MLR E-5 Out of Bounds

[Newby]

Is there a consensus on or has there been a ruling explaining exactly where the 'fairway reference point' is if the hole does not have a closely mown area in the general area? More particularly, where should the ball be dropped?

[Mr. Bean]

I believe that has been said in the MLR.

 

"May be a grass path or a teeing ground for the hole being played cut to fairway height or less."

 

  

56 minutes ago, Newby said:

 if the hole does not have a closely mown area in the general area?

 

Are you referring a par3 hole with only the green? Never seen a hole with no closely mown area in the general area.

 

 

Edited November 17, 2022 by Mr. Bean

[Newby]

36 minutes ago, Mr. Bean said:

I believe that has been said in the MLR.

"May be a grass path or a teeing ground for the hole being played cut to fairway height or less."

 

Are you referring a par3 hole with only the green? Never seen a hole with no closely mown area in the general area.

 

Thanks

1) I thought I had seen that somewhere but now I realise that the words For purposes of this Local Rule, “fairway” means any area of grass in the general area that is cut to fairway height or less in the LR itself cover it.

2) That is what I was picturing.

Edited November 17, 2022 by Newby

[nsxguy]

https://www.usga.org/content/usga/home-page/rules-hub/rules-modernization/major-changes/golfs-new-rules-stroke-and-distance.html

 

We've also had some extensive conversations on here about it. I'll see if I can find it.

 

[Augster]

Correct, it’s messed up when there isn’t much closely mown area. You get your point of entry to OB, and the other reference is the front of the front-most tee box in a lot of cases. 
 

Many times a player would be better off re-teeing. 

[Newby]

7 hours ago, nsxguy said:

https://www.usga.org/content/usga/home-page/rules-hub/rules-modernization/major-changes/golfs-new-rules-stroke-and-distance.html

 

We've also had some extensive conversations on here about it. I'll see if I can find it.

 

I have probably seen them all but not specifically about the 'no fairway' situation.

[Mr. Bean]

3 hours ago, Augster said:

Correct, it’s messed up when there isn’t much closely mown area. You get your point of entry to OB, and the other reference is the front of the front-most tee box in a lot of cases. 
 

Many times a player would be better off re-teeing. 

 

A provisional ball is never a bad idea 🤓

[Halebopp]

1 hour ago, Newby said:

I have probably seen them all but not specifically about the 'no fairway' situation.

 

In such a situation the relief option simply wouldn't be available, in my opinion. There's no fairway reference point to create a relief area, similar to an embedded ball when the reference point, nor any point within one club length of it isn't in the GA.

 

I guess usually teeing grounds are mowed to same height as fairways but sometimes mowing them might be skipped (especially in spring time to protect them), or the crew hasn't yet got to a particular hole that morning. Life's definitely a whole lot easier for everyone when the local rule is not in use. 🙂

[Colin L]

1 hour ago, Halebopp said:

 

In such a situation the relief option simply wouldn't be available, in my opinion. There's no fairway reference point to create a relief area, similar to an embedded ball when the reference point, nor any point within one club length of it isn't in the GA.

I know you will know, but for the benefit of others, the embedded ball rule will change in January when your reference point may be as far from where the ball lies as is necessary to find a spot in the general area, not nearer the hole.

[Mr. Bean]

2 hours ago, Halebopp said:

I guess usually teeing grounds are mowed to same height as fairways but sometimes mowing them might be skipped (especially in spring time to protect them), or the crew hasn't yet got to a particular hole that morning.

 

What is cut to fairway height or less is not that strict. Whether the crew has cut the area or not makes no difference if the idea is to have it cut to fairway height. Otherwise we would be in a situation where LC&P would not be applicable on holes the crew has not yet cut as grass is longer there than on holes that are already cut that particular day.

[Halebopp]

21 minutes ago, Mr. Bean said:

 

What is cut to fairway height or less is not that strict. Whether the crew has cut the area or not makes no difference if the idea is to have it cut to fairway height. Otherwise we would be in a situation where LC&P would not be applicable on holes the crew has not yet cut as grass is longer there than on holes that are already cut that particular day.

 

Ah, that would make the rule somewhat easier to deal with, outside of the question of whether or not some other part of the course should, or will be cut to fairway height or not.

 

But, in my opinion the comparison to LCP isn't a valid one. Every fairway has been cut to fairway height the last time it was cut and it will remain as such. The status of a particular area can only change when the staff decides to make the fairway more narrow and not mow some of it. The problem would arise only in a situation in which the particular fairway is being cut, needless to say I'd allow the player to use LCP in the yet-uncut part of the fairway.

 

But that's enough of philosophising on a rule I'll hopefully never have to deal with. 

[sui generis]

32 minutes ago, Halebopp said:

a rule I'll hopefully never have to deal with. 

 

Keep an open mind, Halebopp. Our experience is that, once players figure out how to properly take the relief, it's a useful Local Rule for everyday play. 🙂

[Mr. Bean]

1 hour ago, Halebopp said:

Every fairway has been cut to fairway height the last time it was cut and it will remain as such.

 

So has every teeing ground 😉

[Halebopp]

18 minutes ago, Mr. Bean said:

 

So has every teeing ground 😉

 

But if they don't cut the teeing grounds on a day when they have cut the fairways, I'd argue the teeing grounds would no longer be cut to fairway height. 🙂

[Newby]

58 minutes ago, Halebopp said:

 

But if they don't cut the teeing grounds on a day when they have cut the fairways, I'd argue the teeing grounds would no longer be cut to fairway height. 🙂

Given that grass blade length is always changing I would suggest that the length it was cut to last time it was cut is the criterion.

[Mr. Bean]

1 hour ago, Halebopp said:

 

But if they don't cut the teeing grounds on a day when they have cut the fairways, I'd argue the teeing grounds would no longer be cut to fairway height. 🙂

 

Think about the nightmare if teeing grounds have been cut on day 1 but fairways not ! ! 🤣

[nsxguy]

I thought I remembered something like this.

 

Here is a post from davep043 which had a sketch in it of a PAR 3 and where one might drop, which unfortunately is no longer there (board software changes ?)

 

As you will see the whole thread is about  the "OB and Lost Ball Rule"

[Halebopp]

1 hour ago, nsxguy said:

I thought I remembered something like this.

 

Here is a post from davep043 which had a sketch in it of a PAR 3 and where one might drop, which unfortunately is no longer there (board software changes ?)

 

As you will see the whole thread is about  the "OB and Lost Ball Rule"

 

Here's a quickly-drawn picture of such a hole and where the relief area would be. The ball is estimated to be lost in the red spot. The white line is the line from the hole to the edge of the nearest area cut to fairway height or less (a teeing ground), the paths aren't cut that short. The yellow lines indicate the edges of the Relief Area, which are two club lengths to the outside of the two reference points. If the path was cut to fairway height, the orange line would indicate the limit in such a case. Naturally the RA extends as far back as needed, not just the length of the lines drawn.

 

Edited November 18, 2022 by Halebopp

[Mr. Bean]

Why would RA be in rough?

[antip]

1 hour ago, Mr. Bean said:

Why would RA be in rough?

It is whatever it is (rough, jungle etc, it's all fair game) once those lines are drawn at either limit of the RA. In Hale's two examples, the small piece of short cut defines the line at the limit furthest from the ball.

Edited November 18, 2022 by antip

[Mr. Bean]

1 hour ago, antip said:

It is whatever it is (rough, jungle etc, it's all fair game) once those lines are drawn at either limit of the RA. In Hale's two examples, the small piece of short cut defines the line at the limit furthest from the ball.

 

What I meant was that doesn't the RA only start from the fairway cut and not from that yellow circle? So is the player allowed to drop closer to hole than the closest fairway reference point? That is not the case in E-5 pictures.

 

Edited November 18, 2022 by Mr. Bean

[Augster]

NVM. 

Edited November 19, 2022 by Augster

[rogolf]

10 minutes ago, Augster said:

In short, the player cheated and the caddie, by not calling the penalty, was in cahoots. The caddie is the player, the player is the caddie, in the Rules of golf. 
 

It’s why so many PGA players say “We” when recapping their round. Spieth gets any penalties Greller incurs. 

Maybe posted in the wrong thread?

[antip]

10 hours ago, Mr. Bean said:

 

What I meant was that doesn't the RA only start from the fairway cut and not from that yellow circle? So is the player allowed to drop closer to hole than the closest fairway reference point? That is not the case in E-5 pictures.

 

Ah, good question. But the diagrams in the book do not help us here, because they always offer a fairway reference point that is the same distance from the hole as the ball reference point. IMO, we probably need a completely different shaped RA in this scenario of the only possible FRP being considerably further from the hole than the BRP. My initial thought is in Hale's diagram in the teeing area being the only permitted FRP we should also draw a straight line between BRP and FRP with the relief area then defined as outside that equidistant arc initially (outside that straight line) and then following the straight line to the FRP. (I don't have the computer skills to attempt to adjust Hale's diagram.) 

The bottom line, though, is there are elements of the relief area that are closer to the hole than the FRP but it would not be the full area that Hale suggests. 

[Halebopp]

10 hours ago, Mr. Bean said:

 

What I meant was that doesn't the RA only start from the fairway cut and not from that yellow circle? So is the player allowed to drop closer to hole than the closest fairway reference point? That is not the case in E-5 pictures.

 

 

The Ball Reference Point determines how close to the hole the ball can be dropped and one edge of the Relief Area, the Fairway Reference Point determines the other edge.

[antip]

2 hours ago, Halebopp said:

 

The Ball Reference Point determines how close to the hole the ball can be dropped and one edge of the Relief Area, the Fairway Reference Point determines the other edge.

I think it sure would be useful to have RBs take complete ownership of this issue and publish diagrams that cover all the key permutations - including this variation being discussed, and the situation of this MLR being applied to a ball lost in the fairway - the wording published makes no clear sense of how to apply it in that situation.

[Colin L]

It would be even more useful if the relief process was simplified  - as for example the reference point being anywhere on the line between where the ball is likely to be lost or has gone out of bounds and the point one club length into the nearest fairway equidistant to the hole.

 

 

[Halebopp]

2 hours ago, antip said:

I think it sure would be useful to have RBs take complete ownership of this issue and publish diagrams that cover all the key permutations - including this variation being discussed, and the situation of this MLR being applied to a ball lost in the fairway - the wording published makes no clear sense of how to apply it in that situation.

 

Pictures are always welcome. Especially if the Relief Area for a ball lost on the fairway isn't two club lengths to both sides of the line from the hole, through the estimated spot where the ball was lost. 🙂

[rogolf]

I tend to agree with Hale - the BRP and FRP and the lines to the flagstick from them define the outer limits of the relief area and the ball's estimated position and distance to the flagstick defines the "front" of the relief area.  The player can drop anywhere within that defined relief area.  Imo, the fact that the player is dropping nearer the hole than the FRP is irrelevant - that point is only used to define an edge of the relief area.

For a ball lost in a fairway, there needs to be a BRP, which would be in the fairway itself, and a FRP which, IMO, would be to the nearest edge of that fairway.

[Mr. Bean]

It seems to me that this scenario of a hole with no or virtually no fairway around the green is so rare that RBs have not even considered it. I have never seen one in my life.

 

Besides, on a par3 it is easy to play a provisional so applying E-5 in this extremely rare situation might not be practical in any case.