In the market for a new driver...difference between 16 and 17 M2 vs M4, M6....others?

[Titleist_PT23]

> @Valtiel said:

> From a tech standpoint, each year the models became slightly more forgiving than their predecessors and the CG moved up. The 2016 M1 430 has the lowest CG but was the least forgiving. The M4 in contrast was by far the most forgiving and highest CG of the bunch with the M6 assumedely improving upon both (more forgiveness and lower CG based upon the design).

>

> Aside from that you have each piece of marketing tech. 2017 highlighted the forgiveness increase, 2018 highlighted Twist Face for better off center hit dispersion, and 2019 has the Speed Injected faces. Each year the cosmetics changed noticeably as well.

>

> The 2016 M2 was held in such high regard due to being an effective blend of low CG and good forgiveness, plus the Tiger effect since he chose that model over the 2017 offerings.

I've seen your comments about the progression of this line before. Based on the increase in forgiveness and CG movement, should the 2016 M2 be spinning less all else equal? There seems to be a lot of comments that the newer versions are spinning less, and for any one person this may be true (loft/shaft combo, overall delivery and strike). But does it go against the how the heads have been designed?

[Valtiel]

> @agolf1 said:

> > @Valtiel said:

> > From a tech standpoint, each year the models became slightly more forgiving than their predecessors and the CG moved up. The 2016 M1 430 has the lowest CG but was the least forgiving. The M4 in contrast was by far the most forgiving and highest CG of the bunch with the M6 assumedely improving upon both (more forgiveness and lower CG based upon the design).

> >

> > Aside from that you have each piece of marketing tech. 2017 highlighted the forgiveness increase, 2018 highlighted Twist Face for better off center hit dispersion, and 2019 has the Speed Injected faces. Each year the cosmetics changed noticeably as well.

> >

> > The 2016 M2 was held in such high regard due to being an effective blend of low CG and good forgiveness, plus the Tiger effect since he chose that model over the 2017 offerings.

> I've seen your comments about the progression of this line before. Based on the increase in forgiveness and CG movement, should the 2016 M2 be spinning less all else equal? There seems to be a lot of comments that the newer versions are spinning less, and for any one person this may be true (loft/shaft combo, overall delivery and strike). But does it go against the how the heads have been designed?

 

That is a tricky question due to the somewhat interactive nature of CG location and MOI (wall of text ahead). I've been trying to figure out how to make a really easy to digest post about this based on the knowledge i've gained on the subject so maybe i'll try that out a bit here.

 

As Howard Jones here has stated many times, vertical gear effects (imparted on high and low strikes) are the biggest determining factor of spin, and MOI and CG location both impact how much and when those effects are imparted respectively. As you increase MOI, you decrease all gear effects, both vertical (high and low strikes) and horizontal (heel and toe strikes). This means that your AVERAGE spin will generally come down with a higher MOI club as the spin increasing vertical gear effects of lower strikes is reduced. BUT, you've also decreased the amount of spin *reduction* on higher strikes, so its basically acting like an audio compressor; it is raising your floor but also lowering your ceiling. Very low MOI drivers like smaller models from the past and also the more recent SLDR/M1 430 have greater spin reduction capabilities, but also greater spin *increasing* capabilities based on high and low strikes respectively. CG location can then simply be seen as the point where the low and high strikes are separated. A higher CG means more real estate on the face for low strikes (not good for low spin) with the opposite being true for lower CG. The problem is, lower CG is harder to manufacture. You need weight in certain places to maintain the structural integrity of the driver within what most golfers consider to be pleasing to look at. Obviously radical designs have been attempted in the past with sunken in crowns to lower CG but golfers tend to be pretty conservative with aesthetics and they never stuck around.

 

So what does all this mean with the M-series models? Well the 2016 M2 existed in a nice little sweet spot where the CG was pretty low and the MOI was fairly high. It was basically a better Titleist driver in that the forgiveness was the same but spin was lower. As you move weight back it also moves up, following the contours of the club's sole. This raises CG (bad for spin reduction) but also raises MOI (good for low strike spin reduction). For most intents and purposes, these pretty much cancel each other out and what you're left with is simply more heel/toe forgiveness, which is a good thing. If struck properly (high on the face), the 2016 M2 is likely capable of lower spin than most of the other M-series drivers, excluding the 2016 M1 430 (capable of the lowest spin) and the 2016 M1 460 in the "Low" setting. Lower MOI however means that they will also be capable of higher spin if struck improperly. So you can see how it is always a trade off. To sum up overall, the 2016 M2 can be lower spin, but on average with the imperfect strikes of a human being, the newer, higher MOI/more forgiving models will be lower spin on *average*.

 

MGS has not yet released their 2019 Driver CG location report so I don't know how the M5 and M6 stack up to either previous M-series drivers or the rest of the field, but based on the trend and the physical design of the drivers, I can make a few guesses. The M6 is likely a lower CG/high MOI version of the M4 designed to compete more with the G400 MAX, that is pretty clear based on the shape of the sole (pics below) and with how high the M4's CG was, which needed to come down for a replacement to be considered an "improvement". I suspect similar with the M5, although with the rear weight track location causing that CG to creep back up again due to its placement. You can see below with the straight line going from the weight location to the face what the difference is.

 

 

 

 

[tanker44]

> @Z1ggy16 said:

> 2016 M2 is starting to maybe have a cult following, prices are still relatively high on eBay as ppl start to realize it's possible a GOAT driver. Maybe not as forgiving as say G410 or whatever, but it's just perfectly balanced, absolutely maxed out COR and with a little hot melt or lead tape, sounds and feels great.

>

> It's so good in fact I'm highly considering buying one again if I can't get this Epic SZ to flight a little better. I had the M2 paired with a Speeder Evo II 661 and it was an absolute beast. I don't even know why I got rid of it.. Probably my Ho ways.

>

> Issue is, you're getting a fitting and they won't be handing you a 2016 M2. The new M5/M6 are very different than M2 is. They spin much less and I'm going to guess also weigh a little more, too (in order to up MOI because...That's all the rage). If you get fit into an M5 at 10.5* I'd be willing to bet a 10.5* M2 will spin too much and you may not fit into that same shaft either.

>

> If you're even considering going used, just cancel the fitting because it's really not a guarantee that a different head will work with whatever shaft they fit you with. I need to use a CB'ed shaft usually, but with lighter heads like M2, that would make the SW too light and I'd probably struggle.

 

I did the fitting with M2 vs M3/M4/M5/M6. I had my gamer set up in the 10.5* M2 w/ the Fuji Pro 53. The launch and spin were perfect. I posted earlier. In order to get the same numbers he had to configure the weights a dozen times in the M5, change loft to 8* from 10.5* and put a 80g shaft in it. After an hour none of the new(er) TM's could match the M2 I pulled out of retirement. The M2 10.5* head weighs 194g. I bought another 2016 M2 9.5* that also weighed in at 194 that I am going to hot melt a few extra grams. Fitting was all trackman. Fitter was a TM guy and said i'd hit the new one 20yds by the M2 before the fitting. Nope. I'm done with the low spinners. I hit a Srixon 745 in 2014ish that was also a beast.

[enfuego]

> @Valtiel said:

> > @agolf1 said:

> > > @Valtiel said:

> > > From a tech standpoint, each year the models became slightly more forgiving than their predecessors and the CG moved up. The 2016 M1 430 has the lowest CG but was the least forgiving. The M4 in contrast was by far the most forgiving and highest CG of the bunch with the M6 assumedely improving upon both (more forgiveness and lower CG based upon the design).

> > >

> > > Aside from that you have each piece of marketing tech. 2017 highlighted the forgiveness increase, 2018 highlighted Twist Face for better off center hit dispersion, and 2019 has the Speed Injected faces. Each year the cosmetics changed noticeably as well.

> > >

> > > The 2016 M2 was held in such high regard due to being an effective blend of low CG and good forgiveness, plus the Tiger effect since he chose that model over the 2017 offerings.

> > I've seen your comments about the progression of this line before. Based on the increase in forgiveness and CG movement, should the 2016 M2 be spinning less all else equal? There seems to be a lot of comments that the newer versions are spinning less, and for any one person this may be true (loft/shaft combo, overall delivery and strike). But does it go against the how the heads have been designed?

>

> That is a tricky question due to the somewhat interactive nature of CG location and MOI (wall of text ahead). I've been trying to figure out how to make a really easy to digest post about this based on the knowledge i've gained on the subject so maybe i'll try that out a bit here.

>

> As Howard Jones here has stated many times, vertical gear effects (imparted on high and low strikes) are the biggest determining factor of spin, and MOI and CG location both impact how much and when those effects are imparted respectively. As you increase MOI, you decrease all gear effects, both vertical (high and low strikes) and horizontal (heel and toe strikes). This means that your AVERAGE spin will generally come down with a higher MOI club as the spin increasing vertical gear effects of lower strikes is reduced. BUT, you've also decreased the amount of spin *reduction* on higher strikes, so its basically acting like an audio compressor; it is raising your floor but also lowering your ceiling. Very low MOI drivers like smaller models from the past and also the more recent SLDR/M1 430 have greater spin reduction capabilities, but also greater spin *increasing* capabilities based on high and low strikes respectively. CG location can then simply be seen as the point where the low and high strikes are separated. A higher CG means more real estate on the face for low strikes (not good for low spin) with the opposite being true for lower CG. The problem is, lower CG is harder to manufacture. You need weight in certain places to maintain the structural integrity of the driver within what most golfers consider to be pleasing to look at. Obviously radical designs have been attempted in the past with sunken in crowns to lower CG but golfers tend to be pretty conservative with aesthetics and they never stuck around.

>

> So what does all this mean with the M-series models? Well the 2016 M2 existed in a nice little sweet spot where the CG was pretty low and the MOI was fairly high. It was basically a better Titleist driver in that the forgiveness was the same but spin was lower. As you move weight back it also moves up, following the contours of the club's sole. This raises CG (bad for spin reduction) but also raises MOI (good for low strike spin reduction). For most intents and purposes, these pretty much cancel each other out and what you're left with is simply more heel/toe forgiveness, which is a good thing. If struck properly (high on the face), the 2016 M2 is likely capable of lower spin than most of the other M-series drivers, excluding the 2016 M1 430 (capable of the lowest spin) and the 2016 M1 460 in the "Low" setting. Lower MOI however means that they will also be capable of higher spin if struck improperly. So you can see how it is always a trade off. To sum up overall, the 2016 M2 can be lower spin, but on average with the imperfect strikes of a human being, the newer, higher MOI/more forgiving models will be lower spin on *average*.

>

> **** has not yet released their 2019 Driver CG location report so I don't know how the M5 and M6 stack up to either previous M-series drivers or the rest of the field, but based on the trend and the physical design of the drivers, I can make a few guesses. The M6 is likely a lower CG/high MOI version of the M4 designed to compete more with the G400 MAX, that is pretty clear based on the shape of the sole (pics below) and with how high the M4's CG was, which needed to come down for a replacement to be considered an "improvement". I suspect similar with the M5, although with the rear weight track location causing that CG to creep back up again due to its placement. You can see below with the straight line going from the weight location to the face what the difference is.

>

>

>

>

>

>

 

I feel like the m6 is trying to be the f9 speedback

[Valtiel]

> @enfuego said:

> > @Valtiel said:

> > > @agolf1 said:

> > > > @Valtiel said:

> > > > From a tech standpoint, each year the models became slightly more forgiving than their predecessors and the CG moved up. The 2016 M1 430 has the lowest CG but was the least forgiving. The M4 in contrast was by far the most forgiving and highest CG of the bunch with the M6 assumedely improving upon both (more forgiveness and lower CG based upon the design).

> > > >

> > > > Aside from that you have each piece of marketing tech. 2017 highlighted the forgiveness increase, 2018 highlighted Twist Face for better off center hit dispersion, and 2019 has the Speed Injected faces. Each year the cosmetics changed noticeably as well.

> > > >

> > > > The 2016 M2 was held in such high regard due to being an effective blend of low CG and good forgiveness, plus the Tiger effect since he chose that model over the 2017 offerings.

> > > I've seen your comments about the progression of this line before. Based on the increase in forgiveness and CG movement, should the 2016 M2 be spinning less all else equal? There seems to be a lot of comments that the newer versions are spinning less, and for any one person this may be true (loft/shaft combo, overall delivery and strike). But does it go against the how the heads have been designed?

> >

> > That is a tricky question due to the somewhat interactive nature of CG location and MOI (wall of text ahead). I've been trying to figure out how to make a really easy to digest post about this based on the knowledge i've gained on the subject so maybe i'll try that out a bit here.

> >

> > As Howard Jones here has stated many times, vertical gear effects (imparted on high and low strikes) are the biggest determining factor of spin, and MOI and CG location both impact how much and when those effects are imparted respectively. As you increase MOI, you decrease all gear effects, both vertical (high and low strikes) and horizontal (heel and toe strikes). This means that your AVERAGE spin will generally come down with a higher MOI club as the spin increasing vertical gear effects of lower strikes is reduced. BUT, you've also decreased the amount of spin *reduction* on higher strikes, so its basically acting like an audio compressor; it is raising your floor but also lowering your ceiling. Very low MOI drivers like smaller models from the past and also the more recent SLDR/M1 430 have greater spin reduction capabilities, but also greater spin *increasing* capabilities based on high and low strikes respectively. CG location can then simply be seen as the point where the low and high strikes are separated. A higher CG means more real estate on the face for low strikes (not good for low spin) with the opposite being true for lower CG. The problem is, lower CG is harder to manufacture. You need weight in certain places to maintain the structural integrity of the driver within what most golfers consider to be pleasing to look at. Obviously radical designs have been attempted in the past with sunken in crowns to lower CG but golfers tend to be pretty conservative with aesthetics and they never stuck around.

> >

> > So what does all this mean with the M-series models? Well the 2016 M2 existed in a nice little sweet spot where the CG was pretty low and the MOI was fairly high. It was basically a better Titleist driver in that the forgiveness was the same but spin was lower. As you move weight back it also moves up, following the contours of the club's sole. This raises CG (bad for spin reduction) but also raises MOI (good for low strike spin reduction). For most intents and purposes, these pretty much cancel each other out and what you're left with is simply more heel/toe forgiveness, which is a good thing. If struck properly (high on the face), the 2016 M2 is likely capable of lower spin than most of the other M-series drivers, excluding the 2016 M1 430 (capable of the lowest spin) and the 2016 M1 460 in the "Low" setting. Lower MOI however means that they will also be capable of higher spin if struck improperly. So you can see how it is always a trade off. To sum up overall, the 2016 M2 can be lower spin, but on average with the imperfect strikes of a human being, the newer, higher MOI/more forgiving models will be lower spin on *average*.

> >

> > **** has not yet released their 2019 Driver CG location report so I don't know how the M5 and M6 stack up to either previous M-series drivers or the rest of the field, but based on the trend and the physical design of the drivers, I can make a few guesses. The M6 is likely a lower CG/high MOI version of the M4 designed to compete more with the G400 MAX, that is pretty clear based on the shape of the sole (pics below) and with how high the M4's CG was, which needed to come down for a replacement to be considered an "improvement". I suspect similar with the M5, although with the rear weight track location causing that CG to creep back up again due to its placement. You can see below with the straight line going from the weight location to the face what the difference is.

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

>

> I feel like the m6 is trying to be the f9 speedback

 

That would imply that the Speedback was the first driver to use this kind of design, which it wasn't. The M6 is just trying to keep the CG as low as possible and this is one of the most logical ways to do it.

[thlongball]

Love the 16 M2 head, it’s legendary, especially when you swap the weight and get it into the 200 gram range, JUST SO SOLID. I’ve now built 6 16 M2 driver setups for buddies and customers and they never come back. They are all still gaming them and many do not like TM lol.

[Meerkat213]

> @thlongball said:

> Love the 16 M2 head, it’s legendary, especially when you swap the weight and get it into the 200 gram range, JUST SO SOLID. I’ve now built 6 16 M2 driver setups for buddies and customers and they never come back. They are all still gaming them and many do not like TM lol.

 

I’m not too familiar with changing weights in drivers. I play the 2016 M2 and recently put in a shaft that plays about .75 inches shorter than the stock Fuji so it now plays 44.75. I didn’t change the weight in the head. What would you recommend and where would I get the weight? Do I need a special too the change the weight?

 

 

[thlongball]

 

> I’m not too familiar with changing weights in drivers. I play the 2016 M2 and recently put in a shaft that plays about .75 inches shorter than the stock Fuji so it now plays 44.75. I didn’t change the weight in the head. What would you recommend and where would I get the weight? Do I need a special too the change the weight?

>

 

I get the weights off EBay but you can also source them from Billy Bobs Golf. If your head still has the factory weight, which usually weighs 0-1 gram IME, you might have to apply a”little,” heat to get it to release. You’ll need a special torx wrench which some of the weight vendors also sell or you can buy the bit from Home Depot. Most retail heads I see weigh 192-194gram range.

 

[FredCouplesFan]

> @thlongball said:

>

> > I’m not too familiar with changing weights in drivers. I play the 2016 M2 and recently put in a shaft that plays about .75 inches shorter than the stock Fuji so it now plays 44.75. I didn’t change the weight in the head. What would you recommend and where would I get the weight? Do I need a special too the change the weight?

> >

>

> I get the weights off EBay but you can also source them from Billy Bobs Golf. If your head still has the factory weight, which usually weighs 0-1 gram IME, you might have to apply a”little,” heat to get it to release. You’ll need a special torx wrench which some of the weight vendors also sell or you can buy the bit from Home Depot. Most retail heads I see weigh 192-194gram range.

>

 

Torx T-20 security bit. Stock weight has some blue loctite on it, I don't think it is really necessary to put any on the new weight.

[ALIF]

RBZ Tour 9 set @ 10.5 and 45 inches length and hotmelted. Still a bomber. Don’t know if M2 could beat it.

[Pritam]

I missed the 2016 M2 initially cause I never thought Taylormade would make another bomber like the RBZ Stage2. I learned my lesson and found a like new one online and will never let it go. It is easy to hit long and straight. I think it will be one of the greatest drivers of all time.

[BlackDots]

On 5/23/2019 at 11:43 AM, Whit1969 said:

> @"North Butte" said:

> > @Whit1969 said:

> > Here are some photos for you to look at and compare. The 2017 version has more weight taken out and moved farther back for a little more MOI, and shallower speed pocket and it a little more toe up lie angle. The 2016 M2 seems to be a tad bit shorter front to back as well. The 2016 also has a larger white border on the top line and more of a grey composite crown whereas the 2017 has a dark grey or almost black composite crown with a narrower white border on the top line. Soles are completely different as you can see. The 2017 is the one with the neon green color. For my money the 2016 is the GOAT TM driver, better feel, sound, and looks. Oh and it's LOOOONG!!

> >

> > 2016 on the left, 2017 on the right

> >

> >

> >

> >

>

> Thanks for the photos. The 2017 M2 is the one I always thought of as "the M2 driver". I don't really recognize the appearance of the 2016 one.

>

> I'd ignored Tayormade drivers ever since the low-and-forward CG thing started with the SLDR. Then it seemed like overnight everybody at my club bought an M2 (2017 version). All the way from hacks like me to pretty good players, young guys, old guys, whatever. And a lot of them seem to have genuinely gained distance over whatever Ping or Nike or older TM driver they'd been using.

>

> By time time I got around to buying I ended up with the then-new M4 and sure enough I gained distance too (compared to a Ping G). Who knows, if I'd have bought a 2016 M2 instead I might be driving the green on Par 4's...OK, maybe just reaching some Par 5's in two... 😉

 

I have had both and currently still game the 2016 M2 and have not found anything better. The 2017 is a great driver as well, but the issue I had with it was that it wanted to go left too easily on me. I think that the lie angle was a little more upright as well as the toe set up higher at address. I do not have this problem with the 2016 M2. I tried the M4 but I did not care for the feel of the driver at all. Like one poster has mentioned, I have a back up head of the 2016 M2 that will be my next new driver should something happen to my current one. My advice is if you have a fitting scheduled see if you can pick up a 2016-17 M2 head on the cheap just to test it out with different shafts during your fitting. If you like either one and it performs for you, then you can always go in pick one up a really good condition. With all the available shafts so easily to interchange, either one of these can perform with any of the new drivers out there now. I just perfer the look, feel, and sound of the 2016 M2, not to mention the performance.

 

**GOAT!!!!!!!!!!!!**

 

 

I just ordered this club from golf Avenue based solely on your post.....  wish me luck!