Jump to content

West Palm Beach Muni Reopening Soon?


darom86

Recommended Posts

2 hours ago, nsxguy said:

 

Understood. There are a lot of factors at play.

 

One is, Tiger and his friends play there once a year - that lends considerable cachet to the pricing formula and basically stamps it as a superior golf course and a "must play" for many visitors. Highly unlikely that'll ever happen at WPB Muni.

 

But munis are operated by the gubmint. The local tax base (already) provides a lot of the funds to operate the course. Exorbitant (assuming that's what this is) pricing to use the facility can be viewed as the gubmint kinda sorta double-dipping.

 

Fortunately there are still some decent courses around that are reasonably priced around here, especially during the Summer months. But if inflation and the (C-19)golf boom keep going, might not be for long,,,,,,,,,, Dunno1.gif

No doubt.  There may have been some private investors for the redo.  So they may be getting paid back. 
 

Some have said it’s the next best course in south Florida behind Seminole.  If that’s the case the price probably won’t be coming down.  One thing i dislike about Florida golf is all the water.  So I’d pay more to play a course without it. 
 

BTW if any of you Florida guys have Seminole connections please let me know.  😂😂.  I’ll book a flight 

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 hours ago, nsxguy said:

 

Understood. There are a lot of factors at play.

 

One is, Tiger and his friends play there once a year - that lends considerable cachet to the pricing formula and basically stamps it as a superior golf course and a "must play" for many visitors. Highly unlikely that'll ever happen at WPB Muni.

 

But munis are operated by the gubmint. The local tax base (already) provides a lot of the funds to operate the course. Exorbitant (assuming that's what this is) pricing to use the facility can be viewed as the gubmint kinda sorta double-dipping.

 

Fortunately there are still some decent courses around that are reasonably priced around here, especially during the Summer months. But if inflation and the (C-19)golf boom keep going, might not be for long,,,,,,,,,, Dunno1.gif

I do wish these munis were a little more reasonable.  Do they have to charge the visitor 4x as much as the local?  I’m taking someone to Torrey and I’m embarrassed to say how much this is going to cost me.  I don’t get the local rate myself.  Glad to show him the views once…

Link to comment
Share on other sites

49 minutes ago, So_Cal said:

No doubt.  There may have been some private investors for the redo.  So they may be getting paid back. 
 

Some have said it’s the next best course in south Florida behind Seminole.  If that’s the case the price probably won’t be coming down.  One thing i dislike about Florida golf is all the water.  So I’d pay more to play a course without it. 
 

BTW if any of you Florida guys have Seminole connections please let me know.  😂😂.  I’ll book a flight 

Water builds character. It's good for you.

  • Haha 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 minute ago, So_Cal said:

😉.   Don’t mind a couple of water holes but find myself agreeing with Donald Ross and MacKenzie.  Two times a round is enough. 

And yet, the most pivotal holes at ANGC are the ones with water in play. Without modern green speeds, Ross courses would get pulverized. PAs (including tight, thick tree lined fairways which are PAs in disguise) and wind are the great equalizers or you can make greens marginally unputtable. Everything else tends to be pretty easy. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

26 minutes ago, ThinkingPlus said:

And yet, the most pivotal holes at ANGC are the ones with water in play. Without modern green speeds, Ross courses would get pulverized. PAs (including tight, thick tree lined fairways which are PAs in disguise) and wind are the great equalizers or you can make greens marginally unputtable. Everything else tends to be pretty easy. 

Agree.  100 year old courses designed for hickories will be pulverized by toasters on a stick.  It’s fine.  No worries.  The less water the better for normal golfers.  

  • Haha 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 5/14/2023 at 10:22 AM, nsxguy said:

But munis are operated by the gubmint. The local tax base (already) provides a lot of the funds to operate the course. Exorbitant (assuming that's what this is) pricing to use the facility can be viewed as the gubmint kinda sorta double-dipping.

You should not paint all golf courses on municipally-owned land with this broad a brush. There is a big spectrum of ways in which municipal golf courses are operated and funded, and a lot of them are not at all as you describe.

 

The Park may sit on land that belongs to the City of West Palm Beach, but it's far from any stereotypical notion of "city muni." It is much more like what you would consider a high-end daily-fee country-club-for-a-day golf course. The vibe I perceived on Monday was much closer to that of, say, Streamsong (albeit in a much more populated area) than a tired old city course. Lots of people who are members of private clubs hanging around. I saw multiple golf bags from a club that has hosted the U.S. Open.

 

Yes, the non-city green fees are very high, but if you gave me the option of paying $200+ to play The Park or a similar price to play the little resort course at The Breakers, it would be no contest whatsoever; The Park would win out 9 out of 10 times at least. It's very, very good.

Edited by Tim_Gavrich
typo
  • Like 1

Senior Writer, GolfPass


PING G425 LST - KBS TD 60g Cat 4
Srixon Z F65 15 & 19
TM V-Steel 21
PXG 0311 ST (GEN 4) 4-W - Nippon Modus3 105X
Titleist Vokey SM8 52 & 58 (raw)
Evnroll ER5 (370g)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

19 hours ago, So_Cal said:

Some have said it’s the next best course in south Florida behind Seminole.  If that’s the case the price probably won’t be coming down.  One thing i dislike about Florida golf is all the water.  So I’d pay more to play a course without it. 

 

AS my buddy who is now a Texas resident, but former Floridian liked to say about golf there, "Florida is the land of lakes and stakes."

 

It can get excessive, but again, like the fact most courses are pan flat, the selling point to Florida golf is the fact you can play in shorts in January.  At least, it is to this Canadian.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

14 hours ago, Tim_Gavrich said:

You should not paint all golf courses on municipally-owned land with this broad a brush. There is a big spectrum of ways in which municipal golf courses are operated and funded, and a lot of them are not at all as you describe.

 

The Park may sit on land that belongs to the City of West Palm Beach, but it far from any stereotypical notion of "city muni." It is much more like what you would consider a high-end daily-fee country-club-for-a-day golf course. The vibe I perceived on Monday was much closer to that of, say, Streamsong (albeit in a much more populated area) than a tired old city course. Lots of people who are members of private clubs hanging around. I saw multiple golf bags from a club that has hosted the U.S. Open.

 

Yes, the non-city green fees are very high, but if you gave me the option of paying $200+ to play The Park or a similar price to play the little resort course at The Breakers, it would be no contest whatsoever; The Park would win out 9 out of 10 times at least. It's very, very good.

 

Who's painting "all golf courses on municipally-owned land with this broad a brush" ?

 

Why did you leave out the first line of my post you quoted ?

 

And I quote "There are a lot of factors at play."

Callaway Epic Flash SZ 9.0 Ventus Blue 6S

Ping G425 14.5 Fairway Tour AD TP 6X

Ping G425 MAX 20.5 7 wood Diamana Blue 70 S

Ping G20 5-PW DGS300 Yellow Dot

Ping Glide Pro 48*

Taylormade MG3 52*, 56*, TW 60* DGS200

LAB Mezz Max 35*, RED, Black Accra

Callaway Tour TruTrack Yellow

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 5/14/2023 at 1:13 PM, So_Cal said:

Some have said it’s the next best course in south Florida behind Seminole.

It has a Seminole connection with some on the Board of Directors. If it shows up as #2 on some list, its because of the BoD being connected. 

 

On 5/14/2023 at 11:38 PM, Tim_Gavrich said:

It is much more like what you would consider a high-end daily-fee country-club-for-a-day golf course.

This is consistent with what I have heard and seen. Gil Hanse designed a great course. 

 

 

Here is a quote from the groundbreaking. I would gather "surrounding community" to be more than just WPB proper. I have heard rumors of a county rate. 

 

“We also will ensure that everyone in the surrounding community feels welcome and can afford a round of golf or a lesson,” said Waugh. “We take inclusivity extremely seriously.”

 

 

Cobra LTDx 10.5* Tour AD HD 5X, Rad Tour 16*, Even Flow White 6.0, Tour Edge 19* 3H, Hzdrus Smoke Black 6.0

Titleist U500 4 23* Hzdrus Smoke Black 6.0 

Titleist 718 AP2 5-P DG AMT White S300 

Vokey SM7 50/8* F, 54/10* S, SM8 58/10* S, DG S200

Odyssey 2 Ball Blade, Vice Pro Plus, Foresight GC3 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Although this is land owned by the City of West Palm Beach (of which I am a resident) it is far from a muni. To back the renovation, new buildings, etc., along with being able to financially support the course in the future it was backed by donors - with the rumor being a minimum contribution of $150,000. They were able to raise 52 million through private donations. There will be a "donor" benefit to the club for preferred tee times and possible additional facility use. 

 

Don't really understand the discussion about price point. $60 for a WPB resident or $130 for a county resent really isn't "high" for the area when considering the quality of this course and what the upkeep of a top tier course costs. North Palm Beach (city owned) is $145 in season for 18, Abacoa is around the same - The Park is so much better in all aspects. There are plenty of options down the road at Okeeheelee, Osprey, Park Ridge if you want to play for $30 - but you obviously sacrifice in the quality of course you are playing.  

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, FlashinLeather said:

Don't really understand the discussion about price point. $60 for a WPB resident or $130 for a county resent really isn't "high" for the area when considering the quality of this course and what the upkeep of a top tier course costs. North Palm Beach (city owned) is $145 in season for 18, Abacoa is around the same - The Park is so much better in all aspects. There are plenty of options down the road at Okeeheelee, Osprey, Park Ridge if you want to play for $30 - but you obviously sacrifice in the quality of course you are playing.  

 

Sixty dollars is reasonable. Even a peak season fee comparable with Abacoa is fine. I think the premise of the "Park" is to provide access and inclusivity and to grow the game. I really didn't expect that access to require caddies before noon. That seems like a private course thing to do that happens across the lagoon. Again, its a top end course with a non-profit engine (seeded with some big player money) partnering with a municipality. 

 

Now having consulted on the some of the planned youth outreach and caddie programs, I think we will soon see a concerted effort to grow the game in a place where "everyone is welcome." They have some really cool things planned like a high school mentoring (through caddying and golf) with local leaders and will have a lot of junior events. This is just getting off the ground and will only get better with time. I suspect they will get the ball rolling there and will have so many golf related activities (not just the champion 18) going on that it will have a positive effect on the community along with being a premiere resort style feel. They have the South Florida section HQ going in, a golf school, nine hole course, and more. The championship course is just the beginning. 

Edited by TourSpoon
Clarification

Cobra LTDx 10.5* Tour AD HD 5X, Rad Tour 16*, Even Flow White 6.0, Tour Edge 19* 3H, Hzdrus Smoke Black 6.0

Titleist U500 4 23* Hzdrus Smoke Black 6.0 

Titleist 718 AP2 5-P DG AMT White S300 

Vokey SM7 50/8* F, 54/10* S, SM8 58/10* S, DG S200

Odyssey 2 Ball Blade, Vice Pro Plus, Foresight GC3 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

8 minutes ago, TourSpoon said:

 

Sixty dollars is reasonable. Even a peak season fee comparable with Abacoa is fine. I think the premise of the "Park" is to provide access and inclusivity and to grow the game. I really didn't expect that access to require caddies before noon. That seems like a private course thing to do that happens across the lagoon. Again, its a top end course with a non-profit engine (seeded with some big player money) partnering with a municipality. 

 

Now having consulted on the some of the planned youth outreach and caddie programs, I think we will soon see a concerted effort to grow the game in a place where "everyone is welcome." They have some really cool things planned like a high school mentoring (through caddying and golf) with local leaders and will have a lot of junior events. This is just getting off the ground and will only get better with time. I suspect they will get the ball rolling there and will have so many golf related activities (not just the champion 18) going on that it will have a positive effect on the community along with being a premiere resort style feel. They have the South Florida section HQ going in, a golf school, nine hole course, and more. The championship course is just the beginning. 

 

Caddies are mandatory 8 am to 9 am. They are optional after that.

 

It is my understanding that they have a relationship with the Evans Scholars Foundation - a non-profit that provides tuition and housing college scholarships to golf caddies.

 

All the price points that we have been talking about are for adults. The course is discounted for children, including the par three course and affordable golf lessons for kids. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

24 minutes ago, FlashinLeather said:

 

Caddies are mandatory 8 am to 9 am. They are optional after that.

 

It is my understanding that they have a relationship with the Evans Scholars Foundation - a non-profit that provides tuition and housing college scholarships to golf caddies.

 

All the price points that we have been talking about are for adults. The course is discounted for children, including the par three course and affordable golf lessons for kids. 

 

Correct, the idea is to have the Evans Scholar program. I have been involved in these talks and it will be very impactful for the kids at Forest Hill.  

 

I think this will be the community program that it was billed to be. The additional programs that will be added along with par three and lessons should be taking off soon.  Residents around the Park are getting excited and it should turn out to be a great asset for WPB and surrounding communities. 

Cobra LTDx 10.5* Tour AD HD 5X, Rad Tour 16*, Even Flow White 6.0, Tour Edge 19* 3H, Hzdrus Smoke Black 6.0

Titleist U500 4 23* Hzdrus Smoke Black 6.0 

Titleist 718 AP2 5-P DG AMT White S300 

Vokey SM7 50/8* F, 54/10* S, SM8 58/10* S, DG S200

Odyssey 2 Ball Blade, Vice Pro Plus, Foresight GC3 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I think part of the issue with the cost is there doesn’t seem to be discounted Summer rates like there are at some of the other top tier publics that have already been mentioned here. Maybe that will change once the Summer actually arrives, or maybe not. With this being the first year it’s open I’d be surprised at any discounted fees. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

had a chance to finally play the course yesterday.  I have to say it was a very enjoyable experience.  Teed off at 848 and was down around 1pm; took a little time at the turn but never had to wait on any holes.  My biggest complaint about this place is the lack of drinking water/comfort stations on the course.  Taking a caddy was mandatory before 9 but i would say it was worth it.  There were a lot of holes that you had to land your approach shot way short, or other knowledge a caddy was able to share that you woudn't know.  One hole comes to mind, it was 170 pin but caddy said hit a 145 shot because it will bound off the mounds.  Sure enough it did.  Next time when i play i think i will play after 9am, and take a 4 caddy but as a WPM resident will definitely be back.  Once the range opens it will be a great place to go practice as well

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I played the course Monday after work (9 holes) because I was in the area for work. I was pleasantly surprised how nice it was and definitely had Pinehurst vibes. Tight lies, wasteland, and plenty of risk/reward shots. Gil Hanse did an amazing job.

Driver: Callaway Paradym Triple D w/ Hazardous Smoke Green Hulk 70TX @45.25

3W: Taylormade M2 15* w/ Hazardous Smoke Green Hulk 80X.

5W: Taylormade M6 18* w/ Hazardous Smoke Green Hulk 90 TX.

Irons: Miura Retro Tournament blades 3i, 4i, and 7i. Miura MB-001 5i, 6i, 8i-PW. 3i with MMT 125TX. 4i-PW are Oak doweled, DG X100 Tiger Stepped 1/4”

lofts: 3i: 20* 4i: 24* 5i: 28* 6i: 32* 7i: 36* 8i: 40* 9i: 44* PW: 48*

Wedges: Fourteen RM4 56* DG X7, Miura 59* At 61* DG X7

Putter: Taylormade Spider

Grips: Golf pride MCC+4.

Ball: Srixon Z-Star XV

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Gil Hanse always brings it. And not trying to be snarky but 130 bucks for a Gil Hanse in Florida right now is pretty darn good. They’ve raised the rates across the board even for summer rates in Florida. 

Paradym ADTP 6s
Paradym X 3W ADDI 7s
Rogue SZ 5W ADDI 7s
Callaway Apex Pro 4H ADDI 85s
Titleist T200 5i, T100 6-PW Accra i100
Titleist 50F-54S-58M Accra i105

Newport 2 Tri Sole

Pro-V1x

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.
  • Our picks

    • 2024 Charles Schwab Challenge - Discussion and Links to Photos
      Please put any questions or comments here
       
       
       
      General Albums
       
      2024 Charles Schwab Challenge - Monday #1
      2024 Charles Schwab Challenge - Tuesday #1
      2024 Charles Schwab Challenge - Tuesday #2
      2024 Charles Schwab Challenge - Tuesday #3
       
       
       
       
      WITB Albums
       
      Keith Mitchell - WITB - 2024 Charles Schwab Challenge
      Rafa Campos - WITB - 2024 Charles Schwab Challenge
      R Squared - WITB - 2024 Charles Schwab Challenge
      Martin Laird - WITB - 2024 Charles Schwab Challenge
      Paul Haley - WITB - 2024 Charles Schwab Challenge
      Tyler Duncan - WITB - 2024 Charles Schwab Challenge
      Min Woo Lee - WITB - 2024 Charles Schwab Challenge
      Austin Smotherman - WITB - 2024 Charles Schwab Challenge
      Lee Hodges - WITB - 2024 Charles Schwab Challenge
      Sami Valimaki - WITB - 2024 Charles Schwab Challenge
       
       
       
       
      Pullout Albums
       
      Eric Cole's newest custom Cameron putter - 2024 Charles Schwab Challenge
      New Super Stroke Marvel comic themed grips - 2024 Charles Schwab Challenge
      Ben Taylor's custom Cameron putter - 2024 Charles Schwab Challenge
      Tyler Duncan's Axis 1 putter - 2024 Charles Schwab Challenge
      Cameron putters - 2024 Charles Schwab Challenge
      Chris Kirk's new Callaway Opus wedges - 2024 Charles Schwab Challenge
      ProTC irons - 2024 Charles Schwab Challenge
      Dragon Skin 360 grips - 2024 Charles Schwab Challenge
      Cobra prototype putters - 2024 Charles Schwab Challenge
      SeeMore putters - 2024 Charles Schwab Challenge
       
       
       
       
       
       
       
       
      • 0 replies
    • 2024 PGA Championship - Discussion and Links to Photos
      Please put  any questions or comments here
       
       
       
       
      General Albums
       
      2024 PGA Championship - Monday #1
       
       
       
       
       
      WITB Albums
       
      Michael Block - WITB - 2024 PGA Championship
      Patrick Reed - WITB - 2024 PGA Championship
      Cam Smith - WITB - 2024 PGA Championship
      Brooks Koepka - WITB - 2024 PGA Championship
      Josh Speight - WITB - 2024 PGA Championship
      Takumi Kanaya - WITB - 2024 PGA Championship
      Kyle Mendoza - WITB - 2024 PGA Championship
      Adrian Meronk - WITB - 2024 PGA Championship
      Jordan Smith - WITB - 2024 PGA Championship
      Jeremy Wells - WITB - 2024 PGA Championship
      Jared Jones - WITB - 2024 PGA Championship
      John Somers - WITB - 2024 PGA Championship
      Larkin Gross - WITB - 2024 PGA Championship
      Tracy Phillips - WITB - 2024 PGA Championship
      Jon Rahm - WITB - 2024 PGA Championship
      Keita Nakajima - WITB - 2024 PGA Championship
      Kazuma Kobori - WITB - 2024 PGA Championship
      David Puig - WITB - 2024 PGA Championship
      Ryan Van Velzen - WITB - 2024 PGA Championship
       
       
       
       
      Pullout Albums
       
      Ping putter covers - 2024 PGA Championship
      Bettinardi covers - 2024 PGA Championship
      Cameron putter covers - 2024 PGA Championship
      Max Homa - Titleist 2 wood - 2024 PGA Championship
      Scotty Cameron experimental putter shaft by UST - 2024 PGA Championship
       
       
       
        • Like
      • 13 replies
    • 2024 Wells Fargo Championship - Discussion and Links to Photos
      Please put any questions or comments here
       
       
       
       
       
      General Albums
       
      2024 Wells Fargo Championship - Monday #1
      2024 Wells Fargo Championship - Tuesday #1
      2024 Wells Fargo Championship - Tuesday #2
       
       
       
       
      WITB Albums
       
      Akshay Bhatia - WITB - 2024 Wells Fargo Championship
      Matthieu Pavon - WITB - 2024 Wells Fargo Championship
      Keegan Bradley - WITB - 2024 Wells Fargo Championship
      Webb Simpson - WITB - 2024 Wells Fargo Championship
      Emiliano Grillo - WITB - 2024 Wells Fargo Championship
      Taylor Pendrith - WITB - 2024 Wells Fargo Championship
      Kevin Tway - WITB - 2024 Wells Fargo Championship
       
       
       
       
      Pullout Albums
       
      Rory McIlroy - 2024 Wells Fargo Championship
      New Cobra equipment truck - 2024 Wells Fargo Championship
      Eric Cole's custom Cameron putter - 2024 Wells Fargo Championship
      Custom Cameron putter - 2024 Wells Fargo Championship
      Matt Kuchar's custom Bettinardi - 2024 Wells Fargo Championship
      Justin Thomas - driver change - 2024 Wells Fargo Championship
      Rickie Fowler - putter change - 2024 Wells Fargo Championship
      Rickie Fowler's new custom Odyssey Jailbird 380 putter – 2024 Wells Fargo Championship
      Tommy Fleetwood testing a TaylorMade Spider Tour X (with custom neck) – 2024 Wells Fargo Championship
      Cobra Darkspeed Volition driver – 2024 Wells Fargo Championship
       
       
       
       
      • 2 replies
    • 2024 CJ Cup Byron Nelson - Discussion and Links to Photos
      Put any questions or comments here
       
       
       
       
      General Albums
       
      2024 CJ Cup Byron Nelson - Monday #1
      2024 CJ Cup Byron Nelson - Monday #2
      2024 CJ Cup Byron Nelson - Tuesday #1
      2024 CJ Cup Byron Nelson - Tuesday #2
      2024 CJ Cup Byron Nelson - Tuesday #3
       
       
       
      WITB Albums
       
      Pierceson Coody - WITB - 2024 CJ Cup Byron Nelson
      Kris Kim - WITB - 2024 CJ Cup Byron Nelson
      David Nyfjall - WITB - 2024 CJ Cup Byron Nelson
      Adrien Dumont de Chassart - WITB - 2024 CJ Cup Byron Nelson
      Jarred Jetter - North Texas PGA Section Champ - WITB - 2024 CJ Cup Byron Nelson
      Richy Werenski - WITB - 2024 CJ Cup Byron Nelson
      Wesley Bryan - WITB - 2024 CJ Cup Byron Nelson
      Parker Coody - WITB - 2024 CJ Cup Byron Nelson
      Peter Kuest - WITB - 2024 CJ Cup Byron Nelson
      Blaine Hale, Jr. - WITB - 2024 CJ Cup Byron Nelson
      Kelly Kraft - WITB - 2024 CJ Cup Byron Nelson
      Rico Hoey - WITB - 2024 CJ Cup Byron Nelson
       
       
       
       
       
       
      Pullout Albums
       
      Adam Scott's 2 new custom L.A.B. Golf putters - 2024 CJ Cup Byron Nelson
      Scotty Cameron putters - 2024 CJ Cup Byron Nelson
       
       
       
       
       
       
       
        • Like
      • 11 replies
    • 2024 Zurich Classic - Discussion and Links to Photos
      Please put any questions or comments here
       
       
       
       
      General Albums
       
      2024 Zurich Classic - Monday #1
      2024 Zurich Classic - Monday #2
       
       
       
      WITB Albums
       
      Alex Fitzpatrick - WITB - 2024 Zurich Classic
      Austin Cook - WITB - 2024 Zurich Classic
      Alejandro Tosti - WITB - 2024 Zurich Classic
      Davis Riley - WITB - 2024 Zurich Classic
      MJ Daffue - WITB - 2024 Zurich Classic
      Nate Lashley - WITB - 2024 Zurich Classic
       
       
       
       
       
      Pullout Albums
       
      MJ Daffue's custom Cameron putter - 2024 Zurich Classic
      Cameron putters - 2024 Zurich Classic
      Swag covers ( a few custom for Nick Hardy) - 2024 Zurich Classic
      Custom Bettinardi covers for Matt and Alex Fitzpatrick - 2024 Zurich Classic
       
       
       
        • Like
      • 1 reply

×
×
  • Create New...