Nearest Point of relief seems very hard for people to understand. Bizarre interaction

[Lincoln_Arcadia]

I usually let the beginners know they also have an “unplayable” option then proceed to explain the three cases if the NP or “play as it lies” look pretty hopeless.

Free drops are rarely that. People are such sticklers to keep their scores low at all costs even if by a stroke a round. They really should put a shot clock on these types of situations.

[Mr. Bean]

' They really should put a shot clock on these types of situations.'

And who exactly are 'they' and who would time those situations..?

[Lincoln_Arcadia]

Oops. Didn’t mean to offend...

They as in the powers that be, USGA R&A.

Timed by the players as soon as the ball is reached?

I’m not suggesting to rush, but if there are three groups on a par 5 tee box behind you, something is off.

[Mr. Bean]

I am sure you have good and pure intentions here but let us be honest, right?

If there are three groups behind you waiting, one or even two cases of finding a free relief from Abnormal Course Conditions is hardly the reason but your group has been slow already. And IF that ACC relief situation IS the reason, what keeps your group from waiving the group behind to play through while you and your group are pondering the correct spot to drop?

Things are often much easier if you do not make then harder on purpose.

[Lincoln_Arcadia]

Slow play is often not limited to one group.

[Mr. Bean]

And..?

[Lincoln_Arcadia]

Fast play and ready golf should be taught first.

When you find yourself needing to drop, maybe move up a set of tees and play easier to hit clubs rather than finding yourself in hazards, obstacles and such.

There’s just so much that’s wrong with slowing play down over a single stroke when most people doing it are shooting 10-35 strokes over par.

Of course, during a tournament we expect this, but ordinary play? Makes no sense to make everyone miserable for whatever stakes are played per hole?

[SNIPERBBB]

Nobody is making anyone do anything in casual play. The USGA SWAT team isn't going to show up and make you drop correctly. Most play outside of tournaments in the US aren't played by anything resembling the RoG to start with.

 

Only thing that really slows people down rule wise around here is when we get big rains is trying to find a dry spot to drop on for casual water.

[Nels55]

quote: "There’s just so much that’s wrong with slowing play down over a single stroke when most people doing it are shooting 10-35 strokes over par."

I am playing for my handicap and I must play by the rules every shot as I want my handicap to be as accurate as possible. The nearest point of relief rule in particular is a time waster and is completely unnecessary. It also tends to penalize a person who knows the rule and plays by it. Not to mention sometimes making the person who calls it on another player during a tournament the bad guy.

[SNIPERBBB]

How does it waste time? Where the drop is the left side of the path in almost every case for right handers.

 

It doesn't penalize people eiher unless you want to say it's easier to hit off the path than in the rough. Just because you'd rather play from somewhere else isn't a penalty.

Again, you can't make the argument to change the rules because other people aren't following them. They are irrelevant unless theyre in your group then you must call them out on it or come to this forum and whine about it.

[2bGood]

I am not sure how the nearest Point of relief is a 'time waster'. The typical drop does not actually require measurement (ie from a sprinkler head) and takes well under 10 seconds. You are literally just picking up a ball, moving a bit and dropping it.

More complex drops where the NOPR is not clear, take well under a minute - take your stance twice, place tees and measure.

If you just let people drop 'where ever' it would not speed up play in any appreciable way. Slow guys would still be slow and fast guys would still be fast.

 

[davep043]

In my opinion, its not a time waster in a vast majority of cases. I can determine two potential relief locations and measure accurately enough to determine the proper one in a minute or less, 99% of the time. Its not "unnecessary", its absolutely logical to determine a single relief area, allowing only the shortest possible movement of the ball, if someone wants free relief. It is necessary to adhere as closely as reasonably possible to one of the most basic principles of golf, "Play the ball as it lies", while allowing some flexibility for artificial stuff on an otherwise (semi-)natural playing field. If a player wants choices, he's more than welcome to take unplayable lie relief. And I have no problem helping other people learn the rules, even in a tournament setting where the rules may have negative consequences to a player's score. Oddly enough, I have found that most other players respect someone who understands the rules.

[Nels55]

Qoute: "They are irrelevant unless theyre in your group then you must call them out on it or come to this forum and whine about it."

I am expressing my opinion and I have explained several times why I feel the way that I do about this. I do not appreciate your whining comment. Perhaps you are the one who is whining?

[SNIPERBBB]

Well I didn't make the comment to be appreciated.

Your chief complaint seems to be about other people, not the rule itself. Which is apparently the new purpose of this subforum.

[Mr. Bean]

You are absolutely right! People who play by the Rules often lose strokes compared to people who cheat or otherwise do not play by the Rules.

But have you ever thought how you would draw the line in your proposal? I mean, how far can I drop my ball from the cart path if I am allowed to choose that spot at my will? When we go by the book the limits are there, always. In your proposal one can choose one's own limits and that is not golf. What you are trying to achieve here is that once you make a bad shot you do not have to carry the responsibilities.

However, I have a great solution for your 'time waster' problem. Play your ball as it lies! Always! Never take a drop and you will save a lot of time! On the other hand you will probably lose some strokes but what is that compared to the great achievement in time saving, huh?

[Lincoln_Arcadia]

Right, most of the wasted time is arguing Hahaha!

What’s particularly funny is we all know the rules on this forum and argue. What about the time wasted trying to “teach” someone the rules on the course?

Free drops just, aren’t.

[Nels55]

My proposal is essentially the rule as it is without the nearest point of relief qualifier. So you make a valid point the some folks will still cheat by taking more then 1 club length from the relief point. I think that this case will be a fairly small sample size though. Actually based on what I have seen a lot of average golfers not knowing the rule will take one club length from where the ball is actually taking less then the allowed relief. So in that case the person who knows the rule will actually have an advantage.

And yes playing by the rules often puts one at a disadvantage. I simply think that this is one case where that disadvantage could be done away with without any negative effect on the game.

I don't see any point in your last paragraph? The time waster in this case is totally unnecessary and adds nothing to the game. However if I golfed only with golfers like you who understand and apply the rule correctly then it would be a lot easier to live with and I doubt we would be having this conversation. Anyway I will continue to do my best to play by the rules and to protect the field in tournaments as I don't see any possibility of this rule getting changed any time soon!

[Sawgrass]

" I have explained several times why I feel the way that I do about this."

 

How many times before it's fair to call it whining?

[Lincoln_Arcadia]

I think my point is if you have to stop and think about it and not just automatically do it, there’s something else wrong?

It shouldn’t take more than a few seconds in practice, but unfortunately it does in some cases. Those are the cases where I think it’s a waste of time.

[SNIPERBBB]

Who needs one club length when you can drop wherever you want? You have to have some point of reference.

[Mr. Bean]

'My proposal is essentially the rule as it is without the nearest point of relief qualifier. '

Please explain in detail how would your rule work. You just drop where you want, is that it?

[Lincoln_Arcadia]

Right, I’m not going to penalize someone who’s score doesn’t matter to me when they do this.

If someone wishes to learn the proper rules, they’ll learn and know it. The instructors who taught the kids to play, had them practice drops for a week at the practice grounds. Every one of them knew exactly what to do on the course.

[SNIPERBBB]

Just because you have to think about something doesn't make something wrong. It's natural tendency for people to do things right, or try and get the most favorable drop or sometimes even both. Golf is a counterintuitive game and reflec judgements aren't always right.

[Nels55]

I explain my proposal and someone writes back bringing up a point or two that I believe I can answer so I respond back. That is the purpose of such a forum as this is it not?

[2bGood]

I am trying to be as empathetic to your argument as I can, but if you eliminated all the rules that required thought in golf, I am not sure what you would be left with. You may end up with a much more pure form of the game though, as drops of any kind would be eliminated, marking balls would be gone (on the green or otherwise) and it would be simply "hit the ball until it is in the hole"

[Sawgrass]

It almost sounds as if you’re answering a question with a question.

But if you think there are those here who still don’t understand your perspective, keep at it.

[Nels55]

Much appreciated. I am not asking to eliminate drops of any kind. My proposal is only to eliminate the nearest point of relief qualifier. You could determine both point A and point B if you wanted to and then choose one. I think that most of the time the choice will be obvious as you approach the ball. Once the point is determined you would take one club length no nearer the hole and then drop.

The rule if written this way would keep most folks within the rule most of the time as opposed to now where half the time average golfers are taking relief that is not correct per the rule and gaining an advantage by doing so.

So, yes I would like to change this particular rule that does require thought because it seems in my experience that this much thought is beyond the capacity of a large amount of golfers.

And yes at times a person will gain an advantage and a bad shot will go less punished then maybe it should be. I believe that there are enough bad breaks remaining in the game to try one's soul without this one!

[davep043]

"And yes playing by the rules often puts one at a disadvantage. I simply think that this is one case where that disadvantage could be done away with without any negative effect on the game."

As has been said, someone who plays by the rules may face a disadvantage when playing against someone who is ignorant of the rules. That same knowledgeable player may at other times GET an advantage, based on his understanding of the rules. But its pretty much impossible to write effective rules for people who'll never read them.

As for negative effect, in my opinion any rule change that moves further from "Play it as it lies" has a negative impact. The current rule allows an exception to "Play it as it lies", but keeps that relief to the minimum distance possible.

[SNIPERBBB]

How do you determine point A or point B? It has to be in reference to something or youylr just dropping anywhere you please.

[nsxguy]

 

 

C'mon guys, you both know what he's suggesting.

Give the player a choice of taking relief on EITHER side of the obstruction and then use the nearest point of full relief on THAT side as the reference point.

i can't say he's wrong - it'd probably speed up play a bit as well.