Lido - Wisconsin course from Michael Keiser

[geochitown]

Andy Johnson's Fried Egg has a lot of good detail about the project as well as images

 

https://thefriedegg.com/lido-in-wisconsin-sand-valley-michael-keiser-tom-doak-restoration/

 

 

[ode]

Just did all of the flyovers.  Appears to be a lot of cross bunkering going on to catch your eye off the tee and/or on the approach/layup.  Those greens look massive and wow some of the shapes of them.  #7 looks insane.  #10 looks to be blind or semi-blind coming in on the approach to a green the slopes pretty severely from front to back. #16 appears you could land one front right and let it kick/funnel left/backside of green.  Cannot tell on the flyovers but on the renderings there is a green that appears to have a little bowl in the middle of the green with the two big bunkers over.  Looks like on the front many run up opportunities with drop offs on sides or over the greens and the back more push up type greens.  Looks amazing....hard to believe that's what the course will actually look like.   Oh yeah, who's gonna try and go right off the tee on #4 to the little plot of fwy. ??

 

 

Edited January 19, 2021 by ode

[Divot_Forensicist]

8 hours ago, ode said:

Also, for those "in the know"....does this have any implications on Doak's course at SV?

 

 Here is Doak’s reply to this question on another discussion board:

 

Tom_Doak

• YaBB God
• 
• http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/avatars/blank.gif
• Karma: +0/-0

Re: Sand Valley 3 "will be just over 6,000 yards and par will be 67 or 68" 

« Reply #164 on: Today at 06:25:15 PM »

 

Quote from: Drew Harvie on Today at 05:22:23 PM

Quote from: George Myers on Today at 04:23:50 PM

any update on sedge valley, still on hiatus?


only curious

 

I believe the reports say it's still on hiatus, with Lido taking priority

 

Correct.

[ode]

10 minutes ago, Caddie Master said:

 

 Here is Doak’s reply to this question on another discussion board:

 

Tom_Doak

• YaBB God
• 
• http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/avatars/blank.gif
• Karma: +0/-0

Re: Sand Valley 3 "will be just over 6,000 yards and par will be 67 or 68" 

« Reply #164 on: Today at 06:25:15 PM »

 

Quote from: Drew Harvie on Today at 05:22:23 PM

Quote from: George Myers on Today at 04:23:50 PM

any update on sedge valley, still on hiatus?


only curious

 

I believe the reports say it's still on hiatus, with Lido taking priority

 

Correct.

That's a bit of a bummer.  Initially was not too enamored with a 6,000y par 66/67, but more I've read about Doak, the more excited I became.   Also figured it would help being able to get on (all SV courses) easier as a day guest after the third course opened up.  Looks like SV#3 will now be several years from opening.

[geochitown]

hopefully it will come in the future.

They had started construction of Sedge Valley but that was halted this past year.

 

WIth all of that available land, I think there will be many courses.

 

We may just have to wait a while.

[geochitown]

37 minutes ago, Caddie Master said:

 

 Here is Doak’s reply to this question on another discussion board:

 

Tom_Doak

• YaBB God
• 
• http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/avatars/blank.gif
• Karma: +0/-0

Re: Sand Valley 3 "will be just over 6,000 yards and par will be 67 or 68" 

« Reply #164 on: Today at 06:25:15 PM »

 

Quote from: Drew Harvie on Today at 05:22:23 PM

Quote from: George Myers on Today at 04:23:50 PM

any update on sedge valley, still on hiatus?


only curious

 

I believe the reports say it's still on hiatus, with Lido taking priority

 

Correct.

 

what a coincidence!

[geochitown]

Nice story from wisconsin.golf magazine about the Lido and info regarding Lido and Sedge Valley.

 

Thanks to the gca poster who pointed this out.

 

https://www.wisconsin.golf/courses/the-lido-reborn-keiser-brothers-tom-doak-teaming-to-re-create-a-long-lost-gem/article_f5d1dc1c-5b6a-11eb-8ad0-4f23417c26db.html

 

 

[geochitown]

Interesting podcast on the Fried Egg with Andy Johnson talking about the Lido with Tom Doak (Interview was on Jan 5 this year).

 

https://thefriedegg.com/lido-in-wisconsin-sand-valley-michael-keiser-tom-doak-restoration/

 

top and center for the podcast

[JMO TO]

Membership packet: https://static1.squarespace.com/static/5c0194bb5417fc6fd569eb69/t/6009dc23a5bc415d6dfa7714/1611258926670/The+Lido+Member+Packet+-+No+Application.pdf?mc_cid=3fbf65a886&mc_eid=77d3024392

 

 

Edited January 25, 2021 by JMO TO

[Phreddy]

54 minutes ago, JMO TO said:

Membership packet: https://static1.squarespace.com/static/5c0194bb5417fc6fd569eb69/t/6009dc23a5bc415d6dfa7714/1611258926670/The+Lido+Member+Packet+-+No+Application.pdf?mc_cid=3fbf65a886&mc_eid=77d3024392

 

 

Thanks for posting.  Interesting stuff.

[psygolf]

Surprised the dues are as low as stated in the above link, especially if there are plans to cap memberships & limit public play based on the word on the street.

They could sell 1k+ ltd. international memberships in a sec if they wanted, without it affecting accessibility.

[Schley]

On 1/27/2021 at 7:36 AM, psygolf said:

Surprised the dues are as low as stated in the above link, especially if there are plans to cap memberships & limit public play based on the word on the street.

They could sell 1k+ ltd. international memberships in a sec if they wanted, without it affecting accessibility.

I think they have dialed in their model by creating synergies with the SV resort courses / lodging. With visitor tee times available to the public it isn't as attractive for those who won't bring guests each time. The real value to many will be those who bring guests or allow their parents / kids to bring play and bring guests. Interesting model.

 

I can tell you any golf architecture fan is salivating at playing this place due to the respect for the original lost Lido course. With Peter Flory's model and Tom Doak's interpretation of the data points to put it back as close as possible that is very exciting.

[Chanceman]

1 hour ago, Schley said:

I think they have dialed in their model by creating synergies with the SV resort courses / lodging. With visitor tee times available to the public it isn't as attractive for those who won't bring guests each time. The real value to many will be those who bring guests or allow their parents / kids to bring play and bring guests. Interesting model.

 

I can tell you any golf architecture fan is salivating at playing this place due to the respect for the original lost Lido course. With Peter Flory's model and Tom Doak's interpretation of the data points to put it back as close as possible that is very exciting.

Yes. I am almost wanting our trip to Wisconsin to be deferred yet another year so we could play the Lido. Those computer graphics are sublime. By the way do you know if this means the Tom Doak par 69 course will be shelved or put back a year or two?

[Schley]

The Lido won't be open until 2023 most likely.  Sledge Valley IIRC which is Doak's short course is on hold, but still in the plan with no date assigned.

[psygolf]

20 hours ago, Schley said:

I think they have dialed in their model by creating synergies with the SV resort courses / lodging. With visitor tee times available to the public it isn't as attractive for those who won't bring guests each time. The real value to many will be those who bring guests or allow their parents / kids to bring play and bring guests. Interesting model.

 

I can tell you any golf architecture fan is salivating at playing this place due to the respect for the original lost Lido course. With Peter Flory's model and Tom Doak's interpretation of the data points to put it back as close as possible that is very exciting.

The above is obvious, my comment was on the low dues (and down stroke, for that matter)

[Schley]

2 hours ago, psygolf said:

The above is obvious, my comment was on the low dues (and down stroke, for that matter)

 

By obvious you mean agree I assume? I don't think the dues are actually low, when you consider the short golf season there is probably 6-7 months. At 5k you are looking at 700-800 a month in dues.  However, the free guests is where the real value is, which are significant for me in the summer when I have guests. I spend more money each year on guest fees than my dues by a factor of probably 2 at least.

[Symphonize]

My guess on the lower dues is because they don’t expect the course to be used like a typical country club. Although some members might live on the course or close by, most will probably be from further out, so rather than playing every single week throughout the year, they might only come up a few different times a year for a long weekend. So the play is going to be a lot less than your typical country club. The rest will be subsidized by those staying at the lodges with their limited public play. 

[psygolf]

My point is that they could easily ask & get a lot more...the excitement level on this small forum topic is proof of that, and just the tip of the iceberg.

 

Now if they are selecting the cream of those interested, and those that become members know & accept upfront that they will need to write substantial checks for assessments to cover the club’s expenses from time to time, then it starts to make sense.

[psygolf]

This is from an interview with Kye Goalby, who has worked with Doak, on the costs of building a new course (Golf Club Atlas website):

 

That being said, the back of napkin cost estimates starting from the most expensive and moving down the list:

Add: Irrigation two and three row system – pump station, three phase power to pump, pipe, heads, install.
$700,000

Add: Design fee and feature construction – design fee, shaping fees, labor, housing, transportation, equipment erental, fuel, equipment maintenance
$675,000

Add: Greens superintendent and small crew to help with labor during construction
$175,000

Add: Grassing. Assuming all Bermuda including greens. Sprigging/ seeding/hydro-mulching/sod and seed bed prep
$150,000

Add: You will also likely need a well to supply water to the existing lake, but the cost and feasibility of that is hard to predict in this scenario.

 

Total, not including grow-in, maintenance buildings and infrastructure = $1,700,000

 

(Below, not all applicable, but need consideration)

 

Now Add: USGA type greens construction (700k to 900k),
Add: Drainage for bunkers, tees and fairways (300k to 500k)
Add: Cart paths (500k to 1m+)
Add: Bunker sand (up to $50+ per ton).
Add: Lake construction for irrigation water storage is a big cost variable, especially if excavation and a permitted dam is needed and lining of the lake is required (200k to 500k)

 

*Additionally, items that became kind of commonplace in a lot of expensive golf in the recent past were:
Add: Sandcapping or USGA greens construction of tees
Add: sandcapping of fairways (some do it)
Add: Major earthwork – including stripping stockpiling and replacing topsoil (500k +++)
Add: Blasting rock where needed to put holes that don’t really fit
Add: Stone retention walls
Add: Wall to wall cart paths
Add: Cart path curbs
Add: Aggregate cart paths
Add: Environmental permitting and mitigation
Add: Additional lake building
Add: Artificial, recirculating streams
Add: Extensive to complete sodding
Add: Gonzo landscaping
Add: Huge trees moved with spade
Add: Extra (or excessive) irrigation- more heads more pipe, more wire, more lake, more pump etc. including misters for bunker faces and other areas,
Add: Waterfalls!
Add: AND of course, gigantic clubhouses.

[Schley]

Kye Goalby will do a find job at The Tree Farm to construct Doak's routing for Zac Blair.  To be clear the KG interview was from April 2010 about a theoretical course in the sand hills of NC for a walking only course. I don't know why he added in cart parts.

 

For the Lido course the construction cost will be quite a bit less, but Doak has to add in some ponds/lakes which is expensive to line etc. I don't believe there will be any cart paths, but I could be wrong as I think it will be walking only.

[JMO TO]

7 hours ago, Schley said:

Kye Goalby will do a find job at The Tree Farm to construct Doak's routing for Zac Blair.  To be clear the KG interview was from April 2010 about a theoretical course in the sand hills of NC for a walking only course. I don't know why he added in cart parts.

 

For the Lido course the construction cost will be quite a bit less, but Doak has to add in some ponds/lakes which is expensive to line etc. I don't believe there will be any cart paths, but I could be wrong as I think it will be walking only.

 

17 hours ago, psygolf said:

This is from an interview with Kye Goalby, who has worked with Doak, on the costs of building a new course (Golf Club Atlas website):

 

That being said, the back of napkin cost estimates starting from the most expensive and moving down the list:

Add: Irrigation two and three row system – pump station, three phase power to pump, pipe, heads, install.
$700,000

Add: Design fee and feature construction – design fee, shaping fees, labor, housing, transportation, equipment erental, fuel, equipment maintenance
$675,000

Add: Greens superintendent and small crew to help with labor during construction
$175,000

Add: Grassing. Assuming all Bermuda including greens. Sprigging/ seeding/hydro-mulching/sod and seed bed prep
$150,000

Add: You will also likely need a well to supply water to the existing lake, but the cost and feasibility of that is hard to predict in this scenario.

 

Total, not including grow-in, maintenance buildings and infrastructure = $1,700,000

 

(Below, not all applicable, but need consideration)

 

Now Add: USGA type greens construction (700k to 900k),
Add: Drainage for bunkers, tees and fairways (300k to 500k)
Add: Cart paths (500k to 1m+)
Add: Bunker sand (up to $50+ per ton).
Add: Lake construction for irrigation water storage is a big cost variable, especially if excavation and a permitted dam is needed and lining of the lake is required (200k to 500k)

 

*Additionally, items that became kind of commonplace in a lot of expensive golf in the recent past were:
Add: Sandcapping or USGA greens construction of tees
Add: sandcapping of fairways (some do it)
Add: Major earthwork – including stripping stockpiling and replacing topsoil (500k +++)
Add: Blasting rock where needed to put holes that don’t really fit
Add: Stone retention walls
Add: Wall to wall cart paths
Add: Cart path curbs
Add: Aggregate cart paths
Add: Environmental permitting and mitigation
Add: Additional lake building
Add: Artificial, recirculating streams
Add: Extensive to complete sodding
Add: Gonzo landscaping
Add: Huge trees moved with spade
Add: Extra (or excessive) irrigation- more heads more pipe, more wire, more lake, more pump etc. including misters for bunker faces and other areas,
Add: Waterfalls!
Add: AND of course, gigantic clubhouses.

If you refer to my 2nd post they actually have reported the draft construction budget here: https://romewi.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/11/LIDO-PUD-PLAN-DRAFT-2020-11-2.pdf

 

It works out to just under $20mm for the course, clubhouse and lodging (I did not include the housing construction costs in that total).

[psygolf]

4 hours ago, JMO TO said:

 

If you refer to my 2nd post they actually have reported the draft construction budget here: https://romewi.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/11/LIDO-PUD-PLAN-DRAFT-2020-11-2.pdf

 

It works out to just under $20mm for the course, clubhouse and lodging (I did not include the housing construction costs in that total).

Did it mention the member cap #?

[JMO TO]

15 hours ago, psygolf said:

Did it mention the member cap #?

Not in that file. I don't know if it's been mentioned elsewhere. 400 members should pay for the golf course construction assuming that residence sales cover the sand barren restoration and home construction costs.

Edited February 2, 2021 by JMO TO

[psygolf]

11 hours ago, JMO TO said:

Not in that file. I don't know if it's been mentioned elsewhere. 400 members should pay for the golf course construction assuming that residence sales cover the sand barren restoration and home construction costs.

I’ll let you know what they’re “selling” that number to be to prospective members...we have a member that has already joined.

[Chrismydawg]

On 12/27/2020 at 12:21 AM, Symphonize said:

This Lido project looks really cool. Can’t wait to follow it even if I won’t be able to play it. 
 

Speaking of Dunes Club, does anyone know much about it? I drove by it (not that you can see any of it) a few months ago and was reading up on it, it sounds like an amazing course. I understand it’s private and exclusive, is it like Augusta exclusive or is it like a good club pro can call and get you on exclusive? 

 

In his interview with No Laying Up during their trip to Bandon he said he regrets making The Dunes Club private and has drastically relaxed his stance on letting the general public play the Dunes Club. You might get lucky with a simple phone call.

[geochitown]

Keiser is much more explicit about access to Dunes Club in his interview with Erik Ander’s Lang

 

like how he states to go about getting to play there As a non-member 

 

 

 

Edited February 4, 2021 by geochitown

[geochitown]

On 12/15/2020 at 12:18 PM, JMO TO said:

I was listening to the Erik Anders Lang podcast with Mike Keiser, and he mentioned that his son was building the Lido with Doak.

 

 

 

Article below posits that it will be a private course which seems to really go against the Dream Golf model.

https://wiscogolfaddict.com/2020/08/24/sv_mammothdunes/#comments

 

Does anyone have any intel or insights?

listen here in the OP’s first post on this thread

[psygolf]

19 hours ago, Chrismydawg said:

 

In his interview with No Laying Up during their trip to Bandon he said he regrets making The Dunes Club private and has drastically relaxed his stance on letting the general public play the Dunes Club. You might get lucky with a simple phone call.

20+ years ago, there was a young guy that had just been hired by Adams to sell the original tight lies, he was hitting balls at Diversey D.R. next to a man struggling with his fairways...he gave him one to try and he loved them & asked how does one get one of these, the young rep said “it’s yours”...then the gent asked “How would you like to play my golf course I just built-?” (Keiser)

[Chanceman]

17 minutes ago, psygolf said:

20+ years ago, there was a young guy that had just been hired by Adams to sell the original tight lies, he was hitting balls at Diversey D.R. next to a man struggling with his fairways...he gave him one to try and he loved them & asked how does one get one of these, the young rep said “it’s yours”...then the gent asked “How would you like to play my golf course I just built-?” (Keiser)

Great story - thanks.