Iron shafts with similar bend profile to Project X LZ 6.0?

[Eldrick Tont]

I'm in the process of testing iron shafts and so far I've tested a Modus3 120 stiff, a DG S300, and a PX LZ 6.0. So far the PX LZ 6.0 has given me the tightest dispersion and has the best feel. The Modus gave me the worst shot dispersion and honestly feels softer than the PX and DG, I had a hard time finding the center of the club face. The DG 120 was somewhere in the middle. Are there any other shafts out there that compare closely to the LZ in terms of the profile?

[Howard_Jones]

You can line up 3 models side by side here, they are NOT equal but goes from Modus 120 who has the most "curvy EI profile", then we have PX LZ who has the same, but not that extreme curves as Modus 120 has, and then we can move to standard Project X who is the same as LZ but "less curvy" than LZ but still the same....Modus will be responsive, LZ moderate,  PX "conservative" or the rigid one, so i suggest you try the standard PX model but as 5.5 flex, even 5.0 should be tried, so we get a flex in the area of PX LZ 6.0






Here is DG 120 as reference
 

Edited March 26, 2021 by Howard_Jones

[Eldrick Tont]

Thanks! So should I try a 5.5 in the regular PX because of the more rigit bend profile or is there another reason? Same for the Modus, should I try an X flex?

[Howard_Jones]

22 minutes ago, Eldrick Tont said:

Thanks! So should I try a 5.5 in the regular PX because of the more rigit bend profile or is there another reason? Same for the Modus, should I try an X flex?

standard PX is the strongest model on the marked pr GRAM shaft wgt, so the regular PX 6.0 120 grams is much stronger than LZ 6.0 due to its curvy profile where LZ has "weak spots" to improve the feel of loading and release the shaft, so when we look at regular PX shaft DO NOT look at flex labels, they fools most players really bad since a shaft like the regular PX 5.0 actually is stronger than the PXi 6.5 Tiger woods used for driving iron, so those who thinks PX 5.0 is "regular" flex cant be more wrong since its only half a flex softer than PX 5.5 who is in the strong end of S to the boarder of X after the old conversion charts between PX. RIFLE, Dynamic Gold and Black Gold.

'
Sure you could try a flex letter stronger Modus to as compare, but pay attention to shaft wgt too, thats really where it all starts.

 

Edited March 26, 2021 by Howard_Jones

[Eldrick Tont]

That makes sense. Given that information it seems the DG 120 S300 and the Modus 120 XS might be the next best options to test out given 120g seems to be the weight I like.  The KBS Tour 120S looks like it has a fairly similar profile as well. Last question: Does the flex of the shaft affect the bend profile? So will an X flex Modus have a tighter profile relative to that middle line than a S flex?

Edited March 26, 2021 by Eldrick Tont

[Howard_Jones]

3 hours ago, Eldrick Tont said:

That makes sense. Given that information it seems the DG 120 S300 and the Modus 120 XS might be the next best options to test out given 120g seems to be the weight I like.  The KBS Tour 120S looks like it has a fairly similar profile as well. Last question: Does the flex of the shaft affect the bend profile? So will an X flex Modus have a tighter profile relative to that middle line than a S flex?

Yes and NO....
We have in general 2 types of shaft design.

#1 - KBS Tour is a good model as example.
ALL flexes have the same step pattern so the EI profile is the same, so here its shaft walls that gets thicker for each flex, where we see a pattern that say 1 gram is 1 CPM. We count 10 CPM as a full flex (R to S or S to X), so KBS Tour has "half flex" options like R+ and S+ who is 5 grams and 5 CPM stronger than without the + sign...If we made a graph to show them off, they would have the same profile, only higher up in the chart for each flex we go stronger.

Project X can be directly compared to KBS tour on DESIGN, with progressive thicker shaft walls for each flex stronger, but identical profile.

#2 - Dynamic Gold
Since weight is the same on both DG X100 and S300 its NOT shaft walls that makes the difference to flex, but step pattern and shaft OD on each step. The R flex model is only 3 grams down, so in DG (classic model), we have 3 different EI profiles, all low launch but different.

Pay attention top the TIP section...to keep LOW launch going from X to S and further to R, we have to make the TIP section STRONGER on R flex than X flex.....The Darkest is X100, the lightest yellow is R flex.



This is NOT KBS Tour, but if we placed all models from R to X on the same chart, the chart will look something like this, where the profile is the same, only stronger for each flex. What we actually see here is a SET OF irons from 3 to PW, not different flexes, but as graphs it would look similar.

Edited March 26, 2021 by Howard_Jones

[Eldrick Tont]

Sorry, questions keep popping into my head. The trim code for the PX LZ is IR1 and it's .355 tapered. That shaft is currently in my 4i. If I were to tip trim it, then butt trim it to the length of a 6i, would the shaft then mimic the profile of a 6i, or would it keep the same 4i profile? Would it cause the weight of the shaft to be lighter than what it's supposed to be? Can you tip trim a shaft with an IR1 or W1? The reason I ask is because I might pick up a fuse-fit shaft/hosel adapter and test the shafts in my 6i.

Edited March 26, 2021 by Eldrick Tont

[Howard_Jones]

8 hours ago, Eldrick Tont said:

Sorry, questions keep popping into my head. The trim code for the PX LZ is IR1 and it's .355 tapered. That shaft is currently in my 4i. If I were to tip trim it, then butt trim it to the length of a 6i, would the shaft then mimic the profile of a 6i, or would it keep the same 4i profile? Would it cause the weight of the shaft to be lighter than what it's supposed to be? Can you tip trim a shaft with an IR1 or W1? The reason I ask is because I might pick up a fuse-fit shaft/hosel adapter and test the shafts in my 6i.

Soft stepping combined with the same as tip trim, (SS1 + 0.5" tip trim) gives us the same profile we started from, but with slightly thinner shaft walls who makes over all flex a tad softer.

So starting form a #4, tip trim it 1.0", butt cut for use as a #6, and you have the same profile as the shaft shall have, but now 3 grams lighter due to slightly thinner shaft walls

[Eldrick Tont]

Gotcha. So like with .370 raw KBS tours, tip trimming each shaft to match the correct iron, how would you keep the same shaft weight for each iron? Are all the raw/uncut shaft walls the same thickness?

 

If that's the case I'd rather get the .355s and just use shims to fit into the hosels.

[Howard_Jones]

22 minutes ago, Eldrick Tont said:

Gotcha. So like with .370 raw KBS tours, tip trimming each shaft to match the correct iron, how would you keep the same shaft weight for each iron? Are all the raw/uncut shaft walls the same thickness?

 

If that's the case I'd rather get the .355s and just use shims to fit into the hosels.

KBS Taper and KBS Parallels is 2 very different shafts, its Constant wgt vs Descending wgt

Project X is Constant weight on both models, so for PX is only the last 6/8" of the tip section thats different, the rest of the shaft is the same, so for PX it makes no difference what we use here. as long as it fits the hosel of the head we shall use.
 

[Eldrick Tont]

Does that go for the Modus3s as well or no because their .370s come already tipped?

[Howard_Jones]

5 hours ago, Eldrick Tont said:

Does that go for the Modus3s as well or no because their .370s come already tipped?

MODUS is just like Project X, its CONSTANT wgt no matter tip type

[GJR10]

On 3/27/2021 at 3:08 AM, Howard_Jones said:

MODUS is just like Project X, its CONSTANT wgt no matter tip type

Would you say modus 105x is comparable stiffness wise to modus 120stiff?

[geochitown]

Not to muddy the waters, but my shaft fitting with the Mizuno optimizer gave me these three shafts:

 

DG 120 S300

Project X LZ 6.0

KBS C-Taper Lite X

 

I prefer the Project X LZ 6.0 to DG120 S300

 

Haven't tried the C-Taper Lite X

 

Going on weight, I've also purchased a set of Accra i-series steel stiffs which are 115 g nominally.

 

Edited October 7, 2021 by geochitown

[Howard_Jones]

12 hours ago, GJR10 said:

Would you say modus 105x is comparable stiffness wise to modus 120stiff?

Everything can be compared, even apples to bananas, but if your question was if they are "equal" or close to each other, the answer is NO. (PS there is a typo in my DB - deflection for 105X should be 2.375) so 105 X (depending on what standard we use for measurement) is 10 CPM stronger butt side and thats a full flex like the flex letters indicate, meaning 105 X is stronger than 120 S

[GJR10]

3 hours ago, Howard_Jones said:

Everything can be compared, even apples to bananas, but if your question was if they are "equal" or close to each other, the answer is NO. (PS there is a typo in my DB - deflection for 105X should be 2.375) so 105 X (depending on what standard we use for measurement) is 10 CPM stronger butt side and thats a full flex like the flex letters indicate, meaning 105 X is stronger than 120 S

Thank you Howard

[lotbean21]

On 3/26/2021 at 4:06 AM, Howard_Jones said:

You can line up 3 models side by side here, they are NOT equal but goes from Modus 120 who has the most "curvy EI profile", then we have PX LZ who has the same, but not that extreme curves as Modus 120 has, and then we can move to standard Project X who is the same as LZ but "less curvy" than LZ but still the same....Modus will be responsive, LZ moderate,  PX "conservative" or the rigid one, so i suggest you try the standard PX model but as 5.5 flex, even 5.0 should be tried, so we get a flex in the area of PX LZ 6.0






Here is DG 120 as reference
 

I have had a recent fitting and the PX LZ 6.0 was a recommendation with 77mph 7 iron swing speed.

 

Out of interest how would the True Temper Elevate Tour compare to the LZ?

I am looking to order some PXG irons and the elevate tours are a stock option.

[geochitown]

5 hours ago, lotbean21 said:

I have had a recent fitting and the PX LZ 6.0 was a recommendation with 77mph 7 iron swing speed.

 

Out of interest how would the True Temper Elevate Tour compare to the LZ?

I am looking to order some PXG irons and the elevate tours are a stock option.

FYI my results from above were with a 7 iron at 85 mph

 

dont have any of the other parameters though 

[johnnyb123]

On 3/26/2021 at 12:33 AM, Howard_Jones said:

standard PX is the strongest model on the marked pr GRAM shaft wgt, so the regular PX 6.0 120 grams is much stronger than LZ 6.0 due to its curvy profile where LZ has "weak spots" to improve the feel of loading and release the shaft, so when we look at regular PX shaft DO NOT look at flex labels, they fools most players really bad since a shaft like the regular PX 5.0 actually is stronger than the PXi 6.5 Tiger woods used for driving iron, so those who thinks PX 5.0 is "regular" flex cant be more wrong since its only half a flex softer than PX 5.5 who is in the strong end of S to the boarder of X after the old conversion charts between PX. RIFLE, Dynamic Gold and Black Gold.

'
Sure you could try a flex letter stronger Modus to as compare, but pay attention to shaft wgt too, thats really where it all starts.

 

This is not correct. The PX LZ 5.5 (115 gram) will play stiffer than regular PX (I’ve played all of the shafts I comment on), and will play like a normal PX 6.0 120 gram). PX 6.0 would have the slight edge in dispersion for a more aggressive transition. Another shaft that will play very similar to these would be the Modus 120 X (SS1x) (120 gram). For what it is worth, my advice… first find a shaft profile that works for you, then determined what shaft weight you swing best, and then hard step/soft step accordingly for flex. 5 grams in shaft weight will make a difference, but the shafts loading profile is most important for most people for center hits on the club face.  I now play PX LZ 5.5 in 2021 Callaway X Forged (HDCP is 1). If you haven’t done so, go to someplace (like Club Champion, but there are others) and pay for an iron fitting, specifically to test one head with numerous shafts, then find your shaft based on dispersion only. Then you’ll know and won’t eventually waste way more money than the cost of the fitting.
 

Good luck! 

[Howard_Jones]

8 hours ago, johnnyb123 said:

This is not correct. The PX LZ 5.5 (115 gram) will play stiffer than regular PX (I’ve played all of the shafts I comment on), and will play like a normal PX 6.0 120 gram).

The LZ model has more deflection than standard PX with the same flex label, so LZ is SOFTER, and has a higher launch.

 

8 hours ago, johnnyb123 said:

 If you haven’t done so, go to someplace (like Club Champion, but there are others) and pay for an iron fitting, specifically to test one head with numerous shafts, then find your shaft based on dispersion only. Then you’ll know and won’t eventually waste way more money than the cost of the fitting.
 

Good luck! 

IF that was addressed to me, its not relevant, and will never happen for obvious reasons  

[storm319]

21 hours ago, johnnyb123 said:

This is not correct. The PX LZ 5.5 (115 gram) will play stiffer than regular PX (I’ve played all of the shafts I comment on), and will play like a normal PX 6.0 120 gram). PX 6.0 would have the slight edge in dispersion for a more aggressive transition. Another shaft that will play very similar to these would be the Modus 120 X (SS1x) (120 gram). For what it is worth, my advice… first find a shaft profile that works for you, then determined what shaft weight you swing best, and then hard step/soft step accordingly for flex. 5 grams in shaft weight will make a difference, but the shafts loading profile is most important for most people for center hits on the club face.  I now play PX LZ 5.5 in 2021 Callaway X Forged (HDCP is 1). If you haven’t done so, go to someplace (like Club Champion, but there are others) and pay for an iron fitting, specifically to test one head with numerous shafts, then find your shaft based on dispersion only. Then you’ll know and won’t eventually waste way more money than the cost of the fitting.
 

Good luck! 

The regular PX is absolutely stiffer across the board than the LZ at the same flex designation. If you don’t want to believe @Howard_Jones who has provided frequency measurements actually taken by himself, here is a comparison from Titleist (as you can see the PX 5.5 is noticeably stiffer than the LZ 6.0).

 

 

 

[Howard_Jones]

22 minutes ago, storm319 said:

The regular PX is absolutely stiffer across the board than the LZ at the same flex designation. If you don’t want to believe @Howard_Jones who has provided frequency measurements actually taken by himself, here is a comparison from Titleist (as you can see the PX 5.5 is noticeably stiffer than the LZ 6.0).

 

 

 

The only surprise here is that they have a upcharge for standard PX, but no upcharge for LZ
LZ was designed to improve feel and feedback from load and release, and that can only be done by going weaker, and its visible on its EI profile and zone flex measurement, but also on deflection and butt CPM.



 

Edited April 17 by Howard_Jones

[ob1soccer]

anyone compare LZ to Modus 105 and KBS tour lite

[Howard_Jones]

37 minutes ago, ob1soccer said:

anyone compare LZ to Modus 105 and KBS tour lite

i DONT have Tour LITE in my DB, and datas for LZ 6.0 is also missing
Be aware of that UNCUT length is NOT the same for this brands, so what we see here, is actually KBS as HARD STEPPED ONCE (as relative compare)
For LZ the 39.00" is a #5 iron shaft, for KBS Tour its a #6 iron shaft
That means all datas is a bit misleading and NOT a apple to apple compare, but not much i can do about it. For RAW BUTT CPM, KBS in this chart shows about 7-9 CPM more than it should for that reason)

Edited Thursday at 01:23 PM by Howard_Jones

[ob1soccer]

thanks for the chart, good information here. I am in the middle of an iron shaft change so all the information is helpful. 

I am ordering single iron shafts to demo on the course and I realize that is the best way to do it, just not positive on exactly which ones to try out. 

I own Modus 105s and they are ok, flight is too low and as i get older with a cranky back, difficult to load.

Currently have SF 95s, SF 95r, LZ 5.5, MMT 95s, Recoil 95s, Neo 950 GH to try out.

Looking for higher trajectory, smooth and easy to load.

[Howard_Jones]

2 hours ago, ob1soccer said:

thanks for the chart, good information here. I am in the middle of an iron shaft change so all the information is helpful. 

I am ordering single iron shafts to demo on the course and I realize that is the best way to do it, just not positive on exactly which ones to try out. 

I own Modus 105s and they are ok, flight is too low and as i get older with a cranky back, difficult to load.

Currently have SF 95s, SF 95r, LZ 5.5, MMT 95s, Recoil 95s, Neo 950 GH to try out.

Looking for higher trajectory, smooth and easy to load.

Go by weight, feel and dispersion,(shaft choice)... tweak lofts weaker if ball flight is too low

[ob1soccer]

15 minutes ago, Howard_Jones said:

Go by weight, feel and dispersion,(shaft choice)... tweak lofts weaker if ball flight is too low

Going to play today to answer some questions, so far weight that feels good is between 95-110, will check dispersion today. If my current zx5 7 iron is 31 degrees and goes 162 on average and definitely too low launch and landing angle what should I expect from adding 2 degrees of loft? Less offset, and more bounce with added spin and launch? Thanks for much for the help

[YAMS49]

If you like the feel of the Modus 105 but not the end result then try the 950GH, it should launch higher than the 105. 

 

ZX5's are strong lofted so maybe jacking them up a degree or two makes sense also but I'd try that 950GH first.