First Garmin, then Bushnell...Who's Next?

[prusd]

So with Garmin and Bushnell/Foresight surprising everyone this summer in the PLM space, I thought I would take this time to ask if anyone knows, or would just like to pontificate on which company might be next in producing the next affordable home LM.  With these announcements of devices costing between 600-3000 dollars (The Tiger LM, the Fullswing Kit costs around 4k I believe), the days of paying 6k-20k for an LM for an amateur to use at home appear to be over.  

 

Given that Garmin and Bushnell can essentially use economies of scale to produce these at lower costs (I know there are other factors), I wonder why other companies haven't done something similar.  I am essentially thinking of companies like Samsung or Apple.  They have been working with cameras and optics for roughly the past 15 years.  Since both companies are capitalized at close to 1 trillion dollars, you would think they might consider putting out a low cost golf LM.  Especially in Samsung's case.  Isn't virtual golf very popular in Korea?  Wasn't the UNEEKOR co-developed with Korean engineers?  Given the vast scale, putting together a reliable sim LM should be somewhat easy for them.

 

Also, what about companies like Callaway or TAylormade?  Given their size and knowledge of the golf consumer, maybe they could put together an affordable home LM for their customers.  I would happily buy a sim from them if it was reliable and at the right price point.

 

The PGA Show is coming up in Florida shortly after the new year (not sure if its virtual or in person this time), so I wonder if any new devices will be announced.  If anyone has any insider information, or would like to speculate on what might be upcoming in 2022, I think this would be a good space to share.  Very exciting times going forward.

[hammersia]

It's not a bad question. 

I'm surprised Callaway or Taylormade haven't done anything certainly.

Callaway had a branded GPS a while ago?

 

It's not like they would have to engineer it themselves, it can all be contracted out, maybe there are commercial agreements with Trackman and FS that the club makers won't get involved.

[jagmanjoe]

There is another one that is in process but will be a fixed unit.  It appears to have been delayed by a Covid issue involving one of its developers but the company is called Bullseye and pricing is $3500 and $5500 if I remember correctly and utilizes four 4K cameras.  If they can pull it off, I think it could well be a contender.  

 

https://www.bullseyegolfsims.com/bullseye-lm/

 

 

[Frankensteins Monster]

6 hours ago, jagmanjoe said:

There is another one that is in process but will be a fixed unit.  It appears to have been delayed by a Covid issue involving one of its developers but the company is called Bullseye and pricing is $3500 and $5500 if I remember correctly and utilizes four 4K cameras.  If they can pull it off, I think it could well be a contender.  

 

https://www.bullseyegolfsims.com/bullseye-lm/

 

 

I don't have high hopes for a company who can't organize their simple website menu and have the very first button named "#5 (NO TITLE)."

[prusd]

10 hours ago, jagmanjoe said:

There is another one that is in process but will be a fixed unit.  It appears to have been delayed by a Covid issue involving one of its developers but the company is called Bullseye and pricing is $3500 and $5500 if I remember correctly and utilizes four 4K cameras.  If they can pull it off, I think it could well be a contender.  

 

https://www.bullseyegolfsims.com/bullseye-lm/

 

 

Cool, thanks for sharing this.  Like someone mentioned, their website doesn't inspire all that much confidence.  But offering GSPro as one of the software choices does sound intriguing.  Hopefully they will be at the PGA show in January and we can learn some more about their product.  

[games]

I expect this will be the year someone releases a prototype "smart" ball for indoor simulation. 

 

If you could take an R10 with the club metrics it purports to measure, then add the ball data (spin and spin axis) it's having trouble with, you could sell the system for $1000 and have a "razors and blades" model.

[hammersia]

21 hours ago, hammersia said:

It's not a bad question. 

I'm surprised Callaway or Taylormade haven't done anything certainly.

Callaway had a branded GPS a while ago?

 

It's not like they would have to engineer it themselves, it can all be contracted out, maybe there are commercial agreements with Trackman and FS that the club makers won't get involved.

 

Another reason that Callaway and Taylormade (and Samsung for that matter) might not be getting involved is from the customer service point of view.

 

All launch monitors to date have been pretty fiddly, temperamental things, with endless unhappy customers at the consumer level.

 

They maybe are waiting  on, or developing, absolutely idiot proof tech before daring to expose their customer service departments to the avalanche of potential complaints.

[prusd]

Not sure where I read this, it was either somewhere on this forum or on another golf simulator forum board, but someone briefly mentioned that they heard UNEEKOR MIGHT be working on a portable launch monitor.  Again, I dont have the link and I dont want to get anyone's hopes up as its just a rumor, but still good to know.  

 

Know hope.  

[Wildest1]

Last week I emailed Full Swing Golf, asking for updated information on their $4,000 Tiger Woods "Full Swing Kit".

 

Any ideas on how this radar-based system will compare to the Bushnell Launch Pro? 

 

Here's their response:

 

We plan to launch the KIT to market in late-September.  Once your fully refundable $100 deposit is submitted, you will be notified 15-30 days prior to your ship date to handle the balance.

 

With the Full Swing Kit, you will be able to get 16 points of data feedback after each shot, as well as swing 1080p HD Video Capture.

 

1.       Carry Distance

2.       Total Distance

3.       Side Carry

4.       Side Total

5.       Apex

6.       Launch Angle

7.       Horizontal Angle (Ball Direction)

8.       Attack Angle

9.       Club Speed

10.   Ball Speed

11.   Smash Factor

12.   Club Path

13.   Club Face

14.   Spin

15.   Spin Axis

16.  Face to Path

 

The link for the site is here: https://www.fullswinggolf.com/kit-pre-sale/

 

Thank you for your interest,

 

GRANT CALLAHAN Director International Sales/Product Specialist

Office: 858.529-7094

[prusd]

56 minutes ago, Wildest1 said:

Last week I emailed Full Swing Golf, asking for updated information on their $4,000 Tiger Woods "Full Swing Kit".

 

Any ideas on how this radar-based system will compare to the Bushnell Launch Pro? 

 

Here's their response:

 

We plan to launch the KIT to market in late-September.  Once your fully refundable $100 deposit is submitted, you will be notified 15-30 days prior to your ship date to handle the balance.

 

With the Full Swing Kit, you will be able to get 16 points of data feedback after each shot, as well as swing 1080p HD Video Capture.

 

1.       Carry Distance

2.       Total Distance

3.       Side Carry

4.       Side Total

5.       Apex

6.       Launch Angle

7.       Horizontal Angle (Ball Direction)

8.       Attack Angle

9.       Club Speed

10.   Ball Speed

11.   Smash Factor

12.   Club Path

13.   Club Face

14.   Spin

15.   Spin Axis

16.  Face to Path

 

The link for the site is here: https://www.fullswinggolf.com/kit-pre-sale/

 

Thank you for your interest,

 

GRANT CALLAHAN Director International Sales/Product Specialist

Office: 858.529-7094

Cool, thanks for sharing this info with us. Looks like it has pretty promising club data.  Now we need to know when they are releasing this thing to the public.  I'll speculate again.  Since they called this Tiger's launch monitor, my bet is it will coincide when Tiger returns to the tour.  Probably sometime next year in 2022.

[prusd]

Whoops, I am getting old.  Didn't notice they mentioned the launch date in the message.  I am embarrassed.  Dont know if I can delete my previous post.

[Wildest1]

Note that Full Swing doesn't mention which of the 16 data points are actually measured, and which are calculated. Included software? Who knows? Their graphic data table needs a little proofreading as well: Spin Rate is listed as "2,686 YARDS" instead of RPMs.

 

At $4,000, the Full Swing Kit will be competing against the Bushnell Launch Pro / Foresight GC3 with about the same "release" date and at what may be similar pricing.

 

It should be an interesting competition.

 

[Cactus Jack]

4 hours ago, Wildest1 said:

Note that Full Swing doesn't mention which of the 16 data points are actually measured, and which are calculated. Included software? Who knows? Their graphic data table needs a little proofreading as well: Spin Rate is listed as "2,686 YARDS" instead of RPMs.

 

At $4,000, the Full Swing Kit will be competing against the Bushnell Launch Pro / Foresight GC3 with about the same "release" date and at what may be similar pricing.

 

It should be an interesting competition.

 

 

I hope I'm wrong because the Full Swing Kit looks great, but this leans hard toward vaporware vs. an actual product. One things for sure though, I'm excited to see how the LM space shapes up within the next 30 days.

[Noyes26]

In my opinion the proper answer for the OP is it’s just not that large of a market when it comes to companies such as Apple, Samsung, etc. 

[LBB]

On 8/22/2021 at 5:35 PM, prusd said:

Given that Garmin and Bushnell can essentially use economies of scale to produce these at lower costs (I know there are other factors), I wonder why other companies haven't done something similar.  I am essentially thinking of companies like Samsung or Apple.  They have been working with cameras and optics for roughly the past 15 years.  Since both companies are capitalized at close to 1 trillion dollars, you would think they might consider putting out a low cost golf LM.  Especially in Samsung's case.  Isn't virtual golf very popular in Korea?  Wasn't the UNEEKOR co-developed with Korean engineers?  Given the vast scale, putting together a reliable sim LM should be somewhat easy for them.

 

 

If you could convince Apple that they could sell 10 million launch monitors annually, they probably would take a look at it.

iPhones - 217 million sold in 2018

Apple Watch - 34 million sold in 2020

Macs and iPads - 81 million sold 2020

Airpods - 60 million sold in 2019

 

Apple is also in the business of releasing new products annually for most of their line, knowing they have the type of customer base that will replace their current devices with whatever new functionality they can develop to convince the customer it's "worth it."

 

If you were an Apple stockholder, and Apple told you they were allocating even just 20 resources to develop a world class launch monitor, which at best would sell 250,000 units over 5 years, instead of allocating those same resources to focus on a product that could sell 250 million units of the same 5 years, what would you say?

[hammersia]

2 hours ago, games said:

Mass market consumer products like iPhones are now considered a necessity with distributors networks that take on financing to remove upfront barrier to purchase.
 

PLMs are a niche product with markup specific to their targeted high end consumer.  

Independent Apple developers likely have apps just waiting for one or two iPhone upgrades or adds to existing hardware to make a smartphone camera-based PLM reality.  Please don’t reply with videos of the current junk apps that don’t work…

 

I have also argued this, that in reality the true mass consumer market for PLMs will be smartphone camera based. Which unfortunately I think rules out a 1000 dollar camera based solution ever appearing.

 

Link to a current phone based app video below: 

 

(joke)

Edited September 23, 2021 by hammersia

[prusd]

Looks like these guys fixed their landing page compared to earlier in this thread

 

https://www.bullseyegolfsims.com/bullseye-lm/

[LBB]

8 hours ago, games said:

Mass market consumer products like iPhones are now considered a necessity with distributors networks that take on financing to remove upfront barrier to purchase.
 

PLMs are a niche product with markup specific to their targeted high end consumer.  

Independent Apple developers likely have apps just waiting for one or two iPhone upgrades or adds to existing hardware to make a smartphone camera-based PLM reality.  Please don’t reply with videos of the current junk apps that don’t work…

iPhones max out at 240 fps for their cameras.  There are already andriod phones that can go up to 920 fps.  A GC quad captures at up to 10,000 fps.  SkyTrak supposedly captures at 300 fps.  Seems like a phone could be very close to matching SkyTrak type accuracy with the right app development, but given the footprint limitation of where cameras can be placed on a phone, I don't think it will ever get to accuracy of a GC2, GC3, GCquad, or GC Hawk simply due to less camera angles.

 

No doubt that an iPhone camera will eventually get to 920 fps or higher, so a company like SkyTrak is not going to be able to be viable long term if it stays with a single camera setup unless it moves to significantly higher fps than what phones are already at or heading to.

 

[hammersia]

12 hours ago, LBB said:

iPhones max out at 240 fps for their cameras.  There are already andriod phones that can go up to 920 fps.  A GC quad captures at up to 10,000 fps.  SkyTrak supposedly captures at 300 fps.  Seems like a phone could be very close to matching SkyTrak type accuracy with the right app development, but given the footprint limitation of where cameras can be placed on a phone, I don't think it will ever get to accuracy of a GC2, GC3, GCquad, or GC Hawk simply due to less camera angles.

 

No doubt that an iPhone camera will eventually get to 920 fps or higher, so a company like SkyTrak is not going to be able to be viable long term if it stays with a single camera setup unless it moves to significantly higher fps than what phones are already at or heading to.

 

There was a previous discussion on this, just in relation to fps, that all phone cameras now are "global" shutters, that the sensor reads all the pixels simultaneously all the time, the fps is simply the software / processor capability and it's setting - for a phone that means a large proportion of the processing power kept aside for the normal background phone functions. 

 

With sufficient available processor power, millions of fps could be read off a normal phone camera apparently.

[prusd]

Hey,

 

I just realized this, and I may be behind the curve, but GSpro announced their release date.  ITs coming OCtober 1st.  500 dollar for a lifetime subscription.  And also theres a yearly sub.

 

https://gsprogolf.com/

PRICING

We promised to offer the best simulator software on the market, at the best price possible, and we did not disappoint! With two affordable options available, we have made it possible for everyone to get involved.

 

GSPro Lifetime

 

^$500

• You own it, forever!
• Includes all updates to the purchased major version
• 4K Graphics
• Driving Range
• Community Course Support
• Online Multiplayer*
• SGT Online Tour (Requires SGT Subscription)
•  

GSPro Annual w/Simulator

^$250 / year

^$200 / year

• Special introduction price. Lock in at $200 a year for the lifetime of the subscription. (promo ends 11/1/2021)
• Includes updates for the life of the subscription
• 4K Graphics
• Driving Range
• Community Course Support
• Online Multiplayer
• SGT Online Tour (Requires SGT Subscription)

[prusd]

On 8/26/2021 at 3:56 PM, prusd said:

Not sure where I read this, it was either somewhere on this forum or on another golf simulator forum board, but someone briefly mentioned that they heard UNEEKOR MIGHT be working on a portable launch monitor.  Again, I dont have the link and I dont want to get anyone's hopes up as its just a rumor, but still good to know.  

 

Know hope.  

My life is pretty boring at the moment, so I'll take any small victories I can get.  This post aged well from this past August.  

 

 

[darunia484]

7 minutes ago, prusd said:

My life is pretty boring at the moment, so I'll take any small victories I can get.  This post aged well from this past August.  

 

 

Really excited about this! Already have a mevo plus, but feel like this would be more accurate (probably more pricy though)

[Caper33]

44 minutes ago, darunia484 said:

Really excited about this! Already have a mevo plus, but feel like this would be more accurate (probably more pricy though)

If it’s as accurate as a gc3 and priced somewhere between a mevo + and a gc3, I’ll be ecstatic 

[rcolwell7]

3 hours ago, Caper33 said:

If it’s as accurate as a gc3 and priced somewhere between a mevo + and a gc3, I’ll be ecstatic 

If it's sub $5K and not owned by Vista Outdoors, I'll be estatic.

[hammersia]

I noticed there was an Eye XO in the ceiling while they are demoing the Eye mini? Data cable going to the mini? Is it conceivable the mini doesn’t yet work and they have the data generated from the Eye XO piped into it?
 

 

[DS12312]

Interesting concept, but you would think the screen on the Eye Mini wouldn't be able to accept data like a computer monitor from another device.

[hammersia]

6 hours ago, DS12312 said:

Interesting concept, but you would think the screen on the Eye Mini wouldn't be able to accept data like a computer monitor from another device.

If it’s a one off prototype or mock up rather than a production item, it’s very possible.