Lets take a closer look at distance off the Tee....

[clevited]

> @LICC said:

 

> No, we don't agree. It is a completely baseless assertion. Someone above posted their experience that is contrary to your speculations.

 

Serious question. Why are you such a hostile poster? Is it just this subject rubs you wrong, or are you like this in every post you do? You are single handedly moving this discussion into a very negative direction. Can you "try" to discuss and maybe add to this conversation more rather than make attempts to annoy so many people with your condescending and negative tone? We had quite respectful discussion for a long time but you alone have really stirred the pot. We all get heated up here and there about things and perhaps post in a manner we shouldn't from time to time but you are doing it consistently and often in several posts at a time. You are literally refuting any and all evidence that counter your claims. Why not discuss rather than insult? I think that would gain you some respect that you certainly don't have from me or many others on here.

 

Probably a mistake of me to reply to you again on here but I can't help but try and help keep this discussion as civil as possible so it doesn't end up like the last one. I think I would have to come to the conclusion that if you remain hostile, condescending and negative that you just want to see the world burn by trolling whenever possible.

[LICC]

> @clevited said:

> > @LICC said:

>

> > No, we don't agree. It is a completely baseless assertion. Someone above posted their experience that is contrary to your speculations.

>

> Serious question. Why are you such a hostile poster? Is it just this subject rubs you wrong, or are you like this in every post you do? You are single handedly moving this discussion into a very negative direction. Can you "try" to discuss and maybe add to this conversation more rather than make attempts to annoy so many people with your condescending and negative tone? We had quite respectful discussion for a long time but you alone have really stirred the pot. We all get heated up here and there about things and perhaps post in a manner we shouldn't from time to time but you are doing it consistently and often in several posts at a time. You are literally refuting any and all evidence that counter your claims. Why not discuss rather than insult? I think that would gain you some respect that you certainly don't have from me or many others on here.

>

> Probably a mistake of me to reply to you again on here but I can't help but try and help keep this discussion as civil as possible so it doesn't end up like the last one. I think I would have to come to the conclusion that if you remain hostile, condescending and negative that you just want to see the world burn by trolling whenever possible.

 

When posts are as obtuse and condescending as yours, you should expect some strong reaction. I'm not hostile at all. And we have about the same number of Golfwrx posts, you have 81 likes and I have almost 550. I don't seem to have a problem of people generally respecting my comments.

[Ashley Schaeffer]

> @LICC said:

> > @clevited said:

> > I still can't believe the concept of fitness can make significant increases in swing speed and therefore distance is being debated. I swear that those of you that don't believe that, are also flat earthers.

> >

> > I have experience in this, have read about it, researched it and tried to understand it. Does it make me an expert, no, but I think I have more factual knowledge that most if not all of those saying fitness doesn't increase distance.

> >

> > Fitness first of all, has many forms. There is the cardiovascular which is just good for your health in general but it also helps with walking 72 holes in a weekend tournament and not fading physically. There is flexibility you can obtain through fitness regimens which can help a person make a longer backswing if they so choose, better wrist hinge, more hip turn etc to possibly create more swing speed and therefore more distance. There is strength training you can do. Adding muscle doesn't necessary increase speed out right, but it does allow you to add more speed and be able to control it. You need stability, strong hands, strong wrists, strong forearms to swing a club north of 115-120 and do it repeatedly and well. That can come from fitness.

> >

> > I know personally that I am at my current physical limit speed wise (aka potential distance wise) and I would need to hit the gym with purposeful exercise and weight training to reach a new limit. I would need to strengthen my legs primarily, my core, my hands, my forearms and wrists for sure, to be able to reach a higher ceiling. It is not easy to exactly quantify how much can be gained from fitness efforts alone but it can most definitely be substantial.

> >

> > I turn your attention to the long drive guys on tv. They aren't all generally very muscular for no reason. They are all trying to reach their bodies limits and you have to have a good fitness program to do that. Take John Daly for instance. He had speed from both technique and genetics no doubt but you can bet he also got that from getting golf fit through just swinging hard. If he wanted to get to another level, he would have to lose weight, and add strength. He probably wouldn't benefit from much added flexibility but if he did work on that, he could make his swing even longer if he wanted.

> >

> > I just can't believe that those of you so against this idea are that naive. You can't possibly. Yes, equipment, swing technique, optimization are a huge part of what can help increase a person's distance but so is purposeful golf related fitness (working out so that you can run a mile in 5 minutes isn't necessarily going to do anything for your swing speed, nor is just bulking up and becoming very muscular, it has to be specific to golf and there are a lot of known ways to improve your swing speed via very specific fitness programs).

> >

> >

>

> Stop with that flat-earth silliness. You have ZERO results-based facts to show that anyone on the Tour added any significant distance by adding a fitness/workout regiment.

 

Again, I believe it's difficult to find examples:

(a) because almost all of them have golf-specific workout routines before making it on tour. It's basically a modern requirement for most; and

(b) anyone who makes it on tour being out of shape is very unlikely to suddenly get ripped.

 

[BarnbougleDunes03]

> @LICC said:

> > @clevited said:

> > I still can't believe the concept of fitness can make significant increases in swing speed and therefore distance is being debated. I swear that those of you that don't believe that, are also flat earthers.

> >

> > I have experience in this, have read about it, researched it and tried to understand it. Does it make me an expert, no, but I think I have more factual knowledge that most if not all of those saying fitness doesn't increase distance.

> >

> > Fitness first of all, has many forms. There is the cardiovascular which is just good for your health in general but it also helps with walking 72 holes in a weekend tournament and not fading physically. There is flexibility you can obtain through fitness regimens which can help a person make a longer backswing if they so choose, better wrist hinge, more hip turn etc to possibly create more swing speed and therefore more distance. There is strength training you can do. Adding muscle doesn't necessary increase speed out right, but it does allow you to add more speed and be able to control it. You need stability, strong hands, strong wrists, strong forearms to swing a club north of 115-120 and do it repeatedly and well. That can come from fitness.

> >

> > I know personally that I am at my current physical limit speed wise (aka potential distance wise) and I would need to hit the gym with purposeful exercise and weight training to reach a new limit. I would need to strengthen my legs primarily, my core, my hands, my forearms and wrists for sure, to be able to reach a higher ceiling. It is not easy to exactly quantify how much can be gained from fitness efforts alone but it can most definitely be substantial.

> >

> > I turn your attention to the long drive guys on tv. They aren't all generally very muscular for no reason. They are all trying to reach their bodies limits and you have to have a good fitness program to do that. Take John Daly for instance. He had speed from both technique and genetics no doubt but you can bet he also got that from getting golf fit through just swinging hard. If he wanted to get to another level, he would have to lose weight, and add strength. He probably wouldn't benefit from much added flexibility but if he did work on that, he could make his swing even longer if he wanted.

> >

> > I just can't believe that those of you so against this idea are that naive. You can't possibly. Yes, equipment, swing technique, optimization are a huge part of what can help increase a person's distance but so is purposeful golf related fitness (working out so that you can run a mile in 5 minutes isn't necessarily going to do anything for your swing speed, nor is just bulking up and becoming very muscular, it has to be specific to golf and there are a lot of known ways to improve your swing speed via very specific fitness programs).

> >

> >

>

> Stop with that flat-earth silliness. You have ZERO results-based facts to show that anyone on the Tour added any significant distance by adding a fitness/workout regiment.

 

Do you understand what a summary or conclusion is? When Denis Pugh & others provide a clear definitive statement of fact specifically on the fitness/distance topic and reply “Fitness plays a massive part” in their distance gains, they do so summarizing / concluding a mountain of prior “results-based facts”.

 

Just like when a doctor says “It is cancer” this is their conclusion or summary to you which is based on a mountain of prior “results-based facts”. They don’t have to cite every single result or test for you to take their word on the subject. Come on now, this shouldn’t be hard to grasp.

[BarnbougleDunes03]

> @LICC said:

> > @clevited said:

> > > @LICC said:

> >

> > > No, we don't agree. It is a completely baseless assertion. Someone above posted their experience that is contrary to your speculations.

> >

> > Serious question. Why are you such a hostile poster? Is it just this subject rubs you wrong, or are you like this in every post you do? You are single handedly moving this discussion into a very negative direction. Can you "try" to discuss and maybe add to this conversation more rather than make attempts to annoy so many people with your condescending and negative tone? We had quite respectful discussion for a long time but you alone have really stirred the pot. We all get heated up here and there about things and perhaps post in a manner we shouldn't from time to time but you are doing it consistently and often in several posts at a time. You are literally refuting any and all evidence that counter your claims. Why not discuss rather than insult? I think that would gain you some respect that you certainly don't have from me or many others on here.

> >

> > Probably a mistake of me to reply to you again on here but I can't help but try and help keep this discussion as civil as possible so it doesn't end up like the last one. I think I would have to come to the conclusion that if you remain hostile, condescending and negative that you just want to see the world burn by trolling whenever possible.

>

> When posts are as obtuse and condescending as yours, you should expect some strong reaction. I'm not hostile at all. And we have about the same number of Golfwrx posts, you have 81 likes and I have almost 550. I don't seem to have a problem of people generally respecting my comments.

 

“I’m not hostile at all”

 

LICC you have 31 reports of ABUSE & SPAM, only 1 for Clevited - that says it all.

 

And those are “results-based facts” ;)

[LICC]

> @"Ashley Schaeffer" said:

> > @LICC said:

> > > @clevited said:

> > > I still can't believe the concept of fitness can make significant increases in swing speed and therefore distance is being debated. I swear that those of you that don't believe that, are also flat earthers.

> > >

> > > I have experience in this, have read about it, researched it and tried to understand it. Does it make me an expert, no, but I think I have more factual knowledge that most if not all of those saying fitness doesn't increase distance.

> > >

> > > Fitness first of all, has many forms. There is the cardiovascular which is just good for your health in general but it also helps with walking 72 holes in a weekend tournament and not fading physically. There is flexibility you can obtain through fitness regimens which can help a person make a longer backswing if they so choose, better wrist hinge, more hip turn etc to possibly create more swing speed and therefore more distance. There is strength training you can do. Adding muscle doesn't necessary increase speed out right, but it does allow you to add more speed and be able to control it. You need stability, strong hands, strong wrists, strong forearms to swing a club north of 115-120 and do it repeatedly and well. That can come from fitness.

> > >

> > > I know personally that I am at my current physical limit speed wise (aka potential distance wise) and I would need to hit the gym with purposeful exercise and weight training to reach a new limit. I would need to strengthen my legs primarily, my core, my hands, my forearms and wrists for sure, to be able to reach a higher ceiling. It is not easy to exactly quantify how much can be gained from fitness efforts alone but it can most definitely be substantial.

> > >

> > > I turn your attention to the long drive guys on tv. They aren't all generally very muscular for no reason. They are all trying to reach their bodies limits and you have to have a good fitness program to do that. Take John Daly for instance. He had speed from both technique and genetics no doubt but you can bet he also got that from getting golf fit through just swinging hard. If he wanted to get to another level, he would have to lose weight, and add strength. He probably wouldn't benefit from much added flexibility but if he did work on that, he could make his swing even longer if he wanted.

> > >

> > > I just can't believe that those of you so against this idea are that naive. You can't possibly. Yes, equipment, swing technique, optimization are a huge part of what can help increase a person's distance but so is purposeful golf related fitness (working out so that you can run a mile in 5 minutes isn't necessarily going to do anything for your swing speed, nor is just bulking up and becoming very muscular, it has to be specific to golf and there are a lot of known ways to improve your swing speed via very specific fitness programs).

> > >

> > >

> >

> > Stop with that flat-earth silliness. You have ZERO results-based facts to show that anyone on the Tour added any significant distance by adding a fitness/workout regiment.

>

> Again, I believe it's difficult to find examples:

> (a) because almost all of them have golf-specific workout routines before making it on tour. It's basically a modern requirement for most; and

> (b) anyone who makes it on tour being out of shape is very unlikely to suddenly get ripped.

>

 

Scott Stallings. In 2018 incorporated Cross Fit workouts and lost 50 pounds. And he went from an out-of-shape Tour player to a very fit player. Zero impact on his driving distance.

[mahonie]

> @bladehunter said:

> > @BarnbougleDunes03 said:

> > > @LICC said:

> > > > @BarnbougleDunes03 said:

> > > > > @LICC said:

> > > > > > @BarnbougleDunes03 said:

> > > > > > > @gvogel said:

> > > > > > > > @BarnbougleDunes03 said:

> > > > > > > > > @LICC said:

> > > > > > > > > > @BarnbougleDunes03 said:

> > > > > > > > > > > @bladehunter said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > @BarnbougleDunes03 said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > > @bladehunter said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > @Titleist99 said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @Bebsport678 said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > In the OP, the number of years that Daly was the distance leader is astounding.

> > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > The fact that John Daly was hitting it over 300 yards years ago wasn't a problem, no one believed that he would make classic courses obsolete. Now that more players can bomb it 300 ocassionally the traditionalist thinks that the sky is falling...

> > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > Nope again. The issue is that over half the ones hitting it 300 now , wouldn’t in Johns day. They aren’t all new john Daly’s. They are some Tom kites hitting it 300 plus too. What we want is a return of skill for the distance.

> > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > To your comment “What we want is a return of skill for the distance.” But hitting a ball great distance and with accuracy IS a skill and it hasn't gone anywhere. The tech being used today is virtually all the same and the longer hitters of yesteryear (300 yards) would still be the longer hitters of today (320 yards) with todays equipment. And due to basic physics, the longer you hit it (320 vs 300) the more accurate & skillful a player has to be. Hitting 320 today accurately is a hard skill to learn, it’s why players like Tiger & Day have often struggled compared to the games longest/straightest hitters, and they all play the same equipment remember.

> > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > But not everyone today (like yesteryear) can hit the same distances or as accurately. For some players they gain their distance through their greater athleticism (be it fitness, training, age, genetics and/or a combination of them all), while others gain it more through efficient technique alongside those other factors.

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > I just don’t buy the workout equals distance point. Sure you can polish speed. But the DJ , Rory etc are born with what they have. No other way to explain how a tiny guy like Rory hits it so far. Gym time is about flexibility and preventing injury. In other words Maintenance

> > > > > > > > > > > as they age.

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > Sure. Hitting it far is a skill. But I don’t believe it’s near has much of one now as before. 300 with persimmon is next level talent. 300 with today’s ball and driver ? Please the am world is full of guys who can control that.

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > I’m talking relative distance. My issue isn’t with the long hitters. It’s the medium and short knockers that are keeping up. I believe they have a much easier time keeping up now vs in days past.

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > As to my post above, some players lean more to genetics for their greater distance gains, others to fitness & training, while others lean on developing better technique, some do all of it - but to hit the ball far AND accurate also comes down to the inclusion of great technique, and no one is born with technique or accuracy, it’s developed. Justin Rose has talked about increasing his distance due to increased physical training, Rory has also admitted to increasing distance & greater control through the shot due to undertaking his professional fitness program years back, and many more players have done and do the same. The fact is golf today is a more professional sport top to bottom than ever before and thus attracting and refining more athletes and developing more players into better athletes - even Tiger has referred to this reality today.

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > Sure, 300 yesteryear was next level but today 330-350 is also next level, and there are still many players who can’t hit it 300 today. But for all those that can keep up is a core reason why it’s harder to win today than before.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > Find me three examples where someone gained materially more distance due to fitness training. Where you have the person's driving distance before they did fitness training and the number after and it was materially longer. I doubt you can do it.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > From my quick look I can’t quote exact before & after distances that you specifically ask for, but all 3 players mentioned below have openly talked about increased distance through fitness and it’s researchable if you care to look.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > Here’s a quick quote from Rory’s Fitness Doctor:

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > "As his training continued we focused on injury-proofing and increases in strength and power. That translates into other aspects that are important to him, which is greater shot distance and greater control of the club head.”

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > I remember clearly Rory Mcilroy’s interview on this very topic in 2014 after his 2nd major win that year talking to Skysports about the role of his fitness program over recent years and the impact it’s had on his increased distance and control through the high speed driver swing. Rory also mentioned that these increased distance gains allowed him to not swing 100% every time which also allowed him further greater control.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > A similar case watching an interview with Justin Rose & Sean Foley a few years back talking about how his fitness program had helped increase his distance.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > Tiger Woods has also talked many times about the impact of better athletes & fitness in the game and it’s impact on distance today compared to early 2000s.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > What do you expect Rory to say? He worked hard to make his body leaner and fitter. He used the fitness as a psychological edge, and he was willing to talk about it post championship. However, he didn't gain much distance; he was born with distance.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Rory’s always been very honest with his answers, why question him now? Couldn’t his answer simply be the truth of the matter that’s been a constant process of reshaping his body since 2010 increasing it’s strength, power and flexibility?

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Is Rory’s Fitness Doctor ‘making it all up’ also?

> > > > > > Is Molinari’s Swing Coach also ‘making it all up’?

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Or could the answers from different players, coaches, trainers just be giving their honest answers on the matter? Seems a bit ‘conspiracy theory’ to think they all planned to make something up, no?

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Or could it be that their answers simply counter you basic premise and it doesn’t sit very well with some of you? I think that's more likely.

> > > > >

> > > > > The facts support our view. Rory didn't gain distance after beginning a fitness regimen. Molinari made major swing changes. All you are pointing to are fluffy statements about working out.

> > > >

> > > > “The facts support our view”

> > > >

> > > > If Denis Pugh had replied saying “Fitness plays a small part” or “Swing changes plays a massive part”… then yes the facts would support your view - but he DIDN’T, did he.

> > > >

> > > > So explain exactly how Denis Pugh’s own comments stating “Fitness plays a massive part” in their distance gains “supports your view”?

> > > >

> > > > Mental Gymnastics commence on 1.2.3…

> > >

> > > Ah, yes, Denis Pugh's statement to you in a text message. Sure ...

> > >

> > > Molinari's own words:

> > >

> > > Players such as Rory McIlroy and Cameron Champ are able to generate whip-like action in the downswing by firing their hips toward the target independently of their torsos. Molinari says he’d love to generate power the same way, but he physically can’t. “I had to find a different kind of power move,” he says. In the past, his swing speed was largely created by his hands and arms—a big reason he averaged only about 280 yards off the tee—but now his trunk is much more involved. “My right shoulder used to stay back as I swung down, still close to where it was at address,” he says. “Then the club would race out in front of me. Now I’m really trying to feel a lot more shoulder rotation in the downswing—especially the right shoulder [above]. I feel like it’s pushing down toward the ball and also toward the target.”

> > >

> > > Looking back at his former swing, Molinari says he was probably using only 70 to 75 percent of his potential effort. “Since that time, I’m putting a lot more energy into it,” he says. “Don’t get me wrong, it’s not like I’m swinging out of my shoes. I’m just maximizing what I’ve got.”

> >

> > “Sure”

> >

> > Why do think everyone’s lying? First it’s Rory, then his Fitness Doctor, then Molinari, then Denis Pugh his swing coach, now me. Why is everything a conspiracy theory with you?

> >

> > For the record Denis Pugh replied to my tweet yesterday, go check it out if you know how to use Twitter.

> >

> > And to add greater context to your quote, read the following quote:

> >

> > “Molinari has spent a lot of time with performance coach Dave Alred getting stronger and more flexible. Their work is evident in the power Molinari can generate with his legs, Pugh says. “Power doesn’t come from technique, it comes from physique,” he says. “The goal was to get him as strong as possible to create more power in his swing. But we had to make sure his technique didn’t block that newfound energy from being utilized.”

> >

> > Lets read the “goal” again…“The goal was to get him as strong as possible to create more power in his swing.” The technique (swing changes) they were working on alongside was to ensure it didn’t “block” that “newfound energy”.

> >

> > Technique = Flow to Power

> > Power = Distance

> >

> > This is why Denis is one of the worlds leading coaches and having knowledge of all the data points underpinning Molinari’s increased distance why he stats as a matter of FACT “Fitness plays a massive part” in their distance gains.

>

> Lol. I’m out of this after this comment. This thread is quite possibly dumber than me.

>

>

> A quip bragging about being a twitter user does not prop up your argument for greater intelligence.

 

Having sparred with Denis on Twitter on several occasions, my only conclusion is that he’s an idiot and Molinari would be far better off with a better coach!

[BarnbougleDunes03]

> @LICC said:

> > @"Ashley Schaeffer" said:

> > > @LICC said:

> > > > @clevited said:

> > > > I still can't believe the concept of fitness can make significant increases in swing speed and therefore distance is being debated. I swear that those of you that don't believe that, are also flat earthers.

> > > >

> > > > I have experience in this, have read about it, researched it and tried to understand it. Does it make me an expert, no, but I think I have more factual knowledge that most if not all of those saying fitness doesn't increase distance.

> > > >

> > > > Fitness first of all, has many forms. There is the cardiovascular which is just good for your health in general but it also helps with walking 72 holes in a weekend tournament and not fading physically. There is flexibility you can obtain through fitness regimens which can help a person make a longer backswing if they so choose, better wrist hinge, more hip turn etc to possibly create more swing speed and therefore more distance. There is strength training you can do. Adding muscle doesn't necessary increase speed out right, but it does allow you to add more speed and be able to control it. You need stability, strong hands, strong wrists, strong forearms to swing a club north of 115-120 and do it repeatedly and well. That can come from fitness.

> > > >

> > > > I know personally that I am at my current physical limit speed wise (aka potential distance wise) and I would need to hit the gym with purposeful exercise and weight training to reach a new limit. I would need to strengthen my legs primarily, my core, my hands, my forearms and wrists for sure, to be able to reach a higher ceiling. It is not easy to exactly quantify how much can be gained from fitness efforts alone but it can most definitely be substantial.

> > > >

> > > > I turn your attention to the long drive guys on tv. They aren't all generally very muscular for no reason. They are all trying to reach their bodies limits and you have to have a good fitness program to do that. Take John Daly for instance. He had speed from both technique and genetics no doubt but you can bet he also got that from getting golf fit through just swinging hard. If he wanted to get to another level, he would have to lose weight, and add strength. He probably wouldn't benefit from much added flexibility but if he did work on that, he could make his swing even longer if he wanted.

> > > >

> > > > I just can't believe that those of you so against this idea are that naive. You can't possibly. Yes, equipment, swing technique, optimization are a huge part of what can help increase a person's distance but so is purposeful golf related fitness (working out so that you can run a mile in 5 minutes isn't necessarily going to do anything for your swing speed, nor is just bulking up and becoming very muscular, it has to be specific to golf and there are a lot of known ways to improve your swing speed via very specific fitness programs).

> > > >

> > > >

> > >

> > > Stop with that flat-earth silliness. You have ZERO results-based facts to show that anyone on the Tour added any significant distance by adding a fitness/workout regiment.

> >

> > Again, I believe it's difficult to find examples:

> > (a) because almost all of them have golf-specific workout routines before making it on tour. It's basically a modern requirement for most; and

> > (b) anyone who makes it on tour being out of shape is very unlikely to suddenly get ripped.

> >

>

> Scott Stallings. In 2018 incorporated Cross Fit workouts and lost 50 pounds. And he went from an out-of-shape Tour player to a very fit player. Zero impact on his driving distance.

 

When players & coaches create fitness programs, there are many different goals and objectives they’re trying to obtain. How do you know Scott Stallings was specifically targeting increased distance?

 

Show us 3 different examples of “results-based facts” proving he was actively targeting increased distance… or

 

Alternatively, if you get Stallings Swing Coach to specifically state "Gaining greater distance was our core aim of the fitness program", then that's ample enough evidence as it's straight from the horses mouth.

[BarnbougleDunes03]

> @mahonie said:

> > @bladehunter said:

> > > @BarnbougleDunes03 said:

> > > > @LICC said:

> > > > > @BarnbougleDunes03 said:

> > > > > > @LICC said:

> > > > > > > @BarnbougleDunes03 said:

> > > > > > > > @gvogel said:

> > > > > > > > > @BarnbougleDunes03 said:

> > > > > > > > > > @LICC said:

> > > > > > > > > > > @BarnbougleDunes03 said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > @bladehunter said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > > @BarnbougleDunes03 said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > @bladehunter said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @Titleist99 said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @Bebsport678 said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > In the OP, the number of years that Daly was the distance leader is astounding.

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The fact that John Daly was hitting it over 300 yards years ago wasn't a problem, no one believed that he would make classic courses obsolete. Now that more players can bomb it 300 ocassionally the traditionalist thinks that the sky is falling...

> > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Nope again. The issue is that over half the ones hitting it 300 now , wouldn’t in Johns day. They aren’t all new john Daly’s. They are some Tom kites hitting it 300 plus too. What we want is a return of skill for the distance.

> > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > To your comment “What we want is a return of skill for the distance.” But hitting a ball great distance and with accuracy IS a skill and it hasn't gone anywhere. The tech being used today is virtually all the same and the longer hitters of yesteryear (300 yards) would still be the longer hitters of today (320 yards) with todays equipment. And due to basic physics, the longer you hit it (320 vs 300) the more accurate & skillful a player has to be. Hitting 320 today accurately is a hard skill to learn, it’s why players like Tiger & Day have often struggled compared to the games longest/straightest hitters, and they all play the same equipment remember.

> > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > But not everyone today (like yesteryear) can hit the same distances or as accurately. For some players they gain their distance through their greater athleticism (be it fitness, training, age, genetics and/or a combination of them all), while others gain it more through efficient technique alongside those other factors.

> > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > I just don’t buy the workout equals distance point. Sure you can polish speed. But the DJ , Rory etc are born with what they have. No other way to explain how a tiny guy like Rory hits it so far. Gym time is about flexibility and preventing injury. In other words Maintenance

> > > > > > > > > > > > as they age.

> > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > Sure. Hitting it far is a skill. But I don’t believe it’s near has much of one now as before. 300 with persimmon is next level talent. 300 with today’s ball and driver ? Please the am world is full of guys who can control that.

> > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > I’m talking relative distance. My issue isn’t with the long hitters. It’s the medium and short knockers that are keeping up. I believe they have a much easier time keeping up now vs in days past.

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > As to my post above, some players lean more to genetics for their greater distance gains, others to fitness & training, while others lean on developing better technique, some do all of it - but to hit the ball far AND accurate also comes down to the inclusion of great technique, and no one is born with technique or accuracy, it’s developed. Justin Rose has talked about increasing his distance due to increased physical training, Rory has also admitted to increasing distance & greater control through the shot due to undertaking his professional fitness program years back, and many more players have done and do the same. The fact is golf today is a more professional sport top to bottom than ever before and thus attracting and refining more athletes and developing more players into better athletes - even Tiger has referred to this reality today.

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > Sure, 300 yesteryear was next level but today 330-350 is also next level, and there are still many players who can’t hit it 300 today. But for all those that can keep up is a core reason why it’s harder to win today than before.

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > Find me three examples where someone gained materially more distance due to fitness training. Where you have the person's driving distance before they did fitness training and the number after and it was materially longer. I doubt you can do it.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > From my quick look I can’t quote exact before & after distances that you specifically ask for, but all 3 players mentioned below have openly talked about increased distance through fitness and it’s researchable if you care to look.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > Here’s a quick quote from Rory’s Fitness Doctor:

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > "As his training continued we focused on injury-proofing and increases in strength and power. That translates into other aspects that are important to him, which is greater shot distance and greater control of the club head.”

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > I remember clearly Rory Mcilroy’s interview on this very topic in 2014 after his 2nd major win that year talking to Skysports about the role of his fitness program over recent years and the impact it’s had on his increased distance and control through the high speed driver swing. Rory also mentioned that these increased distance gains allowed him to not swing 100% every time which also allowed him further greater control.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > A similar case watching an interview with Justin Rose & Sean Foley a few years back talking about how his fitness program had helped increase his distance.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > Tiger Woods has also talked many times about the impact of better athletes & fitness in the game and it’s impact on distance today compared to early 2000s.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > What do you expect Rory to say? He worked hard to make his body leaner and fitter. He used the fitness as a psychological edge, and he was willing to talk about it post championship. However, he didn't gain much distance; he was born with distance.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Rory’s always been very honest with his answers, why question him now? Couldn’t his answer simply be the truth of the matter that’s been a constant process of reshaping his body since 2010 increasing it’s strength, power and flexibility?

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Is Rory’s Fitness Doctor ‘making it all up’ also?

> > > > > > > Is Molinari’s Swing Coach also ‘making it all up’?

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Or could the answers from different players, coaches, trainers just be giving their honest answers on the matter? Seems a bit ‘conspiracy theory’ to think they all planned to make something up, no?

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Or could it be that their answers simply counter you basic premise and it doesn’t sit very well with some of you? I think that's more likely.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > The facts support our view. Rory didn't gain distance after beginning a fitness regimen. Molinari made major swing changes. All you are pointing to are fluffy statements about working out.

> > > > >

> > > > > “The facts support our view”

> > > > >

> > > > > If Denis Pugh had replied saying “Fitness plays a small part” or “Swing changes plays a massive part”… then yes the facts would support your view - but he DIDN’T, did he.

> > > > >

> > > > > So explain exactly how Denis Pugh’s own comments stating “Fitness plays a massive part” in their distance gains “supports your view”?

> > > > >

> > > > > Mental Gymnastics commence on 1.2.3…

> > > >

> > > > Ah, yes, Denis Pugh's statement to you in a text message. Sure ...

> > > >

> > > > Molinari's own words:

> > > >

> > > > Players such as Rory McIlroy and Cameron Champ are able to generate whip-like action in the downswing by firing their hips toward the target independently of their torsos. Molinari says he’d love to generate power the same way, but he physically can’t. “I had to find a different kind of power move,” he says. In the past, his swing speed was largely created by his hands and arms—a big reason he averaged only about 280 yards off the tee—but now his trunk is much more involved. “My right shoulder used to stay back as I swung down, still close to where it was at address,” he says. “Then the club would race out in front of me. Now I’m really trying to feel a lot more shoulder rotation in the downswing—especially the right shoulder [above]. I feel like it’s pushing down toward the ball and also toward the target.”

> > > >

> > > > Looking back at his former swing, Molinari says he was probably using only 70 to 75 percent of his potential effort. “Since that time, I’m putting a lot more energy into it,” he says. “Don’t get me wrong, it’s not like I’m swinging out of my shoes. I’m just maximizing what I’ve got.”

> > >

> > > “Sure”

> > >

> > > Why do think everyone’s lying? First it’s Rory, then his Fitness Doctor, then Molinari, then Denis Pugh his swing coach, now me. Why is everything a conspiracy theory with you?

> > >

> > > For the record Denis Pugh replied to my tweet yesterday, go check it out if you know how to use Twitter.

> > >

> > > And to add greater context to your quote, read the following quote:

> > >

> > > “Molinari has spent a lot of time with performance coach Dave Alred getting stronger and more flexible. Their work is evident in the power Molinari can generate with his legs, Pugh says. “Power doesn’t come from technique, it comes from physique,” he says. “The goal was to get him as strong as possible to create more power in his swing. But we had to make sure his technique didn’t block that newfound energy from being utilized.”

> > >

> > > Lets read the “goal” again…“The goal was to get him as strong as possible to create more power in his swing.” The technique (swing changes) they were working on alongside was to ensure it didn’t “block” that “newfound energy”.

> > >

> > > Technique = Flow to Power

> > > Power = Distance

> > >

> > > This is why Denis is one of the worlds leading coaches and having knowledge of all the data points underpinning Molinari’s increased distance why he stats as a matter of FACT “Fitness plays a massive part” in their distance gains.

> >

> > Lol. I’m out of this after this comment. This thread is quite possibly dumber than me.

> >

> >

> > A quip bragging about being a twitter user does not prop up your argument for greater intelligence.

>

> Having sparred with Denis on Twitter on several occasions, my only conclusion is that he’s an idiot and Molinari would be far better off with a better coach!

 

Character has nothing to do with ability. The fact is he’s significantly increased Molinari’s distance due to a clever fitness & swing change program.

 

The results speak for themselves. And it's interesting you describe your actions as "sparred" with him, that sounds combative.

[mahonie]

> @oikos1 said:

> So, through this thread we have discovered that the state of Golf is actually in pretty good shape currently. More new golfers (2 million + per year) in the last few years (numbers that haven't been seen since Tiger came on the scene), golf sales are on the rise, tv viewership is up and handicaps are going down. Yes, the ball goes farther, equipment has improved and the end result appears to be more people coming to and enjoying the game of golf.

>

> What is so bad about that?

 

Glad the game is booming on your side of the pond. The modern distance game, the product pushed by the PGA Tour with its worldwide presence, is gradually killing the game over here where there is no space to add distance to courses, the majority of which are between 50 and 100+ years old. The game is boring to watch for the majority of people, even fanatical golfers, and is becoming one-dimensional at the recreational level...so boring to play too. Modern equipment has ripped out the essence of the game...thing is most people under the age of 30 don’t really understand what has been lost. It really is only half the game it used to be.

 

I can see a time when there could well be bifurcation at some point in the future where there will be a game called ‘American Golf’ and a game called ‘golf.’ American Golf will only be played on courses over 7500 yards long with fairways at least 50 yards wide. Par 3s must not measure anything less than 200 yards and the bag will consist of a Driver, a mid-iron and 11 wedges...and a mallet putter with a head that is at least 6” long. All scoring will be statistic based and anyone trying to ‘shot make’ will be banned. Minimum swing speeds will be introduced and anyone not able to average 320 yards off the tee will be suspended and banished to the ‘Rest of the World’ Tour.

 

To be allowed access to the course as a spectator at the televised events, you will need to demonstrate the ability to shout ‘Mashed potato’ or some other inane phrase at 110 decibels, preferably when under the influence of a couple of pints of weak beer.

 

Traditional golf values of etiquette, decorum and sportsmanship will be actively frowned upon. Loud music, copious amounts of alcohol and leery behaviour on the course are a given.

 

Contractually, professional players will be required to attend post-round interviews but will only be required to answer with words of one syllable...personality is not a requirement.

 

The game will be allowed to flourish with no restrictions and the Green Jacket will be replaced with the Green Hoodie.

[Titleist99]

> @mahonie said:ee

> > @oikos1 said:

> > So, through this thread we have discovered that the state of Golf is actually in pretty good shape currently. More new golfers (2 million + per year) in the last few years (numbers that haven't been seen since Tiger came on the scene), golf sales are on the rise, tv viewership is up and handicaps are going down. Yes, the ball goes farther, equipment has improved and the end result appears to be more people coming to and enjoying the game of golf.

> >

> > What is so bad about that?

>

> Glad the game is booming on your side of the pond. The modern distance game, the product pushed by the PGA Tour with its worldwide presence, is gradually killing the game over here where there is no space to add distance to courses, the majority of which are between 50 and 100+ years old. The game is boring to watch for the majority of people, even fanatical golfers, and is becoming one-dimensional at the recreational level...so boring to play too. Modern equipment has ripped out the essence of the game...thing is most people under the age of 30 don’t really understand what has been lost. It really is only half the game it used to be.

>

> I can see a time when there could well be bifurcation at some point in the future where there will be a game called ‘American Golf’ and a game called ‘golf.’ American Golf will only be played on courses over 7500 yards long with fairways at least 50 yards wide. Par 3s must not measure anything less than 200 yards and the bag will consist of a Driver, a mid-iron and 11 wedges...and a mallet putter with a head that is at least 6” long. All scoring will be statistic based and anyone trying to ‘shot make’ will be banned. Minimum swing speeds will be introduced and anyone not able to average 320 yards off the tee will be suspended and banished to the ‘Rest of the World’ Tour.

>

> To be allowed access to the course as a spectator at the televised events, you will need to demonstrate the ability to shout ‘Mashed potato’ or some other inane phrase at 110 decibels, preferably when under the influence of a couple of pints of weak beer.

>

> Traditional golf values of etiquette, decorum and sportsmanship will be actively frowned upon. Loud music, copious amounts of alcohol and leery behaviour on the course are a given.

>

> Contractually, professional players will be required to attend post-round interviews but will only be required to answer with words of one syllable...personality is not a requirement.

>

> The game will be allowed to flourish with no restrictions and the Green Jacket will be replaced with the Green Hoodie.

 

I know thousands of golfers and none remotely think like you, thank goodness....while the game is not perfect (i.e, rules) it is still the best game in the world.

[bladehunter]

> @Titleist99 said:

> > @mahonie said:ee

> > > @oikos1 said:

> > > So, through this thread we have discovered that the state of Golf is actually in pretty good shape currently. More new golfers (2 million + per year) in the last few years (numbers that haven't been seen since Tiger came on the scene), golf sales are on the rise, tv viewership is up and handicaps are going down. Yes, the ball goes farther, equipment has improved and the end result appears to be more people coming to and enjoying the game of golf.

> > >

> > > What is so bad about that?

> >

> > Glad the game is booming on your side of the pond. The modern distance game, the product pushed by the PGA Tour with its worldwide presence, is gradually killing the game over here where there is no space to add distance to courses, the majority of which are between 50 and 100+ years old. The game is boring to watch for the majority of people, even fanatical golfers, and is becoming one-dimensional at the recreational level...so boring to play too. Modern equipment has ripped out the essence of the game...thing is most people under the age of 30 don’t really understand what has been lost. It really is only half the game it used to be.

> >

> > I can see a time when there could well be bifurcation at some point in the future where there will be a game called ‘American Golf’ and a game called ‘golf.’ American Golf will only be played on courses over 7500 yards long with fairways at least 50 yards wide. Par 3s must not measure anything less than 200 yards and the bag will consist of a Driver, a mid-iron and 11 wedges...and a mallet putter with a head that is at least 6” long. All scoring will be statistic based and anyone trying to ‘shot make’ will be banned. Minimum swing speeds will be introduced and anyone not able to average 320 yards off the tee will be suspended and banished to the ‘Rest of the World’ Tour.

> >

> > To be allowed access to the course as a spectator at the televised events, you will need to demonstrate the ability to shout ‘Mashed potato’ or some other inane phrase at 110 decibels, preferably when under the influence of a couple of pints of weak beer.

> >

> > Traditional golf values of etiquette, decorum and sportsmanship will be actively frowned upon. Loud music, copious amounts of alcohol and leery behaviour on the course are a given.

> >

> > Contractually, professional players will be required to attend post-round interviews but will only be required to answer with words of one syllable...personality is not a requirement.

> >

> > The game will be allowed to flourish with no restrictions and the Green Jacket will be replaced with the Green Hoodie.

>

> I know thousands of golfers and none remotely think like you, thank goodness....while the game is not perfect (i.e, rules) it is still the best game in the world.

 

I’m sorry. “ thousands “ ? As in one thousand or 20 thousand ? That’s a lot of golfers. Do you play with a different foursome twice a day ?

[Titleist99]

> @bladehunter said:

> > @Titleist99 said:

> > > @mahonie said:ee

> > > > @oikos1 said:

> > > > So, through this thread we have discovered that the state of Golf is actually in pretty good shape currently. More new golfers (2 million + per year) in the last few years (numbers that haven't been seen since Tiger came on the scene), golf sales are on the rise, tv viewership is up and handicaps are going down. Yes, the ball goes farther, equipment has improved and the end result appears to be more people coming to and enjoying the game of golf.

> > > >

> > > > What is so bad about that?

> > >

> > > Glad the game is booming on your side of the pond. The modern distance game, the product pushed by the PGA Tour with its worldwide presence, is gradually killing the game over here where there is no space to add distance to courses, the majority of which are between 50 and 100+ years old. The game is boring to watch for the majority of people, even fanatical golfers, and is becoming one-dimensional at the recreational level...so boring to play too. Modern equipment has ripped out the essence of the game...thing is most people under the age of 30 don’t really understand what has been lost. It really is only half the game it used to be.

> > >

> > > I can see a time when there could well be bifurcation at some point in the future where there will be a game called ‘American Golf’ and a game called ‘golf.’ American Golf will only be played on courses over 7500 yards long with fairways at least 50 yards wide. Par 3s must not measure anything less than 200 yards and the bag will consist of a Driver, a mid-iron and 11 wedges...and a mallet putter with a head that is at least 6” long. All scoring will be statistic based and anyone trying to ‘shot make’ will be banned. Minimum swing speeds will be introduced and anyone not able to average 320 yards off the tee will be suspended and banished to the ‘Rest of the World’ Tour.

> > >

> > > To be allowed access to the course as a spectator at the televised events, you will need to demonstrate the ability to shout ‘Mashed potato’ or some other inane phrase at 110 decibels, preferably when under the influence of a couple of pints of weak beer.

> > >

> > > Traditional golf values of etiquette, decorum and sportsmanship will be actively frowned upon. Loud music, copious amounts of alcohol and leery behaviour on the course are a given.

> > >

> > > Contractually, professional players will be required to attend post-round interviews but will only be required to answer with words of one syllable...personality is not a requirement.

> > >

> > > The game will be allowed to flourish with no restrictions and the Green Jacket will be replaced with the Green Hoodie.

> >

> > I know thousands of golfers and none remotely think like you, thank goodness....while the game is not perfect (i.e, rules) it is still the best game in the world.

>

> I’m sorry. “ thousands “ ? As in one thousand or 20 thousand ? That’s a lot of golfers. Do you play with a different foursome twice a day ?

 

Just for the record Jethro, I've worked at the same golf course for 13years …..any more questions....

[Ashley Schaeffer]

> @LICC said:

> > @"Ashley Schaeffer" said:

> > > @LICC said:

> > > > @clevited said:

> > > > I still can't believe the concept of fitness can make significant increases in swing speed and therefore distance is being debated. I swear that those of you that don't believe that, are also flat earthers.

> > > >

> > > > I have experience in this, have read about it, researched it and tried to understand it. Does it make me an expert, no, but I think I have more factual knowledge that most if not all of those saying fitness doesn't increase distance.

> > > >

> > > > Fitness first of all, has many forms. There is the cardiovascular which is just good for your health in general but it also helps with walking 72 holes in a weekend tournament and not fading physically. There is flexibility you can obtain through fitness regimens which can help a person make a longer backswing if they so choose, better wrist hinge, more hip turn etc to possibly create more swing speed and therefore more distance. There is strength training you can do. Adding muscle doesn't necessary increase speed out right, but it does allow you to add more speed and be able to control it. You need stability, strong hands, strong wrists, strong forearms to swing a club north of 115-120 and do it repeatedly and well. That can come from fitness.

> > > >

> > > > I know personally that I am at my current physical limit speed wise (aka potential distance wise) and I would need to hit the gym with purposeful exercise and weight training to reach a new limit. I would need to strengthen my legs primarily, my core, my hands, my forearms and wrists for sure, to be able to reach a higher ceiling. It is not easy to exactly quantify how much can be gained from fitness efforts alone but it can most definitely be substantial.

> > > >

> > > > I turn your attention to the long drive guys on tv. They aren't all generally very muscular for no reason. They are all trying to reach their bodies limits and you have to have a good fitness program to do that. Take John Daly for instance. He had speed from both technique and genetics no doubt but you can bet he also got that from getting golf fit through just swinging hard. If he wanted to get to another level, he would have to lose weight, and add strength. He probably wouldn't benefit from much added flexibility but if he did work on that, he could make his swing even longer if he wanted.

> > > >

> > > > I just can't believe that those of you so against this idea are that naive. You can't possibly. Yes, equipment, swing technique, optimization are a huge part of what can help increase a person's distance but so is purposeful golf related fitness (working out so that you can run a mile in 5 minutes isn't necessarily going to do anything for your swing speed, nor is just bulking up and becoming very muscular, it has to be specific to golf and there are a lot of known ways to improve your swing speed via very specific fitness programs).

> > > >

> > > >

> > >

> > > Stop with that flat-earth silliness. You have ZERO results-based facts to show that anyone on the Tour added any significant distance by adding a fitness/workout regiment.

> >

> > Again, I believe it's difficult to find examples:

> > (a) because almost all of them have golf-specific workout routines before making it on tour. It's basically a modern requirement for most; and

> > (b) anyone who makes it on tour being out of shape is very unlikely to suddenly get ripped.

> >

>

> Scott Stallings. In 2018 incorporated Cross Fit workouts and lost 50 pounds. And he went from an out-of-shape Tour player to a very fit player. Zero impact on his driving distance.

 

Yeah, he had quite the transformation. I do find his stats interesting since he _began_ fitness traning in Q2 2018:

Driving distance:

2020: 313

2019: 297

2018: 299.7

2017: 297.6

2016: 295.5

2015: 291.8

[mahonie]

> @BarnbougleDunes03 said:

> > @mahonie said:

> > > @bladehunter said:

> > > > @BarnbougleDunes03 said:

> > > > > @LICC said:

> > > > > > @BarnbougleDunes03 said:

> > > > > > > @LICC said:

> > > > > > > > @BarnbougleDunes03 said:

> > > > > > > > > @gvogel said:

> > > > > > > > > > @BarnbougleDunes03 said:

> > > > > > > > > > > @LICC said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > @BarnbougleDunes03 said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > > @bladehunter said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > @BarnbougleDunes03 said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @bladehunter said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @Titleist99 said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @Bebsport678 said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > In the OP, the number of years that Daly was the distance leader is astounding.

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The fact that John Daly was hitting it over 300 yards years ago wasn't a problem, no one believed that he would make classic courses obsolete. Now that more players can bomb it 300 ocassionally the traditionalist thinks that the sky is falling...

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Nope again. The issue is that over half the ones hitting it 300 now , wouldn’t in Johns day. They aren’t all new john Daly’s. They are some Tom kites hitting it 300 plus too. What we want is a return of skill for the distance.

> > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > To your comment “What we want is a return of skill for the distance.” But hitting a ball great distance and with accuracy IS a skill and it hasn't gone anywhere. The tech being used today is virtually all the same and the longer hitters of yesteryear (300 yards) would still be the longer hitters of today (320 yards) with todays equipment. And due to basic physics, the longer you hit it (320 vs 300) the more accurate & skillful a player has to be. Hitting 320 today accurately is a hard skill to learn, it’s why players like Tiger & Day have often struggled compared to the games longest/straightest hitters, and they all play the same equipment remember.

> > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > But not everyone today (like yesteryear) can hit the same distances or as accurately. For some players they gain their distance through their greater athleticism (be it fitness, training, age, genetics and/or a combination of them all), while others gain it more through efficient technique alongside those other factors.

> > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > I just don’t buy the workout equals distance point. Sure you can polish speed. But the DJ , Rory etc are born with what they have. No other way to explain how a tiny guy like Rory hits it so far. Gym time is about flexibility and preventing injury. In other words Maintenance

> > > > > > > > > > > > > as they age.

> > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > Sure. Hitting it far is a skill. But I don’t believe it’s near has much of one now as before. 300 with persimmon is next level talent. 300 with today’s ball and driver ? Please the am world is full of guys who can control that.

> > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > I’m talking relative distance. My issue isn’t with the long hitters. It’s the medium and short knockers that are keeping up. I believe they have a much easier time keeping up now vs in days past.

> > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > As to my post above, some players lean more to genetics for their greater distance gains, others to fitness & training, while others lean on developing better technique, some do all of it - but to hit the ball far AND accurate also comes down to the inclusion of great technique, and no one is born with technique or accuracy, it’s developed. Justin Rose has talked about increasing his distance due to increased physical training, Rory has also admitted to increasing distance & greater control through the shot due to undertaking his professional fitness program years back, and many more players have done and do the same. The fact is golf today is a more professional sport top to bottom than ever before and thus attracting and refining more athletes and developing more players into better athletes - even Tiger has referred to this reality today.

> > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > Sure, 300 yesteryear was next level but today 330-350 is also next level, and there are still many players who can’t hit it 300 today. But for all those that can keep up is a core reason why it’s harder to win today than before.

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > Find me three examples where someone gained materially more distance due to fitness training. Where you have the person's driving distance before they did fitness training and the number after and it was materially longer. I doubt you can do it.

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > From my quick look I can’t quote exact before & after distances that you specifically ask for, but all 3 players mentioned below have openly talked about increased distance through fitness and it’s researchable if you care to look.

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > Here’s a quick quote from Rory’s Fitness Doctor:

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > "As his training continued we focused on injury-proofing and increases in strength and power. That translates into other aspects that are important to him, which is greater shot distance and greater control of the club head.”

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > I remember clearly Rory Mcilroy’s interview on this very topic in 2014 after his 2nd major win that year talking to Skysports about the role of his fitness program over recent years and the impact it’s had on his increased distance and control through the high speed driver swing. Rory also mentioned that these increased distance gains allowed him to not swing 100% every time which also allowed him further greater control.

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > A similar case watching an interview with Justin Rose & Sean Foley a few years back talking about how his fitness program had helped increase his distance.

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > Tiger Woods has also talked many times about the impact of better athletes & fitness in the game and it’s impact on distance today compared to early 2000s.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > What do you expect Rory to say? He worked hard to make his body leaner and fitter. He used the fitness as a psychological edge, and he was willing to talk about it post championship. However, he didn't gain much distance; he was born with distance.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > Rory’s always been very honest with his answers, why question him now? Couldn’t his answer simply be the truth of the matter that’s been a constant process of reshaping his body since 2010 increasing it’s strength, power and flexibility?

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > Is Rory’s Fitness Doctor ‘making it all up’ also?

> > > > > > > > Is Molinari’s Swing Coach also ‘making it all up’?

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > Or could the answers from different players, coaches, trainers just be giving their honest answers on the matter? Seems a bit ‘conspiracy theory’ to think they all planned to make something up, no?

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > Or could it be that their answers simply counter you basic premise and it doesn’t sit very well with some of you? I think that's more likely.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > The facts support our view. Rory didn't gain distance after beginning a fitness regimen. Molinari made major swing changes. All you are pointing to are fluffy statements about working out.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > “The facts support our view”

> > > > > >

> > > > > > If Denis Pugh had replied saying “Fitness plays a small part” or “Swing changes plays a massive part”… then yes the facts would support your view - but he DIDN’T, did he.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > So explain exactly how Denis Pugh’s own comments stating “Fitness plays a massive part” in their distance gains “supports your view”?

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Mental Gymnastics commence on 1.2.3…

> > > > >

> > > > > Ah, yes, Denis Pugh's statement to you in a text message. Sure ...

> > > > >

> > > > > Molinari's own words:

> > > > >

> > > > > Players such as Rory McIlroy and Cameron Champ are able to generate whip-like action in the downswing by firing their hips toward the target independently of their torsos. Molinari says he’d love to generate power the same way, but he physically can’t. “I had to find a different kind of power move,” he says. In the past, his swing speed was largely created by his hands and arms—a big reason he averaged only about 280 yards off the tee—but now his trunk is much more involved. “My right shoulder used to stay back as I swung down, still close to where it was at address,” he says. “Then the club would race out in front of me. Now I’m really trying to feel a lot more shoulder rotation in the downswing—especially the right shoulder [above]. I feel like it’s pushing down toward the ball and also toward the target.”

> > > > >

> > > > > Looking back at his former swing, Molinari says he was probably using only 70 to 75 percent of his potential effort. “Since that time, I’m putting a lot more energy into it,” he says. “Don’t get me wrong, it’s not like I’m swinging out of my shoes. I’m just maximizing what I’ve got.”

> > > >

> > > > “Sure”

> > > >

> > > > Why do think everyone’s lying? First it’s Rory, then his Fitness Doctor, then Molinari, then Denis Pugh his swing coach, now me. Why is everything a conspiracy theory with you?

> > > >

> > > > For the record Denis Pugh replied to my tweet yesterday, go check it out if you know how to use Twitter.

> > > >

> > > > And to add greater context to your quote, read the following quote:

> > > >

> > > > “Molinari has spent a lot of time with performance coach Dave Alred getting stronger and more flexible. Their work is evident in the power Molinari can generate with his legs, Pugh says. “Power doesn’t come from technique, it comes from physique,” he says. “The goal was to get him as strong as possible to create more power in his swing. But we had to make sure his technique didn’t block that newfound energy from being utilized.”

> > > >

> > > > Lets read the “goal” again…“The goal was to get him as strong as possible to create more power in his swing.” The technique (swing changes) they were working on alongside was to ensure it didn’t “block” that “newfound energy”.

> > > >

> > > > Technique = Flow to Power

> > > > Power = Distance

> > > >

> > > > This is why Denis is one of the worlds leading coaches and having knowledge of all the data points underpinning Molinari’s increased distance why he stats as a matter of FACT “Fitness plays a massive part” in their distance gains.

> > >

> > > Lol. I’m out of this after this comment. This thread is quite possibly dumber than me.

> > >

> > >

> > > A quip bragging about being a twitter user does not prop up your argument for greater intelligence.

> >

> > Having sparred with Denis on Twitter on several occasions, my only conclusion is that he’s an idiot and Molinari would be far better off with a better coach!

>

> Character has nothing to do with ability. The fact is he’s significantly increased Molinari’s distance due to a clever fitness & swing change program.

>

> The results speak for themselves. And it's interesting you describe your actions as "sparred" with him, that sounds combative.

 

He can be an idiot on several levels...and at the same too, quite a rare combination!!

[mahonie]

> @Titleist99 said:

> > @bladehunter said:

> > > @Titleist99 said:

> > > > @mahonie said:ee

> > > > > @oikos1 said:

> > > > > So, through this thread we have discovered that the state of Golf is actually in pretty good shape currently. More new golfers (2 million + per year) in the last few years (numbers that haven't been seen since Tiger came on the scene), golf sales are on the rise, tv viewership is up and handicaps are going down. Yes, the ball goes farther, equipment has improved and the end result appears to be more people coming to and enjoying the game of golf.

> > > > >

> > > > > What is so bad about that?

> > > >

> > > > Glad the game is booming on your side of the pond. The modern distance game, the product pushed by the PGA Tour with its worldwide presence, is gradually killing the game over here where there is no space to add distance to courses, the majority of which are between 50 and 100+ years old. The game is boring to watch for the majority of people, even fanatical golfers, and is becoming one-dimensional at the recreational level...so boring to play too. Modern equipment has ripped out the essence of the game...thing is most people under the age of 30 don’t really understand what has been lost. It really is only half the game it used to be.

> > > >

> > > > I can see a time when there could well be bifurcation at some point in the future where there will be a game called ‘American Golf’ and a game called ‘golf.’ American Golf will only be played on courses over 7500 yards long with fairways at least 50 yards wide. Par 3s must not measure anything less than 200 yards and the bag will consist of a Driver, a mid-iron and 11 wedges...and a mallet putter with a head that is at least 6” long. All scoring will be statistic based and anyone trying to ‘shot make’ will be banned. Minimum swing speeds will be introduced and anyone not able to average 320 yards off the tee will be suspended and banished to the ‘Rest of the World’ Tour.

> > > >

> > > > To be allowed access to the course as a spectator at the televised events, you will need to demonstrate the ability to shout ‘Mashed potato’ or some other inane phrase at 110 decibels, preferably when under the influence of a couple of pints of weak beer.

> > > >

> > > > Traditional golf values of etiquette, decorum and sportsmanship will be actively frowned upon. Loud music, copious amounts of alcohol and leery behaviour on the course are a given.

> > > >

> > > > Contractually, professional players will be required to attend post-round interviews but will only be required to answer with words of one syllable...personality is not a requirement.

> > > >

> > > > The game will be allowed to flourish with no restrictions and the Green Jacket will be replaced with the Green Hoodie.

> > >

> > > I know thousands of golfers and none remotely think like you, thank goodness....while the game is not perfect (i.e, rules) it is still the best game in the world.

> >

> > I’m sorry. “ thousands “ ? As in one thousand or 20 thousand ? That’s a lot of golfers. Do you play with a different foursome twice a day ?

>

> Just for the record Jethro, I've worked at the same golf course for 13years …..any more questions....

 

Of the sub-genus ‘American Golfers’ by any chance?

 

Guessing your course is long and wide open, bunkers at 220, 600 yard par 5s?

[bullie76]

Closer look at distance off a tee? At 65 I try not to think about it....too depressing.

[oikos1]

> @"Ashley Schaeffer" said:

> > @LICC said:

> > > @"Ashley Schaeffer" said:

> > > > @LICC said:

> > > > > @clevited said:

> > > > > I still can't believe the concept of fitness can make significant increases in swing speed and therefore distance is being debated. I swear that those of you that don't believe that, are also flat earthers.

> > > > >

> > > > > I have experience in this, have read about it, researched it and tried to understand it. Does it make me an expert, no, but I think I have more factual knowledge that most if not all of those saying fitness doesn't increase distance.

> > > > >

> > > > > Fitness first of all, has many forms. There is the cardiovascular which is just good for your health in general but it also helps with walking 72 holes in a weekend tournament and not fading physically. There is flexibility you can obtain through fitness regimens which can help a person make a longer backswing if they so choose, better wrist hinge, more hip turn etc to possibly create more swing speed and therefore more distance. There is strength training you can do. Adding muscle doesn't necessary increase speed out right, but it does allow you to add more speed and be able to control it. You need stability, strong hands, strong wrists, strong forearms to swing a club north of 115-120 and do it repeatedly and well. That can come from fitness.

> > > > >

> > > > > I know personally that I am at my current physical limit speed wise (aka potential distance wise) and I would need to hit the gym with purposeful exercise and weight training to reach a new limit. I would need to strengthen my legs primarily, my core, my hands, my forearms and wrists for sure, to be able to reach a higher ceiling. It is not easy to exactly quantify how much can be gained from fitness efforts alone but it can most definitely be substantial.

> > > > >

> > > > > I turn your attention to the long drive guys on tv. They aren't all generally very muscular for no reason. They are all trying to reach their bodies limits and you have to have a good fitness program to do that. Take John Daly for instance. He had speed from both technique and genetics no doubt but you can bet he also got that from getting golf fit through just swinging hard. If he wanted to get to another level, he would have to lose weight, and add strength. He probably wouldn't benefit from much added flexibility but if he did work on that, he could make his swing even longer if he wanted.

> > > > >

> > > > > I just can't believe that those of you so against this idea are that naive. You can't possibly. Yes, equipment, swing technique, optimization are a huge part of what can help increase a person's distance but so is purposeful golf related fitness (working out so that you can run a mile in 5 minutes isn't necessarily going to do anything for your swing speed, nor is just bulking up and becoming very muscular, it has to be specific to golf and there are a lot of known ways to improve your swing speed via very specific fitness programs).

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > Stop with that flat-earth silliness. You have ZERO results-based facts to show that anyone on the Tour added any significant distance by adding a fitness/workout regiment.

> > >

> > > Again, I believe it's difficult to find examples:

> > > (a) because almost all of them have golf-specific workout routines before making it on tour. It's basically a modern requirement for most; and

> > > (b) anyone who makes it on tour being out of shape is very unlikely to suddenly get ripped.

> > >

> >

> > Scott Stallings. In 2018 incorporated Cross Fit workouts and lost 50 pounds. And he went from an out-of-shape Tour player to a very fit player. Zero impact on his driving distance.

>

> Yeah, he had quite the transformation. I do find his stats interesting since he _began_ fitness traning in Q2 2018:

> Driving distance:

> 2020: 313

> 2019: 297

> 2018: 299.7

> 2017: 297.6

> 2016: 295.5

> 2015: 291.8

 

Lol. Another one of those "inconvenient facts" getting in the way. Also, the boys are absolutely smashing it this year. Finau 335 avg. Do we have new ball technology? New clubs? Can't be, the manufacturers can't get any more distance, right? They're just selling fake distance was the mantra earlier in the thread.

 

Could it be stronger, smarter, faster? Maybe course layouts and super speed fairways? Maybe, just maybe, a little bit of everything.

[smashdn]

> @oikos1 said:

>

> Here we go again. Why should I have to explain why handicaps are not going down?

>

 

I apologize. Someone who stated that equipment was not making golfers as a whole better said that handicaps had not changed. I did not fact check there premise.

[LICC]

> @oikos1 said:

> > @"Ashley Schaeffer" said:

> > > @LICC said:

> > > > @"Ashley Schaeffer" said:

> > > > > @LICC said:

> > > > > > @clevited said:

> > > > > > I still can't believe the concept of fitness can make significant increases in swing speed and therefore distance is being debated. I swear that those of you that don't believe that, are also flat earthers.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > I have experience in this, have read about it, researched it and tried to understand it. Does it make me an expert, no, but I think I have more factual knowledge that most if not all of those saying fitness doesn't increase distance.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Fitness first of all, has many forms. There is the cardiovascular which is just good for your health in general but it also helps with walking 72 holes in a weekend tournament and not fading physically. There is flexibility you can obtain through fitness regimens which can help a person make a longer backswing if they so choose, better wrist hinge, more hip turn etc to possibly create more swing speed and therefore more distance. There is strength training you can do. Adding muscle doesn't necessary increase speed out right, but it does allow you to add more speed and be able to control it. You need stability, strong hands, strong wrists, strong forearms to swing a club north of 115-120 and do it repeatedly and well. That can come from fitness.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > I know personally that I am at my current physical limit speed wise (aka potential distance wise) and I would need to hit the gym with purposeful exercise and weight training to reach a new limit. I would need to strengthen my legs primarily, my core, my hands, my forearms and wrists for sure, to be able to reach a higher ceiling. It is not easy to exactly quantify how much can be gained from fitness efforts alone but it can most definitely be substantial.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > I turn your attention to the long drive guys on tv. They aren't all generally very muscular for no reason. They are all trying to reach their bodies limits and you have to have a good fitness program to do that. Take John Daly for instance. He had speed from both technique and genetics no doubt but you can bet he also got that from getting golf fit through just swinging hard. If he wanted to get to another level, he would have to lose weight, and add strength. He probably wouldn't benefit from much added flexibility but if he did work on that, he could make his swing even longer if he wanted.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > I just can't believe that those of you so against this idea are that naive. You can't possibly. Yes, equipment, swing technique, optimization are a huge part of what can help increase a person's distance but so is purposeful golf related fitness (working out so that you can run a mile in 5 minutes isn't necessarily going to do anything for your swing speed, nor is just bulking up and becoming very muscular, it has to be specific to golf and there are a lot of known ways to improve your swing speed via very specific fitness programs).

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > Stop with that flat-earth silliness. You have ZERO results-based facts to show that anyone on the Tour added any significant distance by adding a fitness/workout regiment.

> > > >

> > > > Again, I believe it's difficult to find examples:

> > > > (a) because almost all of them have golf-specific workout routines before making it on tour. It's basically a modern requirement for most; and

> > > > (b) anyone who makes it on tour being out of shape is very unlikely to suddenly get ripped.

> > > >

> > >

> > > Scott Stallings. In 2018 incorporated Cross Fit workouts and lost 50 pounds. And he went from an out-of-shape Tour player to a very fit player. Zero impact on his driving distance.

> >

> > Yeah, he had quite the transformation. I do find his stats interesting since he _began_ fitness traning in Q2 2018:

> > Driving distance:

> > 2020: 313

> > 2019: 297

> > 2018: 299.7

> > 2017: 297.6

> > 2016: 295.5

> > 2015: 291.8

>

> Lol. Another one of those "inconvenient facts" getting in the way. Also, the boys are absolutely smashing it this year. Finau 335 avg. Do we have new ball technology? New clubs? Can't be, the manufacturers can't get any more distance, right? They're just selling fake distance was the mantra earlier in the thread.

>

> Could it be stronger, smarter, faster? Maybe course layouts and super speed fairways? Maybe, just maybe, a little bit of everything

 

You do realize those numbers support the assertion that fitness did not impact distance? His 2019 distance didn't change from his prior fatso years.

[oikos1]

> @LICC said:

> > @oikos1 said:

> > > @"Ashley Schaeffer" said:

> > > > @LICC said:

> > > > > @"Ashley Schaeffer" said:

> > > > > > @LICC said:

> > > > > > > @clevited said:

> > > > > > > I still can't believe the concept of fitness can make significant increases in swing speed and therefore distance is being debated. I swear that those of you that don't believe that, are also flat earthers.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > I have experience in this, have read about it, researched it and tried to understand it. Does it make me an expert, no, but I think I have more factual knowledge that most if not all of those saying fitness doesn't increase distance.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Fitness first of all, has many forms. There is the cardiovascular which is just good for your health in general but it also helps with walking 72 holes in a weekend tournament and not fading physically. There is flexibility you can obtain through fitness regimens which can help a person make a longer backswing if they so choose, better wrist hinge, more hip turn etc to possibly create more swing speed and therefore more distance. There is strength training you can do. Adding muscle doesn't necessary increase speed out right, but it does allow you to add more speed and be able to control it. You need stability, strong hands, strong wrists, strong forearms to swing a club north of 115-120 and do it repeatedly and well. That can come from fitness.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > I know personally that I am at my current physical limit speed wise (aka potential distance wise) and I would need to hit the gym with purposeful exercise and weight training to reach a new limit. I would need to strengthen my legs primarily, my core, my hands, my forearms and wrists for sure, to be able to reach a higher ceiling. It is not easy to exactly quantify how much can be gained from fitness efforts alone but it can most definitely be substantial.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > I turn your attention to the long drive guys on tv. They aren't all generally very muscular for no reason. They are all trying to reach their bodies limits and you have to have a good fitness program to do that. Take John Daly for instance. He had speed from both technique and genetics no doubt but you can bet he also got that from getting golf fit through just swinging hard. If he wanted to get to another level, he would have to lose weight, and add strength. He probably wouldn't benefit from much added flexibility but if he did work on that, he could make his swing even longer if he wanted.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > I just can't believe that those of you so against this idea are that naive. You can't possibly. Yes, equipment, swing technique, optimization are a huge part of what can help increase a person's distance but so is purposeful golf related fitness (working out so that you can run a mile in 5 minutes isn't necessarily going to do anything for your swing speed, nor is just bulking up and becoming very muscular, it has to be specific to golf and there are a lot of known ways to improve your swing speed via very specific fitness programs).

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Stop with that flat-earth silliness. You have ZERO results-based facts to show that anyone on the Tour added any significant distance by adding a fitness/workout regiment.

> > > > >

> > > > > Again, I believe it's difficult to find examples:

> > > > > (a) because almost all of them have golf-specific workout routines before making it on tour. It's basically a modern requirement for most; and

> > > > > (b) anyone who makes it on tour being out of shape is very unlikely to suddenly get ripped.

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > Scott Stallings. In 2018 incorporated Cross Fit workouts and lost 50 pounds. And he went from an out-of-shape Tour player to a very fit player. Zero impact on his driving distance.

> > >

> > > Yeah, he had quite the transformation. I do find his stats interesting since he _began_ fitness traning in Q2 2018:

> > > Driving distance:

> > > 2020: 313

> > > 2019: 297

> > > 2018: 299.7

> > > 2017: 297.6

> > > 2016: 295.5

> > > 2015: 291.8

> >

> > Lol. Another one of those "inconvenient facts" getting in the way. Also, the boys are absolutely smashing it this year. Finau 335 avg. Do we have new ball technology? New clubs? Can't be, the manufacturers can't get any more distance, right? They're just selling fake distance was the mantra earlier in the thread.

> >

> > Could it be stronger, smarter, faster? Maybe course layouts and super speed fairways? Maybe, just maybe, a little bit of everything

>

> You do realize those numbers support the assertion that fitness did not impact distance? His 2019 distance didn't change from his prior fatso years.

 

 

 

[smashdn]

 

"He really ripped that one, out there 250 yards."

 

Stupid ground game too.

[Ashley Schaeffer]

> @LICC said:

> > @oikos1 said:

> > > @"Ashley Schaeffer" said:

> > > > @LICC said:

> > > > > @"Ashley Schaeffer" said:

> > > > > > @LICC said:

> > > > > > > @clevited said:

> > > > > > > I still can't believe the concept of fitness can make significant increases in swing speed and therefore distance is being debated. I swear that those of you that don't believe that, are also flat earthers.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > I have experience in this, have read about it, researched it and tried to understand it. Does it make me an expert, no, but I think I have more factual knowledge that most if not all of those saying fitness doesn't increase distance.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Fitness first of all, has many forms. There is the cardiovascular which is just good for your health in general but it also helps with walking 72 holes in a weekend tournament and not fading physically. There is flexibility you can obtain through fitness regimens which can help a person make a longer backswing if they so choose, better wrist hinge, more hip turn etc to possibly create more swing speed and therefore more distance. There is strength training you can do. Adding muscle doesn't necessary increase speed out right, but it does allow you to add more speed and be able to control it. You need stability, strong hands, strong wrists, strong forearms to swing a club north of 115-120 and do it repeatedly and well. That can come from fitness.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > I know personally that I am at my current physical limit speed wise (aka potential distance wise) and I would need to hit the gym with purposeful exercise and weight training to reach a new limit. I would need to strengthen my legs primarily, my core, my hands, my forearms and wrists for sure, to be able to reach a higher ceiling. It is not easy to exactly quantify how much can be gained from fitness efforts alone but it can most definitely be substantial.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > I turn your attention to the long drive guys on tv. They aren't all generally very muscular for no reason. They are all trying to reach their bodies limits and you have to have a good fitness program to do that. Take John Daly for instance. He had speed from both technique and genetics no doubt but you can bet he also got that from getting golf fit through just swinging hard. If he wanted to get to another level, he would have to lose weight, and add strength. He probably wouldn't benefit from much added flexibility but if he did work on that, he could make his swing even longer if he wanted.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > I just can't believe that those of you so against this idea are that naive. You can't possibly. Yes, equipment, swing technique, optimization are a huge part of what can help increase a person's distance but so is purposeful golf related fitness (working out so that you can run a mile in 5 minutes isn't necessarily going to do anything for your swing speed, nor is just bulking up and becoming very muscular, it has to be specific to golf and there are a lot of known ways to improve your swing speed via very specific fitness programs).

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Stop with that flat-earth silliness. You have ZERO results-based facts to show that anyone on the Tour added any significant distance by adding a fitness/workout regiment.

> > > > >

> > > > > Again, I believe it's difficult to find examples:

> > > > > (a) because almost all of them have golf-specific workout routines before making it on tour. It's basically a modern requirement for most; and

> > > > > (b) anyone who makes it on tour being out of shape is very unlikely to suddenly get ripped.

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > Scott Stallings. In 2018 incorporated Cross Fit workouts and lost 50 pounds. And he went from an out-of-shape Tour player to a very fit player. Zero impact on his driving distance.

> > >

> > > Yeah, he had quite the transformation. I do find his stats interesting since he _began_ fitness traning in Q2 2018:

> > > Driving distance:

> > > 2020: 313

> > > 2019: 297

> > > 2018: 299.7

> > > 2017: 297.6

> > > 2016: 295.5

> > > 2015: 291.8

> >

> > Lol. Another one of those "inconvenient facts" getting in the way. Also, the boys are absolutely smashing it this year. Finau 335 avg. Do we have new ball technology? New clubs? Can't be, the manufacturers can't get any more distance, right? They're just selling fake distance was the mantra earlier in the thread.

> >

> > Could it be stronger, smarter, faster? Maybe course layouts and super speed fairways? Maybe, just maybe, a little bit of everything

>

> You do realize those numbers support the assertion that fitness did not impact distance? His 2019 distance didn't change from his prior fatso years.

 

You do realize that you can't push a button and transform your body and swing? He started in, what, April 2018? Seems like it's starting to pay off for him.

Then again, what do I know? I'm just another crackpot who believes being stronger can allow one to hit a stationary object harder with a stick.

[Ashley Schaeffer]

double post

 

 

[LICC]

> @"Ashley Schaeffer" said:

> > @LICC said:

> > > @oikos1 said:

> > > > @"Ashley Schaeffer" said:

> > > > > @LICC said:

> > > > > > @"Ashley Schaeffer" said:

> > > > > > > @LICC said:

> > > > > > > > @clevited said:

> > > > > > > > I still can't believe the concept of fitness can make significant increases in swing speed and therefore distance is being debated. I swear that those of you that don't believe that, are also flat earthers.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > I have experience in this, have read about it, researched it and tried to understand it. Does it make me an expert, no, but I think I have more factual knowledge that most if not all of those saying fitness doesn't increase distance.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > Fitness first of all, has many forms. There is the cardiovascular which is just good for your health in general but it also helps with walking 72 holes in a weekend tournament and not fading physically. There is flexibility you can obtain through fitness regimens which can help a person make a longer backswing if they so choose, better wrist hinge, more hip turn etc to possibly create more swing speed and therefore more distance. There is strength training you can do. Adding muscle doesn't necessary increase speed out right, but it does allow you to add more speed and be able to control it. You need stability, strong hands, strong wrists, strong forearms to swing a club north of 115-120 and do it repeatedly and well. That can come from fitness.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > I know personally that I am at my current physical limit speed wise (aka potential distance wise) and I would need to hit the gym with purposeful exercise and weight training to reach a new limit. I would need to strengthen my legs primarily, my core, my hands, my forearms and wrists for sure, to be able to reach a higher ceiling. It is not easy to exactly quantify how much can be gained from fitness efforts alone but it can most definitely be substantial.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > I turn your attention to the long drive guys on tv. They aren't all generally very muscular for no reason. They are all trying to reach their bodies limits and you have to have a good fitness program to do that. Take John Daly for instance. He had speed from both technique and genetics no doubt but you can bet he also got that from getting golf fit through just swinging hard. If he wanted to get to another level, he would have to lose weight, and add strength. He probably wouldn't benefit from much added flexibility but if he did work on that, he could make his swing even longer if he wanted.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > I just can't believe that those of you so against this idea are that naive. You can't possibly. Yes, equipment, swing technique, optimization are a huge part of what can help increase a person's distance but so is purposeful golf related fitness (working out so that you can run a mile in 5 minutes isn't necessarily going to do anything for your swing speed, nor is just bulking up and becoming very muscular, it has to be specific to golf and there are a lot of known ways to improve your swing speed via very specific fitness programs).

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Stop with that flat-earth silliness. You have ZERO results-based facts to show that anyone on the Tour added any significant distance by adding a fitness/workout regiment.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Again, I believe it's difficult to find examples:

> > > > > > (a) because almost all of them have golf-specific workout routines before making it on tour. It's basically a modern requirement for most; and

> > > > > > (b) anyone who makes it on tour being out of shape is very unlikely to suddenly get ripped.

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > Scott Stallings. In 2018 incorporated Cross Fit workouts and lost 50 pounds. And he went from an out-of-shape Tour player to a very fit player. Zero impact on his driving distance.

> > > >

> > > > Yeah, he had quite the transformation. I do find his stats interesting since he _began_ fitness traning in Q2 2018:

> > > > Driving distance:

> > > > 2020: 313

> > > > 2019: 297

> > > > 2018: 299.7

> > > > 2017: 297.6

> > > > 2016: 295.5

> > > > 2015: 291.8

> > >

> > > Lol. Another one of those "inconvenient facts" getting in the way. Also, the boys are absolutely smashing it this year. Finau 335 avg. Do we have new ball technology? New clubs? Can't be, the manufacturers can't get any more distance, right? They're just selling fake distance was the mantra earlier in the thread.

> > >

> > > Could it be stronger, smarter, faster? Maybe course layouts and super speed fairways? Maybe, just maybe, a little bit of everything

> >

> > You do realize those numbers support the assertion that fitness did not impact distance? His 2019 distance didn't change from his prior fatso years.

>

> You do realize that you can't push a button and transform your body and swing? He started in, what, April 2018? Seems like it's starting to pay off for him.

> Then again, what do I know? I'm just another crackpot who believes being stronger can allow one to hit a stationary object harder.

 

He started CrossFit in 2016. Anything else you plan to be completely wrong about?

[Ashley Schaeffer]

> @smashdn said:

>

>

> "He really ripped that one, out there 250 yards."

>

> Stupid ground game too.

 

That is what peak athleticism looks like.

[Sean2]

I think being in athletic condition can improve one's distance, however having a great golf swing helps too.

 

One of my regular playing partners is a 24 year old young man, he works, doesn't hit the gym, rarely practices because of work, has been playing for 4 years, is a 3 HI and his ball speed is in the mid-180s. He is about 5'11" and 175 pounds (for example, last Sunday 460 yard hole, he hit driver/pitching wedge). Perhaps one component of distance is natural ability? A raw talent that most golfers don't possess? I don't know. I knew a semi-pro football player...who was built like a linebacker because he was a linebacker...who couldn't drive the ball 180 yards. Sure, being in good condition helps with distance, but I don't think it is the only component.

 

This has probably already been pointed out, but as to the professionals and distance gains, a lot has to do with course conditions (some venues cut and roll the fairways because prodigious drives make for good TV), and advances in technology.

 

Regardless of the "conditioning" question being a major factor in distance, it behooves all of us to stay in shape whether we see those distance gains or not. :-)

 

[clevited]

> @"Ashley Schaeffer" said:

> > @LICC said:

> > > @oikos1 said:

> > > > @"Ashley Schaeffer" said:

> > > > > @LICC said:

> > > > > > @"Ashley Schaeffer" said:

> > > > > > > @LICC said:

> > > > > > > > @clevited said:

> > > > > > > > I still can't believe the concept of fitness can make significant increases in swing speed and therefore distance is being debated. I swear that those of you that don't believe that, are also flat earthers.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > I have experience in this, have read about it, researched it and tried to understand it. Does it make me an expert, no, but I think I have more factual knowledge that most if not all of those saying fitness doesn't increase distance.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > Fitness first of all, has many forms. There is the cardiovascular which is just good for your health in general but it also helps with walking 72 holes in a weekend tournament and not fading physically. There is flexibility you can obtain through fitness regimens which can help a person make a longer backswing if they so choose, better wrist hinge, more hip turn etc to possibly create more swing speed and therefore more distance. There is strength training you can do. Adding muscle doesn't necessary increase speed out right, but it does allow you to add more speed and be able to control it. You need stability, strong hands, strong wrists, strong forearms to swing a club north of 115-120 and do it repeatedly and well. That can come from fitness.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > I know personally that I am at my current physical limit speed wise (aka potential distance wise) and I would need to hit the gym with purposeful exercise and weight training to reach a new limit. I would need to strengthen my legs primarily, my core, my hands, my forearms and wrists for sure, to be able to reach a higher ceiling. It is not easy to exactly quantify how much can be gained from fitness efforts alone but it can most definitely be substantial.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > I turn your attention to the long drive guys on tv. They aren't all generally very muscular for no reason. They are all trying to reach their bodies limits and you have to have a good fitness program to do that. Take John Daly for instance. He had speed from both technique and genetics no doubt but you can bet he also got that from getting golf fit through just swinging hard. If he wanted to get to another level, he would have to lose weight, and add strength. He probably wouldn't benefit from much added flexibility but if he did work on that, he could make his swing even longer if he wanted.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > I just can't believe that those of you so against this idea are that naive. You can't possibly. Yes, equipment, swing technique, optimization are a huge part of what can help increase a person's distance but so is purposeful golf related fitness (working out so that you can run a mile in 5 minutes isn't necessarily going to do anything for your swing speed, nor is just bulking up and becoming very muscular, it has to be specific to golf and there are a lot of known ways to improve your swing speed via very specific fitness programs).

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Stop with that flat-earth silliness. You have ZERO results-based facts to show that anyone on the Tour added any significant distance by adding a fitness/workout regiment.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Again, I believe it's difficult to find examples:

> > > > > > (a) because almost all of them have golf-specific workout routines before making it on tour. It's basically a modern requirement for most; and

> > > > > > (b) anyone who makes it on tour being out of shape is very unlikely to suddenly get ripped.

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > Scott Stallings. In 2018 incorporated Cross Fit workouts and lost 50 pounds. And he went from an out-of-shape Tour player to a very fit player. Zero impact on his driving distance.

> > > >

> > > > Yeah, he had quite the transformation. I do find his stats interesting since he _began_ fitness traning in Q2 2018:

> > > > Driving distance:

> > > > 2020: 313

> > > > 2019: 297

> > > > 2018: 299.7

> > > > 2017: 297.6

> > > > 2016: 295.5

> > > > 2015: 291.8

> > >

> > > Lol. Another one of those "inconvenient facts" getting in the way. Also, the boys are absolutely smashing it this year. Finau 335 avg. Do we have new ball technology? New clubs? Can't be, the manufacturers can't get any more distance, right? They're just selling fake distance was the mantra earlier in the thread.

> > >

> > > Could it be stronger, smarter, faster? Maybe course layouts and super speed fairways? Maybe, just maybe, a little bit of everything

> >

> > You do realize those numbers support the assertion that fitness did not impact distance? His 2019 distance didn't change from his prior fatso years.

>

> You do realize that you can't push a button and transform your body and swing? He started in, what, April 2018? Seems like it's starting to pay off for him.

> Then again, what do I know? I'm just another crackpot who believes being stronger can allow one to hit a stationary object harder with a stick.

 

I don't think he is interested in a civil discussion. Best to not feed him.

[Ashley Schaeffer]

> @LICC said:

> > @"Ashley Schaeffer" said:

> > > @LICC said:

> > > > @oikos1 said:

> > > > > @"Ashley Schaeffer" said:

> > > > > > @LICC said:

> > > > > > > @"Ashley Schaeffer" said:

> > > > > > > > @LICC said:

> > > > > > > > > @clevited said:

> > > > > > > > > I still can't believe the concept of fitness can make significant increases in swing speed and therefore distance is being debated. I swear that those of you that don't believe that, are also flat earthers.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > I have experience in this, have read about it, researched it and tried to understand it. Does it make me an expert, no, but I think I have more factual knowledge that most if not all of those saying fitness doesn't increase distance.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > Fitness first of all, has many forms. There is the cardiovascular which is just good for your health in general but it also helps with walking 72 holes in a weekend tournament and not fading physically. There is flexibility you can obtain through fitness regimens which can help a person make a longer backswing if they so choose, better wrist hinge, more hip turn etc to possibly create more swing speed and therefore more distance. There is strength training you can do. Adding muscle doesn't necessary increase speed out right, but it does allow you to add more speed and be able to control it. You need stability, strong hands, strong wrists, strong forearms to swing a club north of 115-120 and do it repeatedly and well. That can come from fitness.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > I know personally that I am at my current physical limit speed wise (aka potential distance wise) and I would need to hit the gym with purposeful exercise and weight training to reach a new limit. I would need to strengthen my legs primarily, my core, my hands, my forearms and wrists for sure, to be able to reach a higher ceiling. It is not easy to exactly quantify how much can be gained from fitness efforts alone but it can most definitely be substantial.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > I turn your attention to the long drive guys on tv. They aren't all generally very muscular for no reason. They are all trying to reach their bodies limits and you have to have a good fitness program to do that. Take John Daly for instance. He had speed from both technique and genetics no doubt but you can bet he also got that from getting golf fit through just swinging hard. If he wanted to get to another level, he would have to lose weight, and add strength. He probably wouldn't benefit from much added flexibility but if he did work on that, he could make his swing even longer if he wanted.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > I just can't believe that those of you so against this idea are that naive. You can't possibly. Yes, equipment, swing technique, optimization are a huge part of what can help increase a person's distance but so is purposeful golf related fitness (working out so that you can run a mile in 5 minutes isn't necessarily going to do anything for your swing speed, nor is just bulking up and becoming very muscular, it has to be specific to golf and there are a lot of known ways to improve your swing speed via very specific fitness programs).

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > Stop with that flat-earth silliness. You have ZERO results-based facts to show that anyone on the Tour added any significant distance by adding a fitness/workout regiment.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Again, I believe it's difficult to find examples:

> > > > > > > (a) because almost all of them have golf-specific workout routines before making it on tour. It's basically a modern requirement for most; and

> > > > > > > (b) anyone who makes it on tour being out of shape is very unlikely to suddenly get ripped.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Scott Stallings. In 2018 incorporated Cross Fit workouts and lost 50 pounds. And he went from an out-of-shape Tour player to a very fit player. Zero impact on his driving distance.

> > > > >

> > > > > Yeah, he had quite the transformation. I do find his stats interesting since he _began_ fitness traning in Q2 2018:

> > > > > Driving distance:

> > > > > 2020: 313

> > > > > 2019: 297

> > > > > 2018: 299.7

> > > > > 2017: 297.6

> > > > > 2016: 295.5

> > > > > 2015: 291.8

> > > >

> > > > Lol. Another one of those "inconvenient facts" getting in the way. Also, the boys are absolutely smashing it this year. Finau 335 avg. Do we have new ball technology? New clubs? Can't be, the manufacturers can't get any more distance, right? They're just selling fake distance was the mantra earlier in the thread.

> > > >

> > > > Could it be stronger, smarter, faster? Maybe course layouts and super speed fairways? Maybe, just maybe, a little bit of everything

> > >

> > > You do realize those numbers support the assertion that fitness did not impact distance? His 2019 distance didn't change from his prior fatso years.

> >

> > You do realize that you can't push a button and transform your body and swing? He started in, what, April 2018? Seems like it's starting to pay off for him.

> > Then again, what do I know? I'm just another crackpot who believes being stronger can allow one to hit a stationary object harder.

>

> He started CrossFit in 2016. Anything else you plan to be completely wrong about?

 

Interesting. I read on his twitter that he was 50 lbs lighter at the Valspar in 2019 than he was in 2018. https://www.golf.com/Instruction/2019/04/04/pga-tour-player-scott-stallings-weight-loss

Maybe he started his transformation earlier, and didn't drop the weight until later? Or, maybe he's wrong. We should let him know if it's the latter.

I did find this interesting from the April 2019 article: "He hit the gym, and so Scott Stallings’ weight-loss journey _began_. Almost a year later, Stallings is 50 lbs. lighter and in the best physical shape of his career."

[15th Club]

OMG thank you whoever posted that fabulous video of Portmarnock in magnificent condition.

 

Shell's [Wonderful World of Golf](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shell%27s_Wonderful_World_of_Golf "Wonderful World of Golf") was one of the great features in the history of televised golf.