Mud on ball question

[PoolPond]

I'm sure this question has come up and I believe I know the answer but want to make sure.  If you come to your ball and find mud on it, and are playing it down/normal rules, if possible, can you remove some of the mud off as long as you don't touch your ball or cause it to move?

 

Similarly, in a way, if you find a leaf on top of your ball, can you move it as long as you don't touch your ball or cause it to move?  

 

In these two scenarios, the mud and the leaf are both affixed to the ball in a similar manner, meaning both are barely affixed to the ball (maybe some dew or something is the only thing causing both to be affixed to ball) and can be removed without touching the ball or causing it to move.

 

The only rule I see about touching your ball, while not moving it and/or picking it up is this: 

b. Penalty for Lifting or Deliberately Touching Your Ball or Causing It to Move

If you lift or deliberately touch your ball at rest or cause it to move, you get one penalty stroke.

 

Is this the only time "deliberately touching your ball" is mentioned. And if you remove the mud without actually touching your ball and/or moving it, is that allowed?  I'm sure there's a decision on this.  Thanks all! 

[rogolf]

4 minutes ago, PoolPond said:

I'm sure this question has come up and I believe I know the answer but want to make sure.  If you come to your ball and find mud on it, and are playing it down/normal rules, if possible, can you remove some of the mud off as long as you don't touch your ball or cause it to move?

 

Similarly, in a way, if you find a leaf on top of your ball, can you move it as long as you don't touch your ball or cause it to move?  

 

In these two scenarios, the mud and the leaf are both affixed to the ball in a similar manner, meaning both are barely affixed to the ball (maybe some dew or something is the only thing causing both to be affixed to ball) and can be removed without touching the ball or causing it to move.

 

The only rule I see about touching your ball, while not moving it and/or picking it up is this: 

b. Penalty for Lifting or Deliberately Touching Your Ball or Causing It to Move

If you lift or deliberately touch your ball at rest or cause it to move, you get one penalty stroke.

 

Is this the only time "deliberately touching your ball" is mentioned. And if you remove the mud without actually touching your ball and/or moving it, is that allowed?  I'm sure there's a decision on this.  Thanks all! 

From the definition of loose impediments:

Such natural objects are not loose if they are:

• Attached or growing,

• Solidly embedded in the ground (that is, cannot be picked out easily), or

• Sticking to the ball.

[2bGood]

You can but you better ask yourself:

 

[PoolPond]

1 minute ago, 2bGood said:

You can but you better ask yourself:

 

well, not sure luck has anything to do with it.  It looks like with the definition of a loose impediment, you can't. So if both the mud and the leaf are sticking to the ball, they must stay. Thanks all!

[Newby]

35 minutes ago, PoolPond said:

well, not sure luck has anything to do with it.  It looks like with the definition of a loose impediment, you can't. So if both the mud and the leaf are sticking to the ball, they must stay. Thanks all!

Mud is likely to be sticking to the ball. It is very unlikely that a leaf would. More likely that it is just resting on it.

[2bGood]

1 hour ago, PoolPond said:

well, not sure luck has anything to do with it.  It looks like with the definition of a loose impediment, you can't. So if both the mud and the leaf are sticking to the ball, they must stay. Thanks all!

Yes, sorry I should have been more clear. I feel you can try to remove it, as you will only find out if it stuck to the ball when you try - thus the luck involved.

 

It would be an extremely rare situation that I would try it.

 

 

[Colin L]

I'm not at all convinced that there could be mud on your ball unless it was sticking to it.

 

I am, however, convinced that although it doesn't signify a great deal at this stage of the tournament, there is much pleasure in seeing the Scottish flag at the top of the PGA Championship leaderboard.  

Edited May 20, 2021 by Colin L

[dugue4]

Semi serious question - could you remove some of the exterior mud as it would be stuck to the interior mud and not stuck to the ball?

[rogolf]

11 minutes ago, dugue4 said:

Semi serious question - could you remove some of the exterior mud as it would be stuck to the interior mud and not stuck to the ball?

Semi-serious answer - no.  It is now part of the ball and that would be touching the ball deliberately.

[Mr. Bean]

2 hours ago, PoolPond said:

I'm sure this question has come up and I believe I know the answer but want to make sure.  If you come to your ball and find mud on it, and are playing it down/normal rules, if possible, can you remove some of the mud off as long as you don't touch your ball or cause it to move?

 

Similarly, in a way, if you find a leaf on top of your ball, can you move it as long as you don't touch your ball or cause it to move?  

 

In these two scenarios, the mud and the leaf are both affixed to the ball in a similar manner, meaning both are barely affixed to the ball (maybe some dew or something is the only thing causing both to be affixed to ball) and can be removed without touching the ball or causing it to move.

 

The only rule I see about touching your ball, while not moving it and/or picking it up is this: 

b. Penalty for Lifting or Deliberately Touching Your Ball or Causing It to Move

If you lift or deliberately touch your ball at rest or cause it to move, you get one penalty stroke.

 

Is this the only time "deliberately touching your ball" is mentioned. And if you remove the mud without actually touching your ball and/or moving it, is that allowed?  I'm sure there's a decision on this.  Thanks all! 

 

Rule 14.1c tells us that a player may clean their ball when that ball is lifted. Turning that around, a ball may not be cleaned unless it has been lifted. Thus removing mud or an attached leaf off a ball without lifting it is a breach of R14.1c and the penalty, if I read the Rule correctly, is one penalty stroke.

 

A leaf may be lying on a ball or be adhered/sticking to it. A leaf merely lying on a ball is a Loose Impediment and may be removed provided the ball does not move. A leaf sticking to a ball is not a LI and may not be removed unless the ball may be cleaned, which in your case is not the case.

Edited May 20, 2021 by Mr. Bean

[2bGood]

2 hours ago, dugue4 said:

Semi serious question - could you remove some of the exterior mud as it would be stuck to the interior mud and not stuck to the ball?

Semi serious answer

 

What is mud? What is sticking?

 

Mud is wet dirt. How wet does it need to be before it is mud? There is a grey area in knowing when mud is mud. 

 

Sticking is adhesion and at molecular level nearly every object resting on a golf ball has some (minute) level of adhesion. How much adhesion needs to occur before the ROG would view it as sticking? Again a there is a grey area.

 

Not sure this is the correct answer, but in application I tend to think  if you can remove an object without touching or moving the ball, it may not be sufficiently "stuck" to be considered sticking to the ball under the ROG.

 

On personal level I don't really test the theoretical limits of these ideas though 😀. When in doubt I keep my hands off. 

 

 

 

 

[Mr. Bean]

22 minutes ago, 2bGood said:

Semi serious answer

 

What is mud? What is sticking?

 

Mud is wet dirt. How wet does it need to be before it is mud? There is a grey area in knowing when mud is mud. 

 

Sticking is adhesion and at molecular level nearly every object resting on a golf ball has some (minute) level of adhesion. How much adhesion needs to occur before the ROG would view it as sticking? Again a there is a grey area.

 

Not sure this is the correct answer, but in application I tend to think  if you can remove an object without touching or moving the ball, it may not be sufficiently "stuck" to be considered sticking to the ball under the ROG.

 

On personal level I don't really test the theoretical limits of these ideas though 😀. When in doubt I keep my hands off. 

 

 

Sticking/adhering is actually very easy to test. Pick the ball up and rotate it. Anything not sticking/adhering to the ball from the RoG point of view will fall off.

 

The downside with the test is that you will get a penalty if you lift your ball without any Rule allowing you to do it 😂

 

Edited May 20, 2021 by Mr. Bean

[2bGood]

26 minutes ago, Mr. Bean said:

 

Sticking/adhering is actually very easy to test. Pick the ball up and rotate it. Anything not sticking/adhering to the ball from the RoG point of view will fall off.

 

The downside with the test is that you will get a penalty if you lift your ball without any Rule allowing you to do it 😂

 

I know you are joking around- but even that test would not be sufficient. The object falling off the ball would only show the force of gravity was greater than the force of adhesion. It would not show that no adhesion occurred. 

 

Of course I am pretty sure none of this matters - can't say in the few thousand rounds I have played have I ever been faced with have to decide if something was sticking or not that could also be potentially removed without moving the ball. 

[rogolf]

15 minutes ago, 2bGood said:

I know you are joking around- but even that test would not be sufficient. The object falling off the ball would only show the force of gravity was greater than the force of adhesion. It would not show that no adhesion occurred. 

 

Of course I am pretty sure none of this matters - can't say in the few thousand rounds I have played have I ever been faced with have to decide if something was sticking or not that could also be potentially removed without moving the ball. 

Hit the ball.  The sudden increase in velocity from zero to >100 mph will surely dislodge most of the issue, aided by the rotational velocity.

[Mr. Bean]

14 minutes ago, 2bGood said:

I know you are joking around- but even that test would not be sufficient. The object falling off the ball would only show the force of gravity was greater than the force of adhesion. It would not show that no adhesion occurred. 

 

 

At this point we need to define what does 'adhered' mean. The way I see it is that an object is adhered to another object if outside force is needed to take these two objects apart. Gravity is not an outside force in this context as it is present everywhere. A Loose Impediment is loose only if it is not adhered to a ball and to see if it is loose rotating a ball is sufficient.

 

Sure, even between a dry leaf and a ball there is some amount of adhesion but that adhesion is too weak to keep those two objects together and that is why you are allowed to pick up a dry leaf from top of a ball. But lifting a wet leaf may be a different story and the way I see it from the RoG point of view is that if a wet leaf is large enough to fall off when the ball is rotated then the leaf is loose and thus a LI. If it stays adhered to the ball it is not a LI and is adhered. Same goes with grass cuttings, they are adhered when wet or moist but most often not adhered when very dry.

[nsxguy]

22 minutes ago, 2bGood said:

I know you are joking around- but even that test would not be sufficient. The object falling off the ball would only show the force of gravity was greater than the force of adhesion. It would not show that no adhesion occurred. 

 

Of course I am pretty sure none of this matters - can't say in the few thousand rounds I have played have I ever been faced with have to decide if something was sticking or not that could also be potentially removed without moving the ball. 

 

And yet here we are, down to the molecular level.

[Mr. Bean]

24 minutes ago, 2bGood said:

Of course I am pretty sure none of this matters - can't say in the few thousand rounds I have played have I ever been faced with have to decide if something was sticking or not that could also be potentially removed without moving the ball. 

 

Small wet leaves are a perfect example of an object that can be adhered to the ball but can be removed without moving the ball. Been there, seen that.

Edited May 20, 2021 by Mr. Bean

[2bGood]

5 minutes ago, Mr. Bean said:

 

At this point we need to define what does 'adhered' mean. The way I see it is that an object is adhered to another object if outside force is needed to take these two objects apart. Gravity is not an outside force in this context as it is present everywhere. A Loose Impediment is loose only if it is not adhered to a ball and to see if it is loose rotating a ball is sufficient.

 

Sure, even between a dry leaf and a ball there is some amount of adhesion but that adhesion is too weak to keep those two objects together and that is why you are allowed to pick up a dry leaf from top of a ball. But lifting a wet leaf may be a different story and the way I see it from the RoG point of view is that if a wet leaf is large enough to fall off when the ball is rotated then the leaf is loose and thus a LI. If it stays adhered to the ball it is not a LI and is adhered. Same goes with grass cuttings, they are adhered when wet or moist but most often not adhered when very dry.

With your test of spinning the ball, you are not testing adhesion independently you are testing the adhesion level in relationship to the weight of the object. A heavy leaf that falls off may be just as stuck as light leaf that does not. 

[Mr. Bean]

2 minutes ago, 2bGood said:

With your test of spinning the ball, you are not testing adhesion independently you are testing the adhesion level in relationship to the weight of the object. A heavy leaf that falls off may be just as stuck as light leaf that does not. 

 

How would you test whether an object is adhered to a ball or not? Or how would you define 'adhered' ?

 

Edited May 20, 2021 by Mr. Bean

[rogolf]

Please, not another argument about the meaning of a word or words! 

[Mr. Bean]

There is no need for you to take part in this discussion if you do not find it interesting.

[rogolf]

35 minutes ago, Mr. Bean said:

There is no need for you to take part in this discussion if you do not find it interesting.

You're right, and I won't, since I don't see how it applies to the Rules.

I will ask a question though, under what Rule would a player be able to legitimately pick up a ball in play to see if the material was sticking to it?

Edited May 21, 2021 by rogolf

[Mr. Bean]

39 minutes ago, rogolf said:

You're right, and I won't, since I don't see how it applies to the Rules.

I will ask a question though, under what Rule would a player be able to legitimately pick up a ball in play to see if the material was sticking to it?

 

No Rule as such would allow it but that is not the point. We are trying to establish the meaning of 'adhere' because it is an interesting subject. The situation might occur, though, for example when lifting an assisting ball (+ the 3 other cases when a layer is not allowed to clean a lifted ball).

[rogolf]

4 minutes ago, Mr. Bean said:

 

No Rule as such would allow it but that is not the point. We are trying to establish the meaning of 'adhere' because it is an interesting subject. The situation might occur, though, for example when lifting an assisting ball (+ the 3 other cases when a layer is not allowed to clean a lifted ball).

Note that 'adhere' is not in the Definition.

Edited May 21, 2021 by rogolf

[Mr. Bean]

10 minutes ago, rogolf said:

Note that 'adhere' is not in the Definition.

 

True, it is 'sticking' today but the meaning is the same, I suppose. At least from the Rules point of view.

[2bGood]

57 minutes ago, rogolf said:

You're right, and I won't, since I don't see how it applies to the Rules.

I will ask a question though, under what Rule would a player be able to legitimately pick up a ball in play to see if the material was sticking to it?

Nice redirect. 

 

How about identifying the ball? If you have something on top of your ball that obscures your markings so much that the ball needs to be lifted to check if it is in fact yours.

[rogolf]

17 minutes ago, 2bGood said:

Nice redirect. 

 

How about identifying the ball? If you have something on top of your ball that obscures your markings so much that the ball needs to be lifted to check if it is in fact yours.

My question was phrased so as to make the primary purpose of lifting to determine if a material was sticking to it, eg, by rotating the ball after lifting.  I don't know of such a permission in the Rules.

[2bGood]

Just now, rogolf said:

My question was phrased so as to make the primary purpose of lifting to determine if a material was sticking to it, eg, by rotating the ball after lifting.  I don't know of such a permission in the Rules.

There is absolutely none (nor I expect will one every be made). 

[Mr. Bean]

Rotating the ball is just a means to check whether the object is sticking to the ball or not, it is not the primary purpose of lifting.

[rogolf]

3 minutes ago, 2bGood said:

There is absolutely none (nor I expect will one every be made). 

I agree, so the idea of "rotating the ball to see if an object is sticking to it" is totally fallacious and irrelevant.