New AMG Shallowing Video - Wow...

[MPStrat]

I have to say, I stand corrected. Milo was right and I was wrong. Neither of these players lower their arms very much until late in the downswing. 

 

For illustration purposes:

 

 

 

The arms have lowered the above amount from here: 

 

to here:

 

And Rory:

 

 

 

[Red4282]

31 minutes ago, MPStrat said:

I have to say, I stand corrected. Milo was right and I was wrong. Neither of these players lower their arms very much until late in the downswing. 

 

For illustration purposes:

 

 

 

The arms have lowered the above amount from here: 

 

to here:

 

And Rory:

 

 

 

To be honest both of them dont lower much at all. They do both lower though. Rory is a little more. In the pic of DJ at at the p5.5, you can clearly see the lead arm is intersecting the right armpit if you look at it from a 90 degree view of his chest. Or if the ball had a camera looking at his chest. At the top his lead arm is slightly higher. Rorys at the p5.5 is intersecting the chest. Lowering happens but its natural because you have to lower to get back to the ball. Its hardly a pro secret move.

[Fhbrook23]

47 minutes ago, MPStrat said:

I have to say, I stand corrected. Milo was right and I was wrong. Neither of these players lower their arms very much until late in the downswing. 

 

Really? Neither Rory or DJ lower their arms much from p4 to p5?  

 

So far this is the only accurate use of numbers showing how much lowering happens in these two swings.  In case anyone has forgotten the first image is when there is no side bend change from the top.  The second image is at p5.

 

 

[MPStrat]

13 minutes ago, Red4282 said:

To be honest both of them dont lower much at all. They do both lower though. Rory is a little more. In the pic of DJ at at the p5.5, you can clearly see the lead arm is intersecting the right armpit if you look at it from a 90 degree view of his chest. Or if the ball had a camera looking at his chest. At the top his lead arm is slightly higher. Rorys at the p5.5 is intersecting the chest. Lowering happens but its natural because you have to lower to get back to the ball. Its hardly a pro secret move.

According to what Manzella shared, Rory and DJ lower the same amount (like you said: not much at all) until right around what I would call “the release” - The big difference is DJ is more of the “shut face body drag” where Rory is more of an earlier traditional full releaser 

[MPStrat]

10 minutes ago, Fhbrook23 said:

 

Really? Neither Rory or DJ lower their arms much from p4 to p5?  

 

So far this is the only accurate use of numbers showing how much lowering happens in these two swings.  In case anyone has forgotten the first image is when there is no side bend change from the top.  The second image is at p5.

 

 

Are you saying manzella’s graphic is inaccurate? 
 

Remember Manzella is showing lowering of the lead arm. Not widening the trail arm. Two different things. 

Edited March 4, 2023 by MPStrat
Clarification

[Nels55]

4 hours ago, Red4282 said:

This is where im failing to understand… swing like a pro by not swinging like a pro because you are not capable… huh? 

LOL there is a lot of stuff that I don't understand also.  Anyway, the core system was invented by Dr. Wright and his star teacher is former tour winner Larry Rinker.  They teach a student to swing based on whatever core that the student tests as.  They do have tour player examples for each core including Rinker who is max upper core.  I believe that they might say that a student could use some tour player as an example but that is a bit different from what AMG teaches.  

[Fhbrook23]

52 minutes ago, MPStrat said:

Are you saying manzella’s graphic is inaccurate? 
 

Remember Manzella is showing lowering of the lead arm. Not widening the trail arm. Two different things. 

I like his graphics because they help me visualise what he's saying.  I've heard him say they are photoshops of the arms at different points then copied and pasted onto a single body image at p4 I'm guessing.  I'm sure they are as accurate as that process can be.

 

The images I posted also show lowering of the lead arm.  It also shows the lowering of the trail arm in degrees.  DJ's trail arm lowers more than Rory's and Sergio's.  Since both arms are on the same grip it seems likely the lead arm would lower with similar proportions.

 

I don't recall mentioning trail arm width. 

[tthomasgolfer605]

I'm at the point now where I couldn't care l less what 'elite' instructors say. I'd rather pick a great players brain to see how they think on the course. 

[ThinkingPlus]

7 minutes ago, tthomasgolfer605 said:

I'm at the point now where I couldn't care l less what 'elite' instructors say. I'd rather pick a great players brain to see how they think on the course. 

I might want to know how they think their way around a course, but I wouldn't ever ask them about swing technique.

[tthomasgolfer605]

6 minutes ago, ThinkingPlus said:

I might want to know how they think their way around a course, but I wouldn't ever ask them about swing technique.

I would never bring up such a discussion. Instructors are also guilty of, "this is what I do, so you should as well."

Edited March 4, 2023 by tthomasgolfer605
spelling

[ThinkingPlus]

2 minutes ago, tthomasgolfer605 said:

I would never bring up such a discussion. Instructors are also guilty of, "this is what I do, so you should as well."

Those instructors should be employed at McDonald's. 

[MonteScheinblum]

3 minutes ago, ThinkingPlus said:

Those instructors should be employed at McDonald's. 

That’s too good for them.  Conduct Time share seminars.

Edited March 4, 2023 by MonteScheinblum

[tthomasgolfer605]

1 minute ago, ThinkingPlus said:

Those instructors should be employed at McDonald's. 

Very popular ones do that. Mike Malaska and Shawn Clement are two examples. Their beliefs alone on the proper grip is way far off.

[Red4282]

40 minutes ago, Fhbrook23 said:

I like his graphics because they help me visualise what he's saying.  I've heard him say they are photoshops of the arms at different points then copied and pasted onto a single body image at p4 I'm guessing.  I'm sure they are as accurate as that process can be.

 

The images I posted also show lowering of the lead arm.  It also shows the lowering of the trail arm in degrees.  DJ's trail arm lowers more than Rory's and Sergio's.  Since both arms are on the same grip it seems likely the lead arm would lower with similar proportions.

 

I don't recall mentioning trail arm width. 

You say it helps you visualize… for the sake of me understanding what someone else is interpreting, what is the point of reference for the arm lowering? High point to low point? 

Edited March 4, 2023 by Red4282

[ThinkingPlus]

13 minutes ago, MonteScheinblum said:

That’s too good for them.  Conduct Time share seminars.

Or be forced to sit through them.

[Jeselnik]

10 hours ago, tthomasgolfer605 said:

Very popular ones do that. Mike Malaska and Shawn Clement are two examples. Their beliefs alone on the proper grip is way far off.

Proper grip should fit the swing.  The grip/swing choices available and advocated by Adams, Rowles and Tischler seem to be compatible. Clements grip aligns with his swing, which is probably best for ladies/ kids off the tee.  These are not statements of fact, just experience.

 

JNIK

[Fhbrook23]

10 hours ago, Red4282 said:

You say it helps you visualize… for the sake of me understanding what someone else is interpreting, what is the point of reference for the arm lowering? High point to low point? 

I may have missed it but I don't recall Manzella noting the point of reference on the arm he used.  I might not be understanding your question correctly.

[Rdailey9108]

12 hours ago, tthomasgolfer605 said:

Very popular ones do that. Mike Malaska and Shawn Clement are two examples. Their beliefs alone on the proper grip is way far off.

Clement is definitely a very strong grip but what's wrong with Malaska. Seems like he teaches a stronger lead hand grip (according to how your arms hang) and a neutral trail hand.

[MPStrat]

Not for nothing but I thought this was relevant to the discussion — a friend sent this to me so I figured I would share for those who haven’t seen. “Upper core” no more apparently 😂 

 

The player is Brian Gay. I’m really not big into using before and afters from one lesson to make judgements on how a change will affect a players game or whether that change is the right thing in the first place. 

But it does say one really big thing. If you’re working on your swing and you’re not seeing what you want, it might not be that you have the wrong “core” or that you lack the ability. 

It might be that you are getting the wrong information to make the changes you want to make.

 

https://www.instagram.com/p/CpMGsg2tbDo/?igshid=YmMyMTA2M2Y=

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Jeselnik]

.

Edited March 4, 2023 by Jeselnik

[MonteScheinblum]

He won 25 million the other way, this is chasing a look until he does something with this.  Chasing a look is the bane of the existence of amateur golfers.  
 

Changes should be based on ball flight improvements, not chasing more open.  I know that’s not what Brian and Dana are doing, but that’s what you’re suggesting.

 

Lets Change Furyk’s swing because it doesn’t look right.

 

I can make any golfer look better at impact in 5 minutes….their ability to hit the ball 6 months form now will be horrid.

Edited March 4, 2023 by MonteScheinblum

[MPStrat]

1 minute ago, MonteScheinblum said:

He won 25 million the other way, this is chasing a look until he does something with this.  Chasing a look is the bane of the existence of amateur golfers.  

My post wasn’t at all encouraging 50 year old tour pros to make dramatic changes to their swing. That’s not the point. That’s also his decision and not ours.
 

Again we are back to the question of why are we using pro swings as a model for amateurs if we are using the outlier pros whose swings more resemble a 5 handicap than what the best are doing. 
 

Chasing a look can be detrimental but it’s the amateur’s uneducated interpretation of what needs to happen to achieve the look that’s the problem more than the look itself.

 

If you have the right information you can achieve whichever look you want. There is nature and nurture in most every golf swing in the world. It’s up to the player to decide what’s best for them. 

[MPStrat]

25 minutes ago, MonteScheinblum said:

Changes should be based on ball flight improvements, not chasing more open.  I know that’s not what Brian and Dana are doing, but that’s what you’re suggesting.

 I’ll respond again since you edited after you originally said he was chasing a look. 
 

I am not suggesting anyone chase a look. I am posting in a thread about pros vs ams. People who are interested in having their swing more resemble what the best do are being told that they are upper core and need to swing like Chris Kirk and Brian Gay. I don’t think that’s always the case.  

[Red4282]

5 hours ago, Fhbrook23 said:

I may have missed it but I don't recall Manzella noting the point of reference on the arm he used.  I might not be understanding your question correctly.

Basically, how are you defining or interpreting the arms “lowering?” 

[Red4282]

Wouldnt “shallowing” be considered chasing a look?

Edited March 4, 2023 by Red4282

[MPStrat]

7 minutes ago, Red4282 said:

Wouldnt “shallowing” be considered chasing a look?

The entire AMG pros vs ams video series is about chasing a look 

 

[Red4282]

1 minute ago, MPStrat said:

The entire AMG pros vs ams video series is about chasing a look 

 

And quite honestly all instruction could be considered the same. I do have an honest question for anyone in this thread. In that brian gay pictures you posted… when you are that square at impact, and some EE, how are these players achieving less dynamic loft/shaft lean at impact? Only way i can see is more bowing of lead wrist? I was always under the impression the more rotated and less EE allows you to deliver less dynamic loft, because your not having to throw the arms to make up for the EE.

[Nels55]

1 hour ago, MPStrat said:

 I’ll respond again since you edited after you originally said he was chasing a look. 
 

I am not suggesting anyone chase a look. I am posting in a thread about pros vs ams. People who are interested in having their swing more resemble what the best do are being told that they are upper core and need to swing like Chris Kirk and Brian Gay. I don’t think that’s always the case.  

Cores are determined by testing.  So, if the system works then you will do best swinging a swing that works for the core that you tested as.  I believe that Rinker says that 80% of golfers he has tested are upper core.  This could be because he is testing a lot of golfers who have not done well with traditional teaching and are looking for something new to try.  Also age could be a factor.  Anyway I think that the core that a person is assigned to can be changed by making physical changes to the body by working our or whatever.  

 

At any rate the point of the core system is to test a golfer and determine their core and then develop their swing based on their core.  The comparison with some pro's swing is just window dressing.  

[MPStrat]

8 minutes ago, Nels55 said:

Cores are determined by testing.  So, if the system works then you will do best swinging a swing that works for the core that you tested as.  I believe that Rinker says that 80% of golfers he has tested are upper core.  This could be because he is testing a lot of golfers who have not done well with traditional teaching and are looking for something new to try.  Also age could be a factor.  Anyway I think that the core that a person is assigned to can be changed by making physical changes to the body by working our or whatever.  

 

At any rate the point of the core system is to test a golfer and determine their core and then develop their swing based on their core.  The comparison with some pro's swing is just window dressing.  

 
Yes I’ve read all of this, Nels.. I don’t know man, sounds a little sketchy 😂 

[MPStrat]

14 minutes ago, Red4282 said:

And quite honestly all instruction could be considered the same. I do have an honest question for anyone in this thread. In that brian gay pictures you posted… when you are that square at impact, and some EE, how are these players achieving less dynamic loft/shaft lean at impact? Only way i can see is more bowing of lead wrist? I was always under the impression the more rotated and less EE allows you to deliver less dynamic loft, because your not having to throw the arms to make up for the EE.

One of the ways to get shaft lean with EE and no rotation is by sliding the lead hip way out past the lead ankle and pulling the hands forward. Not the most ideal IMO.