The Open...No Bomb & Gouge …..

BiggErn · July 22, 2019

> @mahonie said:

> > @NoodleSalad said:

> > Why do people say this kind of golf is natural? Sky ran a segment on architect Martin Ebert, mentioning his renovations to the course. They showed a gigantic earth mover forming artificial mounds somewhere on one of his redesigned holes. Not natural, sorry! Then there's all the internal OB which is just garbage and not natural at all.

> Sky also ran a segment during one of the PGA Tour events last year...can’t remember which one, they all seem to be one big tournament to me...where they looked at one hole where Justin Thomas hit drives on 2 consecutive days that finished 290 yards apart...one straight left, one straight right (no wind to speak of) and he still made par 4. The commentators called it miraculous...not really, he had great lies on both occasions even though he was so far offline and a massive green to aim at. That’s not golf. Golf is supposed to test all facets of the game...not just give rewards for length off the tee. The PGA Tour has sold its soul to the devil of distance and has become a complete borefest as a result.

>

lol. I recall Spieth playing from the driving range one year at the British Open.....and won.

Ashley Schaeffer · July 22, 2019

> @mahonie said:

> > @farmer said:

> > > @mahonie said:

> > > > @farmer said:

> > > > > @mahonie said:

> > > > > > @farmer said:

> > > > > > > @2bGood said:

> > > > > > > > @farmer said:

> > > > > > > > I'm probably in the minority, but I would not enjoy playing a course that beats me up every time I play. If RP had really severe greens, it would be nearly unplayable for just-a-guy type players.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > RP is seriously tough. I played it last fall and shot 93 (after ESC!!!) off a 4 handicap. The wind was howling and missing fairways or green was VERY costly to your score as it often resulted in a lost ball as we did not have spotters.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > I would love to play it again in more friendly weather and see if I could break 80, but on that day the course was way more challenge than I had game.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Now that is tough, which makes my point. I would need to play forward tees, but even from that length, I just can't see the fun.

> > > > >

> > > > > I don’t get this thing about forward tees. Typically in the UK you have 2 sets of tees for men (daily play and competition tees) and a set of ladies tees. Some courses may have junior tees. Unless you’re playing in a competition, you play off the daily play tees.

> > > > >

> > > > > The trick of good course design is to make the course playable without having to resort to several tees. Each hole should be a challenge but should also reward good shots...Royal Portrush seems to be typical of links golf in that it generally satisfies these criteria. The big variable is the weather and particularly the wind where the luck of the draw may play a massive part but that has always been a part of golf.

> > > >

> > > > Get old and you will understand about forward tees.

> > > Big 50 for me next year...I play with guys in their 70s who max out at 150 yards and teenagers who smash irons past my driver...we all play the same course off the same tees and it’s handicap that lets us all compete with each other. My point is, if a course is properly designed, you will be rewarded for good shots and punished for bad. Courses that punish you for not being long enough and require different sets of tees to compensate are poorly designed.

> > >

> >

> > 50 is not even in the conversation about old, unless you're 22. A course cannot be designed that plays the same for a guy who drives 200 vs a guy who drives it 250 without the use of different tees. If you don't believe me, play your approach club off the tee, then play your driving club for your next shot. To topic, there was a lot of gouging today.

> If the guy driving it 250 is not straight, the guy hitting it 200 but straight wins every time on a well-designed course...just saying.

>

> My home course is 6,100 off the tips, par 71...course record is 65. Yet the course is enjoyable for scratch players and 28 handicappers alike...all playing off the same tees. If you’re not straight your dead...if you’re straight and long you can score well.

>

Interesting. So, do you hit your 200 club or your 250 club straighter? 200 club, right?

So, I trust you must never hit a 250 club on that perfectly designed course, right?

The only reason to ever, ever, hit the less accurate club, that a 200 yard club would beat “every time” on that perfectly designed course would be to, what? Try to create a distance advantage or something? Nah, because 200 wins every time if the design is good. 250 is less accurate, so if the design is good, it’s worse. You must save a fortune on drivers and woods!

BiggErn · July 22, 2019

> @mahonie said:

> > @farmer said:

> > > @mahonie said:

> > > > @farmer said:

> > > > > @2bGood said:

> > > > > > @farmer said:

> > > > > > I'm probably in the minority, but I would not enjoy playing a course that beats me up every time I play. If RP had really severe greens, it would be nearly unplayable for just-a-guy type players.

> > > > >

> > > > > RP is seriously tough. I played it last fall and shot 93 (after ESC!!!) off a 4 handicap. The wind was howling and missing fairways or green was VERY costly to your score as it often resulted in a lost ball as we did not have spotters.

> > > > >

> > > > > I would love to play it again in more friendly weather and see if I could break 80, but on that day the course was way more challenge than I had game.

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > Now that is tough, which makes my point. I would need to play forward tees, but even from that length, I just can't see the fun.

> > >

> > > I don’t get this thing about forward tees. Typically in the UK you have 2 sets of tees for men (daily play and competition tees) and a set of ladies tees. Some courses may have junior tees. Unless you’re playing in a competition, you play off the daily play tees.

> > >

> > > The trick of good course design is to make the course playable without having to resort to several tees. Each hole should be a challenge but should also reward good shots...Royal Portrush seems to be typical of links golf in that it generally satisfies these criteria. The big variable is the weather and particularly the wind where the luck of the draw may play a massive part but that has always been a part of golf.

> >

> > Get old and you will understand about forward tees.

> Big 50 for me next year...I play with guys in their 70s who max out at 150 yards and teenagers who smash irons past my driver...we all play the same course off the same tees and it’s handicap that lets us all compete with each other. My point is, if a course is properly designed, you will be rewarded for good shots and punished for bad. Courses that punish you for not being long enough and require different sets of tees to compensate are poorly designed.

>

What person that maxes out at 150 would enjoy playing a 450 yard par 4? How do they play 200+ yard par 3s? Having multiple sets of tees to accommodate for various handicaps and distances makes complete sense.

Darth Putter · July 22, 2019

> @BiggErn said:

> > @mahonie said:

> > > @NoodleSalad said:

> > > Why do people say this kind of golf is natural? Sky ran a segment on architect Martin Ebert, mentioning his renovations to the course. They showed a gigantic earth mover forming artificial mounds somewhere on one of his redesigned holes. Not natural, sorry! Then there's all the internal OB which is just garbage and not natural at all.

> > Sky also ran a segment during one of the PGA Tour events last year...can’t remember which one, they all seem to be one big tournament to me...where they looked at one hole where Justin Thomas hit drives on 2 consecutive days that finished 290 yards apart...one straight left, one straight right (no wind to speak of) and he still made par 4. The commentators called it miraculous...not really, he had great lies on both occasions even though he was so far offline and a massive green to aim at. That’s not golf. Golf is supposed to test all facets of the game...not just give rewards for length off the tee. The PGA Tour has sold its soul to the devil of distance and has become a complete borefest as a result.

> >

>

> lol. I recall Spieth playing from the driving range one year at the British Open.....and won.

Forty years ago Seve won hitting out of a parking lot. He hit one fairway in his final round at Lytham.

RickK · July 22, 2019

> @"Darth Putter" said:

>

> Forty years ago Seve won hitting out of a parking lot. He hit one fairway in his final round at Lytham.

Seve...now there was a guy who could hit it from just about anywhere. Probably the first non-American player who really impressed me and that I loved to watch play.

BiggErn · July 22, 2019

> @"Darth Putter" said:

> > @BiggErn said:

> > > @mahonie said:

> > > > @NoodleSalad said:

> > > > Why do people say this kind of golf is natural? Sky ran a segment on architect Martin Ebert, mentioning his renovations to the course. They showed a gigantic earth mover forming artificial mounds somewhere on one of his redesigned holes. Not natural, sorry! Then there's all the internal OB which is just garbage and not natural at all.

> > > Sky also ran a segment during one of the PGA Tour events last year...can’t remember which one, they all seem to be one big tournament to me...where they looked at one hole where Justin Thomas hit drives on 2 consecutive days that finished 290 yards apart...one straight left, one straight right (no wind to speak of) and he still made par 4. The commentators called it miraculous...not really, he had great lies on both occasions even though he was so far offline and a massive green to aim at. That’s not golf. Golf is supposed to test all facets of the game...not just give rewards for length off the tee. The PGA Tour has sold its soul to the devil of distance and has become a complete borefest as a result.

> > >

> >

> > lol. I recall Spieth playing from the driving range one year at the British Open.....and won.

>

> Forty years ago Seve won hitting out of a parking lot. He hit one fairway in his final round at Lytham.

Thanks for helping make my point. I do recall seeing that highlight before.

Titleist99 · July 22, 2019

> @NoodleSalad said:

> > @Titleist99 said:

> > > @JaNelson38 said:

> > > > @Titleist99 said:

> > > > > @JaNelson38 said:

> > > > > > @Titleist99 said:

> > > > > > > @Vindog said:

> > > > > > > No bomb and gauge yet the leader board looks remarkably like almost every other leader board. Like, the best players are the best players and stuff.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > My point is that this is a more strategic golf course verses, hit it as far as you can and go find it. Wild off the tee will not work here...

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > Wild off the tee doesnt work in most pro tournaments. This idea that every track is "bomb and gauge" is ridiculous, because it's not. If the win didnt blow tomorrow, Lowry likely breaks -20 and a whole host of guys are double digits under par. Just because it's done by running balls up on the green instead of with wedges is irrelevant...a birdie is a birdie.

> > > > >

> > > > > People need to start being honest with regards to PGA Tour events, and just realize that these players are good. They're professionals for a reason.

> > > >

> > > > Maybe I should explain what bomb & gouge means to me: 7600 yards, wide fairways, minimal rough, hit it 330 yards, wedge it on the green from anywhere. Rinse and repeat. Of course these guy are good, no one implied other wise. Target golf n the U.S. is the norm...

> > > > just for clarification>most, not all courses..

> > >

> > > If you truly think that's how most PGA Tour tracks are, you obviously have never seen one up close and in person during an actual event. Most golf courses used for PGA Tour events are actually made ridiculously harder than when they are open for public/member use. The fairways look wide on TV, but they're not. The greens are basically glass. The amount of skill that is needed to post the scores they do on these courses is absurd. It's just a testament to how fricken good they are.

> > >

> > > And if you think everyone hits it 330 and "wedges it from anywhere"...that just proves how obtuse you are to the subject.

> > If you don't understand that I was generalizing then there's no help for you. Substitute 330 yards with (long drives).Everyone do not drive 330. No, every course they play isn't 7600 yards you can substitute (longer courses). The modern game is hit it as far as you can and wedge it on the green. Distance over accuracy.

> >

> I see. "Please discount 99% of what I wrote, including every number I used, but I still have a GREAT point."

No...…..A reasonable person would have known not to take it literally. My only mistake was giving the nit pickers a generalization.

Darth Putter · July 22, 2019

> @BiggErn said:

> > @"Darth Putter" said:

> > > @BiggErn said:

> > > > @mahonie said:

> > > > > @NoodleSalad said:

> > > > > Why do people say this kind of golf is natural? Sky ran a segment on architect Martin Ebert, mentioning his renovations to the course. They showed a gigantic earth mover forming artificial mounds somewhere on one of his redesigned holes. Not natural, sorry! Then there's all the internal OB which is just garbage and not natural at all.

> > > > Sky also ran a segment during one of the PGA Tour events last year...can’t remember which one, they all seem to be one big tournament to me...where they looked at one hole where Justin Thomas hit drives on 2 consecutive days that finished 290 yards apart...one straight left, one straight right (no wind to speak of) and he still made par 4. The commentators called it miraculous...not really, he had great lies on both occasions even though he was so far offline and a massive green to aim at. That’s not golf. Golf is supposed to test all facets of the game...not just give rewards for length off the tee. The PGA Tour has sold its soul to the devil of distance and has become a complete borefest as a result.

> > > >

> > >

> > > lol. I recall Spieth playing from the driving range one year at the British Open.....and won.

> >

> > Forty years ago Seve won hitting out of a parking lot. He hit one fairway in his final round at Lytham.

>

> Thanks for helping make my point. I do recall seeing that highlight before.

Historically, if you're a bomb and gouge golfer, your best chances of winning a major are in this order...

The Masters

British Open

PGA (especially at match play)

US Open

Titleist99 · July 22, 2019

> @RickKimbrell said:

> > @"Darth Putter" said:

> >

> > Forty years ago Seve won hitting out of a parking lot. He hit one fairway in his final round at Lytham.

> Seve...now there was a guy who could hit it from just about anywhere. Probably the first non-American player who really impressed me and that I loved to watch play.

>

A scrambling Tiger of old wasn't bad either ……..LOL!

mahonie · July 22, 2019

> @"Ashley Schaeffer" said:

> > @mahonie said:

> > > @farmer said:

> > > > @mahonie said:

> > > > > @farmer said:

> > > > > > @mahonie said:

> > > > > > > @farmer said:

> > > > > > > > @2bGood said:

> > > > > > > > > @farmer said:

> > > > > > > > > I'm probably in the minority, but I would not enjoy playing a course that beats me up every time I play. If RP had really severe greens, it would be nearly unplayable for just-a-guy type players.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > RP is seriously tough. I played it last fall and shot 93 (after ESC!!!) off a 4 handicap. The wind was howling and missing fairways or green was VERY costly to your score as it often resulted in a lost ball as we did not have spotters.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > I would love to play it again in more friendly weather and see if I could break 80, but on that day the course was way more challenge than I had game.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Now that is tough, which makes my point. I would need to play forward tees, but even from that length, I just can't see the fun.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > I don’t get this thing about forward tees. Typically in the UK you have 2 sets of tees for men (daily play and competition tees) and a set of ladies tees. Some courses may have junior tees. Unless you’re playing in a competition, you play off the daily play tees.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > The trick of good course design is to make the course playable without having to resort to several tees. Each hole should be a challenge but should also reward good shots...Royal Portrush seems to be typical of links golf in that it generally satisfies these criteria. The big variable is the weather and particularly the wind where the luck of the draw may play a massive part but that has always been a part of golf.

> > > > >

> > > > > Get old and you will understand about forward tees.

> > > > Big 50 for me next year...I play with guys in their 70s who max out at 150 yards and teenagers who smash irons past my driver...we all play the same course off the same tees and it’s handicap that lets us all compete with each other. My point is, if a course is properly designed, you will be rewarded for good shots and punished for bad. Courses that punish you for not being long enough and require different sets of tees to compensate are poorly designed.

> > > >

> > >

> > > 50 is not even in the conversation about old, unless you're 22. A course cannot be designed that plays the same for a guy who drives 200 vs a guy who drives it 250 without the use of different tees. If you don't believe me, play your approach club off the tee, then play your driving club for your next shot. To topic, there was a lot of gouging today.

> > If the guy driving it 250 is not straight, the guy hitting it 200 but straight wins every time on a well-designed course...just saying.

> >

> > My home course is 6,100 off the tips, par 71...course record is 65. Yet the course is enjoyable for scratch players and 28 handicappers alike...all playing off the same tees. If you’re not straight your dead...if you’re straight and long you can score well.

> >

>

> Interesting. So, do you hit your 200 club or your 250 club straighter? 200 club, right?

>

> So, I trust you must never hit a 250 club on that perfectly designed course, right?

>

> The only reason to ever, ever, hit the less accurate club, that a 200 yard club would beat “every time” on that perfectly designed course would be to, what? Try to create a distance advantage or something? Nah, because 200 wins every time if the design is good. 250 is less accurate, so if the design is good, it’s worse. You must save a fortune on drivers and woods!

>

The point is that y’all seem to be missing is that if the guy can hit 250 yards and straight, he will win every time. But how often can he pull it off on a tight course? That’s the risk/reward of a well-designed golf hole. If he can smash it anywhere and still have a shot at the green, where’s the challenge?

BiggErn · July 22, 2019

> @mahonie said:

> > @"Ashley Schaeffer" said:

> > > @mahonie said:

> > > > @farmer said:

> > > > > @mahonie said:

> > > > > > @farmer said:

> > > > > > > @mahonie said:

> > > > > > > > @farmer said:

> > > > > > > > > @2bGood said:

> > > > > > > > > > @farmer said:

> > > > > > > > > > I'm probably in the minority, but I would not enjoy playing a course that beats me up every time I play. If RP had really severe greens, it would be nearly unplayable for just-a-guy type players.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > RP is seriously tough. I played it last fall and shot 93 (after ESC!!!) off a 4 handicap. The wind was howling and missing fairways or green was VERY costly to your score as it often resulted in a lost ball as we did not have spotters.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > I would love to play it again in more friendly weather and see if I could break 80, but on that day the course was way more challenge than I had game.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > Now that is tough, which makes my point. I would need to play forward tees, but even from that length, I just can't see the fun.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > I don’t get this thing about forward tees. Typically in the UK you have 2 sets of tees for men (daily play and competition tees) and a set of ladies tees. Some courses may have junior tees. Unless you’re playing in a competition, you play off the daily play tees.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > The trick of good course design is to make the course playable without having to resort to several tees. Each hole should be a challenge but should also reward good shots...Royal Portrush seems to be typical of links golf in that it generally satisfies these criteria. The big variable is the weather and particularly the wind where the luck of the draw may play a massive part but that has always been a part of golf.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Get old and you will understand about forward tees.

> > > > > Big 50 for me next year...I play with guys in their 70s who max out at 150 yards and teenagers who smash irons past my driver...we all play the same course off the same tees and it’s handicap that lets us all compete with each other. My point is, if a course is properly designed, you will be rewarded for good shots and punished for bad. Courses that punish you for not being long enough and require different sets of tees to compensate are poorly designed.

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > 50 is not even in the conversation about old, unless you're 22. A course cannot be designed that plays the same for a guy who drives 200 vs a guy who drives it 250 without the use of different tees. If you don't believe me, play your approach club off the tee, then play your driving club for your next shot. To topic, there was a lot of gouging today.

> > > If the guy driving it 250 is not straight, the guy hitting it 200 but straight wins every time on a well-designed course...just saying.

> > >

> > > My home course is 6,100 off the tips, par 71...course record is 65. Yet the course is enjoyable for scratch players and 28 handicappers alike...all playing off the same tees. If you’re not straight your dead...if you’re straight and long you can score well.

> > >

> >

> > Interesting. So, do you hit your 200 club or your 250 club straighter? 200 club, right?

> >

> > So, I trust you must never hit a 250 club on that perfectly designed course, right?

> >

> > The only reason to ever, ever, hit the less accurate club, that a 200 yard club would beat “every time” on that perfectly designed course would be to, what? Try to create a distance advantage or something? Nah, because 200 wins every time if the design is good. 250 is less accurate, so if the design is good, it’s worse. You must save a fortune on drivers and woods!

> >

> The point is that y’all seem to be missing is that if the guy can hit 250 yards and straight, he will win every time. But how often can he pull it off on a tight course? That’s the risk/reward of a well-designed golf hole. If he can smash it anywhere and still have a shot at the green, where’s the challenge?

>

Being able to recover from a bad shot is also a valuable skill in golf, not everyone is good at it. Where’s the skill in chipping out sideways?

mahonie · July 22, 2019

> @BiggErn said:

> > @mahonie said:

> > > @farmer said:

> > > > @mahonie said:

> > > > > @farmer said:

> > > > > > @2bGood said:

> > > > > > > @farmer said:

> > > > > > > I'm probably in the minority, but I would not enjoy playing a course that beats me up every time I play. If RP had really severe greens, it would be nearly unplayable for just-a-guy type players.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > RP is seriously tough. I played it last fall and shot 93 (after ESC!!!) off a 4 handicap. The wind was howling and missing fairways or green was VERY costly to your score as it often resulted in a lost ball as we did not have spotters.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > I would love to play it again in more friendly weather and see if I could break 80, but on that day the course was way more challenge than I had game.

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > Now that is tough, which makes my point. I would need to play forward tees, but even from that length, I just can't see the fun.

> > > >

> > > > I don’t get this thing about forward tees. Typically in the UK you have 2 sets of tees for men (daily play and competition tees) and a set of ladies tees. Some courses may have junior tees. Unless you’re playing in a competition, you play off the daily play tees.

> > > >

> > > > The trick of good course design is to make the course playable without having to resort to several tees. Each hole should be a challenge but should also reward good shots...Royal Portrush seems to be typical of links golf in that it generally satisfies these criteria. The big variable is the weather and particularly the wind where the luck of the draw may play a massive part but that has always been a part of golf.

> > >

> > > Get old and you will understand about forward tees.

> > Big 50 for me next year...I play with guys in their 70s who max out at 150 yards and teenagers who smash irons past my driver...we all play the same course off the same tees and it’s handicap that lets us all compete with each other. My point is, if a course is properly designed, you will be rewarded for good shots and punished for bad. Courses that punish you for not being long enough and require different sets of tees to compensate are poorly designed.

> >

>

> What person that maxes out at 150 would enjoy playing a 450 yard par 4? How do they play 200+ yard par 3s? Having multiple sets of tees to accommodate for various handicaps and distances makes complete sense.

Longest par 4 at my course is 441 yards and is rightly recognised as the hardest hole on the course. Low handicappers are happy to walk off with a par, those that are distance-challenged play it as a par 5 and are happy with that knowing that their handicap will give them a nett par.

Longest par 3 is 195 yards but it’s uphill and plays more like 210. Granted, some players can’t reach unless they really catch one...having said that, hitting that green is an achievement for anyone.

Question: If your 4-ball are all playing off different tees how the hell do you score fairly? Do you do it by handicap or by distance of longest club? I really am intrigued.

mahonie · July 22, 2019

L> @BiggErn said:

> > @mahonie said:

> > > @"Ashley Schaeffer" said:

> > > > @mahonie said:

> > > > > @farmer said:

> > > > > > @mahonie said:

> > > > > > > @farmer said:

> > > > > > > > @mahonie said:

> > > > > > > > > @farmer said:

> > > > > > > > > > @2bGood said:

> > > > > > > > > > > @farmer said:

> > > > > > > > > > > I'm probably in the minority, but I would not enjoy playing a course that beats me up every time I play. If RP had really severe greens, it would be nearly unplayable for just-a-guy type players.

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > RP is seriously tough. I played it last fall and shot 93 (after ESC!!!) off a 4 handicap. The wind was howling and missing fairways or green was VERY costly to your score as it often resulted in a lost ball as we did not have spotters.

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > I would love to play it again in more friendly weather and see if I could break 80, but on that day the course was way more challenge than I had game.

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > Now that is tough, which makes my point. I would need to play forward tees, but even from that length, I just can't see the fun.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > I don’t get this thing about forward tees. Typically in the UK you have 2 sets of tees for men (daily play and competition tees) and a set of ladies tees. Some courses may have junior tees. Unless you’re playing in a competition, you play off the daily play tees.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > The trick of good course design is to make the course playable without having to resort to several tees. Each hole should be a challenge but should also reward good shots...Royal Portrush seems to be typical of links golf in that it generally satisfies these criteria. The big variable is the weather and particularly the wind where the luck of the draw may play a massive part but that has always been a part of golf.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Get old and you will understand about forward tees.

> > > > > > Big 50 for me next year...I play with guys in their 70s who max out at 150 yards and teenagers who smash irons past my driver...we all play the same course off the same tees and it’s handicap that lets us all compete with each other. My point is, if a course is properly designed, you will be rewarded for good shots and punished for bad. Courses that punish you for not being long enough and require different sets of tees to compensate are poorly designed.

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > 50 is not even in the conversation about old, unless you're 22. A course cannot be designed that plays the same for a guy who drives 200 vs a guy who drives it 250 without the use of different tees. If you don't believe me, play your approach club off the tee, then play your driving club for your next shot. To topic, there was a lot of gouging today.

> > > > If the guy driving it 250 is not straight, the guy hitting it 200 but straight wins every time on a well-designed course...just saying.

> > > >

> > > > My home course is 6,100 off the tips, par 71...course record is 65. Yet the course is enjoyable for scratch players and 28 handicappers alike...all playing off the same tees. If you’re not straight your dead...if you’re straight and long you can score well.

> > > >

> > >

> > > Interesting. So, do you hit your 200 club or your 250 club straighter? 200 club, right?

> > >

> > > So, I trust you must never hit a 250 club on that perfectly designed course, right?

> > >

> > > The only reason to ever, ever, hit the less accurate club, that a 200 yard club would beat “every time” on that perfectly designed course would be to, what? Try to create a distance advantage or something? Nah, because 200 wins every time if the design is good. 250 is less accurate, so if the design is good, it’s worse. You must save a fortune on drivers and woods!

> > >

> > The point is that y’all seem to be missing is that if the guy can hit 250 yards and straight, he will win every time. But how often can he pull it off on a tight course? That’s the risk/reward of a well-designed golf hole. If he can smash it anywhere and still have a shot at the green, where’s the challenge?

> >

>

> Being able to recover from a bad shot is also a valuable skill in golf, not everyone is good at it. Where’s the skill in chipping out sideways?

That’s course management...Lowry did it yesterday. In the rough off the tee, he played out to the fairway and took his bogey. It is all about balancing the risk with the reward. Bomb and gouge courses take that away from the game to a lesser or greater extent as there is reduced risk and you can just smash away with the driver knowing you still have a shot to the green wherever you finish.

It’s great for the ego to just smash driver on 14 holes...until you play a tight, strategic course and you’ve lost 14 balls and look like a muppet.

BiggErn · July 22, 2019

> @mahonie said:

> > @BiggErn said:

> > > @mahonie said:

> > > > @farmer said:

> > > > > @mahonie said:

> > > > > > @farmer said:

> > > > > > > @2bGood said:

> > > > > > > > @farmer said:

> > > > > > > > I'm probably in the minority, but I would not enjoy playing a course that beats me up every time I play. If RP had really severe greens, it would be nearly unplayable for just-a-guy type players.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > RP is seriously tough. I played it last fall and shot 93 (after ESC!!!) off a 4 handicap. The wind was howling and missing fairways or green was VERY costly to your score as it often resulted in a lost ball as we did not have spotters.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > I would love to play it again in more friendly weather and see if I could break 80, but on that day the course was way more challenge than I had game.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Now that is tough, which makes my point. I would need to play forward tees, but even from that length, I just can't see the fun.

> > > > >

> > > > > I don’t get this thing about forward tees. Typically in the UK you have 2 sets of tees for men (daily play and competition tees) and a set of ladies tees. Some courses may have junior tees. Unless you’re playing in a competition, you play off the daily play tees.

> > > > >

> > > > > The trick of good course design is to make the course playable without having to resort to several tees. Each hole should be a challenge but should also reward good shots...Royal Portrush seems to be typical of links golf in that it generally satisfies these criteria. The big variable is the weather and particularly the wind where the luck of the draw may play a massive part but that has always been a part of golf.

> > > >

> > > > Get old and you will understand about forward tees.

> > > Big 50 for me next year...I play with guys in their 70s who max out at 150 yards and teenagers who smash irons past my driver...we all play the same course off the same tees and it’s handicap that lets us all compete with each other. My point is, if a course is properly designed, you will be rewarded for good shots and punished for bad. Courses that punish you for not being long enough and require different sets of tees to compensate are poorly designed.

> > >

> >

> > What person that maxes out at 150 would enjoy playing a 450 yard par 4? How do they play 200+ yard par 3s? Having multiple sets of tees to accommodate for various handicaps and distances makes complete sense.

>

> Longest par 4 at my course is 441 yards and is rightly recognised as the hardest hole on the course. Low handicappers are happy to walk off with a par, those that are distance-challenged play it as a par 5 and are happy with that knowing that their handicap will give them a nett par.

>

> Longest par 3 is 195 yards but it’s uphill and plays more like 210. Granted, some players can’t reach unless they really catch one...having said that, hitting that green is an achievement for anyone.

>

> Question: If your 4-ball are all playing off different tees how the **** do you score fairly? Do you do it by handicap or by distance of longest club? I really am intrigued.

We don’t play from different tees. We try to balance it out as best we can so the shortest hitting guy has a chance to hit some good shots and have a good time. It still requires everyone else to hit good shots....imagine that. Depending on who I play with I sometimes play from the tips, sometimes from the next set up, and depending on the course and number of tees maybe another set up. That usually only leaves the senior and ladies tees that I obviously never play. When I enter my score and tees played it does the math for me and I only use HC as a personal measuring stick for my improvement and state of my game not something to balance out the score with my playing partners.

Titleist99 · July 22, 2019

> @mahonie said:

> L> @BiggErn said:

> > > @mahonie said:

> > > > @"Ashley Schaeffer" said:

> > > > > @mahonie said:

> > > > > > @farmer said:

> > > > > > > @mahonie said:

> > > > > > > > @farmer said:

> > > > > > > > > @mahonie said:

> > > > > > > > > > @farmer said:

> > > > > > > > > > > @2bGood said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > @farmer said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > I'm probably in the minority, but I would not enjoy playing a course that beats me up every time I play. If RP had really severe greens, it would be nearly unplayable for just-a-guy type players.

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > RP is seriously tough. I played it last fall and shot 93 (after ESC!!!) off a 4 handicap. The wind was howling and missing fairways or green was VERY costly to your score as it often resulted in a lost ball as we did not have spotters.

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > I would love to play it again in more friendly weather and see if I could break 80, but on that day the course was way more challenge than I had game.

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > Now that is tough, which makes my point. I would need to play forward tees, but even from that length, I just can't see the fun.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > I don’t get this thing about forward tees. Typically in the UK you have 2 sets of tees for men (daily play and competition tees) and a set of ladies tees. Some courses may have junior tees. Unless you’re playing in a competition, you play off the daily play tees.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > The trick of good course design is to make the course playable without having to resort to several tees. Each hole should be a challenge but should also reward good shots...Royal Portrush seems to be typical of links golf in that it generally satisfies these criteria. The big variable is the weather and particularly the wind where the luck of the draw may play a massive part but that has always been a part of golf.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > Get old and you will understand about forward tees.

> > > > > > > Big 50 for me next year...I play with guys in their 70s who max out at 150 yards and teenagers who smash irons past my driver...we all play the same course off the same tees and it’s handicap that lets us all compete with each other. My point is, if a course is properly designed, you will be rewarded for good shots and punished for bad. Courses that punish you for not being long enough and require different sets of tees to compensate are poorly designed.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > > 50 is not even in the conversation about old, unless you're 22. A course cannot be designed that plays the same for a guy who drives 200 vs a guy who drives it 250 without the use of different tees. If you don't believe me, play your approach club off the tee, then play your driving club for your next shot. To topic, there was a lot of gouging today.

> > > > > If the guy driving it 250 is not straight, the guy hitting it 200 but straight wins every time on a well-designed course...just saying.

> > > > >

> > > > > My home course is 6,100 off the tips, par 71...course record is 65. Yet the course is enjoyable for scratch players and 28 handicappers alike...all playing off the same tees. If you’re not straight your dead...if you’re straight and long you can score well.

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > Interesting. So, do you hit your 200 club or your 250 club straighter? 200 club, right?

> > > >

> > > > So, I trust you must never hit a 250 club on that perfectly designed course, right?

> > > >

> > > > The only reason to ever, ever, hit the less accurate club, that a 200 yard club would beat “every time” on that perfectly designed course would be to, what? Try to create a distance advantage or something? Nah, because 200 wins every time if the design is good. 250 is less accurate, so if the design is good, it’s worse. You must save a fortune on drivers and woods!

> > > >

> > > The point is that y’all seem to be missing is that if the guy can hit 250 yards and straight, he will win every time. But how often can he pull it off on a tight course? That’s the risk/reward of a well-designed golf hole. If he can smash it anywhere and still have a shot at the green, where’s the challenge?

> > >

> >

> > Being able to recover from a bad shot is also a valuable skill in golf, not everyone is good at it. Where’s the skill in chipping out sideways?

>

> That’s course management...Lowry did it yesterday. In the rough off the tee, he played out to the fairway and took his bogey. It is all about balancing the risk with the reward. Bomb and gouge courses take that away from the game to a lesser or greater extent as there is reduced risk and you can just smash away with the driver knowing you still have a shot to the green wherever you finish.

>

> It’s great for the ego to just smash driver on 14 holes...until you play a tight, strategic course and you’ve lost 14 balls and look like a muppet.

>

You're right, I loved Lowry's strategy for the final round. Now Fleetwood went insane at times....

BiggErn · July 22, 2019

> @mahonie said:

> L> @BiggErn said:

> > > @mahonie said:

> > > > @"Ashley Schaeffer" said:

> > > > > @mahonie said:

> > > > > > @farmer said:

> > > > > > > @mahonie said:

> > > > > > > > @farmer said:

> > > > > > > > > @mahonie said:

> > > > > > > > > > @farmer said:

> > > > > > > > > > > @2bGood said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > @farmer said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > I'm probably in the minority, but I would not enjoy playing a course that beats me up every time I play. If RP had really severe greens, it would be nearly unplayable for just-a-guy type players.

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > RP is seriously tough. I played it last fall and shot 93 (after ESC!!!) off a 4 handicap. The wind was howling and missing fairways or green was VERY costly to your score as it often resulted in a lost ball as we did not have spotters.

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > I would love to play it again in more friendly weather and see if I could break 80, but on that day the course was way more challenge than I had game.

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > Now that is tough, which makes my point. I would need to play forward tees, but even from that length, I just can't see the fun.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > I don’t get this thing about forward tees. Typically in the UK you have 2 sets of tees for men (daily play and competition tees) and a set of ladies tees. Some courses may have junior tees. Unless you’re playing in a competition, you play off the daily play tees.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > The trick of good course design is to make the course playable without having to resort to several tees. Each hole should be a challenge but should also reward good shots...Royal Portrush seems to be typical of links golf in that it generally satisfies these criteria. The big variable is the weather and particularly the wind where the luck of the draw may play a massive part but that has always been a part of golf.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > Get old and you will understand about forward tees.

> > > > > > > Big 50 for me next year...I play with guys in their 70s who max out at 150 yards and teenagers who smash irons past my driver...we all play the same course off the same tees and it’s handicap that lets us all compete with each other. My point is, if a course is properly designed, you will be rewarded for good shots and punished for bad. Courses that punish you for not being long enough and require different sets of tees to compensate are poorly designed.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > > 50 is not even in the conversation about old, unless you're 22. A course cannot be designed that plays the same for a guy who drives 200 vs a guy who drives it 250 without the use of different tees. If you don't believe me, play your approach club off the tee, then play your driving club for your next shot. To topic, there was a lot of gouging today.

> > > > > If the guy driving it 250 is not straight, the guy hitting it 200 but straight wins every time on a well-designed course...just saying.

> > > > >

> > > > > My home course is 6,100 off the tips, par 71...course record is 65. Yet the course is enjoyable for scratch players and 28 handicappers alike...all playing off the same tees. If you’re not straight your dead...if you’re straight and long you can score well.

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > Interesting. So, do you hit your 200 club or your 250 club straighter? 200 club, right?

> > > >

> > > > So, I trust you must never hit a 250 club on that perfectly designed course, right?

> > > >

> > > > The only reason to ever, ever, hit the less accurate club, that a 200 yard club would beat “every time” on that perfectly designed course would be to, what? Try to create a distance advantage or something? Nah, because 200 wins every time if the design is good. 250 is less accurate, so if the design is good, it’s worse. You must save a fortune on drivers and woods!

> > > >

> > > The point is that y’all seem to be missing is that if the guy can hit 250 yards and straight, he will win every time. But how often can he pull it off on a tight course? That’s the risk/reward of a well-designed golf hole. If he can smash it anywhere and still have a shot at the green, where’s the challenge?

> > >

> >

> > Being able to recover from a bad shot is also a valuable skill in golf, not everyone is good at it. Where’s the skill in chipping out sideways?

>

> That’s course management...Lowry did it yesterday. In the rough off the tee, he played out to the fairway and took his bogey. It is all about balancing the risk with the reward. Bomb and gouge courses take that away from the game to a lesser or greater extent as there is reduced risk and you can just smash away with the driver knowing you still have a shot to the green wherever you finish.

>

> It’s great for the ego to just smash driver on 14 holes...until you play a tight, strategic course and you’ve lost 14 balls and look like a muppet.

>

I don’t think I play many courses where I hit driver 14 times. It’s not because the holes are tight it’s because there’s a dog leg or you have to stay short of trouble. I can miss a fairway with an iron or fairway wood pretty much as easily as I can driver. Sometimes I have a feasible chance to recover and sometimes I have to just put it back in play. It’s weighing the risks and knowing your ability. That’s course management.

bscinstnct · July 22, 2019

I had fun at a local, non-tourist, golf course in Ireland. Like a muni. The way many of the locals play is very different that the way we do.

They keep the ball on the ground. Lots or irons off the tee that carry 150 but roll out far. You see them just flick their wrists and snap low irons. Even the greens are pretty much set up so you can usually putt when off the green and don't need a wedge.

This local guy we got paired with played like this and was very effective. He said he rarely played but got around fine. He said he was on vacation. Then after like 12 holes he said he had to go. "Where?", we asked. "To work". The guy was working a job while on vacation ; )

BiggErn · July 22, 2019

> @Titleist99 said:

> > @mahonie said:

> > L> @BiggErn said:

> > > > @mahonie said:

> > > > > @"Ashley Schaeffer" said:

> > > > > > @mahonie said:

> > > > > > > @farmer said:

> > > > > > > > @mahonie said:

> > > > > > > > > @farmer said:

> > > > > > > > > > @mahonie said:

> > > > > > > > > > > @farmer said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > @2bGood said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > > @farmer said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > > I'm probably in the minority, but I would not enjoy playing a course that beats me up every time I play. If RP had really severe greens, it would be nearly unplayable for just-a-guy type players.

> > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > RP is seriously tough. I played it last fall and shot 93 (after ESC!!!) off a 4 handicap. The wind was howling and missing fairways or green was VERY costly to your score as it often resulted in a lost ball as we did not have spotters.

> > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > I would love to play it again in more friendly weather and see if I could break 80, but on that day the course was way more challenge than I had game.

> > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > Now that is tough, which makes my point. I would need to play forward tees, but even from that length, I just can't see the fun.

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > I don’t get this thing about forward tees. Typically in the UK you have 2 sets of tees for men (daily play and competition tees) and a set of ladies tees. Some courses may have junior tees. Unless you’re playing in a competition, you play off the daily play tees.

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > The trick of good course design is to make the course playable without having to resort to several tees. Each hole should be a challenge but should also reward good shots...Royal Portrush seems to be typical of links golf in that it generally satisfies these criteria. The big variable is the weather and particularly the wind where the luck of the draw may play a massive part but that has always been a part of golf.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > Get old and you will understand about forward tees.

> > > > > > > > Big 50 for me next year...I play with guys in their 70s who max out at 150 yards and teenagers who smash irons past my driver...we all play the same course off the same tees and it’s handicap that lets us all compete with each other. My point is, if a course is properly designed, you will be rewarded for good shots and punished for bad. Courses that punish you for not being long enough and require different sets of tees to compensate are poorly designed.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > 50 is not even in the conversation about old, unless you're 22. A course cannot be designed that plays the same for a guy who drives 200 vs a guy who drives it 250 without the use of different tees. If you don't believe me, play your approach club off the tee, then play your driving club for your next shot. To topic, there was a lot of gouging today.

> > > > > > If the guy driving it 250 is not straight, the guy hitting it 200 but straight wins every time on a well-designed course...just saying.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > My home course is 6,100 off the tips, par 71...course record is 65. Yet the course is enjoyable for scratch players and 28 handicappers alike...all playing off the same tees. If you’re not straight your dead...if you’re straight and long you can score well.

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > Interesting. So, do you hit your 200 club or your 250 club straighter? 200 club, right?

> > > > >

> > > > > So, I trust you must never hit a 250 club on that perfectly designed course, right?

> > > > >

> > > > > The only reason to ever, ever, hit the less accurate club, that a 200 yard club would beat “every time” on that perfectly designed course would be to, what? Try to create a distance advantage or something? Nah, because 200 wins every time if the design is good. 250 is less accurate, so if the design is good, it’s worse. You must save a fortune on drivers and woods!

> > > > >

> > > > The point is that y’all seem to be missing is that if the guy can hit 250 yards and straight, he will win every time. But how often can he pull it off on a tight course? That’s the risk/reward of a well-designed golf hole. If he can smash it anywhere and still have a shot at the green, where’s the challenge?

> > > >

> > >

> > > Being able to recover from a bad shot is also a valuable skill in golf, not everyone is good at it. Where’s the skill in chipping out sideways?

> >

> > That’s course management...Lowry did it yesterday. In the rough off the tee, he played out to the fairway and took his bogey. It is all about balancing the risk with the reward. Bomb and gouge courses take that away from the game to a lesser or greater extent as there is reduced risk and you can just smash away with the driver knowing you still have a shot to the green wherever you finish.

> >

> > It’s great for the ego to just smash driver on 14 holes...until you play a tight, strategic course and you’ve lost 14 balls and look like a muppet.

> >

> You're right, I loved Lowry's strategy for the final round. Now Fleetwood went insane at times....

>

When you’re a handful of shots back I doubt playing safe was his mindset. Unless you’re saying he should’ve played smart to solidify 2nd versus taking risks to try and win.

mahonie · July 22, 2019

> @BiggErn said:

> > @mahonie said:

> > L> @BiggErn said:

> > > > @mahonie said:

> > > > > @"Ashley Schaeffer" said:

> > > > > > @mahonie said:

> > > > > > > @farmer said:

> > > > > > > > @mahonie said:

> > > > > > > > > @farmer said:

> > > > > > > > > > @mahonie said:

> > > > > > > > > > > @farmer said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > @2bGood said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > > @farmer said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > > I'm probably in the minority, but I would not enjoy playing a course that beats me up every time I play. If RP had really severe greens, it would be nearly unplayable for just-a-guy type players.

> > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > RP is seriously tough. I played it last fall and shot 93 (after ESC!!!) off a 4 handicap. The wind was howling and missing fairways or green was VERY costly to your score as it often resulted in a lost ball as we did not have spotters.

> > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > I would love to play it again in more friendly weather and see if I could break 80, but on that day the course was way more challenge than I had game.

> > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > Now that is tough, which makes my point. I would need to play forward tees, but even from that length, I just can't see the fun.

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > I don’t get this thing about forward tees. Typically in the UK you have 2 sets of tees for men (daily play and competition tees) and a set of ladies tees. Some courses may have junior tees. Unless you’re playing in a competition, you play off the daily play tees.

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > The trick of good course design is to make the course playable without having to resort to several tees. Each hole should be a challenge but should also reward good shots...Royal Portrush seems to be typical of links golf in that it generally satisfies these criteria. The big variable is the weather and particularly the wind where the luck of the draw may play a massive part but that has always been a part of golf.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > Get old and you will understand about forward tees.

> > > > > > > > Big 50 for me next year...I play with guys in their 70s who max out at 150 yards and teenagers who smash irons past my driver...we all play the same course off the same tees and it’s handicap that lets us all compete with each other. My point is, if a course is properly designed, you will be rewarded for good shots and punished for bad. Courses that punish you for not being long enough and require different sets of tees to compensate are poorly designed.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > 50 is not even in the conversation about old, unless you're 22. A course cannot be designed that plays the same for a guy who drives 200 vs a guy who drives it 250 without the use of different tees. If you don't believe me, play your approach club off the tee, then play your driving club for your next shot. To topic, there was a lot of gouging today.

> > > > > > If the guy driving it 250 is not straight, the guy hitting it 200 but straight wins every time on a well-designed course...just saying.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > My home course is 6,100 off the tips, par 71...course record is 65. Yet the course is enjoyable for scratch players and 28 handicappers alike...all playing off the same tees. If you’re not straight your dead...if you’re straight and long you can score well.

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > Interesting. So, do you hit your 200 club or your 250 club straighter? 200 club, right?

> > > > >

> > > > > So, I trust you must never hit a 250 club on that perfectly designed course, right?

> > > > >

> > > > > The only reason to ever, ever, hit the less accurate club, that a 200 yard club would beat “every time” on that perfectly designed course would be to, what? Try to create a distance advantage or something? Nah, because 200 wins every time if the design is good. 250 is less accurate, so if the design is good, it’s worse. You must save a fortune on drivers and woods!

> > > > >

> > > > The point is that y’all seem to be missing is that if the guy can hit 250 yards and straight, he will win every time. But how often can he pull it off on a tight course? That’s the risk/reward of a well-designed golf hole. If he can smash it anywhere and still have a shot at the green, where’s the challenge?

> > > >

> > >

> > > Being able to recover from a bad shot is also a valuable skill in golf, not everyone is good at it. Where’s the skill in chipping out sideways?

> >

> > That’s course management...Lowry did it yesterday. In the rough off the tee, he played out to the fairway and took his bogey. It is all about balancing the risk with the reward. Bomb and gouge courses take that away from the game to a lesser or greater extent as there is reduced risk and you can just smash away with the driver knowing you still have a shot to the green wherever you finish.

> >

> > It’s great for the ego to just smash driver on 14 holes...until you play a tight, strategic course and you’ve lost 14 balls and look like a muppet.

> >

>

> I don’t think I play many courses where I hit driver 14 times. It’s not because the holes are tight it’s because there’s a dog leg or you have to stay short of trouble. I can miss a fairway with an iron or fairway wood pretty much as easily as I can driver. Sometimes I have a feasible chance to recover and sometimes I have to just put it back in play. It’s weighing the risks and knowing your ability. That’s course management.

That’s exactly what I mean...what we’re fed from the PGA Tour (at least from the coverage that we get in the UK) shows guys trying to smash it into wedge range at every opportunity and to be honest why wouldn’t you if the course is set up that way. It seems that you can be very wild off the tee but the punishment doesn’t fit the crime 9 times out of 10. That’s still course management, just management of a poor course.

mahonie · July 22, 2019

> @BiggErn said:

> > @mahonie said:

> > > @BiggErn said:

> > > > @mahonie said:

> > > > > @farmer said:

> > > > > > @mahonie said:

> > > > > > > @farmer said:

> > > > > > > > @2bGood said:

> > > > > > > > > @farmer said:

> > > > > > > > > I'm probably in the minority, but I would not enjoy playing a course that beats me up every time I play. If RP had really severe greens, it would be nearly unplayable for just-a-guy type players.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > RP is seriously tough. I played it last fall and shot 93 (after ESC!!!) off a 4 handicap. The wind was howling and missing fairways or green was VERY costly to your score as it often resulted in a lost ball as we did not have spotters.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > I would love to play it again in more friendly weather and see if I could break 80, but on that day the course was way more challenge than I had game.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Now that is tough, which makes my point. I would need to play forward tees, but even from that length, I just can't see the fun.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > I don’t get this thing about forward tees. Typically in the UK you have 2 sets of tees for men (daily play and competition tees) and a set of ladies tees. Some courses may have junior tees. Unless you’re playing in a competition, you play off the daily play tees.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > The trick of good course design is to make the course playable without having to resort to several tees. Each hole should be a challenge but should also reward good shots...Royal Portrush seems to be typical of links golf in that it generally satisfies these criteria. The big variable is the weather and particularly the wind where the luck of the draw may play a massive part but that has always been a part of golf.

> > > > >

> > > > > Get old and you will understand about forward tees.

> > > > Big 50 for me next year...I play with guys in their 70s who max out at 150 yards and teenagers who smash irons past my driver...we all play the same course off the same tees and it’s handicap that lets us all compete with each other. My point is, if a course is properly designed, you will be rewarded for good shots and punished for bad. Courses that punish you for not being long enough and require different sets of tees to compensate are poorly designed.

> > > >

> > >

> > > What person that maxes out at 150 would enjoy playing a 450 yard par 4? How do they play 200+ yard par 3s? Having multiple sets of tees to accommodate for various handicaps and distances makes complete sense.

> >

> > Longest par 4 at my course is 441 yards and is rightly recognised as the hardest hole on the course. Low handicappers are happy to walk off with a par, those that are distance-challenged play it as a par 5 and are happy with that knowing that their handicap will give them a nett par.

> >

> > Longest par 3 is 195 yards but it’s uphill and plays more like 210. Granted, some players can’t reach unless they really catch one...having said that, hitting that green is an achievement for anyone.

> >

> > Question: If your 4-ball are all playing off different tees how the **** do you score fairly? Do you do it by handicap or by distance of longest club? I really am intrigued.

>

> We don’t play from different tees. We try to balance it out as best we can so the shortest hitting guy has a chance to hit some good shots and have a good time. It still requires everyone else to hit good shots....imagine that. Depending on who I play with I sometimes play from the tips, sometimes from the next set up, and depending on the course and number of tees maybe another set up. That usually only leaves the senior and ladies tees that I obviously never play. When I enter my score and tees played it does the math for me and I only use HC as a personal measuring stick for my improvement and state of my game not something to balance out the score with my playing partners.

I can see how that works.

My golf is a bit different in that games are either club competitions, inter-club competitions or ‘money’ games with friends in a golf society. In all cases, handicap strictly comes into play and is how all games are notionally played on a level playing field.

juliette91 · July 22, 2019

not sure where to add this comment but I thought Paul Azinger was a terrific announcer, for me the best of anyone out there going back a couple decades. As a non religious person I was always a bit offput by the way he used to insert his faith into comments, but viewing his performance objectively he really enhanced the broadcasts and his facial expressions and passion for the game and for the players showed up all the time. personally there's no one I'd rather hear do the "color" commentary except for maybe Judy Rankin's always astute, considerate and intelligent coverage.

Titleist99 · July 22, 2019

> @juliette91 said:

> not sure where to add this comment but I thought Paul Azinger was a terrific announcer, for me the best of anyone out there going back a couple decades. As a non religious person I was always a bit offput by the way he used to insert his faith into comments, but viewing his performance objectively he really enhanced the broadcasts and his facial expressions and passion for the game and for the players showed up all the time. personally there's no one I'd rather hear do the "color" commentary except for maybe Judy Rankin's always astute, considerate and intelligent coverage.

>

For the record ,,,, I'm a Paul Azinger fan as well....representing the common man

juliette91 · July 22, 2019

Thanks, he's always appropriate, never punishing, has great empathy for the game and the players and sometimes best of all he modulates his non golf professional "sidekick" (think it was Dan Hicks at the Open?) who often doesn't take into account much as he spouts off numbers and facts. Hicks (?) is like those sports announcers who start jumping on players' championship game/playoff/ etc. performances while comparing those performances to the rest of the year's stats. Azinger tempers those comments patiently and with the kind of common sense that Hicks? should use but doesn't

Titleist99 · July 22, 2019

> @BiggErn said:

> > @Titleist99 said:

> > > @mahonie said:

> > > L> @BiggErn said:

> > > > > @mahonie said:

> > > > > > @"Ashley Schaeffer" said:

> > > > > > > @mahonie said:

> > > > > > > > @farmer said:

> > > > > > > > > @mahonie said:

> > > > > > > > > > @farmer said:

> > > > > > > > > > > @mahonie said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > @farmer said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > > @2bGood said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > @farmer said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > I'm probably in the minority, but I would not enjoy playing a course that beats me up every time I play. If RP had really severe greens, it would be nearly unplayable for just-a-guy type players.

> > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > RP is seriously tough. I played it last fall and shot 93 (after ESC!!!) off a 4 handicap. The wind was howling and missing fairways or green was VERY costly to your score as it often resulted in a lost ball as we did not have spotters.

> > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > I would love to play it again in more friendly weather and see if I could break 80, but on that day the course was way more challenge than I had game.

> > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > Now that is tough, which makes my point. I would need to play forward tees, but even from that length, I just can't see the fun.

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > I don’t get this thing about forward tees. Typically in the UK you have 2 sets of tees for men (daily play and competition tees) and a set of ladies tees. Some courses may have junior tees. Unless you’re playing in a competition, you play off the daily play tees.

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > The trick of good course design is to make the course playable without having to resort to several tees. Each hole should be a challenge but should also reward good shots...Royal Portrush seems to be typical of links golf in that it generally satisfies these criteria. The big variable is the weather and particularly the wind where the luck of the draw may play a massive part but that has always been a part of golf.

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > Get old and you will understand about forward tees.

> > > > > > > > > Big 50 for me next year...I play with guys in their 70s who max out at 150 yards and teenagers who smash irons past my driver...we all play the same course off the same tees and it’s handicap that lets us all compete with each other. My point is, if a course is properly designed, you will be rewarded for good shots and punished for bad. Courses that punish you for not being long enough and require different sets of tees to compensate are poorly designed.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > 50 is not even in the conversation about old, unless you're 22. A course cannot be designed that plays the same for a guy who drives 200 vs a guy who drives it 250 without the use of different tees. If you don't believe me, play your approach club off the tee, then play your driving club for your next shot. To topic, there was a lot of gouging today.

> > > > > > > If the guy driving it 250 is not straight, the guy hitting it 200 but straight wins every time on a well-designed course...just saying.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > My home course is 6,100 off the tips, par 71...course record is 65. Yet the course is enjoyable for scratch players and 28 handicappers alike...all playing off the same tees. If you’re not straight your dead...if you’re straight and long you can score well.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Interesting. So, do you hit your 200 club or your 250 club straighter? 200 club, right?

> > > > > >

> > > > > > So, I trust you must never hit a 250 club on that perfectly designed course, right?

> > > > > >

> > > > > > The only reason to ever, ever, hit the less accurate club, that a 200 yard club would beat “every time” on that perfectly designed course would be to, what? Try to create a distance advantage or something? Nah, because 200 wins every time if the design is good. 250 is less accurate, so if the design is good, it’s worse. You must save a fortune on drivers and woods!

> > > > > >

> > > > > The point is that y’all seem to be missing is that if the guy can hit 250 yards and straight, he will win every time. But how often can he pull it off on a tight course? That’s the risk/reward of a well-designed golf hole. If he can smash it anywhere and still have a shot at the green, where’s the challenge?

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > Being able to recover from a bad shot is also a valuable skill in golf, not everyone is good at it. Where’s the skill in chipping out sideways?

> > >

> > > That’s course management...Lowry did it yesterday. In the rough off the tee, he played out to the fairway and took his bogey. It is all about balancing the risk with the reward. Bomb and gouge courses take that away from the game to a lesser or greater extent as there is reduced risk and you can just smash away with the driver knowing you still have a shot to the green wherever you finish.

> > >

> > > It’s great for the ego to just smash driver on 14 holes...until you play a tight, strategic course and you’ve lost 14 balls and look like a muppet.

> > >

> > You're right, I loved Lowry's strategy for the final round. Now Fleetwood went insane at times....

> >

>

> When you’re a handful of shots back I doubt playing safe was his mindset. Unless you’re saying he should’ve played smart to solidify 2nd versus taking risks to try and win.

Tommy had plenty of opportunities, starting from the first hole in the forth round. He did not capitalize on his opportunities due to bad decisions and bad putting...

Ashley Schaeffer · July 23, 2019

> @mahonie said:

> > @"Ashley Schaeffer" said:

> > > @mahonie said:

> > > > @farmer said:

> > > > > @mahonie said:

> > > > > > @farmer said:

> > > > > > > @mahonie said:

> > > > > > > > @farmer said:

> > > > > > > > > @2bGood said:

> > > > > > > > > > @farmer said:

> > > > > > > > > > I'm probably in the minority, but I would not enjoy playing a course that beats me up every time I play. If RP had really severe greens, it would be nearly unplayable for just-a-guy type players.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > RP is seriously tough. I played it last fall and shot 93 (after ESC!!!) off a 4 handicap. The wind was howling and missing fairways or green was VERY costly to your score as it often resulted in a lost ball as we did not have spotters.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > I would love to play it again in more friendly weather and see if I could break 80, but on that day the course was way more challenge than I had game.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > Now that is tough, which makes my point. I would need to play forward tees, but even from that length, I just can't see the fun.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > I don’t get this thing about forward tees. Typically in the UK you have 2 sets of tees for men (daily play and competition tees) and a set of ladies tees. Some courses may have junior tees. Unless you’re playing in a competition, you play off the daily play tees.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > The trick of good course design is to make the course playable without having to resort to several tees. Each hole should be a challenge but should also reward good shots...Royal Portrush seems to be typical of links golf in that it generally satisfies these criteria. The big variable is the weather and particularly the wind where the luck of the draw may play a massive part but that has always been a part of golf.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Get old and you will understand about forward tees.

> > > > > Big 50 for me next year...I play with guys in their 70s who max out at 150 yards and teenagers who smash irons past my driver...we all play the same course off the same tees and it’s handicap that lets us all compete with each other. My point is, if a course is properly designed, you will be rewarded for good shots and punished for bad. Courses that punish you for not being long enough and require different sets of tees to compensate are poorly designed.

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > 50 is not even in the conversation about old, unless you're 22. A course cannot be designed that plays the same for a guy who drives 200 vs a guy who drives it 250 without the use of different tees. If you don't believe me, play your approach club off the tee, then play your driving club for your next shot. To topic, there was a lot of gouging today.

> > > If the guy driving it 250 is not straight, the guy hitting it 200 but straight wins every time on a well-designed course...just saying.

> > >

> > > My home course is 6,100 off the tips, par 71...course record is 65. Yet the course is enjoyable for scratch players and 28 handicappers alike...all playing off the same tees. If you’re not straight your dead...if you’re straight and long you can score well.

> > >

> >

> > Interesting. So, do you hit your 200 club or your 250 club straighter? 200 club, right?

> >

> > So, I trust you must never hit a 250 club on that perfectly designed course, right?

> >

> > The only reason to ever, ever, hit the less accurate club, that a 200 yard club would beat “every time” on that perfectly designed course would be to, what? Try to create a distance advantage or something? Nah, because 200 wins every time if the design is good. 250 is less accurate, so if the design is good, it’s worse. You must save a fortune on drivers and woods!

> >

> The point is that y’all seem to be missing is that if the guy can hit 250 yards and straight, he will win every time. But how often can he pull it off on a tight course? That’s the risk/reward of a well-designed golf hole. If he can smash it anywhere and still have a shot at the green, where’s the challenge?

>

It’s almost as if you’re saying: you can try to hit it longer to create a distance advantage, but if you don’t hit it straight, you might not get that advantage.

We definitely don’t have that here in the United States. Every 200-yard hitter can bomb it OB in regular amateur play, and still wedge it onto the green from Mary Lou’s flower garden. It’s not like in the Royal A, where they would have to take a penalty. Poor designs.

BiggErn · July 23, 2019

> @"Ashley Schaeffer" said:

> > @mahonie said:

> > > @"Ashley Schaeffer" said:

> > > > @mahonie said:

> > > > > @farmer said:

> > > > > > @mahonie said:

> > > > > > > @farmer said:

> > > > > > > > @mahonie said:

> > > > > > > > > @farmer said:

> > > > > > > > > > @2bGood said:

> > > > > > > > > > > @farmer said:

> > > > > > > > > > > I'm probably in the minority, but I would not enjoy playing a course that beats me up every time I play. If RP had really severe greens, it would be nearly unplayable for just-a-guy type players.

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > RP is seriously tough. I played it last fall and shot 93 (after ESC!!!) off a 4 handicap. The wind was howling and missing fairways or green was VERY costly to your score as it often resulted in a lost ball as we did not have spotters.

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > I would love to play it again in more friendly weather and see if I could break 80, but on that day the course was way more challenge than I had game.

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > Now that is tough, which makes my point. I would need to play forward tees, but even from that length, I just can't see the fun.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > I don’t get this thing about forward tees. Typically in the UK you have 2 sets of tees for men (daily play and competition tees) and a set of ladies tees. Some courses may have junior tees. Unless you’re playing in a competition, you play off the daily play tees.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > The trick of good course design is to make the course playable without having to resort to several tees. Each hole should be a challenge but should also reward good shots...Royal Portrush seems to be typical of links golf in that it generally satisfies these criteria. The big variable is the weather and particularly the wind where the luck of the draw may play a massive part but that has always been a part of golf.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Get old and you will understand about forward tees.

> > > > > > Big 50 for me next year...I play with guys in their 70s who max out at 150 yards and teenagers who smash irons past my driver...we all play the same course off the same tees and it’s handicap that lets us all compete with each other. My point is, if a course is properly designed, you will be rewarded for good shots and punished for bad. Courses that punish you for not being long enough and require different sets of tees to compensate are poorly designed.

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > 50 is not even in the conversation about old, unless you're 22. A course cannot be designed that plays the same for a guy who drives 200 vs a guy who drives it 250 without the use of different tees. If you don't believe me, play your approach club off the tee, then play your driving club for your next shot. To topic, there was a lot of gouging today.

> > > > If the guy driving it 250 is not straight, the guy hitting it 200 but straight wins every time on a well-designed course...just saying.

> > > >

> > > > My home course is 6,100 off the tips, par 71...course record is 65. Yet the course is enjoyable for scratch players and 28 handicappers alike...all playing off the same tees. If you’re not straight your dead...if you’re straight and long you can score well.

> > > >

> > >

> > > Interesting. So, do you hit your 200 club or your 250 club straighter? 200 club, right?

> > >

> > > So, I trust you must never hit a 250 club on that perfectly designed course, right?

> > >

> > > The only reason to ever, ever, hit the less accurate club, that a 200 yard club would beat “every time” on that perfectly designed course would be to, what? Try to create a distance advantage or something? Nah, because 200 wins every time if the design is good. 250 is less accurate, so if the design is good, it’s worse. You must save a fortune on drivers and woods!

> > >

> > The point is that y’all seem to be missing is that if the guy can hit 250 yards and straight, he will win every time. But how often can he pull it off on a tight course? That’s the risk/reward of a well-designed golf hole. If he can smash it anywhere and still have a shot at the green, where’s the challenge?

> >

>

> It’s almost as if you’re saying: you can try to hit it longer to create a distance advantage, but if you don’t hit it straight, you might not get that advantage.

>

> We definitely don’t have that here in the United States. Every 200-yard hitter can bomb it OB in regular amateur play, and still wedge it onto the green from Mary Lou’s flower garden. It’s not like in the Royal A, where they would have to take a penalty. Poor designs.

>

You mean having to bank a shot off the clubhouse a foot beyond the 18th green, or drive over the corner of a hotel, or play from gravel road right beside the green is a poor design?

Ashley Schaeffer · July 23, 2019

> @BiggErn said:

> > @"Ashley Schaeffer" said:

> > > @mahonie said:

> > > > @"Ashley Schaeffer" said:

> > > > > @mahonie said:

> > > > > > @farmer said:

> > > > > > > @mahonie said:

> > > > > > > > @farmer said:

> > > > > > > > > @mahonie said:

> > > > > > > > > > @farmer said:

> > > > > > > > > > > @2bGood said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > @farmer said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > I'm probably in the minority, but I would not enjoy playing a course that beats me up every time I play. If RP had really severe greens, it would be nearly unplayable for just-a-guy type players.

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > RP is seriously tough. I played it last fall and shot 93 (after ESC!!!) off a 4 handicap. The wind was howling and missing fairways or green was VERY costly to your score as it often resulted in a lost ball as we did not have spotters.

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > I would love to play it again in more friendly weather and see if I could break 80, but on that day the course was way more challenge than I had game.

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > Now that is tough, which makes my point. I would need to play forward tees, but even from that length, I just can't see the fun.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > I don’t get this thing about forward tees. Typically in the UK you have 2 sets of tees for men (daily play and competition tees) and a set of ladies tees. Some courses may have junior tees. Unless you’re playing in a competition, you play off the daily play tees.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > The trick of good course design is to make the course playable without having to resort to several tees. Each hole should be a challenge but should also reward good shots...Royal Portrush seems to be typical of links golf in that it generally satisfies these criteria. The big variable is the weather and particularly the wind where the luck of the draw may play a massive part but that has always been a part of golf.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > Get old and you will understand about forward tees.

> > > > > > > Big 50 for me next year...I play with guys in their 70s who max out at 150 yards and teenagers who smash irons past my driver...we all play the same course off the same tees and it’s handicap that lets us all compete with each other. My point is, if a course is properly designed, you will be rewarded for good shots and punished for bad. Courses that punish you for not being long enough and require different sets of tees to compensate are poorly designed.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > > 50 is not even in the conversation about old, unless you're 22. A course cannot be designed that plays the same for a guy who drives 200 vs a guy who drives it 250 without the use of different tees. If you don't believe me, play your approach club off the tee, then play your driving club for your next shot. To topic, there was a lot of gouging today.

> > > > > If the guy driving it 250 is not straight, the guy hitting it 200 but straight wins every time on a well-designed course...just saying.

> > > > >

> > > > > My home course is 6,100 off the tips, par 71...course record is 65. Yet the course is enjoyable for scratch players and 28 handicappers alike...all playing off the same tees. If you’re not straight your dead...if you’re straight and long you can score well.

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > Interesting. So, do you hit your 200 club or your 250 club straighter? 200 club, right?

> > > >

> > > > So, I trust you must never hit a 250 club on that perfectly designed course, right?

> > > >

> > > > The only reason to ever, ever, hit the less accurate club, that a 200 yard club would beat “every time” on that perfectly designed course would be to, what? Try to create a distance advantage or something? Nah, because 200 wins every time if the design is good. 250 is less accurate, so if the design is good, it’s worse. You must save a fortune on drivers and woods!

> > > >

> > > The point is that y’all seem to be missing is that if the guy can hit 250 yards and straight, he will win every time. But how often can he pull it off on a tight course? That’s the risk/reward of a well-designed golf hole. If he can smash it anywhere and still have a shot at the green, where’s the challenge?

> > >

> >

> > It’s almost as if you’re saying: you can try to hit it longer to create a distance advantage, but if you don’t hit it straight, you might not get that advantage.

> >

> > We definitely don’t have that here in the United States. Every 200-yard hitter can bomb it OB in regular amateur play, and still wedge it onto the green from Mary Lou’s flower garden. It’s not like in the Royal A, where they would have to take a penalty. Poor designs.

> >

>

> You mean having to bank a shot off the clubhouse a foot beyond the 18th green, or drive over the corner of a hotel, or play from gravel road right beside the green is a poor design?

No way! It’s far superior to anything we have here. Any 200-yard hitter can compete if he hits it straight. Right? Ugh.

Bingo1976 · July 23, 2019

> @BiggErn said:

> > @mahonie said:

> > > @farmer said:

> > > > @mahonie said:

> > > > > @farmer said:

> > > > > > @2bGood said:

> > > > > > > @farmer said:

> > > > > > > I'm probably in the minority, but I would not enjoy playing a course that beats me up every time I play. If RP had really severe greens, it would be nearly unplayable for just-a-guy type players.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > RP is seriously tough. I played it last fall and shot 93 (after ESC!!!) off a 4 handicap. The wind was howling and missing fairways or green was VERY costly to your score as it often resulted in a lost ball as we did not have spotters.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > I would love to play it again in more friendly weather and see if I could break 80, but on that day the course was way more challenge than I had game.

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > Now that is tough, which makes my point. I would need to play forward tees, but even from that length, I just can't see the fun.

> > > >

> > > > I don’t get this thing about forward tees. Typically in the UK you have 2 sets of tees for men (daily play and competition tees) and a set of ladies tees. Some courses may have junior tees. Unless you’re playing in a competition, you play off the daily play tees.

> > > >

> > > > The trick of good course design is to make the course playable without having to resort to several tees. Each hole should be a challenge but should also reward good shots...Royal Portrush seems to be typical of links golf in that it generally satisfies these criteria. The big variable is the weather and particularly the wind where the luck of the draw may play a massive part but that has always been a part of golf.

> > >

> > > Get old and you will understand about forward tees.

> > Big 50 for me next year...I play with guys in their 70s who max out at 150 yards and teenagers who smash irons past my driver...we all play the same course off the same tees and it’s handicap that lets us all compete with each other. My point is, if a course is properly designed, you will be rewarded for good shots and punished for bad. Courses that punish you for not being long enough and require different sets of tees to compensate are poorly designed.

> >

>

> What person that maxes out at 150 would enjoy playing a 450 yard par 4? How do they play 200+ yard par 3s? Having multiple sets of tees to accommodate for various handicaps and distances makes complete sense.

It seems to be the difference in how Brits and Americans approach their golf - when I grew up in the UK, we would all play the same tees and let the handicaps sort it out - if that meant you needed 3 shots to get on a par 4 then your handicap would reflect it. You would not have a set off tees 50 yards further up in most circumstances - bearing in mind that a lot of UK courses are walking courses so the tees are by the greens and going back further is often impractical. If you were a very short hitter then you could always use the ladies or junior tees (but not in a competition). Most courses are designed to have fewer forced carries as a result. In the US and other parts of the world where there is more real estate, or the course has buggies in mind, then it's more practical to have a more diverse set off teeing areas - as a result, there also seems to be more emphasis on forced carries. The issue you can have is when a group are trying to play tees that are totally unsuitable for them...

Ashley Schaeffer · July 23, 2019

> @Bingo1976 said:

> > @BiggErn said:

> > > @mahonie said:

> > > > @farmer said:

> > > > > @mahonie said:

> > > > > > @farmer said:

> > > > > > > @2bGood said:

> > > > > > > > @farmer said:

> > > > > > > > I'm probably in the minority, but I would not enjoy playing a course that beats me up every time I play. If RP had really severe greens, it would be nearly unplayable for just-a-guy type players.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > RP is seriously tough. I played it last fall and shot 93 (after ESC!!!) off a 4 handicap. The wind was howling and missing fairways or green was VERY costly to your score as it often resulted in a lost ball as we did not have spotters.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > I would love to play it again in more friendly weather and see if I could break 80, but on that day the course was way more challenge than I had game.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Now that is tough, which makes my point. I would need to play forward tees, but even from that length, I just can't see the fun.

> > > > >

> > > > > I don’t get this thing about forward tees. Typically in the UK you have 2 sets of tees for men (daily play and competition tees) and a set of ladies tees. Some courses may have junior tees. Unless you’re playing in a competition, you play off the daily play tees.

> > > > >

> > > > > The trick of good course design is to make the course playable without having to resort to several tees. Each hole should be a challenge but should also reward good shots...Royal Portrush seems to be typical of links golf in that it generally satisfies these criteria. The big variable is the weather and particularly the wind where the luck of the draw may play a massive part but that has always been a part of golf.

> > > >

> > > > Get old and you will understand about forward tees.

> > > Big 50 for me next year...I play with guys in their 70s who max out at 150 yards and teenagers who smash irons past my driver...we all play the same course off the same tees and it’s handicap that lets us all compete with each other. My point is, if a course is properly designed, you will be rewarded for good shots and punished for bad. Courses that punish you for not being long enough and require different sets of tees to compensate are poorly designed.

> > >

> >

> > What person that maxes out at 150 would enjoy playing a 450 yard par 4? How do they play 200+ yard par 3s? Having multiple sets of tees to accommodate for various handicaps and distances makes complete sense.

>

> It seems to be the difference in how Brits and Americans approach their golf - when I grew up in the UK, we would all play the same tees and let the handicaps sort it out - if that meant you needed 3 shots to get on a par 4 then your handicap would reflect it. You would not have a set off tees 50 yards further up in most circumstances - bearing in mind that a lot of UK courses are walking courses so the tees are by the greens and going back further is often impractical. If you were a very short hitter then you could always use the ladies or junior tees (but not in a competition). Most courses are designed to have fewer forced carries as a result. In the US and other parts of the world where there is more real estate, or the course has buggies in mind, then it's more practical to have a more diverse set off teeing areas - as a result, there also seems to be more emphasis on forced carries. The issue you can have is when a group are trying to play tees that are totally unsuitable for them...

>

So, the shorter hitters could use the shorter tees available there in the UK, right? Seems totally reasonable. What’s all this nonsense about multiple tees here in the United States? What a farce!

MidwestGolfBum · July 23, 2019

> @mahonie said:

> > @BiggErn said:

> > > @mahonie said:

> > > > @BiggErn said:

> > > > > @mahonie said:

> > > > > > @farmer said:

> > > > > > > @mahonie said:

> > > > > > > > @farmer said:

> > > > > > > > > @2bGood said:

> > > > > > > > > > @farmer said:

> > > > > > > > > > I'm probably in the minority, but I would not enjoy playing a course that beats me up every time I play. If RP had really severe greens, it would be nearly unplayable for just-a-guy type players.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > RP is seriously tough. I played it last fall and shot 93 (after ESC!!!) off a 4 handicap. The wind was howling and missing fairways or green was VERY costly to your score as it often resulted in a lost ball as we did not have spotters.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > I would love to play it again in more friendly weather and see if I could break 80, but on that day the course was way more challenge than I had game.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > Now that is tough, which makes my point. I would need to play forward tees, but even from that length, I just can't see the fun.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > I don’t get this thing about forward tees. Typically in the UK you have 2 sets of tees for men (daily play and competition tees) and a set of ladies tees. Some courses may have junior tees. Unless you’re playing in a competition, you play off the daily play tees.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > The trick of good course design is to make the course playable without having to resort to several tees. Each hole should be a challenge but should also reward good shots...Royal Portrush seems to be typical of links golf in that it generally satisfies these criteria. The big variable is the weather and particularly the wind where the luck of the draw may play a massive part but that has always been a part of golf.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Get old and you will understand about forward tees.

> > > > > Big 50 for me next year...I play with guys in their 70s who max out at 150 yards and teenagers who smash irons past my driver...we all play the same course off the same tees and it’s handicap that lets us all compete with each other. My point is, if a course is properly designed, you will be rewarded for good shots and punished for bad. Courses that punish you for not being long enough and require different sets of tees to compensate are poorly designed.

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > What person that maxes out at 150 would enjoy playing a 450 yard par 4? How do they play 200+ yard par 3s? Having multiple sets of tees to accommodate for various handicaps and distances makes complete sense.

> > >

> > > Longest par 4 at my course is 441 yards and is rightly recognised as the hardest hole on the course. Low handicappers are happy to walk off with a par, those that are distance-challenged play it as a par 5 and are happy with that knowing that their handicap will give them a nett par.

> > >

> > > Longest par 3 is 195 yards but it’s uphill and plays more like 210. Granted, some players can’t reach unless they really catch one...having said that, hitting that green is an achievement for anyone.

> > >

> > > Question: If your 4-ball are all playing off different tees how the **** do you score fairly? Do you do it by handicap or by distance of longest club? I really am intrigued.

> >

> > We don’t play from different tees. We try to balance it out as best we can so the shortest hitting guy has a chance to hit some good shots and have a good time. It still requires everyone else to hit good shots....imagine that. Depending on who I play with I sometimes play from the tips, sometimes from the next set up, and depending on the course and number of tees maybe another set up. That usually only leaves the senior and ladies tees that I obviously never play. When I enter my score and tees played it does the math for me and I only use HC as a personal measuring stick for my improvement and state of my game not something to balance out the score with my playing partners.

>

> I can see how that works.

>

> My golf is a bit different in that games are either club competitions, inter-club competitions or ‘money’ games with friends in a golf society. In all cases, handicap strictly comes into play and is how all games are notionally played on a level playing field.

To that same point, there are times where we will play money games where guys are playing from different sets of tees. That's where the slope and rating come in to play, as it's actually quite easy to figure out how to adjust handicaps when this comes up, even if it is very rare. At my club, this doesn't happen often, outside of different foursomes who are competing in an event against other foursomes who prefer to play a shorter or longer tee. It happens to work out well at our club that as you go back from our member tees you add 2 for the next set back and 2 more from the championship tees. It's still equitable, as that's part of what the rating and slope are there for, and nobody has ever had an issue with that. In the end, you still have to hit all the shots and post a number.

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