distance debate

[clevited]

6 hours ago, So_Cal said:

I respectfully disagree with this.  Give these guys persimmon and balata and the true ball strikers would rise to the top.  Nowadays it’s very easy to hit a 460 cc driver.  

 

This has been discussed at length and I strongly disagree with you.  How hard is it to hit a fairway wood, hybrid or 3i off the tee?  While I don't think it is 99.9% of the time they find middle, I don't think pro's need to steer the club face and worry about missing center by much unlike most AM golfers.  Yes, they have a bad strike once and a while, they are human and maybe that bad strike will give you a couple more shorter/more wayward shots off the tee with a smaller clubhead, but don't kid yourselves.  These guys almost all have such repeatable swings that they just swing and the ball gets in the way.  They can trust that the path they swing will be very close to square and aligned with the ball even at full speed.  

 

I think the roll back guys give way too little credit to the pro's of today, while the leave the game alone guys perhaps give them too much credit.  The truth I think leans more towards the leave the game alone crowd as I think the roll backers tend to exaggerate to a much larger degree how "easy" it is to hit a modern driver and they tend to completely overlook the average pro's abilities with all of the smaller headed clubs in the bag.

Edited April 26, 2022 by clevited

[Golferpaul]

7 hours ago, So_Cal said:

I respectfully disagree with this.  Give these guys persimmon and balata and the true ball strikers would rise to the top.  Nowadays it’s very easy to hit a 460 cc driver.  

But now you have introduced two new criteria.  I thought the debate was about the 190CC Big Bertha.

 

Persimmon and Balata would very much change the game of golf.

[ChipStrokes]

18 hours ago, So_Cal said:

The original oversized driver - the Big Bertha was 190 cc.  Not a bad size to return skill to the game for the pros. 

modern 3 woods are around 175cc. 

 

pros hit them 300+ off the tee. 

 

what would this solve?

[gvogel]

5 minutes ago, ChipStrokes said:

modern 3 woods are around 175cc. 

 

pros hit them 300+ off the tee. 

 

what would this solve?

They certainly don't hit their 3-woods as far as their drivers, so it would be a step in the right direction.

 

With a small headed driver, it is more difficult to tee the ball high and hit it on the upswing.  Sure, modern pros are gifted ball strikers, but with smaller headed drivers there is an element of risk. 

[ChipStrokes]

7 minutes ago, gvogel said:

They certainly don't hit their 3-woods as far as their drivers, so it would be a step in the right direction.

 

With a small headed driver, it is more difficult to tee the ball high and hit it on the upswing.  Sure, modern pros are gifted ball strikers, but with smaller headed drivers there is an element of risk. 

is there a magic number you’re trying to get to?

 

because “they hit it too far” is really a non starter of an argument. 

Edited April 26, 2022 by ChipStrokes

[gvogel]

On 4/21/2022 at 6:18 PM, milesgiles said:

 

cant argue with modernists with no soul 

Yes, it is near impossible to discuss golf course length and design with those who would look at GolfClubAtlas with disdain.

Interestingly, there are more than a few pros who enjoy older courses and great design.

 

Clevited and Titleist say lowest score wins, to heck with course length or shot values.  But doing so takes a lot of the value out of learning to play shots, learning to play from unpredictable lies, and learning to set up a second shot by hitting to the proper side of the fairway (which effectively reduces the width of the fairway).

 

There is a reason that a lot of golfers get excited about playing a new course, and maybe even a course that has a lot of history.  But I suppose the soul-less golfer doesn't care about that.  Too bad.

[gvogel]

3 minutes ago, ChipStrokes said:

is there a magic number you’re trying to get to?

 

because “they hit it too far” is really a non starter of an argument. 

That is where we disagree.  See my comment above about soul-less golfers.

[ChipStrokes]

1 minute ago, gvogel said:

That is where we disagree.  See my comment above about soul-less golfers.

because someone doesn’t care about the history of a centuries old course, they’re soulless?  

 

that’s some high-horsed logic, don’t you think?

 

yankee stadium was baseball’s cathedral for 85 years. but it was torn down when it didn’t suit modern baseball anymore. 

 

same goes for ebbets field, the polo grounds, comiskey park, etc etc etc. 

 

if a course has been rendered obsolete, that’s

the course’s problem, not the sport’s problem. 

 

but, that’s not the whole picture. the courses aren’t obsolete for golf. they’re obsolete for golf tournaments. there’s a big difference there. 

[Titleist99]

3 hours ago, clevited said:

 

This has been discussed at length and I strongly disagree with you.  How hard is it to hit a fairway wood, hybrid or 3i off the tee?  While I don't think it is 99.9% of the time they find middle, I don't think pro's need to steer the club face and worry about missing center by much unlike most AM golfers.  Yes, they have a bad strike once and a while, they are human and maybe that bad strike will give you a couple more shorter/more wayward shots off the tee with a smaller clubhead, but don't kid yourselves.  These guys almost all have such repeatable swings that they just swing and the ball gets in the way.  They can trust that the path they swing will be very close to square and aligned with the ball even at full speed.  

 

I think the roll back guys give way too little credit to the pro's of today, while the leave the game alone guys perhaps give them too much credit.  The truth I think leans more towards the leave the game alone crowd as I think the roll backers tend to exaggerate to a much larger degree how "easy" it is to hit a modern driver and they tend to completely overlook the average pro's abilities with all of the smaller headed clubs in the bag.

"the roll backers tend to exaggerate to a much larger degree how "easy" it is to hit a modern driver and they tend to completely overlook the average pro's abilities with all of the smaller headed clubs in the bag."

 

The example you cite is a perfect observation that destroy the ones that want to reduce the driver head size. Tour players hit smaller head clubs as straight as you can point.......IMO

Edited 3 hours ago by clevited

[Titleist99]

1 hour ago, ChipStrokes said:

because someone doesn’t care about the history of a centuries old course, they’re soulless?  

 

that’s some high-horsed logic, don’t you think?

 

yankee stadium was baseball’s cathedral for 85 years. but it was torn down when it didn’t suit modern baseball anymore. 

 

same goes for ebbets field, the polo grounds, comiskey park, etc etc etc. 

 

if a course has been rendered obsolete, that’s

the course’s problem, not the sport’s problem. 

 

but, that’s not the whole picture. the courses aren’t obsolete for golf. they’re obsolete for golf tournaments. there’s a big difference there. 

Tournament Golf and Television Golf......That's why the PGATOUR is playing TPC courses, it maximize profit and a better viewing experience for fans with "Stadium golf".......IMO

Edited April 26, 2022 by Titleist99

[milesgiles]

5 hours ago, ChipStrokes said:

modern 3 woods are around 175cc. 

 

pros hit them 300+ off the tee. 

 

what would this solve?

 

average CARRY  on tour with a 3 wood is 243, so this is trolling 

[milesgiles]

5 hours ago, ChipStrokes said:

 

if a course has been rendered obsolete, that’s

the course’s problem, not the sport’s problem. 

 

 

if they build a freeway through your grandma's backyard, thats her problem yeah?

[ChipStrokes]

2 minutes ago, milesgiles said:

 

if they build a freeway through your grandma's backyard, thats her problem yeah?

yes, it 100% is. it certainly isn’t yours. who else’s problem could it be?

[milesgiles]

3 hours ago, Titleist99 said:

"the roll backers tend to exaggerate to a much larger degree how "easy" it is to hit a modern driver and they tend to completely overlook the average pro's abilities with all of the smaller headed clubs in the bag."

 

The example you cite is a perfect observation that destroy the ones that want to reduce the driver head size. Tour players hit smaller head clubs as straight as you can point.......IMO

Edited 3 hours ago by clevited

 

 

Cant get my head around how you can claim head size makes no difference to a pro.. and insist that they just carry on using 460s.. Why? If it makes no difference? 

[smashdn]

5 hours ago, ChipStrokes said:

if a course has been rendered obsolete, that’s

the course’s problem, not the sport’s problem. 

 

And we all bear that problem.

 

5 hours ago, ChipStrokes said:

but, that’s not the whole picture. the courses aren’t obsolete for golf. they’re obsolete for golf tournaments. there’s a big difference there. 

 

I think we tend to underestimate how many courses this really is.  I brought up in the other thread, how many courses hold state open qualifiers, college tournaments, sectionals, etc.  A local municipal course held the monday qualifier for a KFT event.  From tees so far back that they don't exist on the card the course record was shot.

 

So now that they are obsolete for tournament golf what do the courses do?  They either cease to hold those tournaments or add length in an attempt to remain viable for the events that they want to hold.  Adding distance to courses has always been one of the chief reasons I bring up as why we need to make every effort to reel distance back in (and as a consultation, just hold it where we are today).

 

More mown area is more cost, more inputs in the form of fertilizer, water, pest control etc., and often creates longer distances from green-to-tee to traverse making the length a round takes to play longer as well.  Aside from keeping courses viable for challenging elite golfers, adding distance really has no good points on its side.

[smashdn]

3 hours ago, Titleist99 said:

Tournament Golf and Television Golf......That's why the PGATOUR is playing TPC courses, it maximize profit and a better viewing experience for fans with "Stadium golf".......IMO

 

You and I don't tend to agree on much in this discussions but I do respect that you acknowledge that the PGA Tour is doing its own thing for its own reasons.

 

Where I tend to disagree with you is there are times that you come off as though this is only a PGAT problem.

[milesgiles]

21 minutes ago, ChipStrokes said:

yes, it 100% is. it certainly isn’t yours. who else’s problem could it be?

 

Id say its the problem of anyone owning a house where they want to build the next freeway 

[ChipStrokes]

14 minutes ago, smashdn said:

I think we tend to underestimate how many courses this really is.  I brought up in the other thread, how many courses hold state open qualifiers, college tournaments, sectionals, etc.  A local municipal course held the monday qualifier for a KFT event.  From tees so far back that they don't exist on the card the course record was shot.

 

So now that they are obsolete for tournament golf what do the courses do?  They either cease to hold those tournaments or add length in an attempt to remain viable for the events that they want to hold.  Adding distance to courses has always been one of the chief reasons I bring up as why we need to make every effort to reel distance back in (and as a consultation, just hold it where we are today).

you missed my point. it wasn’t about length, and my bad for not making that clear. 

 

certain older tour venues are obsolete for professional tournaments because they can’t accommodate media, crowds, tv towers, parking, and all the other infrastructure that comes along with a tour event. 

 

its not a matter of length to stay relevant.  it’s a matter of space to accommodate the modern requirements of a tour event. 

Edited April 26, 2022 by ChipStrokes

[ChipStrokes]

5 minutes ago, milesgiles said:

 

Id say its the problem of anyone owning a house where they want to build the next freeway 

not following, but i don’t think you actually have a point, as usual. 

[Titleist99]

13 minutes ago, smashdn said:

 

You and I don't tend to agree on much in this discussions but I do respect that you acknowledge that the PGA Tour is doing its own thing for its own reasons.

 

Where I tend to disagree with you is there are times that you come off as though this is only a PGAT problem.

You're correct, The PGATOUR is what I refer to as television Golf. IMO they want low scores and they embrace distance as a commodity......

 

I don't think that distance is a problem anywhere....too much is made of the pros hitting 320 yard drive every time (which they don't) .....and no one is buying land to lengthen golf courses except ANGC, because they love buying land. But that's just my opinion.

 

I look forward to someone convincing me that I'm wrong on this debate......It just hasn't happened yet.......LOL!

Edited April 26, 2022 by Titleist99

[clevited]

6 hours ago, gvogel said:

They certainly don't hit their 3-woods as far as their drivers, so it would be a step in the right direction.

 

With a small headed driver, it is more difficult to tee the ball high and hit it on the upswing.  Sure, modern pros are gifted ball strikers, but with smaller headed drivers there is an element of risk. 

 

I beg to differ.  Don't make me post more screen shots from my GC3 🤣

[ChipStrokes]

1 minute ago, clevited said:

 

I beg to differ.  Don't make me post more screen shots from my GC3 🤣

evidence has no place here!

[Titleist99]

37 minutes ago, milesgiles said:

 

 

Cant get my head around how you can claim head size makes no difference to a pro.. and insist that they just carry on using 460s.. Why? If it makes no difference? 

Because today drivers have more technology in them that I'm sure the manufacturers can transfer into a smaller head if the wanted to.

 

Most of today's Pros grew up with the larger size driver heads.... now you are suggesting that they suddenly reduce the size.....2004 was the introduction to the 460cc driver. My goodness, that was eighteen years ago......these modern tour players are 22 and 24 yo.

[clevited]

5 minutes ago, ChipStrokes said:

evidence has no place here!

 

Funny thing is, don't have to tee it up very high to still hit up on it 10+ degrees.  No different than what is typically taught for driver.  Half hemisphere of ball above the crown.  

[milesgiles]

6 minutes ago, clevited said:

 

Funny thing is, don't have to tee it up very high to still hit up on it 10+ degrees.  No different than what is typically taught for driver.  Half hemisphere of ball above the crown.  

 

great, so it makes no difference. Get rid of the 460 then its pointless

[milesgiles]

33 minutes ago, ChipStrokes said:

not following, but i don’t think you actually have a point, as usual. 

 

they dont use sunningdale for a tour event any more. That was Sunningdales problem. Then they stopped using St Mellion. Then Fulford. And a dozen more I can think of. Got it?

[milesgiles]

19 minutes ago, Titleist99 said:

Because today drivers have more technology in them that I'm sure the manufacturers can transfer into a smaller head if the wanted to.

 

 

what does this even mean

[ChipStrokes]

Just now, milesgiles said:

 

they dont use sunningdale for a tour event any more. That was Sunningdales problem. Then they stopped using St Mellion. Then Fulford. And a dozen more I can think of. Got it?

yeah, i understand losing a tour event was a problem for the clubs you named and the dozen more you can think of.

 

the problem lies with the club. 

 

if the club can’t accommodate a tour event, that isn’t the tour’s problem and the tour shouldn’t change to keep an obsolete old club relevant. 

 

the club should change, if they can. 

[Titleist99]

Let me be clear......I think that no matter what the rollbackers suggest, the touring pros will adapt, and we'll be right back here in the very near future just like the groove over reaction......

 

USGA apparently don't think that distance is a problem by supporting many US OPEN's at the shortest course on the PGATOUR.

[Titleist99]

8 minutes ago, milesgiles said:

 

great, so it makes no difference. Get rid of the 460 then its pointless

Because it's not the smartest thing to......changing thing that makes no difference just for the sake of change or just to satisfy a few peoples nostalgia.........