Rocco Mediate's swing

[Ayersjj]

On 9/1/2021 at 1:28 PM, naval2006 said:

Rocco has the ultimate Ballard swing, even more than Jim Colbert. If there were more Jimmy Ballards  there would definitely be a lot more good players around.  I love Rocco’s swing and cool. @97speedster is the man to go for on this forum: Jimmy’s student, great player and most generous and passionate about Jimmy Ballard’s swing. 

I think Curtis Strange 85-88 was pure Ballard. Listen to some of Suttons podcasts

 

 

Edited November 18, 2021 by Ayersjj

[torbill]

Hello JJ!

 

You know, in my mind’s eye Colbert was as good an example of Ballard swing principles as anybody I ever saw.  The trouble is, I can’t find videos of him, in order to check out my memory.  Do you have anything?  The funny thing is, when Colbert was cleaning up on the senior tour just about every week I wasn’t into golf swing principles, so I don’t recall thinking “that’s a pure Ballard swing”, even though it was a distinctive swing.  What I do remember thinking is “Jeez, that guy hits more fairways than Calvin Peete!”. 

[garyt]

1 hour ago, torbill said:

Hello JJ!

 

You know, in my mind’s eye Colbert was as good an example of Ballard swing principles as anybody I ever saw.  The trouble is, I can’t find videos of him, in order to check out my memory.  Do you have anything?  The funny thing is, when Colbert was cleaning up on the senior tour just about every week I wasn’t into golf swing principles, so I don’t recall thinking “that’s a pure Ballard swing”, even though it was a distinctive swing.  What I do remember thinking is “Jeez, that guy hits more fairways than Calvin Peete!”. 

Somebody posted a video of Colbert hitting balls with ballard and another protoge watching in one of the many Ballard threads here.

[Ayersjj]

On 11/13/2021 at 10:33 AM, torbill said:

Hello JJ!

 

You know, in my mind’s eye Colbert was as good an example of Ballard swing principles as anybody I ever saw.  The trouble is, I can’t find videos of him, in order to check out my memory.  Do you have anything?  The funny thing is, when Colbert was cleaning up on the senior tour just about every week I wasn’t into golf swing principles, so I don’t recall thinking “that’s a pure Ballard swing”, even though it was a distinctive swing.  What I do remember thinking is “Jeez, that guy hits more fairways than Calvin Peete!”. 

Hey there. No doubt Colbert was a staple Ballard disciple.

 

Edited November 18, 2021 by Ayersjj

[Ayersjj]

On 11/13/2021 at 11:55 AM, garyt said:

Somebody posted a video of Colbert hitting balls with ballard and another protoge watching in one of the many Ballard threads here.

Find it and post!!! Colbert seems non existent in video alongside Leonard Thompson both 100% Ballard guys. Its a shame. 

Edited November 18, 2021 by Ayersjj

[BMC]

I've been s student of the Ballard swing since 1987.  To me, the finest example is Annika Sorenstam.   Pure Ballard and her record speaks for itself.  Lots of videos of Annika to watch.

[chipa]

Update: I have been trying to make the Rocco/Ballard swing off and on for two years with inconsistent success, especially how the hands are used. In fact Rocco says in one of his videos his hands don't do anything and he doesn't swing "around" his body like other methods. Nonetheless I hurt my problematic left knee trying to use this concept.

 

However, I realize the Rocco swing appears to be easier on my back when I get it right so I have kept at it. Fortunately, I realize Walter Hagen had very similar mechanics and a release through the ball where he doesn't drop his right shoulder. After watching all of the videos available I notice he has a 1/4  takeaway sequence rather than a swing or a waggle. This has been instrumental in understanding this type of swing.

 

I now understand why Rocco says that the hands are passive and Ballard says that the elbow "c0ck" the hands. Nonetheless, I couldn't get there from their advice but by looking at Hagen's videos. In effect the upper left arm controls the takeaway with the forearm and hands holding on passively and positioning themselves according to what the upper left arm is doing. Also, the upper shoulders turn through impact more than other methods hence the odd way Rocco's and Hagen's head turn after he hands pass impact.

 

Finally, I find it of utmost importance to have the weight toward the front of the feet as Rocco recommends, this allows for the lower body to easily resist and have the right side loaded automatically due to the upper left arm pushing back. The legs feel very active but with very little lateral movement. Here is a video of Hagen that has been instrumental in understanding this swing.

 

"Walter Hagen Practicing at CCR"    https://vimeo.com/610139500

 

[PJ1120]

3 hours ago, chipa said:

Update: I have been trying to make the Rocco/Ballard swing off and on for two years with inconsistent success, especially how the hands are used. In fact Rocco says in one of his videos his hands don't do anything and he doesn't swing "around" his body like other methods. Nonetheless I hurt my problematic left knee trying to use this concept.

 

However, I realize the Rocco swing appears to be easier on my back when I get it right so I have kept at it. Fortunately, I realize Walter Hagen had very similar mechanics and a release through the ball where he doesn't drop his right shoulder. After watching all of the videos available I notice he has a 1/4  takeaway sequence rather than a swing or a waggle. This has been instrumental in understanding this type of swing.

 

I now understand why Rocco says that the hands are passive and Ballard says that the elbow "c0ck" the hands. Nonetheless, I couldn't get there from their advice but by looking at Hagen's videos. In effect the upper left arm controls the takeaway with the forearm and hands holding on passively and positioning themselves according to what the upper left arm is doing. Also, the upper shoulders turn through impact more than other methods hence the odd way Rocco's and Hagen's head turn after he hands pass impact.

 

Finally, I find it of utmost importance to have the weight toward the front of the feet as Rocco recommends, this allows for the lower body to easily resist and have the right side loaded automatically due to the upper left arm pushing back. The legs feel very active but with very little lateral movement. Here is a video of Hagen that has been instrumental in understanding this swing.

 

"Walter Hagen Practicing at CCR"    https://vimeo.com/610139500

 

Huh?

[torbill]

30 minutes ago, PJ1120 said:

Huh?

Exactly.

[Zitlow]

@chipaThanks for posting the Walter Hagen video, good stuff. 

[orr444]

I did an online lesson with Jimmy last year. I couldn't write down fast enough what he was telling me. Pure genius in my opinion and he helped me a lot. Well worth the 150 I paid we spent an hour talking on the computer!!

[chipa]

Here is a still of my downswing. I have come a long way thanks to looking at Rocco and Hagen's swings. I still have work to do as I am trying to limit my lateral hip movement and not drop my right hand along the shaft during impact. My swing approach has been the setup and takeaway mechanics as opposed to any type of downswing manipulation. My downswing starts by releasing the tension in my feet and legs then the left side and then I finish the downswing releasing the right side, as Bobby Jones recommended. This is a 43" 3 wood and the clubhead speed was probably around 106 or so.

[Ayersjj]

Anyone notice how most of Ballards tour players seem to swing on top of the backswing plane thru the ball? Rocco’s first move is out to the ball with hands 

 

knudson sutton both have that transition move as well

 

https://www.secretgolf.com/videos/vintage-vault/slow-motion/slow-motion--pga--pga-tour-champions/rocco-mediate-dtl-view-short-iron

[torbill]

2 hours ago, chipa said:

Here is a still of my downswing. I have come a long way thanks to looking at Rocco and Hagen's swings. I still have work to do as I am trying to limit my lateral hip movement and not drop my right hand along the shaft during impact. My swing approach has been the setup and takeaway mechanics as opposed to any type of downswing manipulation. My downswing starts by releasing the tension in my feet and legs then the left side and then I finish the downswing releasing the right side, as Bobby Jones recommended. This is a 43" 3 wood and the clubhead speed was probably around 106 or so.

Well, a swing can’t be analyzed from a single still photo, but I’d say things look pretty darned good so far as it goes.  Assuming that you got your weight loaded into your right side, the thing that I like is the obvious control of your right leg, you could never get into that position if you had swayed on the backswing.  Are you getting a strong loading into your right leg on the backswing, are you getting strongly to your left side on the follow through?  

[chipa]

On 2/4/2022 at 1:00 AM, torbill said:

Well, a swing can’t be analyzed from a single still photo, but I’d say things look pretty darned good so far as it goes.  Assuming that you got your weight loaded into your right side, the thing that I like is the obvious control of your right leg, you could never get into that position if you had swayed on the backswing.  Are you getting a strong loading into your right leg on the backswing, are you getting strongly to your left side on the follow through?  

 

My right leg is braced from the beginning of my swing and I start with a turn then I push my arm and shoulder against both feet resisting which makes it easy for my lower body to start pushing to the target before my backswing has finished. I have always had a good weightshift when I was swinging well but I didn't understand how to get into that position consistently. This was until I saw Rocco's video below, that has helped my consistency immensely.

 

 

[Zitlow]

@chipa You look like you're getting ready to unleash the kraken in the photo you posted. 

[Ayersjj]

On 9/1/2021 at 1:28 PM, naval2006 said:

Rocco has the ultimate Ballard swing, even more than Jim Colbert. If there were more Jimmy Ballards  there would definitely be a lot more good players around.  I love Rocco’s swing and cool. @97speedster is the man to go for on this forum: Jimmy’s student, great player and most generous and passionate about Jimmy Ballard’s swing. 

Speedster quit Ballard a few years ago. He said that Jimmy teaches fundamentals ok for amateurs but there is no compression. I disagreed maybe even pissd him off and he left the Ballard threads deleting all his messages. I wish him well but would never bring speedster up as a Ballard advocate. Of course he could always come bak after trial and error of other methods that ruin joints. 

[naval2006]

16 hours ago, Ayersjj said:

Speedster quit Ballard a few years ago. He said that Jimmy teaches fundamentals ok for amateurs but there is no compression. I disagreed maybe even pissd him off and he left the Ballard threads deleting all his messages. I wish him well but would never bring speedster up as a Ballard advocate. Of course he could always come bak after trial and error of other methods that ruin joints. 

So that was the end of it? I used to follow that thread avidly and a few years ago I noticed Speedster had pulled out all his posts. I didn’t know it was because he changed instructor. The guy could hit the ball and he was a Ballard expert. But I believe you are well into Ballard’s swing, @Ayersjj, right?

[Ayersjj]

7 hours ago, naval2006 said:

So that was the end of it? I used to follow that thread avidly and a few years ago I noticed Speedster had pulled out all his posts. I didn’t know it was because he changed instructor. The guy could hit the ball and he was a Ballard expert. But I believe you are well into Ballard’s swing, @Ayersjj, right?

Yes 100% since 1987

[chipa]

On 3/11/2022 at 2:09 PM, Ayersjj said:

He said that Jimmy teaches fundamentals ok for amateurs but there is no compression. 

 

This is an interesting topic. From what I can tell I think the feeling of compression isn't what many claim to be, ie the ball being compressed but the mechanics of the downswing with the arms in a certain position through impact that give the impression of compression.

 

It certainly wouldn't appear to be the ball compression as any high speed video will show that the ball compresses proportionally to the velocity and angel of impact. Therefore, as long as the face is relatively square and the strike is near the center cg of the club then the only thing that causes the ball to compress is the velocity based on my understanding of physics as an engineer. It's also possible that if the clubhead is accelerating through impact instead of a static velocity that this could influence the feel at impact.

 

In my own experimentation with different swing techniques and also suffering from hooking with an overactive right hand I would say it has to do with the mechanics right before impact that give the sensation of "compression".

 

Also, based on my efforts to do the Rocco method (I say that because I'm not sure if he is the perfect Ballard model) since last November is that the feeling of "compression" (as I have explained) is less, because I feel the the upper shoulder turn is more active than other methods I have tried with the hands reaction being more constrained/limited by with the upper arm and shoulders are doing. For me this is a good thing to control my hooking. I can also validate Rocco's claim that this method is easier on the back (and my left knee due not less hip slide). I feel certain that the upper shoulder turn is the difference, ie in other methods I don't always turn my upper shoulders, therefore, with more rotation of the upper back vertebrae but less overall rotation of the spine as a whole compared to the hips the net result is each vertebrae would have to turn less, thus less back strain due to rotation.

 

[Ayersjj]

8 hours ago, chipa said:

 

This is an interesting topic. From what I can tell I think the feeling of compression isn't what many claim to be, ie the ball being compressed but the mechanics of the downswing with the arms in a certain position through impact that give the impression of compression.

 

It certainly wouldn't appear to be the ball compression as any high speed video will show that the ball compresses proportionally to the velocity and angel of impact. Therefore, as long as the face is relatively square and the strike is near the center cg of the club then the only thing that causes the ball to compress is the velocity based on my understanding of physics as an engineer. It's also possible that if the clubhead is accelerating through impact instead of a static velocity that this could influence the feel at impact.

 

In my own experimentation with different swing techniques and also suffering from hooking with an overactive right hand I would say it has to do with the mechanics right before impact that give the sensation of "compression".

 

Also, based on my efforts to do the Rocco method (I say that because I'm not sure if he is the perfect Ballard model) since last November is that the feeling of "compression" (as I have explained) is less, because I feel the the upper shoulder turn is more active than other methods I have tried with the hands reaction being more constrained/limited by with the upper arm and shoulders are doing. For me this is a good thing to control my hooking. I can also validate Rocco's claim that this method is easier on the back (and my left knee due not less hip slide). I feel certain that the upper shoulder turn is the difference, ie in other methods I don't always turn my upper shoulders, therefore, with more rotation of the upper back vertebrae but less overall rotation of the spine as a whole compared to the hips the net result is each vertebrae would have to turn less, thus less back strain due to rotation.

 

Chips. I am pretty certain those that leave Ballard are experiencing some sort of “lack of connection” vs lack of compression. This method does not work well disconnected where other methods are more hands and arms dominant. Ballard said when Curtis left him he started trying to do it with is “hands” and never won again. Sutton to this day said he doesnt want to feel his hands in the swing. That sounds crazy to folks like Malaska and Flick followers. The elite group that stick with Ballard fundamentals are those that springing the shaft is premier vs some kind of shaft lean compression fad.  IMO

Edited March 13, 2022 by Ayersjj

[chipa]

1 hour ago, Ayersjj said:

Chips. I am pretty certain those that leave Ballard are experiencing some sort of “lack of connection” vs lack of compression. This method does not work well disconnected where other methods are more hands and arms dominant. Ballard said when Curtis left him he started trying to do it with is “hands” and never won again. Sutton to this day said he doesnt want to feel his hands in the swing. That sounds crazy to folks like Malaska and Flick followers. The elite group that stick with Ballard fundamentals are those that springing the shaft is premier vs some kind of shaft lean compression fad.  IMO

 

I kind of understand where these guys are coming from. Without being a real Ballard student I can say that I copy Rocco's swing as best I can, albeit with a little more hand action like Hagen, who has a similar finish as Rocco's (not the same). I have a very bad problem with hooking and I like the fact that the release feels more shoulders and arms than hands, but my hands do release more than Rocco apparently would recommend, but they are constrained more than in the other method.

 

Interestingly I decided to make this swing work because of my back and left knee that can't handle dropping my right shoulder and hip slide, but it turns out this swing has significantly controlled my tendency to hook.

[Ayersjj]

1 hour ago, chipa said:

 

I kind of understand where these guys are coming from. Without being a real Ballard student I can say that I copy Rocco's swing as best I can, albeit with a little more hand action like Hagen, who has a similar finish as Rocco's (not the same). I have a very bad problem with hooking and I like the fact that the release feels more shoulders and arms than hands, but my hands do release more than Rocco apparently would recommend, but they are constrained more than in the other method.

 

Interestingly I decided to make this swing work because of my back and left knee that can't handle dropping my right shoulder and hip slide, but it turns out this swing has significantly controlled my tendency to hook.

Rocco on the golf channel vids are all really good w Jimmy B present. He seems to struggle with taking the club inside like Sandy Lyle use to do. But, these guys are so talented they made it work. My disappointment w Rocco is he was 100% Ballard and seemed to default to hands and arms like CStrange while going bak to Rick Smith. His back is feeling better obviously but his swing is not as dynamic as it was w Ballard by his side imo. He looks more narrow and armsy to me under Rick Smith. 

[chipa]

15 hours ago, Ayersjj said:

Rocco on the golf channel vids are all really good w Jimmy B present. He seems to struggle with taking the club inside like Sandy Lyle use to do. But, these guys are so talented they made it work. My disappointment w Rocco is he was 100% Ballard and seemed to default to hands and arms like CStrange while going bak to Rick Smith. His back is feeling better obviously but his swing is not as dynamic as it was w Ballard by his side imo. He looks more narrow and armsy to me under Rick Smith. 

 

Do you have any links to videos?

 

Interestingly, I feel like Hagen's swing is similar to Rocco's but with more hand action. In fact I couldn't make Rocco's swing work by keeping my hands passive like Rocco and Ballard recommend until I looked at a bunch of Hagen's videos. He bends over more than Rocco but has a similar tall finish w/o really dropping his right side. I feel like the upper shoulders turning through the ball with less hand release is the real difference between this method and the more common method and hence the head spins late due to the shoulders turning. I don't drop my shoulder near as much with this method (nor slide my hips) plus my hand movement seems to be more constrained and subordinate to what the upper arms and shoulders are doing, which is good for my issue with hooking.

[Ayersjj]

2 hours ago, chipa said:

 

Do you have any links to videos?

 

Interestingly, I feel like Hagen's swing is similar to Rocco's but with more hand action. In fact I couldn't make Rocco's swing work by keeping my hands passive like Rocco and Ballard recommend until I looked at a bunch of Hagen's videos. He bends over more than Rocco but has a similar tall finish w/o really dropping his right side. I feel like the upper shoulders turning through the ball with less hand release is the real difference between this method and the more common method and hence the head spins late due to the shoulders turning. I don't drop my shoulder near as much with this method (nor slide my hips) plus my hand movement seems to be more constrained and subordinate to what the upper arms and shoulders are doing, which is good for my issue with hooking.

JC Snead played a cut shot w Ballard method keeping the right side high and was a long hitter. 

 

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=E522rf3FmR8

Edited March 14, 2022 by Ayersjj

[Chazb]

On 9/7/2021 at 2:14 PM, Soloman1 said:

This is all great, but inquiring minds want to know if anyone in the world can provide any physical evidence, in film or video, of Jimmy Ballard swinging a golf club.

 

I'm OK if he has never been able to illustrate any of his teaching. I just want to know why he wears golf shoes and a glove sometimes.

years ago i was on this golf website and this golf writer said he offered Jimmy Ballard $10,000 if he could break 80 on a championship golf course.

He said Jimmy did not take him up on it.

[Ayersjj]

1 hour ago, Chazb said:

years ago i was on this golf website and this golf writer said he offered Jimmy Ballard $10,000 if he could break 80 on a championship golf course.

He said Jimmy did not take him up on it.

Maybe you should focus on your game and let multiple Major winners under Ballards tutelage speak for themselves about his abilities. Leadbetter use to shank the ball when called to show his student what hes talking about. Nick Price valued his tutelage. Good luck

[torbill]

I wonder if the same writer made the same offer to Leadbetter, Harmon and others, and if so, did they accept?

 

Chipa, the sooner you stop focusing on hands and put more focus on large muscles the sooner you will stop hooking the ball, or I miss my guess.

 

Walter Hagen evolved his swing in the era of hickory shafts.  His career was in the twilight when steel shafts began to take over.

 

 

 

[chipa]

1 hour ago, torbill said:

 

Chipa, the sooner you stop focusing on hands and put more focus on large muscles the sooner you will stop hooking the ball, or I miss my guess.

 

Walter Hagen evolved his swing in the era of hickory shafts.  His career was in the twilight when steel shafts began to take over.

 

 

 

 

The Rocco swing is helping me control my hook, as I mentioned the hands feel subordinate to what the upper arms and shoulders are doing through impact. They still need to release and that is what I learned from Hagen, who didn't drop his right side significantly. In fact as it is now I am hitting a high block more than anything. I am going to a back up of set of irons 962's that have a little more offset.

[Boise59]

So a lot of people want to diss Jimmy in many ways but let’s look at some facts….

 

1. He taught over 300 tour players and many were very successful (Strange, Sutton, Seve, Lyle, Jesper, Rocco, Colbert, Player, Jacobsen, Hubert Green, Dent, Durant,)

2. George Knudson, considered to be one of the greatest ball strikers of all time, worked with Ballard.

3. Ballard’s concepts come from the most successful cross over from a major league sport to the PGA Tour-Sam Byrd.

4.He brought Rocco back from being almost off the tour to taking the GOAT to 91 holes in the US Open.

5. Look at the swings of his most successful players -Sutton, Curtis, Jesper and Lyle…..do any of them look alike when they swing?

6. You can hit it long using the Ballard method (Jim Dent, DeWitt Weaver and Jesper).

7. You can hit it accurately using the Ballard method (Joe Durant, Colbert, Rocco, Sutton.

8.  A lot of Ballard concepts (right arm over left, triangle in center to waist high, let the head move etc) are used by the #1 teacher in golf, Butch Harmon.

9. Among the top teachers that think Jimmy was on track….Butch and Craig Harmon, Jim McLean, Randy Smith). David Leadbetter may have been too, he used many of Ballard’s concepts in his first book 10 years after Ballard wrote his.

 

if you listen to Sutton’s podcasts he is very bitter towards Jimmy and has a lot negative to say about him. My question is this …how many of you would give a kidney to hit it like Hal Sutton ? 

When Sutton went to see Harvey Penick , Harvey told Hal that he couldn’t improve on what Ballard had done with his swing.

 

In the 30 years that I have been around Jimmy I’ve only seen him hit wedges, I’m not sure if he even plays (common for anyone who teaches a lot) I can attest he’s improved my game and those that I have taught since 1988.