The golf grip - novice to novice

[Justsomeguy]

30 minutes ago, chipa said:

20 mph are the typical numbers I get. It's also posible that most amateurs never have a correct grip nor sequence that enables them to hit efficiently, after all one doesn't have to be especially strong or athletically gifted to hit the ball a far way - watching professional women play in person is something that will confirm this for most I believe. BTW, I expect most pros could swing in the 120's if they practiced and swung out of their shoes like Bryson.

Genuinely, no sarcasm, I want a pic of your grip so I can try it.

[chipa]

2 minutes ago, Justsomeguy said:

Genuinely, no sarcasm, I want a pic of your grip so I can try it.

 

It's not just the grip buddy as I mentioned, its the backswing sequence too. What's you get those two down then with practice the swing really starts to connect and the body starts contributing to the speed greatly. My grip is nothing special a modified strong standard overlap but I leave a little room between the hands. My right hand is weaker than most amateurs - I do think this does help me get into efficient arm and hand positions. 

[Justsomeguy]

4 hours ago, chipa said:

 

It's not just the grip buddy as I mentioned, its the backswing sequence too. What's you get those two down then with practice the swing really starts to connect and the body starts contributing to the speed greatly. My grip is nothing special a modified strong standard overlap but I leave a little room between the hands. My right hand is weaker than most amateurs - I do think this does help me get into efficient arm and hand positions. 

Whichever, I gotta see it.

[chipa]

On 8/18/2020 at 10:25 PM, Justsomeguy said:

Whichever, I gotta see it.

 

I use the Mike Austin grip, right hand on the bottom of the grip and left hand on the top. It makes it easy to push the arm and left hand back. There was a video on Youtube where he showed how doing this also makes the right knee turn in a little to the target, which is a big source of my power I believe(braced right leg). I don't think the video is up anymore.

Edited August 20, 2020 by chipa

[chipa]

@Justsomeguy

 

I feel that it's quite possible that Mike Austin's recommendation to have the left hand on top of the grip is the real secret to being able to reach my left hand and shoulder across the front of my body and keep the hands connected, however, for some reason it feels odd at times.

 

Also, I don't think shoulder turn but rather turn/push then reach my left hand, arm shoulder back in the opposite direction of the target. This feels more linear than a shoulder turn, which would imply pulling the right shoulder back (a very sure way to destroy a good swing). I also pull to start my downswing and when I have the backswing sequence correct my right leg already feels like it is in a position to move to the target at the top of my backswing, in other words I don't have to wait for anything I can swing from the top. That is another source of power I believe. With the hands connected and the lower body ready at the top of the backswing one can generate the maximum power their body is capable of, which I believe it a lot more than people think.

[chipa]

On 8/6/2020 at 4:32 PM, Ri_Redneck said:

I have the Bobby Jones video collection and there is a time when he talks about "loosening his left hand at the top to get the club in the right position" IF I can find it online, I will post it. I wouldn't really call it regripping though because his hand didn't change position, only loosened and the tightened back up.

BT

 

I have been thinking about this and honestly I think I may know what he is referring to because sometimes the club slips a little in my left hand which I think is a natural consequence of both hands trying to work together. This only happens for me sometimes when I'm trying to get my right hand in a "good" position early which could cause the left to adjust as needed. This kind of makes sense after all why would Bobby Jones let the left hand grip slip a little as he wouldn't probably be able to judge how much the face turned if that was his goal, rather his right hand was getting in the proper position to make a powerful strike through the ball. 

Edited September 3, 2020 by chipa

[Ri_Redneck]

On 9/3/2020 at 2:02 PM, chipa said:

 

I have been thinking about this and honestly I think I may know what he is referring to because sometimes the club slips a little in my left hand which I think is a natural consequence of both hands trying to work together. This only happens for me sometimes when I'm trying to get my right hand in a "good" position early which could cause the left to adjust as needed. This kind of makes sense after all why would Bobby Jones let the left hand grip slip a little as he wouldn't probably be able to judge how much the face turned if that was his goal, rather his right hand was getting in the proper position to make a powerful strike through the ball. 

I couldn't find the video online, so I just uploaded it to my Youtube channel. He covers the grip topic we're discussing starting at 4:29.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y8cWCYcXbog

 

BT

 

Edited September 6, 2020 by Ri_Redneck

[chipa]

1 hour ago, Ri_Redneck said:

I couldn't find the video online, so I just uploaded it to my Youtube channel. He covers the grip topic we're discussing starting at 4:29.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y8cWCYcXbog

 

BT

 

 

Thanks I'll check it out.

[mgoblue83]

I don't see grip making a big difference in swing speed but a lot of amateurs don't match their grip and release patterns correctly which makes it extremely difficult to square the face at impact.

 

I believe most amateurs would be better off matching a grip to their naturally flawed swing than trying to force a pretty swing that their body isn't able to do.

[chipa]

1 hour ago, mgoblue83 said:

I don't see grip making a big difference in swing speed but a lot of amateurs don't match their grip and release patterns correctly which makes it extremely difficult to square the face at impact.

 

I believe most amateurs would be better off matching a grip to their naturally flawed swing than trying to force a pretty swing that their body isn't able to do.

 

I have personally seen a huge difference in velocity but then again I started golf as an adult with my arms and hands flailing about until I learned it was possible to have them biomechanically connected.

 

I also think that very good players who started as children and amateurs who started as adults are at the extreme perspectives regarding this matter - the good player doesn't understand how anyone could swing without having the arms and hands connected, and the amateur can't understand that it's possible to have a swing with the arms and hands connected to the point that timing is greatly minimized. Their is much evidence to the latter in addition to my own experience such as high hc generally agreeing that it's bad to turn the hips early in the downswing and that one needs to wait for the hands to drop etc.

[coops]

The best grip instruction i've seen in any book is Steve Elkington's "Five Fundamentals of Golf"

 

You can see the chapter here and download it

https://www.secretgolf.com/get-better/grip/

 

"I admit to being almost obsessed with the grip. Soon after I took up golf, I used to walk the three miles to school with a twelve-inch piece of a club, just a grip on a cut-off shaft. And I’d pull that grip out of my backpack just to practice holding on to it. Alex Mercer had given me an intriguing thought: that I could have the best grip of anyone in the world, better even than Jack Nicklaus’s.

In time, hands powerfully but thoughtfully formed on a club began to appeal to me on both an artistic and a professional level. I have a bronze of Harry Vardon’s grip (the 1995 Vardon Trophy) in a glass case behind my desk, and I look at it often. It’s a wonderful reminder of where it all started.

I remember watching Ben Crenshaw give a clinic in Austin, Texas, in which he never got past how you put your hands on a club. Two hours, and that’s all he talked about. He got so into it he forgot to hit any balls. Probably most of the people there were absolutely aghast, not believing that they were listening to all this about only one part of the golf game. But I thought it was the most interesting talk I’d ever heard about golf technique.

The best grippers—Crenshaw, Nick Faldo, Jack Burke, and my coach, Alex Mercer, for example—give the impression that the club is a toothpick in their hands. People tell me that the club looks very small in my hands, too. That doesn’t necessarily relate to the size of the hands; in fact, I have relatively short fingers, and wear only a medium-large-size glove. No, the illusion of a tiny stick in giant mitts given by a good grip is a result of the hands dominating the club."

 

 

[chipa]

Today like most days I practice my swing in my apartment - mostly the takeaway and a short swing w/o a ball with the goal of getting my hands connected. This has been my goal lately as my radar has demonstrated when I do it correctly I get about a 20% speed increase all things being equal. I have been studying Bobby Jones and his unusual forearm and hands at address and has have led me to believe the hands and forearm opposes eachother biomechanically during the takeaway somehow as opposed to just "riding along" or "working together". 

 

Anyway I got the takeaway sequence down today  like I have on many occasions beforehand even though I can't duplicate at will as of yet and no matter my stance, normal, feet touching, super wide (5'), one legged, taking turns with one leg 4' behind me, even sitting down and none of it made a difference in my swing biometrics and could make a decent swing in all the positions.

 

I think it's kind of a shame that teaching pros don't talk about this because imo it must be the most essential aspect of a repeating swing. 

[golfsticks]

Nice to see a discussion about gripping the club.  Elkington has a great hold on the club, all professionals do,  but may be easier to understand pictorially.    These 2 luggage pieces will more than likely elicit 2 different reactive approaches to securing the handle to the hand.   One from underneath, one from on top.  

 

 

 

 

Edited September 8, 2020 by golfsticks

[nsxguy]

17 hours ago, chipa said:

Today like most days I practice my swing in my apartment - mostly the takeaway and a short swing w/o a ball with the goal of getting my hands connected. This has been my goal lately as my radar has demonstrated when I do it correctly I get about a 20% speed increase all things being equal. I have been studying Bobby Jones and his unusual forearm and hands at address and has have led me to believe the hands and forearm opposes eachother biomechanically during the takeaway somehow as opposed to just "riding along" or "working together". 

 

Anyway I got the takeaway sequence down today  like I have on many occasions beforehand even though I can't duplicate at will as of yet and no matter my stance, normal, feet touching, super wide (5'), one legged, taking turns with one leg 4' behind me, even sitting down and none of it made a difference in my swing biometrics and could make a decent swing in all the positions.

 

I think it's kind of a shame that teaching pros don't talk about this because imo it must be the most essential aspect of a repeating swing. 

 

Agree with @Justsomeguy I want see it too. I'm trying to visualize how a 20% increase in swing speed (or a 20% decrease if you prefer) can happen without a seriously "confused" swing with one grip that doesn't occur with the other grip.

 

From 100 mph to 120 ? Or 100mph to 80. Just can't see it.

 

36 minutes ago, golfsticks said:

Nice to see a discussion about gripping the club.  Elkington has a great hold on the club, all professionals do,  but may be easier to understand pictorially.    These 2 luggage pieces will more than likely elicit 2 different reactive approaches to securing the handle to the hand.   One from underneath, one from on top.  

 

 

 

 

 

"One from underneath, one from on top" ?

 

I guess it's me. I don't see a difference. I slide my 4 fingers under the grip of either case and close my hand.  ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[chipa]

1 hour ago, nsxguy said:

 

Agree with @Justsomeguy I want see it too. I'm trying to visualize how a 20% increase in swing speed (or a 20% decrease if you prefer) can happen without a seriously "confused" swing with one grip that doesn't occur with the other grip.

 

From 100 mph to 120 ? Or 100mph to 80. Just can't see it.

 

 

 

I don't post videos as of yet I'm 55 I think that is for the newer generations. If you don't believe me I understand. 

[nsxguy]

19 minutes ago, chipa said:

 

I don't post videos as of yet I'm 55 I think that is for the newer generations. If you don't believe me I understand. 

 

No worries. I don't disbelieve you. Like I said, I just can't "see" it. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[chipa]

On 9/6/2020 at 3:13 PM, Ri_Redneck said:

I couldn't find the video online, so I just uploaded it to my Youtube channel. He covers the grip topic we're discussing starting at 4:29.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y8cWCYcXbog

 

BT

 

 

Nice video. BTW, I wasn't thinking of letting the fingers open a little at the top of the backswing as letting go of the club, more like twisting of the club in the left hand and letting parts of the right hand completely off the club.

 

BTW, the fact that Jones let his fingers open a little at the top is very informative, because I find I do that too, which supposedly goes against convention that the club is primarily gripped in the last three fingers. I think it shows how important the left thumb is in the swing. In my particular case when I am swinging well with a lot of right side and arm extension I feel like the right hand is swinging the left thumb.

[80sFredriksson]

is this correct about the right hand pressure with the thumb and index finger and keeping it throughout the swing? 

 

[Ri_Redneck]

On 9/12/2020 at 1:36 AM, 80sFredriksson said:

is this correct about the right hand pressure with the thumb and index finger and keeping it throughout the swing? 

 

It doesn't work for me to keep it throughout the swing. It gets tighter as I move into impact. I get the best results thinking "push back with the left hand" to start the backswing. The right hand is there, but very passive (in my mind). Once I start the downswing, I am still swinging the club primarily with my left hand, but the right hand slowly becomes more influential. However, it never overrides the left. It simply aids in the punch at the bottom of the swing with a rock-skipping motion.

 

BT

Edited September 15, 2020 by Ri_Redneck

[chipa]

Nice video, what a sweetheart. It's always a good idea I think for guys to watch women professional swings ever so often as they are generally a lesson in how superior technique prevails instead of brute force.

[chipa]

After continuing to investigate and understand my grip problems as well as others I read recently from more than once source that the right hand should never pull back to start the swing. I believe this is why I feel when I am swinging well that my hands/forearm feel like they are opposing a little at address.

 

Also, regarding pulling the right hand back I believe this is a common occurrence of people that pull their right hip back as well thus not allowing the left shoulder to adduct which also makes it difficult to get the back of the left hand cupped at the top of the backswing w/o some other type of manipulation. In fact imo opinion it is very rare to see a high hc with good left shoulder adduction, even if they turn their shoulders a lot. It seems that poor takeaway/backswing mechanics is a culprit of the grip coming apart too.

[chipa]

On 9/8/2020 at 11:19 AM, nsxguy said:

 

Agree with @Justsomeguy I want see it too. I'm trying to visualize how a 20% increase in swing speed (or a 20% decrease if you prefer) can happen without a seriously "confused" swing with one grip that doesn't occur with the other grip.

 

From 100 mph to 120 ? Or 100mph to 80. Just can't see it.

 

 

"One from underneath, one from on top" ?

 

I guess it's me. I don't see a difference. I slide my 4 fingers under the grip of either case and close my hand.  ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

@Justsomeguy

 

I thought I'd point out it wasn't my grip that was causing such an increase in my speed, it was actually the left shoulder adduction I believe. I like most amateurs have very little shoulder adduction in the backswing, something that I have been trying to improve ever since I read a scientific report comparing pro golfers to amateurs where the number one difference in the swing is the amount of shoulder adduciton. However, getting the left shoulder adducted in the backswing is not something that apparently is too natural, after all it is something that happens after the takeaway starts because the left arm and has to turn in and raise somewhat before the left shoulder can be pushed away from the chest(adduction). However, just recently I changed my stance a little after my brother pointed out something in Arnold Palmer's hips during the swing that got me thinking about a Shawn Clements video concerning the hips. Basically I open my hips, close my shoulders compared to my hips to make it easy to turn and get the back of my right hip pointed at the target during the backswing and push it to the target to start the downswing - this basically locks my legs down and gives them a very restricted movement. With this stable leg and hip position it now is a lot easier to push my shoulder away from the chest starting at 3 oclock. My 7 iron velocity is around 90 compared to 65 to 75 w/o doing this. BTW, my hands do feel a lot more connected as they should because since they are farther away from the body there is less to get in the way(shoulders, chest).