New AMG Shallowing Video - Wow...

[iacas]

2 hours ago, Red4282 said:

Forgive me but Ive gone back 15 pages and have not found such video. You mind posting again?

 

Not quite far enough. February 18. 😄

[Red4282]

6 minutes ago, iacas said:

 

Not quite far enough. February 18. 😄

Ok yea that is totally not the same thing im talking about. Thats an angle that is based on a viewpoint looking straight downward on the spine angle. What im talking about would be the angle with a viewpoint 90* or perpendicular off of that. 
 

[iacas]

15 minutes ago, Red4282 said:

Ok yea that is totally not the same thing im talking about. Thats an angle that is based on a viewpoint looking straight downward on the spine angle. What im talking about would be the angle with a viewpoint 90* or perpendicular off of that. 

 

It's not based on a "viewpoint" of anything. It's the angle between the spine, the lead shoulder, and the lead arm. It's almost exactly what you said and drew:

 

13 hours ago, Red4282 said:

the measurement and angles id like to see is this, down the shoulder line to the shoulder (fulcrum), down the arm.

 

[PracticeSwinger]

7 hours ago, Nard_S said:

The best nugget out of this topic for me comes when AMG says in passing that most pro's attain external shoulder position by end of back swing. I don't do this and when you consider the whole throw hands early & fast issue, this really becomes important. So I applied this by setting a preset external shoulder at beginning of P4. When I do this, this whole thing works all too well. I've always knew the power of loaded shoulder but never saw it as imperative it happens early. Now I get it. This is a matching part to early throw and extended left tilt. Maybe this is a nothing burger to many but it changes a lot for me. Cheers.

Good take - and as an aside, I'm maybe mistaken but it seems most elite swings are efficient because they sync everything up 'when we have time': body structure, arms, wrists, pressure into the ground... it allows for a good sequence, beforehand, for when we don't have much time to consciously do anything

[Red4282]

27 minutes ago, iacas said:

 

It's not based on a "viewpoint" of anything. It's the angle between the spine, the lead shoulder, and the lead arm. It's almost exactly what you said and drew:

 

 

Maybe im not explaining myself very well. Let me see how i can try to explain it better.

[iacas]

6 minutes ago, Red4282 said:

Maybe im not explaining myself very well. Let me see how i can try to explain it better.

No need from my end.

[Red4282]

10 minutes ago, iacas said:

No need from my end.

Well aint you a hoot. For anyone else who may be interested…

 

This is me in my kitchen, so not the best visualization but when i think of “arms lowering, Im referring to this motion. Arms pinned across my chest (as much as possible lol) at shoulder level, just standing straight up (not in a golf posture):

 

Now, they drop down, not unpinning lead arm at all:

 

 

Side view:

 

 

 

Also notice this doesnt change the hinge in my trail elbow at all.
 

Then there is this motion, keeping lead arm at shoulder height, but unpinning lead arm. Standing straight up and down it seems as an outward movement, not a downward movement.

 

 

side view:

 

 

Notice how the trail elbow loses its hinge by alot. 
 

This is why I dont think your angle measures drop correctly. Arms coming off the chest would increase your angle of measurement, when i just showed how that movement can happen without arms dropping at all. Now if Im in a golf posture, with front bend it would definitely appear that way. 
 

Id like to see this: If a camera rotated all the way around the swing face on to the chest (90* of spine angle), what is the real amount of drop (i know there is some, i just think its much smaller than is being discussed). Just for example top of backswing, lead arm intersects trail shoulder.

 

 

In a simulated p5.5 position, the camera would be on the ground looking up. It would see something like this: lead arm intersecting armpit area.

 

 

I hope that clears what im trying to illustrate,  if not I give up lol

[MPStrat]

29 minutes ago, MtlJayMan said:

I'm maybe mistaken but it seems most elite swings are efficient because they sync everything up 'when we have time': body structure, arms, wrists, pressure into the ground... it allows for a good sequence, beforehand, for when we don't have much time to consciously do anything

The vast majority of golfers who have a gap at p6 created that problem before the downswing even started. There is a low ceiling for amateur golfers who are trying to correct that problem in the downswing. It’s not just the that there isn’t enough time, it’s what the body has to do from that point to band aid the problem. 
 

. 
 

 

[MPStrat]

This is lowering to me. It’s a down and deep move. This is why I believe it’s actually easier to be stuck if you’re intentionally dropping the lead arm down the chest in the downswing. 

[Golfbeat]

5 minutes ago, MPStrat said:

The vast majority of golfers who have a gap at p6 created that problem before the downswing even started. There is a low ceiling for amateur golfers who are trying to correct that problem in the downswing. It’s not just the that there isn’t enough time, it’s what the body has to do from that point to band aid the problem. 
 

. 
 

 

 

So what problem have they created before the down swing?

Edited March 7, 2023 by Golfbeat

[Red4282]

10 minutes ago, MPStrat said:

This is lowering to me. It’s a down and deep move. This is why I believe it’s actually easier to be stuck if you’re intentionally dropping the lead arm down the chest in the downswing. 

Thats what it is to me as well, but seems to be confusion, it is possible to abduct/adduct without the arm lowering or raising.

[MPStrat]

6 minutes ago, Golfbeat said:

 

So what problem have they created before the down swing?

The arms get too far behind to put it simply. That gap at p6 look wasn’t from a bad downswing sequence, it was because of the backswing. Though it will look like they did some wild move with their lower body in transition, that’s not actually what happened. 

 

You can say it a number of ways. There are 2 main issues, too much depth and or not enough width.  

They pull the arms across their body. They over adduct the lead arm. They over bend the trail elbow. The right arm gets too far behind the body. They don’t keep their arms in front of them enough in the backswing.  

[GungHoGolf]

11 hours ago, Red4282 said:

So there is shoulder adduction/abduction and shoulder extension/flexion. Both result in the lowering raising of the arm.

This, plus the pics you just posted, might be part of the confusion between you and @iacas  

 

When Gears or instructors in general refer to shoulder ab/adduction, they’re more specifically referring to horizontal ab/dduction, which does not raise or lower the arm. See diagram below.

 

I’ve given some thought to the latest AMG dj/rory video, and I can’t think of a better way to measure lead arm lowering in relation to the body. But I’m keeping an open mind on the subject - it’s not a trivial thing to measure. 

 

[Hilts1969]

9 minutes ago, Red4282 said:

Thats what it is to me as well, but seems to be confusion, it is possible to abduct/adduct without the arm lowering or raising.

Down is down. Independent lowering of the arms is pretty straightforward. It needn't mean down the chest. 

 

The arms lose height  the direction is dependent on the back swing and what shape you are hitting.

 

I can't believe after the amount of pages people are trying to get a definition of what down/lowering means.

[MPStrat]

10 minutes ago, Hilts1969 said:

Down is down. Independent lowering of the arms is pretty straightforward. It needn't mean down the chest. 

That’s how Justin Rose describes it 

 

 

[Red4282]

6 minutes ago, Hilts1969 said:

Down is down. Independent lowering of the arms is pretty straightforward. It needn't mean down the chest. 

 

The arms lose height  the direction is dependent on the back swing and what shape you are hitting.

 

I can't believe after the amount of pages people are trying to get a definition of what down/lowering means.

Well I cant believe it either because some are using an abduction angle to indicate lowering, and its just not that simple. We are in agreement. They do lower. Im just of the opinion, the down the chest part, is extremely small, at least what has been indicated in this thread. Especially from top to p5. 

[Nard_S]

13 minutes ago, Red4282 said:

Well I cant believe it either because some are using an abduction angle to indicate lowering, and its just not that simple. We are in agreement. They do lower. Im just of the opinion, the down the chest part, is extremely small, at least what has been indicated in this thread. Especially from top to p5. 

There's an AMG clip around that Pro's drop lead shoulder about an inch as one of the 1st moves. It's only inch but it's critical to start the de-coupling of arms to chest. A lead arm pinned to chest too long is not a good thing in it's own right never mind this whole topic.

[Simpsonia]

46 minutes ago, GungHoGolf said:

This, plus the pics you just posted, might be part of the confusion between you and @iacas  

 

When Gears or instructors in general refer to shoulder ab/adduction, they’re more specifically referring to horizontal ab/dduction, which does not raise or lower the arm. See diagram below.

 

I’ve given some thought to the latest AMG dj/rory video, and I can’t think of a better way to measure lead arm lowering in relation to the body. But I’m keeping an open mind on the subject - it’s not a trivial thing to measure. 

 

 

So I guess my only question about the latest AMG video is that they seem to be measuring what they call arm lowering as the Flexion/Extension from your chart, but measured in reference to the spine angle that GEARS is creating (mid-lower spine to pelvis as iacas was helpful enough to define). It really does seem like there's really two main angles for the spine at say impact (to vastly simplify a curved system), neck to bottom of thoracic spine, and from there to pelvis, and they are distinctly different angles, especially pronounced in someone like DJ or Niemann. It seems like side-bend and rotation might create some bias to exaggerate the degree when comparing to the GEARS spinal angle (the lower latter section) rather than measuring against the thoracic spinal section which might stay more static in reference compared to arm movement. 

 

Again probably all coming back down to individual feels of the instructors and definitions of what they are measuring against. Measuring against the lower spine angle might create a higher degree of "lowering", and measuring against the upper spine angle might create less of a degree of lowering (though still going to have some amount of lowering). The crowd that feels little to no lowering with the arms probably feels it in reference to their upper thoracic spine. The large amount of lowering probably feels it in reference to their lower spine. Talking about the same thing but using different reference/measuring points. 

[MPStrat]

Brian Manzella said that this is approximately the amount of lowering DJ has by impact.

 

 

 

It mirrors the image he posted as well as his demonstration on how DJ gets to impact without as much independent lowering. 

 

We’ve all said a hundred times, there is some lowering in the swing. I still haven’t heard anyone make the claim that there is zero independent lowering in the golf swing. 

 

And it makes sense if you take into account that his arms lift a ton in the backswing, there is clearly going to be some lowering. For example, Billy Horschel’s lead arm bisects his head at the top of the swing relative to his address position.

 

But lowering down the chest? There is very little lowering down the chest by impact let alone in early transition in this swing.

Edited March 7, 2023 by MPStrat

[iacas]

3 hours ago, Red4282 said:

 

Yikes. No.

 

3 hours ago, Red4282 said:

Then there is this motion, keeping lead arm at shoulder height, but unpinning lead arm. Standing straight up and down it seems as an outward movement, not a downward movement.

 

 

I don't think I've ever seen anyone do this. That's why I said it wasn't necessary from my side… I didn't see the value in it. The elbow is going the wrong direction here ("up" relative to your chest).

 

3 hours ago, Red4282 said:

This is why I dont think your angle measures drop correctly.

 

I never said they did. I think I didn't get what you were trying to convey, but I still that what you were trying to convey is still conveyed already by others, regardless of the angle you're trying to measure. Let's say it's across the collarbones or shoulder sockets and the angle of the lead arm… as measured from square to the shoulders/upper chest… that's basically the Manzella graphics.

3 hours ago, Red4282 said:

Id like to see this: If a camera rotated all the way around the swing face on to the chest (90* of spine angle), what is the real amount of drop (i know there is some, i just think its much smaller than is being discussed). Just for example top of backswing, lead arm intersects trail shoulder.

 

Again… I think it's more than you think:

 

 

2 hours ago, MPStrat said:

This is lowering to me. It’s a down and deep move.

 

Ah. That's your major misunderstanding. No, that is not proper "lowering."

 

2 hours ago, GungHoGolf said:

When Gears or instructors in general refer to shoulder ab/adduction, they’re more specifically referring to horizontal ab/dduction, which does not raise or lower the arm. See diagram below.

 

No, the "lead arm adduction" angle" is just the angle at the lead shoulder between the spine and the lead elbow.

 

In other words, if your arm is hanging straight down at your side, it's close to 90°. If you lift it up horizontally, it's the same 90°. Above your head? 90°. Pros tend to move it from about 80° at setup and impact to 60° at the top of the backswing or so (Rory is about 64°). WHILE the arm is moving up and down a little (obviously it's "down" quite a bit at setup, Rory's left arm gets quite high at the top, and yes, some of that is his 122° shoulder turn), and then back pretty "low" again at impact.

 

Measuring relative to the spine is as good a way as I can think of. You can turn but without raising your arms… your hands are by your belt at the "top" of the backswing. And they get back to that height roughly around impact, too.

 

 

[Hilts1969]

19 hours ago, MPStrat said:

That’s how Justin Rose describes it 

FullSizeRender.MOV 3.74 MB · 2 downloads  

 

Err.... hence the word needn't as opposed to not and he consequently says it is a feel and rotation moves everything out.

 

Do keep up old bean.

Edited March 8, 2023 by Hilts1969

[Red4282]

5 hours ago, Nard_S said:

There's an AMG clip around that Pro's drop lead shoulder about an inch as one of the 1st moves. It's only inch but it's critical to start the de-coupling of arms to chest. A lead arm pinned to chest too long is not a good thing in it's own right never mind this whole topic.

Yea im not saying keep that arm pinned. The arm unpinning is much more pronounced than the arm dropping, via down the chest. 

[Red4282]

3 hours ago, iacas said:

 

Yikes. No.

 

 

I don't think I've ever seen anyone do this. That's why I said it wasn't necessary from my side… I didn't see the value in it. The elbow is going the wrong direction here ("up" relative to your chest).

 

 

I never said they did. I think I didn't get what you were trying to convey, but I still that what you were trying to convey is still conveyed already by others, regardless of the angle you're trying to measure. Let's say it's across the collarbones or shoulder sockets and the angle of the lead arm… as measured from square to the shoulders/upper chest… that's basically the Manzella graphics.

 

Again… I think it's more than you think:

 

 

 

Ah. That's your major misunderstanding. No, that is not proper "lowering."

 

 

No, the "lead arm adduction" angle" is just the angle at the lead shoulder between the spine and the lead elbow.

 

In other words, if your arm is hanging straight down at your side, it's close to 90°. If you lift it up horizontally, it's the same 90°. Above your head? 90°. Pros tend to move it from about 80° at setup and impact to 60° at the top of the backswing or so (Rory is about 64°). WHILE the arm is moving up and down a little (obviously it's "down" quite a bit at setup, Rory's left arm gets quite high at the top, and yes, some of that is his 122° shoulder turn), and then back pretty "low" again at impact.

 

Measuring relative to the spine is as good a way as I can think of. You can turn but without raising your arms… your hands are by your belt at the "top" of the backswing. And they get back to that height roughly around impact, too.

 

 

I do believe the manzella graphic, at least the first one is illustrating the angle im talking about but its top of the swing vs impact but is a little misleading. Its not the same thing as top of the swing to p5, which is where the argument has been. 

[MPStrat]

6 hours ago, iacas said:

Ah. That's your major misunderstanding. No, that is not proper "lowering."

I’m sure you won’t be surprised to find out that I’m in full agreement that it’s improper. Absolutely is “lowering”, though. I think part part of what could make this discussion more productive would be coming to a mutual understanding of proper vs improper. Because I bet we might agree and find some common ground.
 

Would the picture Red posted that I referenced not be an example of the lead arm too low, too early? 
 

I think a lot of us who believe that arm lowering can certainly be done improperly and excessively have seen the Justin Rose video promoted by AMG and some others as an example of pros intending to lower their arms from the top and thought: “Yikes! No.”

 

It seems to me that the lead arm does not slide down the chest as he describes but in fact stays fairly high relative to the shoulder plane particularly in the early downswing. I think what AMG is saying is that the lead arm doesn’t stay high relative to the amount of lift that took place in the backswing. I think to some degree we are talking apples and oranges. 
 

Your thoughts? 

[Nard_S]

17 minutes ago, MPStrat said:

I think a lot of us who believe that arm lowering can certainly be done improperly and excessively have seen the Justin Rose video promoted by AMG and some others as an example of pros intending to lower their arms from the top and thought: “Yikes! No.”

Justin Rose has a great swing and there's nothing wrong with his drill.

[MPStrat]

3 minutes ago, Nard_S said:

Justin Rose has a great swing and there's nothing wrong with his drill.

Oh lord. You have to be kidding, right? Do you really think I was suggesting that his swing is not great? I guess I need to have a disclaimer on every post. 
 

I am not a fan of his drill at all. But as someone just mentioned anyway; it’s a feel. An exaggeration. I don’t particularly care what feel players use because of their subjective nature. 

[Red4282]

11 minutes ago, Nard_S said:

Justin Rose has a great swing and there's nothing wrong with his drill.

And he is trying to engrain a feeling, which as we all know isnt exactly reality.

[Nard_S]

3 minutes ago, MPStrat said:

I am not a fan of his drill at all

I actually used this drill & it does work.

I don't even know what the beef is here. 

It's pretty simple & you can test it in mirror, if you unfold the arm faster and sooner it will drop the club below plane. Shallow without any fancy manipulation other than get it done quick. I don't even think degrees or measurements matter all that much, just optimize the intent, like Justin, that would be enough.

[MPStrat]

27 minutes ago, Nard_S said:

I actually used this drill & it does work.

I don't even know what the beef is here. 

It's pretty simple & you can test it in mirror, if you unfold the arm faster and sooner it will drop the club below plane. Shallow without any fancy manipulation other than get it done quick. I don't even think degrees or measurements matter all that much, just optimize the intent, like Justin, that would be enough.

 
I don’t mean this negatively 

 

I honestly could not care less which feels you or Justin Rose like in your own swing. If doing the Justin Rose drill helps you shoot your best round, that’s great. It’s not for me at all. Once I try to separate what my arms are doing from what by body is doing the swing falls apart for me. The body freezes and the swing becomes overly arm dominant. I do not like to segment things. My body and arms are in unison, But that’s irrelevant to the discussion. We know that this drill isn’t what’s happening in reality and this is not a thread about feels. 
 

I’ll say this again and I’ll probably have to repeat it over and over. Justin Rose is one of my all time favorite players. He is a great player, ball striker and a great example for young men and women. Like Rory, his swing is insanely good. I have no issue with Justin Rose, his swing or what feels he likes to use in his swing. 

Edited March 8, 2023 by MPStrat
Disclaimer added

[Nard_S]

1 hour ago, MPStrat said:

 
I don’t mean this negatively 

 

 We know that this drill isn’t what’s happening in reality and this is not a thread about feels. 

 

Everything about the golf IS feels.

 

Feel is the language, the dialect the brain communicates to the body with. And the body talks back in feels. You can talk of degrees, angles , force & geometry, but you execute in feel. So even false to fact feels can be okay or even good. 

 

Edited March 8, 2023 by Nard_S