MLR E-5 Out of Bounds

[davep043]

On 11/18/2022 at 1:06 PM, nsxguy said:

I thought I remembered something like this.

 

Here is a post from davep043 which had a sketch in it of a PAR 3 and where one might drop, which unfortunately is no longer there (board software changes ?)

 

As you will see the whole thread is about  the "OB and Lost Ball Rule"

I don't have that illustration with me, its on my home computer, and I'm "stuck" in Pinehurst for the next couple of weeks.  I'll try to remember to post it once I get home.

[Colin L]

Stuck in Pinehurst.  Sounds like a movie title.

 

Some folk have to make the sacrifices,  I suppose.

[davep043]

1 hour ago, Colin L said:

Stuck in Pinehurst.  Sounds like a movie title.

 

Some folk have to make the sacrifices,  I suppose.

Its not easy, been here a week already, and two more to go.  Staying here for the USGA Rules Workshop in early December.

[Mr. Bean]

42 minutes ago, davep043 said:

Its not easy, been here a week already, and two more to go.  Staying here for the USGA Rules Workshop in early December.

 

Resting out the jetlag..?

[denkea]

18 hours ago, Mr. Bean said:

It seems to me that this scenario of a hole with no or virtually no fairway around the green is so rare that RBs have not even considered it. I have never seen one in my life.

Wasn't there a time when Augusta National ONLY had closely mown areas?  No Rough?  

[Colin L]

I don't know about then, but I'm sure now they don't mow the pine straw very often.

 

 

Edited November 20, 2022 by Colin L

[dugue4]

A thought (dangerous): What if E5 was more punitive? IE drop where you assume the lost ball to be or same options as red penalty area for an OB, all with the same 2 shot penalty. The rule would be far easier to understand.   

[nsxguy]

1 hour ago, dugue4 said:

A thought (dangerous): What if E5 was more punitive? IE drop where you assume the lost ball to be or same options as red penalty area for an OB, all with the same 2 shot penalty. The rule would be far easier to understand.   

 

If I'm understanding you correctly, you're suggesting if the ball was lost or OB, instead of going to the fairway and lying 3, you want to drop in the immediate vicinity of the lost ball or OB and add 2. So one would be lying 3 where the ball was lost or OB, correct ?

 

One must remember that E-5 was made to speed up play and AVOID a provisional.

 

If your version were in place nobody would use it. They'd simply hit the provisional in an attempt to be 3 in the fairway rather than 3 in the trees using your E-5.

[Mr. Bean]

2 hours ago, nsxguy said:

 

If I'm understanding you correctly, you're suggesting if the ball was lost or OB, instead of going to the fairway and lying 3, you want to drop in the immediate vicinity of the lost ball or OB and add 2. So one would be lying 3 where the ball was lost or OB, correct ?

 

One must remember that E-5 was made to speed up play and AVOID a provisional.

 

If your version were in place nobody would use it. They'd simply hit the provisional in an attempt to be 3 in the fairway rather than 3 in the trees using your E-5.

 

I actually like dugue4's proposal. Current E-5 gives a player the benefit of dropping a ball in a decent place with no risk of hitting a provisional OB or lost. Thus it clearly speeds up play but also gives a player an advantage especially if the opening shot is a demanding one. Furthermore a player (especially a high capper) might be tempted not to concentrate at the shot as there will always be a decent place to drop a ball.

 

That is why I dislike the entire concept and heartily welcome the principle of not using it in any competition. And having said that, I cannot properly understand the existence of E-5 as on a casual round one may use whichever method as the score does not really count. I guess that was created only to satisfy the USGA handicap system in which (almost) all rounds are handicap rounds.

[antip]

3 hours ago, nsxguy said:

 

If I'm understanding you correctly, you're suggesting if the ball was lost or OB, instead of going to the fairway and lying 3, you want to drop in the immediate vicinity of the lost ball or OB and add 2. So one would be lying 3 where the ball was lost or OB, correct ?

 

One must remember that E-5 was made to speed up play and AVOID a provisional.

 

If your version were in place nobody would use it. They'd simply hit the provisional in an attempt to be 3 in the fairway rather than 3 in the trees using your E-5.

While I would not go quite as far as suggesting "nobody" would use it, I agree with the sentiment here - it would significantly undermine the logic of E-5 and this alternate version would rarely be a rational choice.

[Halebopp]

5 hours ago, dugue4 said:

A thought (dangerous): What if E5 was more punitive? IE drop where you assume the lost ball to be or same options as red penalty area for an OB, all with the same 2 shot penalty. The rule would be far easier to understand.   

 

It would definitely make the rule much more fair, especially to those who do find their original ball in a bad spot. (I'm assuming E-5 wasn't improved to include relief for Unplayable Ball in 2023.)

[sui generis]

8 hours ago, dugue4 said:

The rule would be far easier to understand.

 

How hard to "understand" is this?

----------------

First, estimate the spot where the ball was lost or went out of bounds. 

 

Second, from that spot, follow an arc equidistant from the flagstick to the nearest edge of the fairway, then extend that arc further by two club-lengths into the fairway. 

 

Third, drop anywhere in the general area behind that arc.

 

Add two penalty strokes.

---------------

😉

[Mr. Bean]

1 hour ago, sui generis said:

 

How hard to "understand" is this?

----------------

First, estimate the spot where the ball was lost or went out of bounds. 

 

Second, from that spot, follow an arc equidistant from the flagstick to the nearest edge of the fairway, then extend that arc further by two club-lengths into the fairway. 

 

Third, drop anywhere in the general area behind that arc.

 

Add two penalty strokes.

---------------

😉

 

I believe he said it would be easier to understand and he got that right, it certainly would be easier. What you wrote is not hard to understand but way more difficult to apply than the proposed one.

[nsxguy]

5 hours ago, Halebopp said:

 

It would definitely make the rule much more fair, especially to those who do find their original ball in a bad spot. (I'm assuming E-5 wasn't improved to include relief for Unplayable Ball in 2023.)

 

Not sure exactly where you're going here.

 

If the player finds his ball, E-5 no longer applies.

 

But that brings up another reason why I believe few players would drop there and lie 3. NOW he's in a place from which he may not be able to even get the next shot TO the fairway.

 

So he drops, lying 3 in the garbage, and may take 2 (+ ?) more to get to the fairway. So, off the tee, if he has any idea of how poor the area is where he's hit his original ball, he's not going to rely on E-5, he'll hit a provisional.

 

And who would want to be laying 4 in the fairway when he can be lying 3 in the fairway with a provisional ? IMO he would be FAR more likely to just hit the provisional rather than possibly lying at least 4 and possibly 5 in the fairway.

 

Anyway, that would be my thinking if I considered using E-5.

[nsxguy]

7 hours ago, Mr. Bean said:

 

I actually like dugue4's proposal. Current E-5 gives a player the benefit of dropping a ball in a decent place with no risk of hitting a provisional OB or lost. Thus it clearly speeds up play but also gives a player an advantage especially if the opening shot is a demanding one. Furthermore a player (especially a high capper) might be tempted not to concentrate at the shot as there will always be a decent place to drop a ball.

 

That is why I dislike the entire concept and heartily welcome the principle of not using it in any competition. And having said that, I cannot properly understand the existence of E-5 as on a casual round one may use whichever method as the score does not really count. I guess that was created only to satisfy the USGA handicap system in which (almost) all rounds are handicap rounds.

 

You dislike the entire concept and like dugue's proposal to make E-5 mostly(?) obsolete/irrelevant. Now there's a surprise.

 

The score counts to those who have some $ on the outcome, "casual" round or otherwise.

 

And given what I believe is your position on slow play, I'm sure you DO understand the point of using E-5.

[Halebopp]

11 minutes ago, nsxguy said:

 

Not sure exactly where you're going here.

 

If the player finds his ball, E-5 no longer applies.

 

For that very reason the suggested rule would be much fairer, or either allow the procedure for an Unplayable Ball, I don't know if they've done that for 2023. A player who manages to find his/her ball on the course has played a better shot than the person whose ball goes OB or cannot be found. Yet the former player has no guarantee of lying 3 on the fairway like the latter one does. In my opinion such a situation would be ridiculous. (I said "would be" because I've never had to deal with the rule in real life.)

 

[sui generis]

28 minutes ago, Halebopp said:

(I said "would be" because I've never had to deal with the rule in real life.)

 

E-5, in practice, is quite simple and keeps it moving . . . which, after all, is its stated purpose.

 

Of course, E-5 is an option. No one is subjected to it involuntarily. Any player is entitled to ignore E-5 and play a provisional or go back and replay their stroke.

 

I have no data, only an anecdote to offer you. My club put it into practice on 1/1/19 and thus far no evidence has surfaced that any player's use of E-5 has altered the outcome of any competition. 

 

 

[Mr. Bean]

14 minutes ago, sui generis said:

I have no data, only an anecdote to offer you. My club put it into practice on 1/1/19 and thus far no evidence has surfaced that any player's use of E-5 has altered the outcome of any competition. 

 

How can you tell? If E-5 had not been in force how many poor provisional balls would have been hit..?

[Mr. Bean]

1 hour ago, nsxguy said:

The score counts to those who have some $ on the outcome, "casual" round or otherwise.

 

 

That is no argument. I am sure those players would be able to manage their skins/nassaus even without E-5- After all, they are free to form their own committees and invent whichever rules they wish.

[rogolf]

44 minutes ago, Mr. Bean said:

 

That is no argument. I am sure those players would be able to manage their skins/nassaus even without E-5- After all, they are free to form their own committees and invent whichever rules they wish.

Lots of advice here about E-5 offered by those who don't use it or value it!

[Halebopp]

23 minutes ago, rogolf said:

Lots of advice here about E-5 offered by those who don't use it or value it!

 

Are you suggesting the local rule wouldn't be fairer and better if everyone had the right to drop a ball onto the fairway and lie 3 after a bad, or an unlucky, tee shot?

[rogolf]

1 hour ago, Halebopp said:

 

Are you suggesting the local rule wouldn't be fairer and better if everyone had the right to drop a ball onto the fairway and lie 3 after a bad, or an unlucky, tee shot?

I’m just saying that those that choose to implement E-5 just as written are quite happy with it. No need for change- it does the job for which it was intended. 
if you don’t want to find your ball in an unplayable position, don’t look for it, go immediately to E-5. 

Edited November 27, 2022 by rogolf

[nsxguy]

4 hours ago, Halebopp said:

 

For that very reason the suggested rule would be much fairer, or either allow the procedure for an Unplayable Ball, I don't know if they've done that for 2023. A player who manages to find his/her ball on the course has played a better shot than the person whose ball goes OB or cannot be found. Yet the former player has no guarantee of lying 3 on the fairway like the latter one does. In my opinion such a situation would be ridiculous. (I said "would be" because I've never had to deal with the rule in real life.)

 

 

How can a rule be fairer,,,,,,,, or less fair,,,,,,,,, if it doesn't apply ?

 

Once again, this rule is expected to be available for CASUAL play and/or low level comps. i.e. to speed up play.

 

That aside however, IMO, if a low 'capper needs to use this rule even a single time, a) his round likely won't be low enough to affect his 'cap and b) he probably won't be one of the lower nets, Stableford, or gross winners either. Possible ? Sure. Likely ? Nope.

 

Same thing goes for a higher capper except it'd likely take 2 or 3 such E-5s to knock them completely out of it.

 

Much ado about nothing. i.e. it only helps speed up play.

[nsxguy]

3 hours ago, Mr. Bean said:

 

That is no argument. I am sure those players would be able to manage their skins/nassaus even without E-5- After all, they are free to form their own committees and invent whichever rules they wish.

 

C'mon, of course they could figure it out, and invent their own rules, but this is about using MLR E-5 and now you're chastising them for TRYING to play by the Rules ?

 

So what's YOUR point ?

 

YOU said  "I cannot properly understand the existence of E-5 as on a casual round one may use whichever method as the score does not really count".

 

And I told you the score DOES count.

 

And "That's no argument" ??? 🤦‍♀️

[Halebopp]

12 hours ago, nsxguy said:

 

How can a rule be fairer,,,,,,,, or less fair,,,,,,,,, if it doesn't apply ?

 

Once again, this rule is expected to be available for CASUAL play and/or low level comps. i.e. to speed up play.

 

That aside however, IMO, if a low 'capper needs to use this rule even a single time, a) his round likely won't be low enough to affect his 'cap and b) he probably won't be one of the lower nets, Stableford, or gross winners either. Possible ? Sure. Likely ? Nope.

 

Same thing goes for a higher capper except it'd likely take 2 or 3 such E-5s to knock them completely out of it.

 

Much ado about nothing. i.e. it only helps speed up play.

 

You must've left the post I was replying to unread. It was a comment on what's wrong with it now and how it could be improved. Heck, it would speed up play even more if it was allowed for an Unplayable Ball.

[Newby]

19 minutes ago, Halebopp said:

Heck, it would speed up play even more if it was allowed for an Unplayable Ball.

And even for a 'can't be bothered to look' ball.

Edited November 28, 2022 by Newby

[Mr. Bean]

17 hours ago, rogolf said:

Lots of advice here about E-5 offered by those who don't use it or value it!

 

Do you mean that nobody not using E-5 should make any comments or suggestions about it? I wonder how the draft was commented when that LR did not yet exist...

 

Edited November 28, 2022 by Mr. Bean

[Mr. Bean]

2 hours ago, Halebopp said:

 

You must've left the post I was replying to unread. It was a comment on what's wrong with it now and how it could be improved. Heck, it would speed up play even more if it was allowed for an Unplayable Ball.

 

That is one Rule I would like to see changed altogether, i.e. continuing play with a provisional ball after the original ball is found unplayable. I can understand that it would give the player a choice between two balls but as that option already exists in MLR B-3 I see no reason not to allow that option also with unplayable ball.

 

Edited November 28, 2022 by Mr. Bean
typo

[Halebopp]

13 hours ago, rogolf said:

I’m just saying that those that choose to implement E-5 just as written are quite happy with it. No need for change- it does the job for which it was intended. 
if you don’t want to find your ball in an unplayable position, don’t look for it, go immediately to E-5. 

 

Fair enough, but like I mentioned in the reply to nsx, allowing it for unplayable balls would speed up the game even further. There could also be cultural differences with regard to how likely players are to play provisional balls and with the need to get an actual stroke-play score for a round.

[Mr. Bean]

16 hours ago, rogolf said:

if you don’t want to find your ball in an unplayable position, don’t look for it, go immediately to E-5. 

 

Now that would be immensely stupid as a ball may be found from a fair and playable place as well.