How about a rules question?

[rogolf]

That's why I structured my question to include melting on the cart path. In the grand scheme of things, does it really matter? I'm giving the player free relief (drop in relief area) regardless of what I deem the melting ice cream to be - temporary water, immovable obstruction or in or on a movable obstruction.

[Hawkeye77]

So free drop if milk is processed and tough ____ if a cow of its own volition lactates a puddle of milk on the ground that you land in? Udderly confounding.

[Sawgrass]

The only problem being that there is no relief “area” to drop in for a movable obstruction.

[Sawgrass]

I see the melted ice cream mess as remaining a manufactured substance due to the artificial introduction of additional, unique substances in ice cream. The natural existence of minerals in water does not similarly change the composition of the substance.

[rogolf]

See Rule 15.2a for a ball which is "in or on a movable obstruction". Is the ball not "in or on" the melting ice cream?

[Sawgrass]

You’re right, I was thinking of the case of a ball which rolled up against a melting scoop. Deeming it an io would allow the drop, calling it a mo would not.

[rogolf]

As the referee on site, it would be difficult for me to rule that a ball that rolled up against a melting scoop was not "in or on" a movable obstruction; I would permit the drop. Not worth arguing about!

[Mr. Bean]

So beer, coffee and tea on the ground are also obstructions...

I find it way easier to treat all liquids except water in the very same manner, that is as LI's or TW at the option of the player. Once in solid form they would be obstructions.

[Newby]

Seems reasonable

[Dpavs]

I'm not sold yet on the premise that you can simply treat any liquid the same as you would water. I see a distinction between water which can and often does occur naturally and things like beer, melted ice cream or what have you, which never naturally occur on the course. So the question to me remains to be is interference from a substance other than water on the course treated as an immovable obstruction or a movable obstruction?

From my understanding of the two-

An Immovable Obstruction is any obstruction that cannot be moved without unreasonable effort or without damaging the obstruction or the course, and Otherwise does not meet the definition of a movable obstruction.

A Movable Obstruction is one that can be moved without damaging the obstruction or the course. Any cleaning or removal of the substance would likely be destructive.

So the answer as to how you treat the sustance may need to be determined on a case by case basis and depend in part on the substance in question and the quantity of it in order to determine the reasonableness of the effort required to remove the substance

[rogolf]

As above, if the ball is "in or on" the obstruction, it doesn't matter if the obstruction is movable or immovable - the relief procedure involves a reference point, a one club-length relief area and a drop.

[Sawgrass]

This link provides the following analysis: http://www.yalescientific.org/2013/12/the-chemistry-of-ice-cream-the-scoop-on-the-unique-properties-of-a-popular-dessert/

 

Combining the typical ingredients for ice cream — heavy cream, milk, sugar, and vanilla — yields a mixture in which all three states of matter — solid, liquid, and gas — coexist. The final product consists of small air bubbles representing up to fifty percent of the mixture by volume, globules of fat derived from milk, and ice crystals.

[Dpavs]

Right, right... but you still have to proceed under either Rule 15 or 16 depending on whether it is an MO or IO and the points of relief are slightly different aren't they?

In the case of rule 16 - one club length from the nearest point of complete relief.

In the case of rule 15 - one club length measured from approximately right under where the ball originally lie.

[Mr. Bean]

How would you move beer from the ground?

The outcome for the player seems to be exactly the same whether that beer on the ground is treated as IO or TW. However, TW only interferes if it is visible when the player takes his stance but what about an IO, does it have to be visible or is it enough that the ground is sticky because of that beer and the soles get that stickiness?

[Mr. Bean]

' a mixture in which all three states of matter — solid, liquid, and gas — coexist'

Not after the ice cream has melted, then there are only liquid and gas, and even gas can be disputed as it has dissolved into the liquid. So effectively there is only one phase and that is liquid (to be precise an emulsion as fat is not soluble in water but only miscible).

But I do not see how any of this helps in determining how ice cream should be handled from the perspective of RoG.

[Dpavs]

Of course it depends on the volume we are talking about but you could brush it away with a club or wipe it away with a towel to name two possible ways. As I have already indicated, I do not believe you can treat it as Temporary Water imo. As for the ground conditions due to the presence of a foreign substance... we still end up talking about abnormal ground conditions and rely on rule 16 for relief, right?

[Mr. Bean]

No, a player cannot declare any part of the course as AGC so the decision how to handle such issues must be based on the Rules.

I would very much like to see you brush beer away from the fairway with a towel...

[Dpavs]

As you know I never said a player could declare any part of the course as having an AGC.. and of course such a determination would be made in accordance with the rules. A player can of course always ask for a ruling if they feel the situation warrants it. In regards to using a towel to "wipe up" not brush away the beer... I do find a nice exchange of banter amusing. .