New AMG Shallowing Video - Wow...

[MPStrat]

Some observations

 

Both of these videos shed even more light on the fact that “the arms lower in every swing” is a purely academic “gotcha” argument.

 

Manzella said the second “lead arm” in both swings is “after p5” — so from the top of the swing or p4 to somewhere between p5 and p6 is a long way and the arms have only lowered a tiny amount in both players. Most of the lowering takes place from almost p6 to impact. Or yo-yo-ing later like GG says. 
 

DJ’s total amount of lowering in the entire swing is essentially “p4 for Tony Finau” 😂 

 

So what this shows is that there is a tiny amount of lowering from p4 to p5.5 for both — from p5.5 to impact there are players like DJ, Xander, and Champ who generally stay a lot more rotational and lower with the chest or like Rory and Justin Rose who have more arm lowering, and are taller with the chest. Then you have a bunch somewhere in between the two. 
 

The point of this is that if you early extend and don’t rotate in your swing and want to, more arm lowering might make what you’re trying to do more difficult. 
 

These are simple concepts. 

[MPStrat]

23 minutes ago, GoGoErky said:

Someone else posted that smaethkng

yesterday.

 

Didn’t Milo and GG say they don’t lower?

 

Also didn’t AMG say or at least show they all don’t lower the same amount?

1. Someone posted Rory, not DJ. 

 

2. No

 

3. No, I never heard AMG say that. If you can find a clip of them pointing out the difference between the two patterns I would like to see it. 

[MPStrat]

42 minutes ago, MtlJayMan said:

never thinking or feeling anything right side related... If my intent is on right side flexion, bending - I evidently leave too much pressure there, too late, in order to lower - needing something to 'brace against'

 

 

I thought something similar when the concept was introduced to me the first time. The idea is that the core works the right hip joint down and under a flexed lead knee so that the body can rotate freely without the right side moving out toward the ball too much.

Edited March 3, 2023 by MPStrat

[PracticeSwinger]

6 minutes ago, MPStrat said:

 

I thought something similar when the concept was introduced to me the first time. The idea is that the core works the right hip joint down and under a flexed lead knee so that the body can rotate freely without the right side moving out toward the ball too much.

I'd guess we were in a internal vs external hip rotation discussion before your edit... now I'm not so sure haha

[MPStrat]

2 minutes ago, MtlJayMan said:

I'd guess we were in a internal vs external hip rotation discussion 

That is most definitely part of it 

[iacas]

4 hours ago, Fhbrook23 said:

I am curious why you don't hold yourself or others to the same standard you have for amg.  An example is cherry picking a still frame from a you know is a drill while using it as a gotcha to take shots at his "pro impact."

 

👍🏼

 

4 hours ago, MPStrat said:

I have no axe to grind with AMG.

 

Suuuuuuuuuuure.

 

48 minutes ago, MPStrat said:

Both of these videos shed even more light on the fact that “the arms lower in every swing” is a purely academic “gotcha” argument.

 

I don't see it that way. DJ's arms lower quite a bit too. It depends a bit on your definition of "lowering" of course, but my definition involves the amount of right (trail) elbow widening.

 

48 minutes ago, MPStrat said:

Manzella said the second “lead arm” in both swings is “after p5” — so from the top of the swing or p4 to somewhere between p5 and p6 is a long way and the arms have only lowered a tiny amount in both players. Most of the lowering takes place from almost p6 to impact. Or yo-yo-ing later like GG says. 

 

Much of the "lowering" in horrible swings takes place late, too. That doesn't say much. This guy did a lot of "lowering" late. Rotation early, lowering late (left).

 

 

Today, he had to FEEL like he lowered (by widening the right elbow) almost entirely before his body turned through. The right (after) is still him exaggerating it quite a bit.

 

Without a bunch of right side bend, he's not getting the club to the ball unless he stalls and chops. Which is what he's in the process of on the left.

 

AMG videos are for guys like this. They're not for Joaquín Niemann.

 

48 minutes ago, MPStrat said:

So what this shows is that there is a tiny amount of lowering from p4 to p5.5 for both — from p5.5 to impact…

 

Who has argued differently? I posted videos of DJ with right elbow measurement numbers. Almost everyone narrows up a little (adduction and right trail elbow bend) early in the downswing as the hips and chest rotate toward the target… then before 5 the right elbow (even in DJ) begins to expand.

 

DJ at 4: 108°, reaches up to about 112-113°, then at 6… is only about 51°:

 

 

The club looks like it's still high because it's so far behind the "chest pecker" but he's still widened his trail elbow quite a bit.

[MPStrat]

8 minutes ago, iacas said:

 

👍🏼

 

 

Suuuuuuuuuuure.

 

 

I don't see it that way. DJ's arms lower quite a bit too. It depends a bit on your definition of "lowering" of course, but my definition involves the amount of right (trail) elbow widening.

 

 

Much of the "lowering" in horrible swings takes place late, too. That doesn't say much. This guy did a lot of "lowering" late. Rotation early, lowering late (left).

 

 

Today, he had to FEEL like he lowered (by widening the right elbow) almost entirely before his body turned through. The right (after) is still him exaggerating it quite a bit.

 

Without a bunch of right side bend, he's not getting the club to the ball unless he stalls and chops. Which is what he's in the process of on the left.

 

AMG videos are for guys like this. They're not for Joaquín Niemann.

 

 

Who has argued differently? I posted videos of DJ with right elbow measurement numbers. Almost everyone narrows up a little (adduction and right trail elbow bend) early in the downswing as the hips and chest rotate toward the target… then before 5 the right elbow (even in DJ) begins to expand.

 

DJ at 4: 108°, reaches up to about 112-113°, then at 6… is only about 51°:

 

 

The club looks like it's still high because it's so far behind the "chest pecker" but he's still widened his trail elbow quite a bit.

 

Im using the reference Manzella uses: the lead arm 

 

Widening is not lowering. They are two different concepts 

 

The reason why the lead arm is the best reference it shows the difference between widening and lowering 

[iacas]

Just now, MPStrat said:

Widening is not lowering. They are two different concepts

 

They're inter-related, and Milo wants less trail elbow widening.

 

Just now, MPStrat said:

The reason why the lead arm is the best reference it shows the difference between widening and lowering 

 

I'm not talking exclusively about lowering. The title of this topic is the AMG shallowing video.

[MPStrat]

2 minutes ago, iacas said:

 

They're inter-related, and Milo wants less trail elbow widening.

 

 

I'm not talking exclusively about lowering. The title of this topic is the AMG shallowing video.

The lead arm working down the the chest is lowering. This is the reference Manzella used and that I have used from my very first post in this thread. I have never said to narrow the trail arm for any reason. 
 

I don’t know how many times I have to say that my ideas are not Milo’s of GG’s or anyone else. I agree with them on some things and disagree on others. 
 

The difference between how much DJ lowers his arm down his chest vs Rory is dramatic 

[Red4282]

4 hours ago, Nels55 said:

Apparently the core tends to drift upwards as we get older which would explain why the majority of golfers are upper core.  Also there is a reason why guys are on the PGA Tour as they are very talented and more athletic then the average person.  PGA tour pros are actually mostly mid core I believe and I think that LPGA golfers tend to be more lower core but not sure on that.   

 

I am not any kind of expert on the core system but it is based on a lot of research by PhD's which may or may not be a good thing!  Anyway I don't see anything in the 'red flags' that your raised here.

This is where im failing to understand… swing like a pro by not swinging like a pro because you are not capable… huh? 

[iacas]

2 minutes ago, MPStrat said:

The lead arm working down the the chest is lowering.

 

So you just want to repeat yourself, even though I said…

 

7 minutes ago, iacas said:

I'm not talking exclusively about lowering. The title of this topic is the AMG shallowing video.

 

Okay, I guess. But trail elbow widening is closely linked to lowering.

Edited March 3, 2023 by iacas

[Red4282]

2 hours ago, MPStrat said:

 

Finally. Here you go guys. I’m glad Manzella cleared this up. You can see the difference between the two functional extremes in arm lowering of Rory and DJ. As you can see, these are very different ways to swing the club. 
 

 https://www.instagram.com/reel/CpVgIisApwo/?igshid=YmMyMTA2M2Y=

 

There is a dramatic difference in the amount of lowering between those two. No one has ever made the claim that “the arms don’t lower in the swing” that I’ve seen. Now there are guys like Xander and Abe Ancer who lower even less than DJ, but they are in his ballpark

 

I think there is also a correlation to the arms lowering more for a guy who is trying to draw the ball and a guy who is trying to fade it. 

[Red4282]

5 minutes ago, iacas said:

 

So you just want to repeat yourself, even though I said…

 

 

Okay, I guess. But trail elbow widening is closely linked to lowering.

That one way, but it can also widen when the left arm comes off the chest, not just down

[MPStrat]

5 minutes ago, Red4282 said:

I think there is also a correlation to the arms lowering more for a guy who is trying to draw the ball and a guy who is trying to fade it. 

Yes lowering the arms is one of the pieces that will keep the lead arm deeper which is a draw piece

 

[iacas]

22 minutes ago, Red4282 said:

That one way, but it can also widen when the left arm comes off the chest, not just down

 

You could also theoretically raise your left arm by widening, but nobody really does that, either.

[MPStrat]

23 minutes ago, iacas said:

Okay, I guess. But trail elbow widening is closely linked to lowering.

Not in the case of Rory and DJ.

 

 If you are a high handicap slicer, you probably need more of Rory. If you’re a single digit handicap hooker who EE’s with square hips you probably need more of DJ. 

 

This has been discussed at length already. The Manzella posts just illustrate the drastic difference in the amount of arm lowering between the two. 
 

I mean, even Manzella admitted there is a heck of a lot less independent arm lowering with DJ.  There is even less in guys like Ancer and Xander. 

[Red4282]

9 minutes ago, iacas said:

 

You could also theoretically raise your left arm by widening, but nobody really does that, either.

Yea, sure, whats your point though? 

[iacas]

36 minutes ago, MPStrat said:

Not in the case of Rory and DJ.

 

DJ still lowers and widens. Not "as much" as Rory… but he was also 40° more flexed than Rory. And by 5, he's widened 57° or so. It's only because his "chest pecker" is rotated so far forward does it look like his left arm hasn't lowered much relative to his body. But there are other ways of defining and looking at "lowering," too. How high are his hands? What would DJ look like if you rotated his body to where it is at impact, but left his hands where it was at the top?

 

36 minutes ago, MPStrat said:

If you’re a single digit handicap hooker who EE’s with square hips you probably need more of DJ.

 

I haven't said anything to that. So, nice straw man. And which exist more in the world? The slicers or the hookers?

 

26 minutes ago, Red4282 said:

Yea, sure, whats your point though? 

 

That widening the the trail arm primarily helps to lower the lead arm.

Edited March 3, 2023 by iacas

[MPStrat]

One thing that I was even surprised by in these Manzella videos is how late the majority of the arm lowering actually happens in pro swings. There is a tiny amount from the top to p5.5. I’m not convinced that small of an amount even needs to be conscious effort. I think momentum from the effort to maintain structure might even cause that small of an amount. 
 

Now the naysayers will say “millisecond” and “camera flash” but then wouldn’t you also need to argue that right bend should be initiated from the top since it starts to move in that direction so early in the downswing? I definitely don’t agree with that. 
 

[MPStrat]

5 minutes ago, iacas said:

I haven't said anything to that. So, nice straw man. And which exist more in the world? The slicers or the hookers?

I didn’t say you did. I did. Is that ok with you.? 
 

I don’t think there are many 18 handicap slicers reading this thread anyway, but if there are, run far away 😂 . You have wandered way too far into the weeds. 

[iacas]

5 minutes ago, MPStrat said:

One thing that I was even surprised by in these Manzella videos is how late the majority of the arm lowering actually happens in pro swings.

 

But of course… the arm loads (lead arm adduction, trail elbow bend) at the start of the downswing.

 

5 minutes ago, MPStrat said:

I’m not convinced that small of an amount even needs to be conscious effort. I think momentum from the effort to maintain structure might even cause that small of an amount.

 

Momentum is working the other direction at that point.

[MK7Golf21]

3 minutes ago, MPStrat said:

One thing that I was even surprised by in these Manzella videos is how late the majority of the arm lowering actually happens in pro swings. There is a tiny amount from the top to p5.5. I’m not convinced that small of an amount even needs to be conscious effort. I think momentum from the effort to maintain structure might even cause that small of an amount. 
 

Now the naysayers will say “millisecond” and “camera flash” but then wouldn’t you also need to argue that right bend should be initiated from the top since it starts to move in that direction so early in the downswing? I definitely don’t agree with that. 
 

 

The momentum would be in the opposite direction, lead arm into chest and club cocking. Pro's are also really good at staying in posture and lower in the the downswing. You've got a lot of forces keeping the club up, I would think a guy like DJ who does these to an extreme, you wouldn't see much even if he was putting a lot of effort into straightening. I'm surprised at how much we do see in 3d with his swing. 

[MPStrat]

12 minutes ago, iacas said:

 

DJ still lowers and widens. Not "as much" as Rory… 

 

They both widen. Nowhere near as much lowering. This is very obvious and silly to even debate. 

[iacas]

2 minutes ago, MK7Golf21 said:

The momentum would be in the opposite direction, lead arm into chest and club cocking.

 

Yup. "This is very obvious and silly to even debate."

 

2 minutes ago, MPStrat said:

They both widen. Nowhere near as much lowering. This is very obvious and silly to even debate. 

 

How is what I said any different than that?

[MPStrat]

2 minutes ago, MK7Golf21 said:

 I'm surprised at how much we do see in 3d with his swing. 

I am surprised there wasn’t more in Rory’s swing. Well, there is but it just happens much later than I thought. For the amount they talk about lowering the arms, the lead arm sure doesn’t lower much from the top of the swing until almost p6 in both guys. From there the huge difference between the two shows itself. 

[MPStrat]

1 minute ago, iacas said:

How is what I said any different than that?

you said not “as much”  — as in we are talking amount a small difference. We aren’t. Glad to see you agree and we can move on.

[iacas]

3 minutes ago, MPStrat said:

you said not “as much”  — as in we are talking amount a small difference. We aren’t. Glad to see you agree and we can move on.

 

$100 is not "as much" as $1 billion.

[Red4282]

44 minutes ago, iacas said:

 

DJ still lowers and widens. Not "as much" as Rory… but he was also 40° more flexed than Rory. And by 5, he's widened 57° or so. It's only because his "chest pecker" is rotated so far forward does it look like his left arm hasn't lowered much relative to his body. But there are other ways of defining and looking at "lowering," too. How high are his hands? What would DJ look like if you rotated his body to where it is at impact, but left his hands where it was at the top?

 

 

I haven't said anything to that. So, nice straw man. And which exist more in the world? The slicers or the hookers?

 

 

That widening the the trail arm primarily helps to lower the lead arm.

Im still unclear what you mean. By widening the trail arm, do you mean lose hinge in the trail elbow?

[MK7Golf21]

12 minutes ago, MPStrat said:

I am surprised there wasn’t more in Rory’s swing. Well, there is but it just happens much later than I thought. For the amount they talk about lowering the arms, the lead arm sure doesn’t lower much from the top of the swing until almost p6 in both guys. From there the huge difference between the two shows itself. 

 

Here is the thing to me you have to get the club in position to rotate more like pro's and hit the ball any good. Using the arms correctly allows you to rotate and stay into the shot better, as safely as possible. That's the end goal for me. I thought the AMG video did a pretty good job explaining how to get the arms working correctly which is going to allow you to rotate better. 

 

Watch DJ hit this little wedge shot, you will notice a little ulner and a little clockwise rotation to keep the clubbed back as his arms lower. He isn't using his body as much because its a little wedge so you can see it better. These arm moves allow him to use his body the way he does.

 

 

 

[MPStrat]

6 minutes ago, MK7Golf21 said:

 

Here is the thing to me you have to get the club in position to rotate more like pro's and hit the ball any good. Using the arms correctly allows you to rotate and stay into the shot better, as safely as possible. That's the end goal for me. I thought the AMG video did a pretty good job explaining how to get the arms working correctly which is going to allow you to rotate better. 

 

Watch DJ hit this little wedge shot, you will notice a little ulner and a little clockwise rotation to keep the clubbed back as his arms lower. He isn't using his body as much because its a little wedge so you can see it better. These arm moves allow him to use his body the way he does.

 

 

 

 

 
My main disagreement with AMG is that, historically they encourage an early aggressive downward motion with the hands which they call lowering. They talk about lowering your lead arm down your chest, and getting your hands under your shoulders as fast as possible. In this video they go into detail on how exactly they want this to happen. I was never a fan of how they described what pros do with their arms because it’s too generalized and I am even less of a fan now that I know most of the lowering doesn’t actually even happen until much later in the downswing.