distance debate

[ChipStrokes]

1 minute ago, smashdn said:

Some people watch NFL and love a good defensive slog where the offenses are thwarted and each score precious.  Some want to see offenses zipping down the field and the end score be 48 - 45.  Neither person is wrong.

 

^That might be the argument from someone who is looking at it solely from an entertainment and PGA Tour standpoint.  And that is fine.

 

I personally look at it more holistically.  When the ball goes farther it makes the game take longer to play, not less as one would intuitively think.  When the ball goes farther courses add distance to recreate the playing conditions pre-added distance (rightly or wrongly it happens).  Anytime you add more mown and manicured turf you add inputs to manage that turf, whether it is mowing, fertilizers, chemicals, water, etc.  That adds cost which is passed on to the consumer.  Not only that but it also sort of paints golfers and golf courses in a bad light.  A non-golfer then gets to looking at this golf course they either have to pay to access or if it is private can't access and gets to thinking about all the water they use, the chemicals they put down, etc.  This might be happening in an area with water restrictions or municipalities with regulations on what homeowners can use on their own lawns.  From a pure sustainability standpoint adding length to combat distance will not be well received.

i follow you on this. 

 

i love a good pitchers duel. some people are bored to death. 

 

i understand the fact that longer courses require more care and resources, but is the local club making their course longer? i play a lot of golf and don’t see many people out there overpowering a 6500 yard course. what i see more often is the guy playing the blue tees with me who should be up on the whites instead. 

[Titleist99]

15 minutes ago, ChipStrokes said:

yes, and i’ve read most of it. 

 

what i’m getting at is that some want to make the driver smaller, some want to make the ball spin more, some want to see old courses stay relevant, some want longer clubs on approach, and some want scores closer to par. so, which is it?

I think jealousy is ruling the brain of some posters as well....can't leave that out.

[milesgiles]

16 minutes ago, ChipStrokes said:

i follow you on this. 

 

i love a good pitchers duel. some people are bored to death. 

 

i understand the fact that longer courses require more care and resources, but is the local club making their course longer? i play a lot of golf and don’t see many people out there overpowering a 6500 yard course. what i see more often is the guy playing the blue tees with me who should be up on the whites instead. 

 

You aren’t playing with many kids then, every club around me has a dozen who aren’t remotely contained by 6500 yards 

[Titleist99]

I personally don't know of one single golf course that's lengthening because their members hit the golf ball too far...

Most golf course water with recycled water......or have dormant grass that require very little water.....

The PGATOUR average tournament courses are approx. 7200 yards.....

The game takes longer when you hit more shots and if you lengthen the golf course guess what.....you hit more shots.

As fare as the NFL analyst goes ......they went with offense because it sells tickets and the modern game sells television rights.

Lastly.....I've never met not one golfer that have said "I hit the ball too far"

[ChipStrokes]

11 minutes ago, milesgiles said:

 

You aren’t playing with many kids then, every club around me has a dozen who aren’t remotely contained by 6500 yards 

are they making the courses longer for them?

[klebs01]

2 hours ago, ChipStrokes said:

are they making the courses longer for them?

yes. Every course I’ve been a member at and even my old muni I grew up on has added yardage. Courses are generally landlocked at this point. It’s a real issue. 

[Chunkitgood]

There seems to be a somewhat irrational demand for all courses to be lengthened possibly be used people with delusions of playing like the pros as well as the young guys who sort of do.

 

Architects spent time and effort designing holes to be played in a certain way,  with options for players of different skill levels.  The long ball ignores those design intentions, takes out the risk elements as designed, and substituting different ones based on chance, and when every drive is 340 yards will make the tv show called the Tour rather boring.  
 

In baseball they have enough sense to change things up so that you still have a duel between batter and pitcher.

[munichop]

As it stands now I prefer to watch the tournaments where wind is a factor because it puts into better balance the skill sets needed to play golf well. Last years PGA and most years open championships reveal that length alone is not enough. But those events are the exception which is. Why I prefer to watch the women now. They play a game with which I am more familiar…

[milesgiles]

7 hours ago, ChipStrokes said:

are they making the courses longer for them?

 

If they have the resources and space  yes of course they have had to.  Those that can’t inevitably lose their junior players to those that can 

[milesgiles]

4 hours ago, klebs01 said:

yes. Every course I’ve been a member at and even my old muni I grew up on has added yardage. Courses are generally landlocked at this point. It’s a real issue. 

 

I don’t think chipstrokes gets out much 

[milesgiles]

7 hours ago, Titleist99 said:

I personally don't know of one single golf course that's lengthening because their members hit the golf ball too far...

Most golf course water with recycled water......or have dormant grass that require very little water.....

The PGATOUR average tournament courses are approx. 7200 yards.....

The game takes longer when you hit more shots and if you lengthen the golf course guess what.....you hit more shots.

As fare as the NFL analyst goes ......they went with offense because it sells tickets and the modern game sells television rights.

Lastly.....I've never met not one golfer that have said "I hit the ball too far"

 Where are you that they haven’t lengthened any courses? There’s several around me near London, where it’s especially hard to do, but they’ve had to do it 

[milesgiles]

8 hours ago, smashdn said:

 

Seek first to understand man.  How can we have constructive dialogue or understand another's viewpoint if you won't even entertain the evidence he has put before you because of your preconceived notions of what the USGA is?

 

At any rate, those grouchy, old white dudes, in the USGA and across the pond at the R&A are the groups that make the rules.  Like who they are or not they have sway.

 

If you want to know why it is a problem despite the PGA Tour being more popular than ever you should read the report.  If not it, read what others who work in the industry and must work to support the changes that increased distances have brought with it must do.

 

His feelings are more important than facts backed by evidence 

[ChipStrokes]

3 hours ago, milesgiles said:

 

His feelings are more important than facts backed by evidence 

the same can be said on both sides of this argument. 

 

data has been presented to you showing there isn’t the problem you seem to think there is and you’ve managed to whine your way right through it. 

 

this is an overall fruitless endeavor. 

[clevited]

4 hours ago, milesgiles said:

 

His feelings are more important than facts backed by evidence 

 

This statement is poor form imo.  One of the most hypocritical things I have seen posted.  You know better than that miles.

[clevited]

4 hours ago, milesgiles said:

 Where are you that they haven’t lengthened any courses? There’s several around me near London, where it’s especially hard to do, but they’ve had to do it 

 

Why?

[klebs01]

27 minutes ago, clevited said:

 

Why?

to retain and attract members. Maintain relevance or fail. 

[milesgiles]

31 minutes ago, clevited said:

 

Why?

 

they hold major amateur competitions, play high division scratch games and need to attract good players etc etc. 

 

Its not the majority of courses but its a signficant number, and the new ones that have opened certainly arent opening at moderate total yardages

[milesgiles]

37 minutes ago, clevited said:

 

This statement is poor form imo.  One of the most hypocritical things I have seen posted.  You know better than that miles.

 

he stated that it was a 'perceived' issue, which is ridiculous. Its an actual issue, but we can certainly debate how many people are affected and how far we should go in fixing it.

 

Just sticking your head in the sand and ignoring it is poor form

[ChipStrokes]

7 minutes ago, milesgiles said:

he stated that it was a 'perceived' issue, which is ridiculous.

it’s not ridiculous. driving leaders on tour max out at around 315-320 every year, despite all the guys at the top being capable of much much longer drives. 

 

if it was advantageous for cam champ or luke list or rory to average 340 off the tee, they would. but they don’t.

 

that tells me that the “distance problem” has pretty much peaked.  

 

week in and week out, guys from much further down the list win tournaments.  where’s the problem?

 

Edited April 19, 2022 by ChipStrokes

[klebs01]

20 minutes ago, ChipStrokes said:

it’s not ridiculous. driving leaders on tour max out at around 315-320 every year, despite all the guys at the top being capable of much much longer drives. 

 

if it was advantageous for cam champ or luke list or rory to average 340 off the tee, they would. but they don’t.

 

that tells me that the “distance problem” has pretty much peaked.  

 

week in and week out, guys from much further down the list win tournaments.  where’s the problem?

 

This isn’t as much an issue on the PGA tour. They can go to all long courses. This is more of an issue for courses that are land locked and were designed when a good drive was 230 and they tipped out at 6400y. The thousands of courses in this category are the ones that are obsolete and need to add yardage but most can’t due to property lines. 

[smashdn]

12 hours ago, ChipStrokes said:

i follow you on this. 

 

i love a good pitchers duel. some people are bored to death. 

 

i understand the fact that longer courses require more care and resources, but is the local club making their course longer? i play a lot of golf and don’t see many people out there overpowering a 6500 yard course. what i see more often is the guy playing the blue tees with me who should be up on the whites instead. 

 

Yes.  I don't know if I live in a special area or not but there are scads of guys around here that overpower courses.  I have relayed numerous times here before of the HIO on a 315 yard par 4 with a 3W in a competition.  That courses has stretched and added tee boxes as far back as they can.  It is a landlocked course in a neighborhood and abutting a federal highway.  The par four and five boxes are back nearly as far as they can get them and it is a 6300 yards par 71.  For comps they have added black tees that are just a set of tee markers set two club lengths off the very back.  Guys were teeing it up back there anyway when we played.

 

Other public course bought ground and moved the green back on a par five hole to add length.  Moving that green also allowed them to lengthen a par 4 from 160 to 240 at the very back.  On the front they also added length on another par three to get it to 220.  Everything else is hemmed in by roads or other holes.

[milesgiles]

13 hours ago, Titleist99 said:

That distance report says that the game is fine and that the pros don't hit the golf ball as far as most think they do.

 

It goes on to say that they're concern but choose not to do anything at this time because they already have measures in place.......Now there, no need to read that nonsense because I summed it up.....

 

 

where does it say anything like that? What bit are you quoting? Thats not what yhe distance insight report states at all

[ChipStrokes]

8 minutes ago, klebs01 said:

This isn’t as much an issue on the PGA tour. They can go to all long courses. This is more of an issue for courses that are land locked and were designed when a good drive was 230 and they tipped out at 6400y. The thousands of courses in this category are the ones that are obsolete and need to add yardage but most can’t due to property lines. 

i see this as being a completely unresolvable situation. 

 

if you’re talking about public and CC courses that are played by guys like you and me, i don’t think anything decreed by the ruling bodies makes a beans of difference, unless the change is “ok let’s stop it all right here, enough is enough”. and if they go that route, the OEMs are gonna raise hell bigtime.  

 

how many weekend golfers (the overwhelming majority of who plays) even know there was a rule passed about grooves?  do you think they’ll care if the USGA makes their Sim driver “nonconforming”? 

[smashdn]

2 hours ago, ChipStrokes said:

the same can be said on both sides of this argument. 

 

data has been presented to you showing there isn’t the problem you seem to think there is and you’ve managed to whine your way right through it. 

 

this is an overall fruitless endeavor. 

 

What data is there that doesn't show driving distance has increased significantly in the last ~30 years?  What data exists that shows courses have not added length to adapt to or combat the added distance the golf ball is being hit?

[ChipStrokes]

1 minute ago, smashdn said:

 

What data is there that doesn't show driving distance has increased significantly in the last ~30 years?  What data exists that shows courses have not added length to adapt to or combat the added distance the golf ball is being hit?

a few guys in here (not me personally) have cited several sources showing a plateau in the length of the driving leaders on tour and also that courses have lengthened, on average, something like 50 yards in the last couple of decades. 

 

both of these statements have been brushed off and dismissed by people who feel there’s a huge issue at hand. 

 

thats recall without looking back through the thread. don’t take it as gospel. 

[Golferpaul]

On 2/21/2022 at 12:36 PM, 596 said:

Don't change equipment. Narrower slower fairways, slower greens, unraked bunkers, longer rough.  That's all you need to stop the bomb and gouge.  

 

490 yard par 4 this past weekend was driver/pitching wedge.  That's stupid.  The tee shots were rolling 50 yards in the fairways.  That's nothing like courses people play every day.  Say it all you want, but we do not play the same game or courses the pros do.

Exactly!  Let the fairways grow to the same height as they were 30 years ago and we would see average drives drop by 20 yards.  Hard, dry fairways mowed to green height is contributing as much to distance as the golf ball.

Edited April 19, 2022 by Golferpaul
added graph

[smashdn]

2 minutes ago, ChipStrokes said:

i see this as being a completely unresolvable situation. 

 

if you’re talking about public and CC courses that are played by guys like you and me, i don’t think anything decreed by the ruling bodies makes a beans of difference, unless the change is “ok let’s stop it all right here, enough is enough”. and if they go that route, the OEMs are gonna raise hell bigtime.  

 

how many weekend golfers (the overwhelming majority of who plays) even know there was a rule passed about grooves?  do you think they’ll care if the USGA makes their Sim driver “nonconforming”? 

 

No, you are conflating a different argument.  If I sum up the above it amounts to "the equipment manufacturers will get mad and people will ignore it anyway so they shouldn't do it."

 

If your argument is "this won't effect the weekend golfer," then why bother to fight equipment changes?  If you play in comps you know about the groove rule.

 

The clubs I use for just playing and enjoyment are non-conforming by virtue of being too old to have been tested and certified as conforming.  Makes no matter to me.  When I play competitions the modern stuff comes out anyway and it is all conforming.

[smashdn]

2 minutes ago, ChipStrokes said:

a few guys in here (not me personally) have cited several sources showing a plateau in the length of the driving leaders on tour and also that courses have lengthened, on average, something like 50 yards in the last couple of decades. 

 

both of these statements have been brushed off and dismissed by people who feel there’s a huge issue at hand. 

 

thats recall without looking back through the thread. don’t take it as gospel. 

 

A plateau in the data is not the same as no significant distance gain.  I can agree that the distance gains have had several periods in the last 30 years where the increases were not as pronounced.  Just as there are step changes were there were quite steep increases.  Neither of these means that the average gain over that time period is not significant.

 

If I can't take it as gospel I can't help but dispel it to an extent.  

[ChipStrokes]

1 minute ago, smashdn said:

No, you are conflating a different argument.  If I sum up the above it amounts to "the equipment manufacturers will get mad and people will ignore it anyway so they shouldn't do it."

equipment rules will kill the golf industry in their efforts to “preserve the integrity of the game”

 

if you freeze things where they are, pros are tapped out distance wise. they’ll continue to try and eek out a yard or two via strength training, perfecting launch conditions, etc, but they’ll pretty much stagnate. 

 

but your average golfer, your consumer, wants to buy a new driver every year to “gain 15 yards”.  those guys will likely stop playing if equipment is rolled back or there’s no more magic bullet to buy. 

[ChipStrokes]

1 minute ago, smashdn said:

If I can't take it as gospel I can't help but dispel it to an extent.  

that’s fine, i was just trying to say the data has been presented, just not by me, so i don’t have the exact figures at hand. 

 

i believe @amace04 was the one posting about it. maybe he’ll chime in.