Posting a Score For Another Player

[larrybud]

On 9/30/2022 at 3:06 AM, Mr. Bean said:

Besides, I was only taking stand to Larrybud's claim that he has no committee. Whether his committee performs reviews or not is another matter. And maybe it does perform them, he just don't know it. At my club the committee performs reviews but I do not get any info on that unless there is something funny going on.

 

THERE IS NO COMMITTEE.

Why is that so hard for you to believe? Go ahead, call the course, Pine Trace Golf Course in Rochester Michigan. Ask them who is head of their handicap committee. https://www.pinetrace.com/

 

I would suspect their response is "the who for the what now?"

 

Then call the GHIN and ask them how many scores they peer review. Their answer will be "that responsibility falls on the club's handicap committee".

Here's "peer review" according to the Usga: https://www.usga.org/content/usga/home-page/handicapping/world-handicap-system/world-handicap-system-usga-golf-faqs/faqs---what-is-peer-review.html

 

"To facilitate the process of peer review, scores must be posted as soon as possible after completion of the round. Challenges and disputes should be raised with the player and/or reported to the Handicap Committee of the golf club where the player is a member for consideration. (Rule 4.4, Rules of Handicapping)"

[Newby]

I wonder why the USGA didn't include the following in their manual. It seems to be the norm everywhere else.

 

2.1a (iii) Registering Intent to Submit a Score in General Play.
A player is required to pre-register their intent to submit an acceptable score in general play for handicap purposes.
Such pre-registration must be made:

• l Before the player starts the round, and
• l According to the requirements or conditions established by the Handicap Committee and/or the Authorized Association.

 

The Handicap Committee may consider a player to have pre-registered their
intent to submit an acceptable score for handicap purposes when playing an
authorized format of play in a regular, organized event with other players.

[North Butte]

38 minutes ago, Newby said:

I wonder why the USGA didn't include the following in their manual. It seems to be the norm everywhere else.

 

2.1a (iii) Registering Intent to Submit a Score in General Play.
A player is required to pre-register their intent to submit an acceptable score in general play for handicap purposes.
Such pre-registration must be made:

• l Before the player starts the round, and
• l According to the requirements or conditions established by the Handicap Committee and/or the Authorized Association.

 

The Handicap Committee may consider a player to have pre-registered their
intent to submit an acceptable score for handicap purposes when playing an
authorized format of play in a regular, organized event with other players.

Because for 25 years they have been selling handicapping services to people who have no intention of "registering" anything, anywhere, ever. You guys not in USA seem to express continuing puzzlement year after year no matter how many times we explain to you that USGA handicapping welcomes everybody. Not just members of clubs, not just people who play in comps, literally anyone who wants to sign up and pay a yearly fee is welcome to type numbers into GHIN and have an "official USGA handicap".

 

If it's someone who belongs to a club and it's a club that can be bothered to provide a functioning Handicap Committee then they'll get some formal peer review. But for millions of USA golfers, they have a handicap in spite of having no affiliation with any club or group that's going to do all that stuff in the Handicap Manual. 

 

Surely at this point you can't NOT understand how different USGA handicapping is from the stuff you're used to. 

[DaveLeeNC]

1 hour ago, Newby said:

I wonder why the USGA didn't include the following in their manual. It seems to be the norm everywhere else.

 

2.1a (iii) Registering Intent to Submit a Score in General Play.
A player is required to pre-register their intent to submit an acceptable score in general play for handicap purposes.
Such pre-registration must be made:

• l Before the player starts the round, and
• l According to the requirements or conditions established by the Handicap Committee and/or the Authorized Association.

 

The Handicap Committee may consider a player to have pre-registered their
intent to submit an acceptable score for handicap purposes when playing an
authorized format of play in a regular, organized event with other players.

 

Here in the US that would just be a recipe for abuse. Many 'postable' rounds (possibly most?) are played at clubs where there is no active monitoring on any handicap thing pretty much ever. So there is no one to declare to. And if you formalize the concept of non-postable practice rounds 'declared to yourself', then you have removed a valuable enforcement tool for those US clubs that do have active handicap committees. When those committees match up the tee sheet with posted rounds, you give the sandbagger (or vanity handicapper) the ability to just claim 'practice round' for unposted rounds. At least now they have to explain something. 

 

dave

[Newby]

41 minutes ago, North Butte said:

Because for 25 years they have been selling handicapping services to people who have no intention of "registering" anything, anywhere, ever. You guys not in USA seem to express continuing puzzlement year after year no matter how many times we explain to you that USGA handicapping welcomes everybody.

Surely at this point you can't NOT understand how different USGA handicapping is from the stuff you're used to. 

I know and understand all that. But given that historical situation, why did the USGA lead in introducing a much more formal structure to the world if they knew that it would not affect a large proportion of the local population.

When a USA citizen comes to GB&I to play (and many thousands do) how can we expect them to be playing with a 'legitimate' handicap. A friend of mine regularly has an exchange with friends from Florida. I have been involved a few times. When over here he plays in our major roll-up. This year (after a 2 year Covid gap) we asked about his handicap as we always use the 'proper' PH. He responded by saying he always formally returns scores and added when chatting 'Don't trust anyone who isn't a proper club member'.

 

As it happens England Golf has introduced a scheme for non-club players. In effect they become individual members of the England Golf Club and may return any cards provided they are pre-registered and verified by another member of the EG club or any club affiliated to EG via individual access to the online system or competition entry.

 

Any member of a Club Handicap Committee can view all scores by any registered member and any club member may view scores of any member of their own club.

 

 

But then 'Each to his own' I suppose.

Edited October 3, 2022 by Newby

[North Butte]

8 minutes ago, Newby said:

I know and understand all that. But given that historical situation, why did the USGA lead in introducing a much more formal structure to the world if they knew that it would not affect a large proportion of the local population.

 

Honestly, it's because the USGA is a bunch of hypocritical blowhards who love to pontificate as long as it doesn't interfere with their bottom line. And part of their bottom line is getting as many people as possible to pay for a USGA handicap. 

 

There was a time when USGA handicaps were primarily held by members of private country clubs. That's about when I came into the game. They wanted to make it more inclusive, which I suppose is a worthy goal, but cynically achieved their subscriber growth by  cynically dumbing down the system where anyone can post any score they like, as easy as you like.

 

Now they can't put the genie back in the bottle. Anything pertaining to registration and/or attestation is going to send half their subscriber base packing because they want no part of any of that. I suppose it's possible they might somehow come up with a bifurcated system (USGA Competitive Handicap versus USGA Casual Handicap) that enable and enforces something akin to a Rest Of The World version of WHS for the "real" handicap but lets the solo artist and "track my progress" types feel like they are legitimized as well. Seems tricky to do, though. 

[Newby]

7 minutes ago, North Butte said:

Seems tricky to do, though. 

No doubting that 🤔

[mark m]

The “why?”

 

1. It’s not the money to the USGA. They don’t take much of the fee which goes to the handicap service. Only a buck or two per handicap, and that is spent on the apps and service. Most of the handicap fee goes to your state/regional golf associations. For instance, my state has 82,000 members (x approximately $20 each = $1,640,000). This funds much of the staff and operations. IMO, they do nice job. The USGA is supportive of the Associations, but the US Open is the money marker.
2. It would be tough to change the culture. But it’s needed. The large field net tournaments at many clubs are a joke. And open events are worse. I posted recently on our associations state net tournament- individual stableford, lowest index past 12 months, and 75% allowance on CH to determine your PH. Around 70 points for two rounds is typical of the winners the past few years. Sound legit?
3. The current set up works OK for our “elites.” The have the time and resources to monitor those in their circle for the events they care about. 
 

What elements make for a good score?

 

1. Individual stroke play/ stableford. So every shot counts.

2. Entry fee which goes to the prize pool. So all have “skin in the game.”

3. The course is set up and marked properly. Gimmicky set-ups hurt participation over time. (But we do have PCC just in case.)

4. Scores are kept by a marker and certified following play.

5. Scores are posted by the committee to ensure they are entered in time, and properly adjusted.

 

A player could still bag for an event they consider important, but it would come at a cost. It wouldn’t be perfect, just better. 
 

They do a pretty good job with rules of golf, but have made a mess with the handicap system. It’s inclusive, but not equitable for large field and/or open net score competitions.

 

 

Edited October 3, 2022 by mark m