Playing from the wrong tee question.

[Nels55]

I played in the senior scratch division of a two day tournament this weekend.  For this tournament there were separate special tee markers in addition to the usual red, white and blue markers.  On the second day at the third tee the tournament markers were about 10 yards in back of the blue tees.  The tournament leader (player A) teed his ball up on the blue tees and nailed one right down the middle.  I was off to the side watching him hit with my driver in one hand and my ball and tee in the other.  I was about to step up and hit from the wrong tees also when player B walked in and told A that he had hit from the wrong tee.  Player A said it was okay and no penalty and he hit another ball from the correct tees.  After all four of us had teed off I started to think and said that I while there is no penalty in match play I believed that there was a penalty stroke play.  I also said that I really wished I had noticed that A was on the wrong tee before he hit and had stopped him!  It is indeed a two stroke penalty which in this case meant that player A won the tournament by two strokes instead of four so no harm no foul.  

 

Anyway my question is why is teeing from the wrong tees a two stroke penalty in stroke play?  Is there a compelling reason for this?  It seems kind of harsh to nail a guy for having a 'senior moment' does it not? 

[Mr. Bean]

There is a 2 stroke penalty for playing outside of the Teeing Area, Rule 6.1b(2).

 

Afa harshness is concerned some penalties may seem harsh but that is the way how it is. My guess is that if there was no penalty that would be an easy way to practice during the round and practicing is not allowed.

 

Edited May 3, 2021 by Mr. Bean
Added the Rule number

[sui generis]

Mr Bean has nailed it for you!

 

But here it is , again:

 

In match play, if a player plays from the wrong tee or from outside the teeing area, the opponent may immediately recall the stroke and require that the player play from the correct teeing area. Otherwise, the ball is played as it lies without penalty.    (R6.1b1) 

 

In stroke play, if a player plays from the wrong tee or from outside the teeing area, they must correct their mistake before starting the next hole by playing from within the correct teeing area. Two-stroke penalty.    (R6.1b2) 

 

https://www.usga.org/content/usga/home-page/rules/rules-2019/rules-of-golf/rules-and-interpretations.html#!ruletype=fr&section=rule&rulenum=6&subrulenum=1

[rogolf]

1 hour ago, Nels55 said:

I played in the senior scratch division of a two day tournament this weekend.  For this tournament there were separate special tee markers in addition to the usual red, white and blue markers.  On the second day at the third tee the tournament markers were about 10 yards in back of the blue tees.  The tournament leader (player A) teed his ball up on the blue tees and nailed one right down the middle.  I was off to the side watching him hit with my driver in one hand and my ball and tee in the other.  I was about to step up and hit from the wrong tees also when player B walked in and told A that he had hit from the wrong tee.  Player A said it was okay and no penalty and he hit another ball from the correct tees.  After all four of us had teed off I started to think and said that I while there is no penalty in match play I believed that there was a penalty stroke play.  I also said that I really wished I had noticed that A was on the wrong tee before he hit and had stopped him!  It is indeed a two stroke penalty which in this case meant that player A won the tournament by two strokes instead of four so no harm no foul.  

 

Anyway my question is why is teeing from the wrong tees a two stroke penalty in stroke play?  Is there a compelling reason for this?  It seems kind of harsh to nail a guy for having a 'senior moment' does it not? 

What about someone who is not a senior?  It's a two stroke penalty because of the potential seriousness of it.  Think about someone who plays from the a teeing area that is 150 yards in front of the correct teeing area, and avoids playing over a penalty area by doing so.

Here's what Rule 1.3c(2) Levels of Penalties says,

General Penalty (Loss of hole in match play, Two-stroke penalty in stroke play).  This penalty applies for a breach of most Rules, where the potential advantage is more significant than where only one stroke applies.

[Halebopp]

1939:

 

Playing Outside of Limits of Teeing Ground
(2) If at any hole a competitor play his first stroke from outside the limits of the Teeing Ground, he shall count that stroke, tee a ball, and play his second stroke from within these limits.

 

1952:

 

2. Stroke Play
If a competitor, when starting a hole, play his first stroke from outside the teeing ground, he shall count that stroke and any subsequent stroke so played and then play from within the teeing ground with the privilege of teeing his ball.

 

1980:

 

b. Stroke Play
If a competitor, when starting a hole, plays a ball from outside the teeing ground, he shall be penalised two strokes and shall then play a ball from within the teeing ground.
Strokes played by a competitor from outside the teeing ground do not count in his score.

[Mr. Bean]

14 minutes ago, rogolf said:

What about someone who is not a senior?  It's a two stroke penalty because of the potential seriousness of it.  Think about someone who plays from the a teeing area that is 150 yards in front of the correct teeing area, and avoids playing over a penalty area by doing so.

Here's what Rule 1.3c(2) Levels of Penalties says,

General Penalty (Loss of hole in match play, Two-stroke penalty in stroke play).  This penalty applies for a breach of most Rules, where the potential advantage is more significant than where only one stroke applies.

 

As the stroke is cancelled there cannot be any advantages you describe. As I already said, my take is that the penalty is 2 PS due to the practice clause. If it were only 1 PS it would contradict Rule 5.5.

[rogolf]

33 minutes ago, Mr. Bean said:

 

As the stroke is cancelled there cannot be any advantages you describe. As I already said, my take is that the penalty is 2 PS due to the practice clause. If it were only 1 PS it would contradict Rule 5.5.

YMMV, time to 'move on'.

[BobbyFray]

The rules of golf!  Funny at times, aren't they?

[Nels55]

1 hour ago, BobbyFray said:

The rules of golf!  Funny at times, aren't they?

Yep.  I think that the best solution for this problem with this particular tournament would be to make sure that the blue tees and the tournament tees are within a few feet of each other on every tee.  This was the case on most holes and it was a bit tricky to have them farther apart on the third hole.   

[rogolf]

5 minutes ago, Nels55 said:

Yep.  I think that the best solution for this problem with this particular tournament would be to make sure that the blue tees and the tournament tees are within a few feet of each other on every tee.  This was the case on most holes and it was a bit tricky to have them farther apart on the third hole.   

So it was a Committee error that caused the player to play from the wrong tees?  How come only one player did so?

[James the Hogan Fan]

4 hours ago, rogolf said:

What about someone who is not a senior?  It's a two stroke penalty because of the potential seriousness of it.  Think about someone who plays from the a teeing area that is 150 yards in front of the correct teeing area, and avoids playing over a penalty area by doing so.

Here's what Rule 1.3c(2) Levels of Penalties says,

General Penalty (Loss of hole in match play, Two-stroke penalty in stroke play).  This penalty applies for a breach of most Rules, where the potential advantage is more significant than where only one stroke applies.

 

Except the rules require you to come back and play from inside the teeing area, so there is no advantage whatsoever to playing from outside the teeing area. The rule as written is effectively the same as mandatory stroke and distance, (hitting your 3rd shot off the tee). The rules could have just as easily been written to say "the stroke made from outside the teeing area counts, but the player must abandon that ball and play correctly from the teeing area" (hitting his second stroke instead of third from the tee). It's just another direction the rulemakers could have gone.

 

 

[Sawgrass]

Talk about a rule that doesn’t need changing!

 

In match play, where opponents can fend for themselves, it’s easily resolved without penalty. 
 

In stroke play, where few players are present to protect their own interests, it’s a penalty equivalent to that for playing from the wrong place.  Kinda ‘cause you played from a wrong place!

[Nels55]

1 hour ago, Sawgrass said:

Talk about a rule that doesn’t need changing!

 

In match play, where opponents can fend for themselves, it’s easily resolved without penalty. 
 

In stroke play, where few players are present to protect their own interests, it’s a penalty equivalent to that for playing from the wrong place.  Kinda ‘cause you played from a wrong place!

I am fine with the rule as it is, I am simply thinking out loud here and I appreciate any measured response.  Thanks!

 

Here are some thoughts:

In stroke play if the error is not corrected the penalty is disqualification.  In match play there is no field to protect so there is no DQ.  My question is what advantage has been gained in stroke play by accidently playing from the wrong tee that requires a 2 stroke penalty? 

 

My understanding is that the match play rule of allowing the opponent to require a replay of the shot is structured that way to prevent a cruel person from playing gottcha on an opponent who tees in front of the markers.  This what I remember reading in Tom Watson's book explaining the rules many years ago. The game of golf is a game of honor and sportsmanship so why is the 'gottcha' case any different for stroke play?

 

Also please consider the case of if the rule was currently structured to replay without penalty would you want to change it to the general penalty as it is now?

[Mr. Bean]

Just now, Nels55 said:

Here are some thoughts:

In stroke play if the error is not corrected the penalty is disqualification.  In match play there is no field to protect so there is no DQ.  My question is what advantage has been gained in stroke play by accidently playing from the wrong tee that requires a 2 stroke penalty? 

 

 

I guess I tried to explain my view on that already.

 

Practicing during a round is limited to chipping and putting on and around the green last played or on the teeing areas. Hitting a ball properly from a teeing area is not allowed. Despite the fact that the scope of advantage is difficult to define in each case the Ruling Bodies have seen fit to make the penalty to be 2 strokes. So, once you play outside the correct teeing area you get one practice stroke and that costs you 2 strokes. Whether it is accidental or deliberate makes no difference, you got your practice stroke and cannot take it back.

 

That is how I perceive it.

[sui generis]

Nels, I see it as a 14.7 Wrong Place w/serious breach. The concept of "wrong place" is consistent and the "serious breach" accounts for all "wrong tee" mistakes. 

[Quasimoto]

8 minutes ago, Mr. Bean said:

 

I guess I tried to explain my view on that already.

 

Practicing during a round is limited to chipping and putting on and around the green last played or on the teeing areas. Hitting a ball properly from a teeing area is not allowed. Despite the fact that the scope of advantage is difficult to define in each case the Ruling Bodies have seen fit to make the penalty to be 2 strokes. So, once you play outside the correct teeing area you get one practice stroke and that costs you 2 strokes. Whether it is accidental or deliberate makes no difference, you got your practice stroke and cannot take it back.

 

That is how I perceive it.

Then again, the TB’s eliminated a double hit penalty recently. 

[Quasimoto]

Make that RB’s.

 

[Mr. Bean]

4 minutes ago, Quasimoto said:

Then again, the RB’s eliminated a double hit penalty recently. 

 

So? I read the reasoning behind it and it made perfect sense to me.

 

What is your point?

[Quasimoto]

Point is if someone can make a case for a different type of resolution (penalty) then the TB’s would probably change it. The 2 strike rule was just one of really dumb rules in golf.

Have you ever known someone to practice double hitting the golf ball so that it is an advantage to them? Not me.

Same with wrong tee. Yes, there may have been several unscrupulous character 200 hundred years ago that attempted to play mind games to win the whiskey by teeing from an alternate place, but have you ever encountered someone who is deliberately cheating by using the wrong tee? Me neither.

[Sawgrass]

The idea that a penalty should only be applied to someone deliberately cheating, or only to someone “gaining an advantage” is inappropriate and not part of the construct of the Rules. 
 

We appropriately penalize balls hit OB, or accidentally struck with a practice swing on the fairway, or lost — even when no advantage is gained. Pursuing this train of thought will spin us in circles. 

[rogolf]

31 minutes ago, Quasimoto said:

Point is if someone can make a case for a different type of resolution (penalty) then the TB’s would probably change it. The 2 strike rule was just one of really dumb rules in golf.

Have you ever known someone to practice double hitting the golf ball so that it is an advantage to them? Not me.

Same with wrong tee. Yes, there may have been several unscrupulous character 200 hundred years ago that attempted to play mind games to win the whiskey by teeing from an alternate place, but have you ever encountered someone who is deliberately cheating by using the wrong tee? Me neither.

My opinion -when the penalty of one stroke for the player's ball hitting their own equipment was removed, it became very easy to remove the penalty for a double hit.  After all, the ball is in motion after a stroke and struck the player's equipment.  Very consistent.

[Mr. Bean]

57 minutes ago, Quasimoto said:

Same with wrong tee. Yes, there may have been several unscrupulous character 200 hundred years ago that attempted to play mind games to win the whiskey by teeing from an alternate place, but have you ever encountered someone who is deliberately cheating by using the wrong tee? Me neither.

 

So you are not buying the idea of avoiding free practicing?

[Mr. Bean]

1 hour ago, Quasimoto said:

Have you ever known someone to practice double hitting the golf ball so that it is an advantage to them? Not me.

 

 

Just came to my mind that some years ago on this forum there was a video of a guy chipping his ball from behind a tree towards the hole in such a way that first he chipped the ball into the air and then struck the ball again to change the path to get around the tree. That guy had certainly trained it and a long time!

[rogolf]

12 minutes ago, Mr. Bean said:

 

Just came to my mind that some years ago on this forum there was a video of a guy chipping his ball from behind a tree towards the hole in such a way that first he chipped the ball into the air and then struck the ball again to change the path to get around the tree. That guy had certainly trained it and a long time!

If it's the video that I recall, he did it first take.  He is a very accomplished player.

[Quasimoto]

1 hour ago, Mr. Bean said:

 

So you are not buying the idea of avoiding free practicing?

I thought we already had a practice rule that defined where it was permitted. Penalty otherwise.

[antip]

10 hours ago, Halebopp said:

1939:

 

Playing Outside of Limits of Teeing Ground
(2) If at any hole a competitor play his first stroke from outside the limits of the Teeing Ground, he shall count that stroke, tee a ball, and play his second stroke from within these limits.

 

1952:

 

2. Stroke Play
If a competitor, when starting a hole, play his first stroke from outside the teeing ground, he shall count that stroke and any subsequent stroke so played and then play from within the teeing ground with the privilege of teeing his ball.

 

1980:

 

b. Stroke Play
If a competitor, when starting a hole, plays a ball from outside the teeing ground, he shall be penalised two strokes and shall then play a ball from within the teeing ground.
Strokes played by a competitor from outside the teeing ground do not count in his score.

Careful Hale, you'll go blind doing that.

[antip]

On the 'logic' of this rule, the antip view is:

The stroke play game requires every player to hit from the same teeing area and get their counting ball into the same hole, for as many holes as the tournament requires. It's that simple and it is that fundamental. Otherwise the comparison between competitors is not fair. 

So if you fail at either end of a hole and don't correct, DQ, you are not in the competition everyone else is in. If you just screw up the teeing end, it's only the general penalty if you correct.

[Mr. Bean]

13 minutes ago, Quasimoto said:

I thought we already had a practice rule that defined where it was permitted. Penalty otherwise.

 

Exactly, and that is why there is an equal penalty in stroke play for playing outside the teeing area so you cannot disguise your practice. Extremely logical IMHO.

[Quasimoto]

Fair enough.

[rogolf]

1 hour ago, Mr. Bean said:

 

Just came to my mind that some years ago on this forum there was a video of a guy chipping his ball from behind a tree towards the hole in such a way that first he chipped the ball into the air and then struck the ball again to change the path to get around the tree. That guy had certainly trained it and a long time!

Is this the video?  If so, I played with him last September.

https://www.facebook.com/golf/videos/double-hit-strategy/135588414037493/