New AMG Shallowing Video - Wow...

[MPStrat]

17 minutes ago, Nard_S said:

No I have never said that, and I've been quite nuanced, even having defended Hogan & GG, to much mockery, all while praising AMG and also warning this is a bigger elephant than can digested easily. You object because it feels wrong then say you arguing data & fact. That's truly rich.

I have said my own feels are irrelevant to the discussion at hand.

 

You said the Justin Rose drill is correct because “the math says to unload it faster and sooner” — that’s not particularly nuanced IMO

Edited March 8, 2023 by MPStrat

[Nard_S]

12 minutes ago, MPStrat said:

You said the Justin Rose drill is correct because “the math says to unload it faster and sooner” — that’s not particularly nuanced IMO

It's not nuanced because it's fact that Butch taught Tiger 20 years ago & that you can demonstrate in a mirror in your own home. Further backed by GEARS and the high priests of data.

[Ex Blade User]

4 hours ago, Red4282 said:

Someone didnt sleep well! Lighten up, nobody is derailing anything, I just find his teaching methods unique. You also cannot deny that about 75% of each lesson is with no golf club and is focused on body movements. 

 

I mean is that what it takes for you to validate if they are legit or not? Ive never seen any of these instructors participating in this thread students hit a ball outside either but i dont doubt they are good at what they do.

Yes. I can make awesome practice swings without a ball and hit nice positions with a foam ball in my basement but that doesn’t mean I’ll do it on the course with a real ball when it counts. Isn’t that the point?

[betarhoalphadelta]

3 hours ago, Nard_S said:

Okay, I'm not in that much disagreement with what you state but a few things:

Feel is not a strong language of communication from one person to another. May not even be an accurate one from self to body, might have coke bottle glasses, but it is the medium the body & mind work in. Feel is machine code of body mechanics. You do not see your swing, don''t hear it, don't write or transcribe, the feed and feed back loop of all moves is feel. So maybe instead of proclaiming "feels are not real" how about figuring out how to see through that medium in 20/20 or better 20/10. 

 

I'd go the opposite here. The motor cortex is CPU operating the machine code of body mechanics. The mind is the compiler. Feels are the high-level language that we try to use when we're "programming" the swing.

 

Some of us are trying to build a swing using C++, others using Visual Basic, and probably some old-timers here using FORTRAN. Each of them different language or syntax, i.e. "feels", so in order to get to the same point we may be writing the code significantly differently, and hope the compiler can do its job alright. 

 

Which is what is so maddening about this entire debate. The AMG video is not even about the CPU running machine code. It's looking PURELY at the output on the screen. And yet everyone's arguing which feel is "right" to get that output. That'll depend which programming language we like, and is a very individual thing. The truth is whatever feel produces the intended output is "right" for that person.

[MonteScheinblum]

2 hours ago, betarhoalphadelta said:

 

I'd go the opposite here. The motor cortex is CPU operating the machine code of body mechanics. The mind is the compiler. Feels are the high-level language that we try to use when we're "programming" the swing.

 

Some of us are trying to build a swing using C++, others using Visual Basic, and probably some old-timers here using FORTRAN. Each of them different language or syntax, i.e. "feels", so in order to get to the same point we may be writing the code significantly differently, and hope the compiler can do its job alright. 

 

Which is what is so maddening about this entire debate. The AMG video is not even about the CPU running machine code. It's looking PURELY at the output on the screen. And yet everyone's arguing which feel is "right" to get that output. That'll depend which programming language we like, and is a very individual thing. The truth is whatever feel produces the intended output is "right" for that person.

This is why the false dichotomy of teaching positions versus feels debate.  
 

1. Teaching people to hit positions is a road to Charles Barkley 
 

2. Teaching people  feels with no understanding of what’s actually supposed to happen is a merry go round to no where.

 

You need to know what’s actually supposed happen, then personalize a feel to get you there.

 

All of the false dichotomy debates leads to frustration and bad golf.

 

arm versus pivot swing

drive for show, putt for dough

fairways and greens versus attack

distance versus accuracy

etc.

 

Those are all stupid and unhelpful debates that lead nowhere

 

It’s like asking how to lose weight, eat better or exercise more.  The obvious answer is both and you need to personalize both to get the best results. 

 

 

 

[MPStrat]

4 hours ago, Nard_S said:

It's not nuanced because it's fact that Butch taught Tiger 20 years ago & that you can demonstrate in a mirror in your own home. Further backed by GEARS and the high priests of data.

 

I agree with everything Butch says here 

 

 

[Nard_S]

1 hour ago, betarhoalphadelta said:

Feels are the high-level language that we try to use when we're "programming" the swing.

Guess you can interpret it many ways. "High level" to me is understanding the beneficial physics of swinging at or below plane. I equate that term with cognitive conscious thinking. Feels are not that at all. At least not to me. I think it's a language of sorts. It's certainly a sensory feedback loop that has a two-way channel to it. But I think it's a mistake to believe the frontal lobe controls it. 

 

 

 

 

[KD1]

5 hours ago, betarhoalphadelta said:

 

I'd go the opposite here. The motor cortex is CPU operating the machine code of body mechanics. The mind is the compiler. Feels are the high-level language that we try to use when we're "programming" the swing.

 

Some of us are trying to build a swing using C++, others using Visual Basic, and probably some old-timers here using FORTRAN. Each of them different language or syntax, i.e. "feels", so in order to get to the same point we may be writing the code significantly differently, and hope the compiler can do its job alright. 

 

Which is what is so maddening about this entire debate. The AMG video is not even about the CPU running machine code. It's looking PURELY at the output on the screen. And yet everyone's arguing which feel is "right" to get that output. That'll depend which programming language we like, and is a very individual thing. The truth is whatever feel produces the intended output is "right" for that person.

 

Meanwhile I'm using copy & pasted vba snippets from random internet sites... 🤔

[Red4282]

8 hours ago, Ex Blade User said:

Yes. I can make awesome practice swings without a ball and hit nice positions with a foam ball in my basement but that doesn’t mean I’ll do it on the course with a real ball when it counts. Isn’t that the point?

Obviously he is successful as people are going to him in droves. You dont get popular by being bad. But ok, not good enough for you, fair enough.

[Cactus Jack]

21 hours ago, Nels55 said:

You are correct about watching Dr. Kwon work with his students.  What I really wonder about is if the students can get the new swing to the course.  Based on my experience I doubt it.  Would love to be proved wrong though!

 

I am a Milo Lines student. I am a current member of his site, and have taken several in person lessons over the past two years. I ended up hurting my lead wrist, leaving the face open, and adding a lot of dynamic loft. I worked the foundations hard and started playing better golf. However, I haven't been able to master the foundations so have spent very little time working on the release pattern, or much of anything else for that matter. 

 

Enter Dr. Kwon. I've never taken a lesson, but I've watched many of the videos and do his drills. I now have one swing thought..."Let...it...GOOOOOOOOOOO!" Instantly, I'm swing fast, hitting the ball far, and most importantly having fun on the course. During a recent Be Better at Golf interview Milo was asked how Dr. Kwon would respond to the GEARS debate. Milo said Dr. Kwon would tell you to ignore everything and swing. 

[MPStrat]

To add to the discussion of shallowing,  independent arm motion, rotation, side bend etc 
 

Below are images of Rory that Brian Manzella posted yesterday. The black is p4 and the overlayed purple is p5.

 

I would be interested to see more pro golfers from this view.

 

This falls more into the forward/behind plane of motion more than raising and lowering. 
 

My main takeaway is the importance of the backswing and a golfer’s available options based on the backswing they make. 

 

AMG has several videos on depth and the lead arm pulling across the chest too much in the backswing. Jim Waldron has the arm swing illusion. Obviously this isn’t a new concept but I don’t think the backswing gets the attention that the downswing does from amateur golfers.
 

Making a poor backswing always comes at a cost. 

 

The more the lead arm pins in the backswing, the more early independent arm motion is needed to make a functional golf swing and it is often the case that no matter how hard you try to fire the arms and stall the body, they will never recover from this position. Many times at p6, it will look like the golfer misused the lower body, but the issue was created before transition. 
 

Chris Kirk would be a good example of a golfer who pins the lead arm as much as any tour player I’ve seen (nowhere near the death backswing a lot of ams get themselves into) but is able to repeatably recover by firing his arms and keeping his body a lot more passive in the downswing. (Please don’t make me have to type a disclaimer on how talented Chris Kirk is 😂 ; it’s not an attack on him personally or his game) - his rhythm is incredible to watch

 

It never ceases to amaze me how the outliers on tour have such cool matchups. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

. 
 

 

[Ex Blade User]

1 hour ago, Red4282 said:

Obviously he is successful as people are going to him in droves. You dont get popular by being bad. But ok, not good enough for you, fair enough.

Why is everyone so sensitive on this thread?

 

have you followed up with any of his students to see if they actually were cured?? 

[Red4282]

41 minutes ago, Ex Blade User said:

Why is everyone so sensitive on this thread?

 

have you followed up with any of his students to see if they actually were cured?? 

No, and I dont care. I can physically see the results from beginning of the lesson to the end. Whether they stick or not who knows. Im sure thats individual dependant, which by the way is the same for all instruction. Dunno how im being “sensitive”, I literally said fair enough…. Meaning you are skeptical. Thats fine. 

[MPStrat]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ai-xkLPX8Cs

 

Not that they are seeking my approval but since I’ve been labeled by some people as being an AMG  hater, I thought I would comment that this video is excellent. 

[Deadaimz]

Their shallowing video is quite excellent as well.

Edited March 9, 2023 by Deadaimz

[MPStrat]

7 minutes ago, Deadaimz said:

Their shallowing video is quite excellent as well.

I disagree. It’s probably my least favorite of all of their videos.  They have some really good ones, I don’t like this one very much. 

 

It’s all good if you like it, though.

 

[MK7Golf21]

2 minutes ago, MPStrat said:

I disagree. It’s probably my least favorite of all of their videos.  They have some really good ones, I don’t like this one very much. 

 

It’s all good if you like it, though.

 

what is a good shallowing video/instruction for you? 

[MPStrat]

38 minutes ago, MK7Golf21 said:

what is a good shallowing video/instruction for you? 

The AMG video is more of a lowering video.

 

Assuming that the golfer is chronically steep and wants to be more shallow. The first thing is to find the root cause of their steepness. They might be steepening the club out of necessity.

 

Also a steep downswing might be ideal for a certain type of golfer.  
 

But assuming that there isn’t anything egregious going on otherwise, they need to learn that they’re already doing too much. They have to learn to relax to allow the passive forces to work. Lowering the arms wont cure this issue and can often make it worse.

 

Shallowing shouldn’t be something that is forced. You have to allow shallowing to happen. You can try to make shallowing happen and there will be a change on camera that looks better and trackman numbers will be better, but it will not be repeatable for most because it is contrived. 

 

 

Tyler Ferrell also has some great shallowing videos on his site, but I don’t think you can truly get the benefits of shallowing the club until you learn to relax enough to allow it happen rather than forcing it. 

Edited March 9, 2023 by MPStrat
Grammar

[Deadaimz]

34 minutes ago, MPStrat said:

I disagree. It’s probably my least favorite of all of their videos.  They have some really good ones, I don’t like this one very much. 

 

It’s all good if you like it, though.

 

We know you disagree, you have made that clear.

[Nels55]

5 hours ago, Cactus Jack said:

 

I am a Milo Lines student. I am a current member of his site, and have taken several in person lessons over the past two years. I ended up hurting my lead wrist, leaving the face open, and adding a lot of dynamic loft. I worked the foundations hard and started playing better golf. However, I haven't been able to master the foundations so have spent very little time working on the release pattern, or much of anything else for that matter. 

 

Enter Dr. Kwon. I've never taken a lesson, but I've watched many of the videos and do his drills. I now have one swing thought..."Let...it...GOOOOOOOOOOO!" Instantly, I'm swing fast, hitting the ball far, and most importantly having fun on the course. During a recent Be Better at Golf interview Milo was asked how Dr. Kwon would respond to the GEARS debate. Milo said Dr. Kwon would tell you to ignore everything and swing. 

 

I have worked on Dr. Kwon's drills for a bit over a year now.  I got worse at first and then got a bit longer and my swing mechanics actually improved.  I have a much better shift to start my backswing and my hip movement is not longer terrible.  Not particularly good but a lot better then before.  I still don't have the re-centering move down very well but it is much better then before.  Anyway Milo's teaching makes a lot of sense to me and I have been doing a number of his drills the last month or two. 

 

I found this drill to be useful to get myself to a better 'y' impact position:

 

 

The swing thought of keeping the shaft parallel to the chest seems like one that might hold up for me while playing.  LOL we shall see if that is the case whenever the rain finally lets up for a day or two! 

 

Anyway, it seems that we are kind of coming at this from opposite directions I guess.  I don't think that you can go wrong with Dr. Kwon's teaching as his drills seem very adaptable for different body types and personalities.  I am not sure that Milo's swing will work for everyone...

[iacas]

Gee, @MPStrat, tell us you don’t actually teach golfers without telling us you don’t teach golfers.

[Red4282]

@MPStrat has been one of the most reasonable, respectful poster in this thread. I appreciate his open mindness and non bias. Dont some of you have a SAND TRAP you can go play in or something?

[GoGoErky]

6 hours ago, Deadaimz said:

We know you disagree, you have made that clear.

All because it’s something that doesn’t work for him 🤷🏻‍♂️

[iacas]

9 minutes ago, Red4282 said:

@MPStrat has been one of the most reasonable, respectful poster in this thread. I appreciate his open mindness and non bias.

Did I say anything about respect? Or how “reasonable” he has been? Does he teach actual golfers? I don’t think he does. I think some things he posts speak to that.

[Red4282]

2 minutes ago, iacas said:

Did I say anything about respect? Or how “reasonable” he has been? Does he teach actual golfers? I don’t think he does. I think some things he posts speak to that.

Just a bit weird to come to a competitors site and belittle its members. 
 

I also really despise the pretentious tone of “im an instructor, you are not”. I guess since you dont cook for a living, you should never complain when you get bad food from a “pro” cook, or that because you never cooked for a living you cant possible know how to cook some decent meals. My good ol grandma would put some pro chefs to shame but she never earned a cent doing it. 
 

If you want to counter with what mpstrat says, you should probably do with actual substance.

[johnrobison]

6 hours ago, MPStrat said:

The AMG video is more of a lowering video.

Isn't that because the club is already shallow at P4 and nothing needs to be done to shallow it from there? That's what I heard.

 

6 hours ago, MPStrat said:

They have to learn to relax to allow the passive forces to work. Lowering the arms wont cure this issue and can often make it worse.

For some, as a feel, sure. Muscles are all pretty active in the swing, though, so for many players a passive feel could have very bad results. Really just depends what's happening with a particular player.

 

7 hours ago, MPStrat said:

Tyler Ferrell also has some great shallowing videos on his site, but I don’t think you can truly get the benefits of shallowing the club until you learn to relax enough to allow it happen rather than forcing it. 

I doubt that AMG would have anything to say to contradict that Zach Allen video or even relaxing the arms shoulders. What Zach showed aligns with what AMG said - the hands/arms go down and not allowing them to go down is what steepens the club.

[RoyalTroon]

6 hours ago, MPStrat said:

Shallowing shouldn’t be something that is forced. You have to allow shallowing to happen. 

 

Leaving the club alone, which was nearly cropped out at the end of Allen's video, is the key, because anytime we deal in parts of a whole we are in for some long afternoons.   The desire to feel the 'jolt' instead of the stroke is poison.

[iacas]

4 minutes ago, Red4282 said:

Just a bit weird to come to a competitors site and belittle its members.

It is okay that you think that.

 

5 minutes ago, Red4282 said:

I also really despise the pretentious tone of “im an instructor, you are not”.

 

Sorry, bud, that’s not in there. There are plenty of lousy instructors out there. Being an instructor doesn’t make someone in any way better.

 

As it relates to this discussion though, theories can sound good, but teaching is where the rubber meets the road.
 

8 minutes ago, Red4282 said:

If you want to counter with what mpstrat says, you should probably do with actual substance.

Like this?:

 

36 minutes ago, Red4282 said:

@MPStrat has been one of the most reasonable, respectful poster in this thread. I appreciate his open mindness and non bias. Dont some of you have a SAND TRAP you can go play in or something?

 

@johnrobison’s post was good. The word “passive” especially combined with “always/never” style language is no bueno.

[MK7Golf21]

28 minutes ago, johnrobison said:

Isn't that because the club is already shallow at P4 and nothing needs to be done to shallow it from there? That's what I heard.

 

For some, as a feel, sure. Muscles are all pretty active in the swing, though, so for many players a passive feel could have very bad results. Really just depends what's happening with a particular player.

 

I doubt that AMG would have anything to say to contradict that Zach Allen video or even relaxing the arms shoulders. What Zach showed aligns with what AMG said - the hands/arms go down and not allowing them to go down is what steepens the club.

 

I agree

[RoyalTroon]

56 minutes ago, Red4282 said:

Just a bit weird to come to a competitors site and belittle its members. 

My good ol grandma would put some pro chefs to shame but she never earned a cent doing it. 

 

Not too far removed from tell us about your failing site without telling us about your failing site.  And granny could cook up a storm, recipes not necessary, only artful cooking.