and the ball is gone, I'll go ahead and use the local rule. The resulting score is likely to be pretty much right, with the two shot penalty, or over ESC anyway. I've always wanted to figuratively "punch" the one stroke penalty guys, that never made sense. One out, two back to the previous spot, and three to somewhere, hopefully in play. It's not that complicated!

 

If you hit a provisional, you can’t invoke the local rule.

[jlbos83]

Of course not. I may have not been clear! If I didn't hit a provisional, and it is still gone (it can happen), then I will use the rule. I'm not a huge fan, but I don't think it is the end of the world.

[KevCarter]

Of course not. I may have not been clear! If I didn't hit a provisional, and it is still gone (it can happen), then I will use the rule. I'm not a huge fan, but I don't think it is the end of the world.

 

My problem with it, if I still played, is that you were always required to eventually get one in play, now you can hit one out and drop another in the fairway. To me it’s like taking a test... If you get a question wrong, you get to skip the next one, but still get credit for it. :-) I do think it will help pace, and take away a little stress.

[HitEmTrue]

Of course not. I may have not been clear! If I didn't hit a provisional, and it is still gone (it can happen), then I will use the rule. I'm not a huge fan, but I don't think it is the end of the world.

 

Ah...I see. Not a fan of the rule myself.

 

[jlbos83]

Turtleback, I agree, in principle. But once it's happened, ESC is looking likely, so as long as it is a casual round, I think the disaster is mitigated. Bedsides, the second one is always down the middle, right?

[davep043]

Of course not. I may have not been clear! If I didn't hit a provisional, and it is still gone (it can happen), then I will use the rule. I'm not a huge fan, but I don't think it is the end of the world.

 

My problem with it, if I still played, is that you were always required to eventually get one in play, now you can hit one out and drop another in the fairway. To me it's like taking a test... If you get a question wrong, you get to skip the next one, but still get credit for it. :-) I do think it will help pace, and take away a little stress.

I understand this viewpoint, and in general I agree. I will oppose the use of the Local Rule in any individual stroke play tournament at my club, for exactly that reason. For match play, or fourball stroke play, I don't believe that it will make a difference. However, for everyday play, I think its a reasonable compromise that can help the pace of play a little. Not a lot, but a little. I also think that scoring for handicap purposes will be nearly unaffected. Most people will run into the max score (ESC for us in the USGA system) most of the time if they're required to take two penalty strokes. Personally, I'll continue to hit a provisional whenever I think my ball could be lost, as I expect my second effort will end up in a better position than any potential Relief Area.

[KevCarter]

Turtleback, I agree, in principle. But once it's happened, ESC is looking likely, so as long as it is a casual round, I think the disaster is mitigated. Bedsides, the second one is always down the middle, right?

 

That was just one side of my opinion. These days pace seems more important than the integrity of the game, so I will be implementing, and promoting the local rule at Turtleback. I think my customers will appreciate it...

[Sawgrass]

Turtleback, I agree, in principle. But once it's happened, ESC is looking likely, so as long as it is a casual round, I think the disaster is mitigated. Bedsides, the second one is always down the middle, right?

As a complete aside, calling my friend Kevin Carter “Turtleback” would be like calling me “Golf ball case.”

 

But I have to admit I like it!

[sui generis]

Getting back to the original question! I don't expect many, if any of the courses I play to make, or post a decision on the local rule. I am not a huge fan, and if I really think I could be lost or OOB I will hit a provisional. But, when I get there and the ball is gone, I'll go ahead and use the local rule. The resulting score is likely to be pretty much right, with the two shot penalty, or over ESC anyway. I've always wanted to figuratively "punch" the one stroke penalty guys, that never made sense. One out, two back to the previous spot, and three to somewhere, hopefully in play. It's not that complicated!

 

If you hit a provisional, you can't invoke the local rule.

 

It's my opinion that a player cannot E-5 if they have a provisional in play. Should they hit a provisional and subsequently not find it or determine that i'ts OB, the E-5 is appropriate for the provisional.

[KevCarter]

Of course not. I may have not been clear! If I didn't hit a provisional, and it is still gone (it can happen), then I will use the rule. I'm not a huge fan, but I don't think it is the end of the world.

 

My problem with it, if I still played, is that you were always required to eventually get one in play, now you can hit one out and drop another in the fairway. To me it's like taking a test... If you get a question wrong, you get to skip the next one, but still get credit for it. :-) I do think it will help pace, and take away a little stress.

I understand this viewpoint, and in general I agree. I will oppose the use of the Local Rule in any individual stroke play tournament at my club, for exactly that reason. For match play, or fourball stroke play, I don't believe that it will make a difference. However, for everyday play, I think its a reasonable compromise that can help the pace of play a little. Not a lot, but a little. I also think that scoring for handicap purposes will be nearly unaffected. Most people will run into the max score (ESC for us in the USGA system) most of the time if they're required to take two penalty strokes. Personally, I'll continue to hit a provisional whenever I think my ball could be lost, as I expect my second effort will end up in a better position than any potential Relief Area.

 

I agree with your points, however, I'll keep it in force for club events. Not using it would be asking for trouble, in my opinion. As has become painfully obvious reading the forum, people have no interest in understanding the rules. Making them remember a different rule for a couple of events would be like setting a trap for them.

 

You know I respect your opinion, and not saying you're wrong in the least. I know my players, and want to keep it simple. I may just be lazy. :-)

[KevCarter]

Turtleback, I agree, in principle. But once it's happened, ESC is looking likely, so as long as it is a casual round, I think the disaster is mitigated. Bedsides, the second one is always down the middle, right?

As a complete aside, calling my friend Kevin Carter “Turtleback” would be like calling me “Golf ball case.”

 

But I have to admit I like it!

 

You know i would never fit into one of those shells! :-)

[Sawgrass]

Of course not. I may have not been clear! If I didn't hit a provisional, and it is still gone (it can happen), then I will use the rule. I'm not a huge fan, but I don't think it is the end of the world.

 

My problem with it, if I still played, is that you were always required to eventually get one in play, now you can hit one out and drop another in the fairway. To me it's like taking a test... If you get a question wrong, you get to skip the next one, but still get credit for it. :-) I do think it will help pace, and take away a little stress.

I understand this viewpoint, and in general I agree. I will oppose the use of the Local Rule in any individual stroke play tournament at my club, for exactly that reason. For match play, or fourball stroke play, I don't believe that it will make a difference. However, for everyday play, I think its a reasonable compromise that can help the pace of play a little. Not a lot, but a little. I also think that scoring for handicap purposes will be nearly unaffected. Most people will run into the max score (ESC for us in the USGA system) most of the time if they're required to take two penalty strokes. Personally, I'll continue to hit a provisional whenever I think my ball could be lost, as I expect my second effort will end up in a better position than any potential Relief Area.

It occurs to me that the right to hit a provisional ball, something we all accept, in itself provides an occasionally “unfair” advantage, such as when you hit a good provisional and don’t bother to search for your original (but would have searched if the provisional was also poor). This new LR provides a different kind of occasional “unfair” advantage in a sense, as you avoid hitting two consecutive balls OB. In a way, it’s more of an extension of the less-impressive provisional advantage than it is a complete break from the past.

[jlbos83]

The local rule is certainly a compromise.

 

If we all cared about slow play as much as we claim, it would not exist.

[HitEmTrue]

Getting back to the original question! I don't expect many, if any of the courses I play to make, or post a decision on the local rule. I am not a huge fan, and if I really think I could be lost or OOB I will hit a provisional. But, when I get there and the ball is gone, I'll go ahead and use the local rule. The resulting score is likely to be pretty much right, with the two shot penalty, or over ESC anyway. I've always wanted to figuratively "punch" the one stroke penalty guys, that never made sense. One out, two back to the previous spot, and three to somewhere, hopefully in play. It's not that complicated!

 

If you hit a provisional, you can't invoke the local rule.

 

It's my opinion that a player cannot E-5 if they have a provisional in play. Should they hit a provisional and subsequently not find it or determine that i'ts OB, the E-5 is appropriate for the provisional.

 

I misread him...didn't realize he was talking about a lost provisional.

[Roadking2003]

All of the courses I play use the new local rule. When our group travels, we have our own committee and will always choose to use this local rule and several others.

[rogolf]

The local rule is certainly a compromise.

 

If we all cared about slow play as much as we claim, it would not exist.

Perhaps it's case of "lots of whiners, not enough doers"?

[Swisstrader98]

The local rule is certainly a compromise.

 

If we all cared about slow play as much as we claim, it would not exist.

 

I would agree.

 

Most people think it’s the “other” guy not them. I play with a guy who’s been told by about 100 ppl including the pro at the course that he’s the slowest guy out there and need to speed play. He will hysterically call out other ppl for slow play and in complete denial that he’s the problem. Also knows that he will never get penalized because if they don’t penalize on tour, then he’s pretty safe at his home course.

[jlbos83]

I try to make sure the group I am with is keeping up, though sometimes it is difficult to pull them along. I don't like slow play, or especially excessive waiting. On the other hand, when I get to the 16th or 17th hole, I almost never want to go home....

[Roadking2003]

I try to make sure the group I am with is keeping up, though sometimes it is difficult to pull them along. I don't like slow play, or especially excessive waiting. On the other hand, when I get to the 16th or 17th hole, I almost never want to go home....

 

It's interesting how we hate to take a long time to play golf, then sit around a talk in the clubhouse afterwards.